I'm happy to answer any questions around this! We've been working on this since update since we launched the product last year, so we're excited to be able to share it today.
replies(43):
EDIT: site was down while I was checking this, the 11th Gen DIY edition is €829, so €130 cheaper than 12th gen.
Very exciting to hear there's an improvement in this generation. Is that improvement due to intel changes, or due to frame.work changes? Can you quantify the standby improvement for linux in watts or battery % / 24h?
Does battery life significantly change between processor models?
Congrats on the refresh launch!
This is the only thing stopping me from getting a Framework laptop right now. I'd pay a premium for it as well.
I was confused that all options had Windows installed...
You can still get to the DIY configure page through Product Story -> Pre-Order Now.
A better approach would've been:
"Your website shows "Starting at 959 for the DIY option, but when I click on it the base option starts at 1,049. Am I missing something or is this a bug, an explanation would be welcome."
And do anyone know if the bug in the HDMI card preventing it to go to sleep is still a thing / need a firmware update / is hopeless ?
I intend to keep it there permanently, which brings questions about durability, especially when carrying the laptop around.
I’ve been VERY happy with my Framework and am glad to see this update.
This disclaimer -from a company that picks their hw components none the less- is cold water to Linux in the desktop as any sort of "solved" problem
My experience on Linux certainly isn't flawless, but I have about as many issues whenever I'm handed a Windows laptop as others have trying Linux. Computers suck.
For the most part, on a full desktop, you can avoid most of the need for those, or buy a part that works better.
EDIT: I just realized that you cannot order this laptop with GNU/Linux pre installed. I was mistaken.
The kernel is famously backward compatible, upgrading during a distro cycle shouldn't be a problem. Yet fedora doing so is somehow exceptional.
[1] https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/wd-black-sn850-m-2-nvme...
All they make are Linux computers and they couldn't/didn't/wouldn't for some reason produce a laptop that just natively worked.
They should make this part available to existing users as a warranty replacement. It sounds like they've addressed a common complaint on their support forums.
The lid that flops over because of the hinge's weakness, and the absurd excuses made by company personnel (they claim it was designed this way "to accommodate opening the laptop with one hand," as if the people who open a laptop with one hand do not need the lid to stay upright) has been a great disappointment for me with this laptop. It is a design defect, not a feature, for the hinge to be this weak.
edit: apparently they're talking about this, so I guess we're stuck with the weak hinge:
Would you consider having someone on the team do a more in depth technical write-up of the work that went into the battery life optimization? I'd personally be very interested in reading that as a long time Linux laptop user.
- no Management Engine
- chips that don't turbo boost themselves into throttling
- not supporting a company with a toxic approach to business
I believe AMD outperforms Intel when you're targeting mobile performance/battery life, rather than "moar CPU" workloads. Though that might change now that Intel is using their own approach to performance cores. Still, given the last decade of Intel development, they don't exactly have my trust that they'll execute performance cores without serious hiccups.
After at least 10 years using Linux, I'm back to Windows.
The main issue I had was a very intermittent flicker on my screen when I'm on 144Hz. This happened on Wayland and X11. Almost every single distribution had this issue; OpenSUSE, Fedora, Arch (and derivatives), Debian, PopOS.
The only distribution where this wasn't a problem was Ubuntu which worked great for a while, but I updated and had a few issues. Also, realised after briefly trying other distributions that Snaps were really slow, so I just couldn't stay with Ubuntu. I tried disabling Snaps, but then the store broke and the non-snap store kept crashing (I generally install software via terminal but it's nice to browse and see what's out there occasionally).
Oddly, I've found Windows 11 mostly okay - at least I have no flicker at 144Hz.
And of course if the campaign fails then you can at least say you tried.
We're seeing some interesting outputs of that: https://github.com/brickbots/framedeck/ https://github.com/penk/MainboardTerminal
Looking at the DIY Guide [0] it looks like a lot of the laptop comes pre-assembled still (case, motherboard, screen, keyboard).
Is it more cost effective to do the labor on Framework's side to ship everything more tightly together in 1 box or could we see a 'DIY Pro' option that ships every component in its own box? (Maybe even at greater discount?)
Also, check out this Mechanical Watch [1] tutorial that made it to the front page of HN last week. I could definitely see an exploded assembly view like this being really instructional for Framework DIY-ers.
[0] https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Framework+Laptop+DIY+Edition... [1] https://ciechanow.ski/mechanical-watch/
In the configure page to pre-order for the 12th-Gen variant, there's a link to the 12th-Gen variant. Feels a bit weird and confusing to be pointed towards the shiny new variant, while shopping for the shiny new variant.
I would not say the hinge issues have been a "common" complaint. They've been the most common complaint that I've seen on Reddit, but still rare, especially once you factor in that people usually only go online to complain, and anyone with the hinge issue isn't going to hesitate, since it would be understandably annoying.
Also, anyone has recommendation for great affordable router with 2.5 gigabit ethernet ports for home lab setup? I've been searching for one but it seems only gaming routers include these ports. I prefer something more enterprisy (lots of options to tinker with like mikrotik or pfsense), but those usually don't come with 2.5 gigabit ethernet ports, instead they (the affordable ones) have plenty of 1 gigabit ethernet ports and a single sfp+ port. Or should I bite the bullet and go full sfp+ for home lab setup?
Better integrated graphics, especially with the upcoming line, if what AMD says holds true.
Non-toxic approach to business.
Dr. Lisa Su has done incredible things with that company, and I'll happily support a group that recognizes the need for experience in top tech positions vs. MBAs/Lawyers/Fund Managers/etc...
The modularity of some components can be assumed because they are industry standards, like wifi modules I suppose. Other components perhaps Framework have designed their own range of modules with a common form factor, but it must be very expensive to engineer a compatible mainboard in the same form factor with a different chipset, unless they are using an existing standardised design.
Also congrats on the update, I honestly wasn't expecting it. I'm seriously considering a framework laptop/motherboard for my next PC.
Mainly is just out of principle and voting with my wallet.
If you can run a 100% free software GNU/Linux distribution such as Trisquel on Framework laptops, that would be a definite buy for me.
It would be substantially more expensive for us to ship the laptop in a state that is less assembled. Packaging, labor for pack-out, and increased size and weight for freight all end up being quite a bit more than product assembly labor.
Thanks for sharing your insight, you've really clarified things. Ahem.
> especially once you factor in that people usually only go online to complain.
I've never complained about it before on their forums because once a few people let the company know about the defect, and the company gives their lame excuse for why they've implemented such a weak hinge (one handed opening!), there is no point.
It actually is nice to hear that your hinge wasn't weak as that might mean the warranty replacement nrp mentioned is worth doing. I do hope - the laptop has some nice features otherwise.
I want one of these so bad but if you end up doing a larger one shortly down the line i'm going to be really gutted.
Edit: also any plans for a blank ISO keyboard to match the blank ANSI one?
Laptop are throw aways. At the end of their life you recycle them and get a new one. The single problem I see with all these type of total upgradable devices is that you are still locked into a single vendor. Unless other vendors get onboard and you have competition, you are at the mercy of the single vendor's pricing and existence. How good is an upgradeable laptop when the vendor goes out of business and you can't buy parts?
https://frame.work/products/laptop-12-gen-intel/configuratio...
https://www.costco.com/hp-17.3%22-laptop---11th-intel-core-i...
You could probably see a flood of cheap Chinese motherboards or entire laptop knock offs.
It's part of a powered USB hub, and it works fine while the tablet is connected, but after disconnecting the tablet, the ethernet controller stays active, and about half an hour later my entire home network stops working. I had to disconnect the realtek adapter and reboot my network switch each time.
So, their problems are not entirely limited to mac.
However! Frame.work is Ina position to be an agent of change!
Even if you only want 4 usbc ports, get 4 usbc modules and don't be a baby about the 4x$9 for passthrough cards that don't even have electronics.
The usbc port inside the module bay is directly soldered to the motherboard. The module and bay serve as an important prophylactic to protect the usbc port from damage.
I would only use the real port inside as a backup when some module breaks or is lost or something.
It IS useful, and IS an explicit selling point (to me anyway) that you have the option to do something like plug a power supply or hub or dongle directly in there instead of it being a proprietary connector, but that doesn't mean do it regularly, especially not if the machine is being used in a portable manner where you're always plugging and unplugging.
I also can't shake the feeling that the hinge has loosened up a bit, but that's purely anecdotal.
My guess is this is both a combination of a slightly less stiff hinge combined with the taller 3:2 display, which leads to more torque being applied to the hinge when the laptop is moving around.
AMD is important for multiple reasons.
First, it shows that they listened to feedback. From way over here in the corner it seems like AMD has been the most requested feature for the Framework.
Second, many people perceive that AMD outperforms Intel.
Third, many people think it is extremely important to reward positive competition in the market place.
Eighth, it would truly, truly prove the upgradeability and versatility of the Framework. Then we could move on to imagining dual^H^H^H^Hquad-Arm boards and RISCV boards and other fantasies.
We are continuing to build the infrastructure and keyboards to expand into more countries though!
It's a shame, because it would have been a great moment to offer an AMD alternative.
¹=https://www.tomshardware.com/uk/news/intel-thread-director-c...
I'm honestly not even sure that there are any good ARM based SoCs to make a laptop mainboard from, but given what we've seen from Apple's development of their iPhone chips being integrated into laptop and desktop, I wonder if something similar could be done with other existing ARM CPUs from Samsung or Nvidia?
I get excited about different laptops occasionally...and then I remember that I won't have a trackpoint if I switch to a different brand, and I get disappointed. Literally happens every few months.
edit: Someone also brings this up on the OP: https://community.frame.work/t/introducing-the-new-and-upgra...
Right now, in Europe it's only available in a handful of countries (5 of 27). I'm in Spain, and I see I can spec a perfect machine and get it delivered just over the border in France, but I can't get the same thing delivered here just a couple of hours away, which is very surprising! My understanding was the single market & customs union etc should make going from 1 to N EU countries pretty easy.
Is this due to smoe regulatory issues, or needing to organize shipping differently for every country, or waiting to include an ñ key, or something else?
Right now, I'm very seriously looking at ordering one, renting a PO box in France and shipping the laptop here myself, which seems a bit ridiculous.
I agree with your skepticism. But, I don't agree that it has to be this way. Framework is giving another model a chance, and yeah, it may fail. But Frameworks are no /more/ disposable than any other laptop, so I guess I don't see a downside to at least giving it a shot if it's at an acceptable price and has a desirable feature set. You're right that the commodity hardware is cheaper, but I guess I can live with paying a bit more to try something else out and support an alternate model.
Is all about the upgradability, the open source aspect, sustainability, etc. Good luck if you want to open your Lenovo laptop and want to get it warrentyed for anything.
The battery life during light(7w)-moderate(12w) usage is approximately 5 hours.
Stand-by was the real issue in my opinion (it would drain 1-2%/hour). I got around this issue by setting up a swap partition and forcing hibernation after 30 minutes of sleep standby.
Apparently there are some new tweaks that were added to improve standby, but I am happy with where I am and don't want to change anything, so I can't speak to their efficacy.
I installed the new hinge, and it’s more rigid. I no longer have the problem of the laptop falling open when typing on my lap.
Highly recommend contacting support for the hinge issue if you have it to.
I actually like using Darktable. And I like using it on a good screen better. So even though I have a Linux laptop that runs Darktable very nicely (even with just Intel Xe graphics), I actually do a lot of photo editing on my 8 year old imac, which has a 5K screen, fantastic contrast & colors, etc. It shows me stuff my laptop is simply incapable of showing. Darktable runs like a dog on it but at least I can see what I'm doing properly and have enough screen real estate to actually fit the tools in the sidebar on the screen without having to scroll.
I'd love to see Linux laptop that is optimal for graphics, movie editing, etc. Mediocre 1080p screens are simply not good enough anymore. Apple stopped shipping anything non hdpi years ago. Even the cheapest macbook air has a decent screen. Decent contrast, easy to calibrate, beautiful colors and excellent dynamic range. Probably best in class by any objective measure. Why can't Linux users get screens that good? It's not like Apple doesn't buy their parts from the same usual suspects in China and Korea when it comes to screens and other things you need to build a laptop.
Elsewhere in this thread:
nrp: “Unfortunately, Realtek is the one and only choice for a USB 3.1 to 2.5Gbit Ethernet controller. We don't like it any more than you do, but there are several niches in the PC peripheral space where there is no alternative to using a Realtek part.“
Trackpoint is a bonus
I would argue one of the most glaring problems with selling Framework laptops was that they where "still" on Intel 11th Gen hardware which is often perceived as "not so grate" of a choice.
I'm sure they would love to also ship AMD based mobos (and Arm too) but it needs to be profitable, i.e. the additional sales gained through also supporting AMD must outclass the higher logistic cost as well as higher development cost. This might not seem like a big deal but from the little experience I have with logistics and things like maintaining Intel and AMD BIOS support, still having pressure to also ship a faster Intel mother board etc. I highly duped this makes any sense at this point in time.
Also, yes many people perceive AMD outperforms Intel, but many also perceive the opposite! Sure competition is grate, but Framework is not yet a well established company. Lastly I don't think they need to technically prove that upgrading to AMD or ARM is possible, the problem is not technology but logistics, resources (BIOS maintenance, testing, etc), supply-chains and potentially shitty contracts and practices by Intel (and other Companies).
So IMHO they need to first establish themself well, and then branch out.
Framework is suggesting many customisable options but the wifi antenna is behind the screen so it's not a seamless transition. I would be interested in a screenless framework (with keyboard or just the guts) if they simplify wifi.
So a WiFi module or Cellular module would be a definite buy
[1] https://www.theverge.com/22264792/hp-spectre-x360-14-laptop-...
Compared to the framework, the HP’s:
- CPU is a generation behind
- Screen has low PPI (less sharp), very low brightness, and is probably a TN panel, meaning colors will be more dull
- HDD which is a lot slower than an SSD anyway is 5400RPM, which is slow even for an HDD
- Battery is 14Wh smaller
- Webcam is 720p instead of 1080p
- Bluetooth and wifi is a whole major version behind
- Charging port is one of those old terrible barrel jacks that gets loose quickly
And the build quality is most assuredly not in the same universe. Laptops as cheap as this HP are built on razor thin margins, which means that manufacturers are cutting costs wherever possible. This gets you things like creaky flexy cases, loose wobbly hinges, chintzy keyboards, bad trackpads, and oddball bargain basement components with less than amazing performance.
In short it will be a lot less pleasant to use, even ignoring that huge gaps in the spec sheet. Models from other manufacturers that would be more comparable to the framework in specs and fit and finish are the M1 MacBook Air/Pro, Dell XPS 13, and Lenovo ThinkPad X1 Carbon.
A competitor would be very welcomed!whoever is going to take that market will have followers for a long time.
Just got a new one from work. It's literally in front of me right now.
Granted the laptop's build quality is questionable (the right hinge's case bulges higher than the left) and the trackpoint has a tendency to get stuck to one direction.
I bought an ASUS ZenBook earlier this year because as much as I like Framework's product, I don't want to give Intel another dollar after they bent me over a barrel for a decade.
Amazon might make it look easy but it really isn't (and Amazon is not available in all EU countries either!).
Logistics is more then just shipping, but also returns, repairs, availability, shipping time, shipping costs, where and how to keep stock. And this points affect each other, i.e. they might not have enough supply to sell to the whole EU market etc.
Lastly while there is a free marked in the EU if I remember correctly there are still some differences when importing things from outside into the EU depending on the country of entry. Like how to fill forms and which companies you can work with (for what prices) in given country.
Everything about this is as interoperable as possible, both physical and software.
Maybe no other vendor will produce a motherboard or keyboard, but it's not Framework's fault.
Second, The closest competing product to Framework is Lenovo not HP. (Despite the fact they look like a Mac's aluminum body, huge buttonless touchpad and black chicklet keys, with a Surface's screen aspect ratio.)
HP's customer is someone who would like a Surface or Mac but doesn't have that kind of cash, or just cares more about a distinctive look that isn't gamer.
Here's HP's customer: I got my mom a top of the line maxxed out HP because she will never care about upgrades or repairs or Linux or raw power, but she does care about the blingy rich bronze look, and I care enough to steer her away from Surface and Mac even though I don't care about the cost. That's HP's customer.
I WAS actually able to replace the battery in her previous Spectre (the sweet thin one with the funky hinges that looked like hoop earrings or wedding bands) to give it to my niece when I updated mom, but HP did not make that easy.
HP are premium-looking Chromebooks that run Windows.
Framework are user-serviceable open platform Lenovos.
"Why would I spend..." You clearly wouldn't, so don't. But I would. Why? goes like this:
I don't particularly care too much about AMD vs Intel, but a lot of people are asking for an AMD cpu motherboard.
Let's say Framework did not make a an AMD motherboard, but someome else did. Let's say that the only way to get a Framework was to either buy a whole Framework including an Intel mainboard I don't want, PLUS the 3rd party motherboard for $500 or whatever it is. I would rather do that, because I want that open platform. First, Framework would not make me buy the entire machine, they would let me buy everything but the main oard. But even if they didn't, that mainboard I didn't want is actually useable all by itself like a 900 horsepower raspberry pi. Or I could sell it, because it's useful to anyone else too. Or I could keep it as a backup in case I damage my prefferred board. That platform which makes all kinds of options possible, is valuable to me.
No one yet makes any such 3rd party mainboard, but the platform at least allows for it and makes it possible vs not-possible. I want that. That is valuable to me. I will pay a lot for that.
Unfortunately it seems the pendulum swings on this one at least a bit. Unless you want a flagship CPU, you'll wait a good half year to a year to get half as much choice of budget CPUs with rather extreme handicap (cache).
Also half of them are OEM only.
Try to find a good current gen CPU for a small to mid sized NAS in their lineup, it's not easy.
Would still really like to order one, but my patience is running out, don't have a laptop currently.
EDIT: I sound very pissed off. I know that it's hard to ship to lots of countries, it's just frustrating for me to not even have an estimation. Will I be able to buy it in 3 or 6 months? Or does it take another year? no idea.
This laptop has 150% scaling. What sort of display artifacts can you expect because of this? Go to a web page with a grid, with 1-pixel horizontal grid lines. Even though all lines are set to 1-pixel, some lines will appear thicker than others.
I blame Microsoft for this mess. Windows supports in-between resolutions (with display artifacts), and hardware manufacturers therefore manufacture in-between resolutions. Framework laptop is limited to what the display manufacturers put out.
https://www.thinkpenguin.com/gnu-linux/wireless-n-dual-band-...
They gave a IMO good overview of the difficulties of selling to a new country in a previous post :
> With our supply improving, you may be wondering when you can order a laptop if you’re outside of the US and Canada. We selected and are bringing up our worldwide warehousing and fulfillment partner, which is one very key part of the equation, but it takes quite a lot more than that to enable a complete experience in each country. Picking Germany as one example, we need German language keyboards, a Type F power cable, in-box paperwork and labeling in German, localization for the Framework website, support documentation, and checkout flow, support for local payment methods, calculation of Euro prices and taxes, accounting support for German income, creation of legally sound Terms of Sale, Privacy, and Warranty policies for Germany, CE certifications, a local Authorized Representative to back up the certifications, determination of HS codes and tariffs, an Importer of Record to be able to deliver duty paid, German-language in-time-zone customer support, reverse logistics and RMA support for returns and repairs, region-specific sourcing of off the shelf memory and storage, trial builds of German laptops prior to production, and back-end ERP infrastructure to tie all of this together. That sounds like a lot, but it’s actually a drastically simplified summary.
Of course I can _see_ the difference. The MBP looks really nice. But when I sit down to code or watch a movie on the MBA, I have pretty much the same experience as I do on my work machine.
1080p doesn't mean much if you leave out the screen's pixel density. There's a world of difference between a smartphone with a 5' 1080p screen and a 24' monitor with a 1080p screen.
I was also fine with lower resolutions for years because that was the only option. After using high-DPI displays for a couple years, I can't stand working on old low-DPI monitors for long periods of time. It's similar to how we were all happy with our mechanical HDD computers for years, but after using an SSD-based machine for a few months you can never go back to slow HDD-based machines.
It's not about seeing individual pixels. It's about the text clarity and reduced fatigue after reading text all day.
All I'm asking is if they will be releasing schematics/board views/whatever they are called for this laptop.
For a 24" 1080p monitor in typical desktop configuration I get screen-door-effect. I can clearly see the black grid lines between pixels.
Also, if you can see aliasing/stair-stepping on this test then your eyes could benefit from higher resolution:
https://www.testufo.com/aliasing-visibility#foreground=fffff...
Doesn't disabling anti-aliasing make things look worse? Unintentional and random jagged lines never look right.
Also, here's a better link for that: https://www.reddit.com/r/UsbCHardware/comments/qo6r3f/powere...
Lots of exciting projects coming up as we expand the Marketplace around the world and have more big launches on the horizon. Fully remote, and having every other Friday off is a nice benefit :)
Edit: I would pay for such a keyboard for the Frame.work; it would actually very much stimulate me to buy one! I really hope to see crowdfunding from people who just make a Frame.work part.
https://frame.work/products/display-hinge-kit?v=FRANFB0001
I believe this upgraded lid assembly is to address the screen wobbling during typing. It's a very thin lid and has a lot of flex, so the tighter hinge just transfers the force into the lid, causing it to wobble. Hopefully this will be eliminated with this upgraded lid.
0. https://twitter.com/FrameworkPuter/status/147913722834957517...
1. https://community.frame.work/t/lvfs-3-07-bios-availability/1...
https://media.ccc.de/v/36c3-10942-uncover_understand_own_-_r...
So the argument that Windows is somehow responsible for the death of perfect 2x scaling is a bit exaggerated. People just want more space and anti-aliasing is mostly good enough so that no one cares.
I'm mostly not going to be looking at a 1 pixel wide line at 4k on a 27" monitor. At 32" it might be debatable. Above that you're stacking them oddly (top+bottom, one vertical, or both), or you're down to one monitor and the real estate issue becomes a more pressing issue.
I'm at 'stacking weirdly' and my old main monitor (a "4k" monitor that is actually 3840x2160) is vertical, and angled on the corner of my desk. OS X defaults it to 1080p, which is too big a font for how close I sit to it. Full resolution is way too tiny. So I use 1440 (1.5).
The smallest graphics I use are in grafana, and those happen to be on my vertical monitor. I don't see any weird moire patterns when I scroll them, so if there's an issue with line width, it's well covered by things like not using #00 or #ff for all RGB color channels, which tend to show artifacts more overtly.
But then again, it's not just the hardware it's also the software, and Linux has struggled to keep up with Windows and OS X on some issues related to graphics. The saga of good fonts in X took an unseemly amount of time to sort out.
As for hard drives vs SSDs, I can hardly notice the difference in read/write speeds day-to-day. I merely use an SSD because it is more durable in the situation that I drop my laptop.
I demo-ed my frame.work laptop yesterday to https://www.matinfo-esr.fr/ which is a single buyer entity for all french universities and public research institutes (once hardware is in their catalog it's click to order for universities without administrative hassle).
They showed interest on the non obsolescence, durability and repairability aspect of frame.work since these features are part of their public service mission.
Feel free to contact me, my email is on the website listed on my HN profile
As for the display, for a laptop supposedly intended to last years, every human interface component should be the best available option. The ergonomics are important for a long lived device. It shouldn't become problematic just because the owner aged. Otherwise the laptop ends up the same as any other where the owner tosses it after it becomes uncomfortable to use. All the benefits of modularity are lost if it ends up in a landfill.
I want to throw my money at you, but I can't because the laptop is not available for shipping to the country I live in.
But I have to wonder what the market for this is? The primary use case I see for something like this is a gaming laptop, which this is just nowhere near being suitable for.
Outside of that use case, for the vast majority of compute workloads is being able to upgrade really a need? I have 2 laptops (well technically 3 but I don't count my work one really). A gaming laptop and my Mac as my primary computer outside of gaming. I tend to upgrade my Mac maybe... 4 or 5 years. Maybe even more than that. My Mac I got in 2019 and feel no need to upgrade anything in it.
My gaming laptop on the other hand... If I had the ability to upgrade that I would likely upgrade parts every year or 2... like a good a gaming desktop.
What am I missing here outside of the excitement of an upgradeable laptop? I don't want to diminish the work on that, I am just unclear the use.
Using your thumb to control the trackpad works better on Mac laptops because the Force Touch trackpad allows you to press anywhere to click. Most PC laptops have a "diving board" click mechanism which means it gets progressively harder to click the further you are from the bottom, and clicking near the top is impossible. Also, Mac laptops position the top of the trackpad closer to the keyboard than other laptops I've seen.
You can use tap-to-click as a work-around for being unable to click the top of the trackpad, but I find tap-to-click less usable for other reasons.
Looks like it can be charged from any USB-C port you install in it.
Much better than my work-assigned ThinkPad, which only allows charging through one specific port. As if everyone on the planet has their wall plug in the same location.
The original claim is that turning off anti-aliasing would make things look better, and not that it looks bad but not that bad.
Even in high res displays, isn't it true that anti-aliasing makes things look better?
Not the GP, but here's my reason:
For dGPUs, I strongly prefer AMD over nVidia because of Linux driver support. In recent years, most laptops with an AMD dGPU have AMD CPUs.
It's possible that my calculus will change in the next few years. E.g., if any of these things come to market:
- good laptop with Intel CPU and AMD dGPU
- AMD CPU with a fast iGPU. (I know these are in the pipeline, but I'm waiting for benchmarks.)
- Intel's upcoming laptop iGPUs / dGPUs perform well and have good Linux drivers.
- nVidia's efforts to open-source parts of their Linux drivers address my personal pain points.
I thought the whole point of the E.U. was to break down those cross-border paint points. Or is it still a work in progress? Can an E.U. person say if this is going to change?
If I ever need to buy a laptop this would be a huge feature for me, I would love if they still made 4:3 displays for desktops, it's so much better for the triple-wide setup I prefer, especially on the sides.
Not really, they are among the rare laptops to still offer S3 for Linux.
And the X1 Fold is a technical marvel (working on Linux support right now, if I'm successful it may become my next toy device to try to use Linux on as a daily driver)
> Framework seems uniquely positioned to fix this though. Someone just needs to do a compatible top cover that takes Thinkpad keyboards.
This. I will buy one as soon as they make a thinkpad like keyboard [+] or the possibly to disassemble and mount a genuine Thinkpad keyboard.
+ : A keyboard qualifies as a "thinkpad keyboard" if has all of the following:
- PageUp above Left, PageDown above Right: to me, that's the most important thing ever!
- PrintScreen between right Alt and right Ctrl: very important too
- Delete above Backspace
- A trackpoint between the {G,H,B} keys with 3 buttons below the Spacebar: I'm not a trackpoint fanatic but I appreciate the precision it offers when I need it, and badly felt its absence when I tried a macbook (no, can't do!)
I fully understand I'm a vanishing minority, But trackpoint is such a productivity booster for me, and makes such amazing use of space in a laptop format, that it's a must-have (and again, I fully understand that those who don't use Trackpoint will have no comprehension of what am I going on about; I'm a grouchy quirky old man :).
Then there's other little things that may or may not be trackpad related - small function keys, lack of standard home/end/insert/del/pgup/pgdown cluster, and the collapsed arrows which I don't even understand - you have the room, it's right there, nothing is using it... why is everybody making up and down arrows functionally unusable (I want to blame Apple, but as Obi Wan said - who's the bigger fool, the fool, or the fool that follows :)
I have a MacBook and I don't see the kind of display artifacts that I mentioned (grid lines set to same pixel width appearing to have different widths) on a MacBook. Why is that? I have also tried the same test on nearly every Windows laptop at BestBuy, and every Windows laptop that does not have scaling set to either 100% or 200% has this artifact. Even 300% scaling has this artifact. What is Apple's magic that Microsoft has not been able to replicate?
mt8195 Chromebooks should appear soon too, and they are even faster than the mt8192. Mainlining activity is also occurring for this SoC.
Some other part will fail in the future, or I'll spill another cup of coffee, and when that happens all I need to worry about is swapping out the affected parts. And that's great compared to my previous alternatives with an XPS, which was basically to buy a brand new laptop.
I would happily drop $2500 CAD on a framework if an OLED screen became available but I sincerely doubt it is something easy for them to source. That said, having a physicaly Canadian French keyboard is a huge plus, thanks Frame.Work. Oh well, choices to be made.
I have heard of these things before but I am not quite sure what the possibilities are. Do you have a link that can summarize what this actual means in terms of security concerns?
This so much!!
I miss PageUp and PageDown there so much I refuse to buy anything but thinkpads right now.
The last alternative brand was Dell, which adopted the stupidly huge Left and Right arrows, and that's even seen on customer line Lenovos now :(
That being said I'm glad to see they are following through on the things they promise like upgradable cores. In theory I take it this means if you currently have a framework laptop you can just buy the compute core and upgrade.
Really happy to hear this bit since it's my main concern when buying a new laptop. My 2 other questions - how long does the battery last, and how is overall build quality?
https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-apple_a14_bionic-v...
Meanwhile I am wondering why there aren't many third party mods for the framework around. Would it be feasible to design a trackpoint keyboard (if you figure out how to put it in the profile) ? Does it connect via USB or alike internally?
https://www.microsoft.com/buxtoncollection/detail.aspx?id=12...
and a paper: https://www.microsoft.com/buxtoncollection/a/pdf/Zhai%20scro...
https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-apple_a14_bionic-v...
I've got to say, as long as these things are being produced I'll never go back. They are just too good and I cannot recommend them highly enough. One of the things that didn't occur to me before I bought it was that _because_ of the modular design I can switch the side the power port is on. That may not seem like much but it was a revelation the first time I sat on the couch and thought "huh I really wish this was over on that side....wait a minute!".
I've also had absolutely no problems with NixOS on my machine, even my apple earbuds easily connect via bluetooth, something that I never quite got working on my macbook.
10/10 This is damn close to my dream laptop and I'm excited a new version is on the way.
But yeah, being able to swap those ports is great. I'm feeling the pain of having only 1 hdmi out on my laptop and the ability to just add one on sounds amazing.
For reference, on a Intel 11th Gen Lakefield (Lenovo X1 Fold), using a Vanilla Windows 11 Pro with the non-Lenovo Intel GPU driver downloaded from Intel Driver & Support Assistant, given the results of powercfg /sleepstudy I get a 6% of drain for 9h54 min (so about 10h) therefore 0.6%/hour in "disconnected" (no wifi activity) S0ix standby.
Before, with the official Lenovo driver, it was 0.5%/h (4h: 2% drain). I was hoping to get better results, but this isn't so bad with about 0 optimization!
S0ix has gone a long way, in both Linux and Windows.
The vast majority of that list has nothing to do with laws, but with physical requirements (keyboard and power plug), payments (not standardized beyond bank transfers), localization, and logistics.
Really like the laptop though, and it's a close contender when it's my time to upgrade... :)
It looks "perfect" because of a combination of anti-aliasing and high density. But zoom in on a repeating pattern of 1dp lines, and you will see that some are aliased and some are not if your display's density is not an integer multiple of 160dpi (mdpi).
But Android can do this everywhere because everything draws to a Skia canvas under the hood (well, HWComposer/SurfaceFlinger, but basically Skia). Desktop operating systems don't have the same luxury. MacOS and Gnome render at 2x and downscale the entire frame, which produces decent results on high-density displays but look blurry otherwise. I have no idea what Windows does but it sounds like it's a mess.
Just because the BIOS says so doesn't mean it will work.
On some old Dells, the S0 implementation in the BIOS was just so broken it straight couldn't work, even in Windows. What saved the game was Microsoft carefully considering such scenarios and checking the battery budget: if S0 was draining the battery too fast for the computer to awake in a usable state (like, with enough power to at least boot...) it would give up on S0 and go S4 "hibernate" instead.
In Linux this is now called Hybrid Sleep (S0+S4) but I don't think it existed back when I was in university. Finding a working ACPI S3 was hard.
On thinkpads, as explained above, a working S3 is just sheer luck as Intel 11th gen shouldn't even support S3. On the 12th gen, it sure doesn't. I would be curious to know if S3 works with Linux on a X1 nano Gen2 (12th gen)
It just comes down to suppliers, who aren't serving customers outside of select markets for whatever reason.
Commendable. Very cool.
The difference in resolution is immediately obvious, but once I start working I forget that the displays have a different resolution.
Things like aspect ratio are much more important, and I think that 3:2 is the best aspect ratio for work. 16:9 and even 16:10 has always felt a bit cramped in the vertical, 3:2 feels perfect.
Edit: A small but nice design feature is the light that comes on to imply whether the usb-c port is charging properly. Coming from a mac that removed this feature when usb-c charging was introduced, this is a huge luxury.
The features are great but my complaint was about quality control. My T460s has had every single part but the chassis replaced, some multiple times, and still failed. A new T14s had to have the keyboard replaced because it randomly missed keystrokes. It then started having the screen randomly start flickering after resume. A new X1, top of the line 4K spec, has the internal screen randomly lose sync. The days of Thinkpads as dependable machines seem gone.
For people that need to use their devices on the go, I think it's a no brainer to prefer a Ryzen 6000 vs Intel.
The RDNA2-based Radeon 680M iGPU also significantly outperforms the (admittedly, much improved) Intel Xe iGPUs in 3D rendering. In synthetics, the new Radeon iGPUs are going head to head with Nvidia 1650 Max-Q dGPUs. This probably doesn't much matter if you aren't doing any gaming, but if you are, it means you can play most modern titles reasonably on the road in a thin and light form factor without giving up any battery life when you aren't.
I think a frame thick enough for PCB + Chocs would then allow both a premium mechanical keyboard in a standard shape, as well as allowing for swapping this out for whatever more niche arrangements.
Whereas, for a thin, non-mechanical keyboard, the manufacturing cost would be too high to be feasible for anything but standard, presumably.
If you want something that uses less space on the desk, there used to be some 24" 4k displays which were acceptable, even though the DPI is slightly too low on them for 2x.
So while the 2x scaling worked out great for laptops and iMacs, there's unfortunately only very limited options for external displays...
I believe it's all due to the large hardware and firmware changes.
Take for example USB-C: we don't know yet how to make study ports. My X1 had its motherboard replaced due to a dead port.
Or look at ACPI S0ix: it's only since last year that it's become comparable to S3 in power consumption (and S3 is no longer officially supported since Intel 11th gen)
The keyboard too changed: the layout is the same as the xx30 series, but there's less travel.
Likewise, the screens are now 2k or 4k with thinner bezels, and intel HUD ("Xe graphic") is quite different from the previous generations: even if it's handled by the same i915 driver on Linux, GUC/HUC are more important, and disabling PSR no longer makes sense.
Change is constant, but I believe pre pandemic and post pandemic Thinkpads are very different beasts.
But I don't just have my own innate cynicism to go on here! The framedeck project write-up actually contains this disclosure:
As they were preparing this documentation release, they emailed me to see if I'd be interested in a collaboration of sorts. They would provide one of their laptops and some additional modules for me to build something unique with the only condition being that I released the designs for public use.
Goodness, people are touchy.
I am super on the fence between this and an arm mac - this is super customizable but the arm chips in the air are silent — no fan.
Even if you want a flagship CPU; e.g. see the newest 5xxx series Threadrippers which were only released after a year and half and even then they are only available in overpriced e-waste systems from Lenovo where the CPU is locked down to the motherboard and won't work anywhere else.
AMD is not your friend. Just like every other huge corporation.
It has two scrollwheels, one for vertical and one for horizontal. They have some interesting tech in them. When moved slowly they click with detents, like normal scrollwheels. But when you move the wheels more quickly they "unlock" to spin freely, you can scroll at a pretty high speed and with good accuracy.
Laurent, content de te revoir ! Et content de voir que tu te bats toujours pour les bonnes causes... Signe : un ex-collegue a la BNP ;)
I think they were competitive with old touchpads (and probably the ones you still get on cheap laptops) but I expect all the people above praising them have just never used a modern Apple touchpad. Far superior. It's not even close.
There's a good reason nobody makes them anymore.
I suppose a trackpoint might be useful if you really want your hands never to leave your keyboard, but generally I'm either editing text with emacs keybindings (where I don't have to use the mouse), or else I'm in a mode where having one hand off the keyboard doesn't feel at all hindering.
Maybe I could be convinced, but since they're hard to find these days and getting harder there wouldn't be much point (except to frustrate myself on the off chance I ended up loving them).
But yeah, sad that more laptops don't have trackpoints.
They don't have a learning curve in the sense that it's difficult to make one functional, but when I did try a trackpoint I felt it terribly awkward and imprecise. I'm not at all surprised that there would be a transition period after which trackpoints at least felt better to use.
I mean, it blocks such routers, not brick them permanently, but result is the same: you and your companion doesn't have internet. At all.
In the Frame.work style you might be able to do it via a more DIY approach.
> where the CPU is locked down to the motherboard
Don't quote me on this, but I think I heard that this wasn't on by default?
I've tried it on both Windows and Linux. I realize I'm not used to it, in the beginning I used to have a hard time with mice, too, so maybe it's just a question of habit.
For the moment, the only thing it does is leave a round trace on my screen whenever I close it...
> PageUp above Left, PageDown above Right: to me, that's the most important thing ever!
> PrintScreen between right Alt and right Ctrl: very important too
That's not a proper ThinkPad keyboard at all. That's the new 6-row fake which has 10 fewer keys than a proper ThinkPad keyboard, which is this one: https://laptopkeys.com/uploads/704_1348778226_Lenovo%20t410s...
Keys can easily be remapped in software, so all you really is the physical keys layout (full size arrows + two keys on either side of the up arrow) and the trackpoint. Menu or PrintScreen or whatever doesn't really matter much.
https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-apple_a15_bionic_5...
I haven't used the MX Master, only very briefly tested a display unit at a store, but I do believe that it spun for a while. So I'd check a video review first if you're thinking of buying one.
I personally use their G(aming) series mice with their older manual, mechanical mechanism instead of the new electromagnetic one in the MX Master. The G mice spin for a while... 15 seconds after a solid flick.
> I have pretty good vision
My vision is terrible. Maybe the relationship works the other way around?
There was a good thread here the other day on the subject of ARM hardware and the difficulties of things such as device trees and odd boot processes
They do have a learning curve; but FWIW, I feel exact the opposite - I can achieve both lightning fast movement, AND pixel-perfect precision with the trackpoint (the latter I have never managed to consistently achieve on a trackpad).
(Note, for me, it's never a "Trackpoint vs Mouse". I'll use mouse 100% of the time when at my desk. When not at the desk though, it's "Trackpoint vs Trackpad", and for the amount of space it takes, the compromises it instills in keyboard layout and ergonomics, Trackpad never quite worked for me. On aside, I miss the potential of netbooks because a 10" screen with Trackpoint would be a formidable hyper-portable machine with today's ARM processors - but not if you need to reserve 5 inches for a trackpad :| )
But they do. Last I checked HP, Dell and Lenovo all had options for power users (not in their consumer / mid-range laptops though). Or at the very least, my last several and current clients have all sent me laptops with a Trackpoint from those three brands (and not to my asking; it's just fairly standard for mobile employees or enterprise customers to have Trackpoint included)
>>What learning curve? Isn't it just a joystick mouse?
well, no - to me, that's an inherent contradiction: Mouse and trackpad are both positional (as largely is trackball). Joystick, trackpoint are directional. They are fundamentally different paradigms.
In terms of learning curve, I do believe Trackpoint is less intuitive for most users, as it does have that different paradigm. I think it takes a bit of time to get really good at it - most people who use it for a few minutes feel it's inferior and clumsy. But I've had "races" with my colleagues with Macbooks, and spoiler - I'll agree it's not even close, but not necessarily in the direction you might expect 0:-)
(on aside, I do have a Macbook, it's about 4 years old. How new does a modern it need to be to fit your definition of a modern Apple Trackpad?
I'd guess that the 2 extra cores don't really make much of a difference day-to-day. If you crank up all the cores, both chips will throttle in a laptop of that size. If you are only running a couple single-threaded applications, the extra 100MHz turbo hardly makes a difference (around 2-3%).
On the flip side, the places that need/want vPro are going to be very enterprisey and don't mind spending the extra money.
I love the idea of the Framework, but it seems to suffer from all the issues that made me switch to MacBooks in the first place.
I don't have your hinge issue. But, as you open the display, the hinge gets below the laptop's feet. So now it slides around on the table. Which is so stupid, because this laptop doesn't have 4 feet, but 2 large ones, than run the width of the laptop. Which is fantastic if you want to use it on the corner of a table since it won't wobble!
Then there's the screen. I swear someone at HP wanted to see how shitty a screen they could get away with in a 2000 euro laptop (which is just a middle of the road config, mind you). On basic models, you have a 6 bit screen. On higher-end ones, they have this security screen thingy that massacres the viewing angles even when it's off. If you move your head around the tiniest bit (say while listening to music) the colors will perceptibly change. The colors are atrocious. And they don't even hide it! The specs say 72% NTSC (not sRGB, which is much wider).
Then you have your usual suspects with cheap laptops: the cooler is an absolute joke, the fan developed a horrible noise in a few months. There's coil whine that drives you up a wall when connecting a USB-C monitor + power.
On the plus side, the analog headphone out is surprisingly good. I don't hear any background noise, there's no whine when moving the mouse, and the sound is similar to my Retina MBP on relatively high-end headphones.
It also works very well on Linux, I'd say it's even better than Windows: I've installed a fresh copy of Windows 11 and I can't get the camera to work. It works perfectly on Linux.
That being said, you don't need to upgrade from 11th gen to 12th gen. Maybe in a few years when 11th gen isn't cutting it for you anymore you can upgrade to 15th gen.
It's great that they provide a path for upgrading, but the more important thing here is having more recent hardware for someone who wants to buy a framework in 2022.
For battery life I think an average user can expect 5 to 6 hours. I use mine for about 5 hours with Firefox (around 10-20 tabs) and a few terminal processes and will still have about 20% remaining.
Especially on some apps (iirc pgadmin) where the tabs has no close button, that we need to right click and choose a menu to close a tab.
On mine, the horizontal wheel does not have this feature. Maybe the newer model does.
And like another poster mentioned, it has a detent when scrolling slowly like a traditional scrollwheel, that then mechanically disengages when flicked fast enough. You can configure this sensitivity in software, and even map one of the mouse buttons to disengage the detent, if you dont like the smart scroll feature.
Its seriously the best designed mouse I've ever used. It's clear logitech spent a lot of effort thinking about what makes a good mouse really good, and they implemented that in this mouse. Truly a flagship device, without cruft or unnecessary crap.
Battery life after about 4 years is so-so, so I keep a usb cable on my desk to plug it in when it runs low. I get about 2 weeks out of it?
Materials are also degrading a bit, it's surface is becoming sticky like many "velvet" finish plastics do, but its not at a point where it's gross to hold.
Its held up very very well after roughly 1000 work days of use. It's cost per day of use is basically 0.
Your level of understanding about how CPUs control their frequency, voltage, and power is evidently "none". Why spread comments like this which only serve to confuse and mislead readers?
I really hope some community hardware experts can design more modules for this thing. I want an IMU+GPS+Barometer module among other things, but I'm a software person and don't know how to design PCBs.
[0] https://community.frame.work/t/wi-fi-disappeared-and-reappea...
I'm on Windows, but if a Linux could give me reliable power management I would switch in a heartbeat. I don't know what it would take to have sensible power management on Linux without major issues.
This did not happen out of the box. I think I got like two hours of battery life before I began tuning parameters. As usual, the Arch wiki is an excellent resource even if you're running a different distro: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Power_management
Sadly, every country insist on doing everything else his own special snowflake way. There would have to be a lot more harmonization for it to be that easy.
But for me, it always comes down to the experience of the user interface--the keyboard, trackpad, and screen. And that always brings me back to Macbooks and ThinkPads. I'm a Linux fan, but 'ability to run a specific OS' is not even in my top three must have features.
Framework keyboard replacement guide: https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Keyboard+Replacement+Guide/8...
ThinkPad T470s keyboard replacement guide: https://support.lenovo.com/de/en/solutions/pd104683-removal-...
That Thinkpad model's keyboard replacement steps look way easier than Framework's.
There's also specific programs that are really bad. Edge used to add 2-4 hours extra battery life when using my Surface to read PDFs. If I used Firefox, it was shorter by a very noticeable amount.
I bought an "X2100" (a ThinkPad X200 with a 10th-gen Intel CPU) from him in 2020 and it's been fantastic.
I'd love to swap away from Apple to Framework but I gotta say, the current Pro M1 is pretty remarkable.
Is intel in the same ballpark with the 12th gen?
Generally anti-aliasing is a trade off between pixelation, blurriness, and performance. The better the anti-aliasing and the higher the pixel count the slower the performance - this can be an issue and some GUI applications like some IDE's at high DPI's. Faster antialiasing methods will look worse.
In an ideal world a high enough pixel density would mean the apparent pixelation is so low that anti-aliasing isn't necessary. Generally anti-aliasing means more blurry - although the amount of blur might not be an issue for you, it depends. The higher the DPI the less pixels that need to be "guessed" which gives you better precision, which is especially useful for vector graphics like text that have theoretically infinite precision.
It really depends on how you define "better". Generally for text specifically I think most people prefer sharpness. This, combined with the much higher DPI display's we have nowadays I think we're at the point where for many people including myself, text looks better without antialiasing. Personally I think it's easier to read.
tl;dr - it depends on how you define "better". At very high DPI's I think we're at a point where many people prefer the sharpness provided by the lack of AA compared to the artifacts that are now relatively tiny thanks to the high DPI. Also in some applications like Intellij I also have had performance issues with AA at high DPI's.
Agreed, with the seemingly-trivial but actually real elaboration: I’m excited because there’s a new version on the way and _I can decide, piece by piece, which parts of the upgrade I want._.
Having the upgrade be a literal circuit board I can swap out is 100% the value prop for Framework and I am likewise a very happy customer to see it, even if I’m happy with the current performance of my laptop and don’t need to upgrade.
For Linux-related service requests, we first ask that folks try an Ubuntu 22.04 or Fedora 36 Live USB (the distros we have done the most internal testing with and created setup guides for) to be able to determine whether there could be a hardware issue. Once we have verified there isn't a hardware issue, we ask that folks post in the community thread for their distro for help: https://community.frame.work/c/framework-laptop/linux/91
In practice, this works well because we have an extremely helpful and engaged community (including in many cases maintainers for that distro). Additionally, because that debugging happens in the open, any answers from it are publicly visible for future users to see.
All of that said, we'd love to find better ways to provide deeper support ourselves and are open to input. A more official path would likely still start with the most popular distros.
This modern layout has advantages: for example, the space between the keys makes it more comfortable to use with nails, so I no longer have to keep them short.
I've been waiting for 12th gen Alder Lake availability and am ready to pay. However as a EU citizen from one of the Baltic states I am unable to do so.
Please, tell us that this year any EU citizen will be able to order a Framework laptop.
I could not even find which friends in which countries to ask to order Framework for me.. It used to be US then UK, and I know there are a few other ones.
Combined with a waitlist the logistics are painful.
At least I hope that signing up for the waitlist from a specific country counts as something.
I was in the market for a MacBook Pro / max upgrades as well, mind you, so effectively I also saved a lot of money (I believe at least a $1k price difference).
I use Linux as my daily driver, super happy to see the better support here as well.
All in all, thank you for making a refreshing change in this market.
I'd also love a trackpoint with 3 dedicated buttons but I'll keep dreaming.
I absolutely despise the hinged touchpad on my thinkpad as you can't click unless you're pushing on the bottom half of the touchpad. A force sensor touchpad alone would make me put in an order for a framework laptop
Layout and the shape of keys are orthogonal concepts.
But yeah, you're right that there aren't many options these days, and the T25 is getting old. :-(
27 countries need to coordinate to first agree to grant the EU the power to take over some aspects and then those same 27 countries need to actually do the work, together with the EU, to standardize that aspect. Then the standard needs to be adopted and enforced.
The EU has less power than a confederation, which is a very weak supra-statal organization. So everything is very, very slow.
The EU is gradually able to do more and more, but the time frames are decades long.
I’m tempted but every time I’ve tried so far to leave Mac hardware I regret it - seems even harder now with M1 performance.
Still, the framework laptop is super cool. Might be worth trying anyway.
LPT: NixOS installs by themselves aren't good for much, use NixOS-hardware and look into power configurations if you have specific requirements.
1: https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-hardware/blob/master/framewor...
I was an MX Master 2 user for years, and bought a 3, along with an MX Keys [1] at the beginning of covid WFH. still going strong 2 years later, and I would buy both again in a heartbeat.
0: https://blog.bolt.io/logitech-mx-master-3-vs-2s/
1: https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/keyboards/mx-keys-wi...
I have both the current model and the older one. the horizontal wheel has been improved a bit - it's larger, and they moved the side buttons so that it's harder to hit them accidentally when scrolling horizontally (see this [0] comparison pic from a teardown [1] that I also linked elsewhere in this thread)
but the "shifting" feature is still only for the main scrollwheel, not the horizontal one. in practice I've never found myself using horizontal scroll often enough to wish it had the same "flick" capability.
Of course, the Framework is the polar opposite of the M1 Macs' locked down "appliance" feel. I'm enjoying the progress being made with OpenBSD and Asahi Linux on the M1 platform, but the hardware itself remains impossible to upgrade or repair for mere mortals. The Framework is the pinnacle of truly owning your laptop while not sacrificing speed and a crowd pleasing design.
Color accuracy is super important to me whenever I need to design something on the frontend side of things. High resolution is important too because I'm working with my screens. That means that I stare many hours per day in the display. Life is too short for shitty hardware and most professionals in our industry or their companies can definitely afford it.
I bought & imported a Supernote e-ink tablet from China the other day. The manufacturer offers none of the things mentioned above, heck their support team barely speaks English (but god knows they're trying!). Still everyone on Reddit loves them because they 1) produce a killer product, 2) provide great support when needed (e.g. send you a replacement or fix bugs), and 3) respond to community requests and regularly roll out software updates with fantastic new features.
Wouldn't even have to buy it from the US. Framework sells their laptops in Germany, which is right next to me.
But that means that I have to ship the laptop back to Germany for warranty-related stuff etc.
Others seem to manage by just having one or two pre-install options. Maybe you could do that too?
> Our embedded controller firmware is open
That's good, but do you also ensure that it _works_? There's way too much works-on-windows-and-halfway-on-Linux firmware out there. At least it _can_ be fixed, but being open doesn't mean that it necessarily _will_.
What support do you provide for Linux users?
It's like arguing whether or not macbooks are "ultrabooks". Choosing to discuss using these terms is ultimately just allowing these companies to arbitrarily control discussions. I think we should try to resist corporate capture of language when possible.
Consider the context of the parent comment. If I can barely notice individual pixels on my 1080p monitor with good vision at a normal viewing distance, then surely the difference between a 4K screen and a 2K screen can't be that noticeable, even to a professional artist (who probably has more ideal viewing conditions, a more trained eye, and lower viewing distance).
Looking at apple's website, their MacBook Air (which I assume is their main model?) has a "retina" resolution of 2560x1600 with a 13.3' display, whereas the framework has a resolution of 2256x1504 with a 13.5' display. So they are about the same, except that one is marketed as "Retina" and one is not.
Suspend will sap 30% of my energy by morning, even in "deep" sleep, and the computer won't wake properly. The trackpad will work intermittently or really fast after sleeping.
I have to turn the thing all the way off every time I use it. Which, alright, forced asceticism. Maybe a growth opportunity.
It's just frustrating and disappointing to find out so much work has gone into making a new one instead of fixing the pile of garbage I ended up with supporting them with the first version.
Even "deep" suspend saps 30%+ of battery overnight. And it won't wake right.
If this is the best testing you've done, people just shouldn't buy this thing.
Trackpad seems good to me but my setup is not trackpad heavy. In fact I have a hotkey binding in xmonad that disables the track pad because everything I do is keyboard based including my browser. So I find I rarely need to use the mouse and it just gets in my way.
Battery depends on usage, with nothing (nothing is emacs daemon, wifi on, bluetooth on, xmonad and syncthing running, I don't use a desktop environment) running my battery reports a discharge rate of 5-6W, with normal usage (firefox and chrome open, slack and spotify open) the battery discharge is ~9-10W which is easily 6 hours, of course when I'm compiling GHC with all cores firing away this shoots up to ~30W and battery tanks to 1-2 hours but I can't really blame the machine for that :)
See https://community.frame.work/t/any-chance-of-trackpoint/1026... if this is you too.
Maybe one day, but unlikely soon as apple just accelerates their lead.
I’m happy others are buying it though and funding them - I hope they get there.
We continue to focus on solid Linux support, and we’re happy to share that
Fedora 36 works fantastically well out of the box, with full hardware
functionality including WiFi and fingerprint reader support. Ubuntu 22.04
also works great after applying a couple of workarounds, and we’re working
to eliminate that need. We also studied and carefully optimized the standby
power draw of the system in Linux. You can check compatibility with popular
distros as we continue to test on our Linux page 322 or in the Framework
Community 39. [0], [1]
[0] https://frame.work/linux [1] https://community.frame.work/
I'm probably a lost cause now because I think I'm going to convert my entire raspberry pi cluster to NixOS from ubuntu.
There is a discussion here https://community.frame.work/t/any-chance-of-trackpoint/1026....
$ sudo powertop --auto-tune modprobe cpufreq_stats failedCannot load from file /var/cache/powertop/saved_results.powertop Cannot load from file /var/cache/powertop/saved_parameters.powertop File will be loaded after taking minimum number of measurement(s) with battery only RAPL device for cpu 0 RAPL Using PowerCap Sysfs : Domain Mask d RAPL device for cpu 0 RAPL Using PowerCap Sysfs : Domain Mask d Devfreq not enabled glob returned GLOB_ABORTED Cannot load from file /var/cache/powertop/saved_parameters.powertop File will be loaded after taking minimum number of measurement(s) with battery only Leaving PowerTOP
If it helps with the decision at all, certain 12th gen Intel mobile chips are competitive with the M1 in terms of performance. They do use more power to achieve that though if I remember correctly, but it's not an order of magnitude difference.
I'm stoked that mobile chips are getting as powerful as they are, even though I'm very much an Apple user. Higher perf low wattage parts are good for everyone, and competition will keep Apple moving forward which is good for me!
But if you want off windows and aren’t willing to go Mac, you take what you can get.
That sort of a guarantee way beyond what's reasonable of Frame.work, they don't control their suppliers to that degree. They've already updated the peripheral chips & hardware even within "v1", both for bugs and supply issues.
Frame.work has pretty much implied the form factor will remain largely untouched, so you're likely to be able to swap a component in even years from now, even if it'll be an "accidental upgrade". That sounds quite reasonable to me...
Similarly, I've heard anecdotes about employers in Quebec being forced to provide equipment that has full support for the French language, even if the employees only actually speak English.
I find it much more comfortable than the trackpad, but my curosr always seems so slow when it's not going way too fast. Is there special software tweaking I need?
EDIT: I forgot to mention I'm on Linux
That's just unacceptable: without wake timers (so outside "connected standby"), S0ix on a Intel 11th or 12th gen should use at most 0.7% of the battery per hour, so 7% over 10h (assuming you like long nights!). A well configured system should aim for about half as much, so between 3 and 4% over 10h.
You are getting about 5x worse power consumption during sleep than a normal modern system, and 10x worse than a well configured system.
https://www.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/tekihq/expansion...
https://community.frame.work/t/linux-battery-life-tuning/666...
Digging into the community forum should only be needed if you are using a different distro or if you want to micro-optimize beyond what is in the guides.
Real YMMV territory here. I use many devices and when one of them has been a US ANSI layout, that has been a problem. Any ISO layout is fine, could be UK QWERTY, AZERTY or QWERTZ, I'll reconfigure it on software and ignore the labels. But applying a ISO layout to a ANSI keyboard leads to issues like Linux losing the # key or OS X just making random shit up and calling it a keyboard layout it isn't.
Luckily, Framework has done the work of making an ISO layout already for UK/France/Germany
Yes. Who ever thought making up and down arrow keys so small was a good idea? They are high usage keys, and every time I'm on a laptop keyboard like that, I cringe whenever I use the arrow keys.
In fact, the keyboard is the first thing I look at when I'm in the market for a laptop. Small arrow keys = pass, I won't even look at the specs or price.
There is always a model or two in every laptop manufacturer's mobile workstation lineups with a pointing stick, for that reason. Not often is in consumer or non-workstation business laptops, and I was never impressed with one, but there always is one.
Higher-end laptops either support it on all ports, or just put ports on one side of the laptop.
Another huge + is setting battery charge limit with a console command (1). When I’m connected to power at home, I run `ectool fwchargelimit 60` to keep the battery at 60%. If I’m going out, I set it to 100% in the morning and let it charge.
1: https://community.frame.work/t/exploring-the-embedded-contro...
Or as you said, they don’t need to see the keys - I type in Russian and Ukrainian and don’t need to see the keys.
When I first read about this laptop, I immediately jumped to preorder it but found that they aren't sold to people like me. The same happened again when I read this article. Your comment reminded me why I still have one.
The thing is that I'm also starting to reconsider buying one now. I know they're small and barely able to keep up with their local markets, but competitors are starting to notice. I as a non-american would much rather buy from a international competitor who doesn't treat me like a lesser citizen if they can match Framework's level of openness and modularity. Once I buy into their ecosystem, I doubt I'll reconsider framework again. I imagine a significant portion of framework's underserved international market in this position.
I truly wish all the success to the framework team. I just hope, for their sake, that they manage to address international demand before they lose it to their competitors.
I never understood this. Why don't companies offer international keyboards in their online american store? It should be especially easy for framework to do this since they already customize their offers/sell kits.
You're saying MacOS deliberately uses fractional scaling by default on the 14 inch and 16 inch MBP models, the iMac, Studio Display, and the Pro Display XDR, even though all of them have a PPI that's deliberately meant for integer scaling? If that's true (which I really doubt), it would be extremely counterproductive, to say the least.
The M1 Air and the 13 inch MBP are the only Macs that don't have a suitable PPI for integer scaling.
In their reckless pursuit of apple and their loaded customers, Laptop makers failed to appreciate how important key layout is to retaining their existing customers. Fortunately, framework (or any third-party) is in a position to offer keyboards with alternate key layouts :)
MS and OSX are locked down enough that you need to be fairly clever to begin with just to get off the beaten path.
I think community is always the way to go when heading down the Nix road, you all are doing an incredible job with it!
Also on a laptop you might have stuff being plugged and unplugged all the time. Tbh it's kind of surprising systemd hasn't grown a "powertop that remembers things" arm.
So now, I'm watching it download and prepare an update in real time in safe mode, while doing absolutely nothing else, because apparently a light breeze will knock this update process over. Preparing the update has so far taken 30 minutes. No doubt installation will take another 30 mins to an hour.
"Just buy a macbook" doesn't work anymore.
Even with deep sleep the battery life feels very short. I haven't done formal tests, but I also have a macbook for work, and the difference is quite noticeable. I very often come to open the framework after a few hours of sleep and it just ran itself out of battery. This never happens with the macbook.
Don't get me wrong, I love the framework, and I love that it's "open", and fixable - so I'm willing to live with that. But just comparing it to another laptop, I'm not sure I'd give it 10 out of 10.
(I run archlinux on framework w/ 11th gen i7)
Please don't. Unless you want users of language layouts that make use AltGr to suffer.
Imagine typing away a message, accidentally slipping your finger from AltGr onto the PrintScr (actually SysRq), and triggering a sysrq reboot in linux. Regularly.
It's a choice between triggering crashes _all the time_, or disabling sysrq and never being able to debug the legit ones.
One nice thing about many used ThinkPads at least: trackpoints are usually the one component that are brand new on the device :D
On a desktop context, this may go unnoticed (so, in your cases like yours, it's not a problem at all), however, in a laptop, it will make the CPU inefficient, defeating the point of the Alder Lake design.
Isn't Intel graphics always been the best bet for Linux due to their excellent driver support? I'm excited for their discrete GPUs just for the sake of proper Linux support.
I have an 15W haswell machine in the corner decoding & encoding multiple HD camera feeds from motion on integrated GPU using intel_vaapi while the CPU is free for postgres, redis and a qemu VM - 24*7.
I can understand not shipping to a "untrustworthy" country like Romania or Poland (lol), but Sweden, Italy, Belgium? Even they register for mail forwarding services in order to buy from Germany (and before, UK).
It's much easier to buy from AliExpress, the CCP can't believe their luck with us drowning ourselves in redundant regulations while producing there because of lack of them.
On that note, Russia makes 2/3 of the world's nuclear power plants and they built this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Bridge in THREE YEARS. We can't manage a stupid river bridge for the same budget in a decade.
Right now you're just forcing people to jump through hoops by not allowing them to directly order from anywhere.
From your claim, the MacBook Air has simultaneously a smaller display and a significanly higher pixel count: over 20% more pixels than Framework's display in a smaller area.
You might try to argue that the difference is not meaningful or important to you personaly, but they are far from "being the same".
Of course there are plenty of laptops that have tons of great features, including repairability, though many laptops have been getting less repairable in recent years (even Thinkpads), so a laptop that makes this a reliable core feature, especially if it even means you can swap ports around, apparently, is absolutely interesting.
I like Gnome and its newest incarnation Gnome 40, but at least on Nixos it has some issues so I often rebuild to an i3-based environment instead.
As game dev is one of the main things I do with a personal PC, sadly this means Im somewhat tied down to having a decent gpu. RDNA2 would be perfect for me, powerful enough to dev on and weak enough to test on (so I dont need a seperate low-spec machine for testing low-end performance).
If you want the Mac experience on a Linux device, perhaps you'd be happier with an ubuntu preinstalled Dell or Thinkpad. If you do things the ubuntu way, I'd say the Apple "just works" guarantee applies.
Experience differs depending on hardware. My Dell XPS 13 got 7hrs out of the box on Manjaro, which I tweaked to get to 8.5-9. On ubuntu I didn't have to bother with the tweaks. That's comparable to Windows on this device...
It's also priced reasonably and so I might be able to get it to India without selling my kidney which is not possible with fully-built laptops due to import restrictions i.e. If Framework ever decide to ship to the country.
[1] https://community.frame.work/t/introducing-the-new-and-upgra...
Aside. I've seen the exact same problems with our local Amazon "competitor". As soon as they became a platform marketplace I've started using them less and less because of the same quality/delivery issues.
But of course the performance is awful and intel GPU is better for most tasks; Newer AMD GPU and open-source drivers are likely much better as you say.
And I'm ready to admit I am not an expert on it; my point is exactly that I am an expert on track point and it's awesome :-)
Which is why you should reward behavior and not branding. Buy because they're doing/selling the right thing now, not because you've got loyalty towards a multinational conglomerate.
One signal for instance I want to send is "I buy from whoever has good Linux support". You stop supporting it well, I look for competition.
Plus, given that the EU exists, why is it any more troublesome to ship to one of the EU countries than another?
For me 16:9/10 is way more "useful" than 3:2/4:3 ever was (had that for ages, wouldn't go back). I love being able to have two different things side-by-side, e.g. an editor and a terminal, on a 13" screen, at a font size I can still read well. I definitely wouldn't buy a square-ish laptop screen.
They're not ordering from amazon.com (US), they're probably ordering from amazon.de with a thin layer of English translations + autotranslations.
Anyone have any idea how well this stacks up against RDNA2? I'd love it to be close enough to not have to worry much about, but from what I hear AMD have it significantly better
Exposing the battery to high temperature and dwelling in a full state-of-charge for an extended time can be more stressful than cycling.
Most Li-ions charge to 4.20V/cell, and every reduction in peak charge voltage of 0.10V/cell is said to double the cycle life. For example, a lithium-ion cell charged to 4.20V/cell typically delivers 300–500 cycles. If charged to only 4.10V/cell, the life can be prolonged to 600–1,000 cycles; 4.0V/cell should deliver 1,200–2,000 and 3.90V/cell should provide 2,400–4,000 cycles.
On the negative side, a lower peak charge voltage reduces the capacity the battery stores. As a simple guideline, every 70mV reduction in charge voltage lowers the overall capacity by 10 percent. Applying the peak charge voltage on a subsequent charge will restore the full capacity.
I've used .de very often in the past, and when I stopped using Amazon, as said in reply to someone else https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31445473 , quality dropped (among other downsides) when they allowed third party sellers and those flood the product listing pages.
With those specific suppliers (and anything that isn't fulfilled by Amazon), I expect to be possible to have the issues you're referring to. But I wouldn't clump that together with Amazon not being available in some EU countries.
You just claimed that this is only possible with 200% scaling. Was that wrong?
16:9 is great if I wanna watch movies all day, unfortunately for the apparently unaware laptop industry, I need to also work a little bit sometimes.
Thankfully Apple never jumped on the stupid 16:9 bandwagon with their laptops. Now if only some monitor manufacturer would wake up and start making 27"+, 16:10, 4K+ monitors with 120hz+ refresh rate then I'll literally instantly buy 5.
Nope. If I can't file a ticket or call and get an issue fixed, that's not support.
> with a Framework you can replace a USB-c port with a 1TB expansion card, or with an Ethernet port, or whatever is in stock. Those who bought the first model can now upgrade to a next-gen processor and/or reinforced lid, without throwing the whole laptop away.
Ah, that _is_ a great difference then.
Hopefully they get their Linux act together.
Which is that even if it's legally a single market it's common that stores that deliver something to your door only sell their products in their own native country, or only within their local region.
I'm not really sold on the integrated dongle design of the framework. Doesn't this argument speak more to the design of USB-C than it does to the integrated dongles?
Every now and then I spin up an OS container w/ Ubuntu or the likes, forward X if I'm doing something that isn't supported in NixOS yet.
https://knowledgebase.frame.work/de/in-welche-lander-und-reg...
Sadly, protectionism is a thing. Launching in new countries is hard and expensive. Perhaps there's a company in country that would do it better than some giant international megacorp.
Once the ecosystem picks up speed and there are multiple vendors, perhaps the price or even capacity will improve. Although this may be possible with the thinkpad as well.
If what you're seeing is happening on one of those three that's bad, if it's happening on Arch or something - that's not really on them imo.
A question I should have asked before, but just assumed.
i5s get the same amount of P cores as i7s, so their general application performance is pretty similar. But then if they compile/render something the many small E cores make the CPU faster without melting the system down...
The thermals are also why Intel 11th [1] gen had a maximum of 8 cores, while Intel 10th [2] gen had a maximum of 10. AMD pushed forward with their up to 16 cores and because of how good their performance per watt is, they could cool them. Intel noticed with 10th gen that they couldn't achieve high enough clock speeds with so many cores.
[1] https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/series/... [2] https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/series/...
I wonder if it also offers FreeBSD support.. That would be amazing. Though it's probably a long shot especially for the alder lake version.
This is not entirely true :) The MacBook Air 11" was 16:9.
Please do!
Because even with the most generous interpretation of your issue, it seems fully self-inflicted, by a lack of typing skills compounded by refusing to configure the keymap or the sysreq bitmask, and asking instead for that to become everyone problem by having the key moved!
> accidentally slipping your finger from AltGr onto the PrintScr
What about learning to touchtype? And until them, typing in a well lit room?
> It's a choice between triggering crashes _all the time_, or disabling sysrq and never being able to debug the legit ones.
That's a false dichotomy. You are not triggering crashes, you are instructing your computer to reboot (sysreq B) which it does.
It should not be blamed on the computer, but on your lack of attention, and the lack of adaptation, so I'd even call that a self inflicted problem.
If you can take the time to configure your laptop to use a non standard layout, you can certainly take the extra time to learn proper typing instead of bothering the vast majority of those who are happy with this layout.
If you can't take that time, you can certainly apply one of the many possible counter measures, like moving sysreq to another key (cf dumpkeys and loadkeys), or just disabling the sysreq reboot function (0 disables sysreq, 1 enables it, but you can have a finer control if you read the documentation, ex: 128 is the bitmask for the reboot/poweroff) which would let you debug the "legit ones" - though if your linux has legit crashes, you may have bigger problems!
Being able to see more text (webpages, news articles), and longer lists (email inbox, code) is more important to more people than having a laptop that can watch movies. Split-screening on a laptop is rough no matter the dimensions. In the best case scenario you have a wide laptop and you see two panes, but a miniscule amount of rows on each pane.
Squarish laptops have been a breath of fresh air for me.
But if I’m buying a laptop for work why would I get a laptop from a manufacturer that has no presence in my country? What am I going to do when things go wrong? Unfortunately, it may be better to take a punt on a manufacturer with global presence.
Still "no" level of understanding? If there's something incorrect about my statements, feel free to correct me -- I do want to learn more, and I'm certainly no expert in CPUs. But it's just flat out rude (and against the contributor guidelines, I believe) to comment like this. Build other people up, don't tear them down.
Yes, this is optimal and what literally everyone wants.
An airplane takes off at full power, reaches cruising speed, and reduces power to maintain cruising speed.
A CPU uses max power until it reaches its max operating temperature, then it maintains that temperature operating at lower power.
Why does the latter offend you when it's exactly the same as the former?
> Still "no" level of understanding?
Sadly, yes.
> don't tear them down.
This conversation started with you tearing down thousands of expert electrical engineers who make Intel CPUs.
But I want Linux and the Blender 3.2 version released and all that ROCm/HIP support shipping with the Linux Distro/Kernel so I can Have Cycles-X GPU accelerated rendering for Ray Tracing/Rendering as Eevee lacks Ray Tracing currently.
It's just too bad the Intel and AMD have gone with some non standard GPU compute APIs instead of supporting Vulkan Compute. Intel's got its OneAPI while AMD's gotten its ROCm/HIP for GPU Compute API support as the Blender Foundation's no longer supporting OpenCL there for Blender 3.0/later editions.
AMD's Ryzen 6000 series APUs with RDNA2 integrated graphics are just great there for rendering capabilities but it's strange the laptops that ship with the Integrated 680M Graphics are mostly only available on laptops that also Include Discrete Mobile GPUs, as if the OEMs are force up-selling Ryzen 6000 based laptops that come with discrete mobile GPUs only, even if one can get buy with the Integrated 680M graphics alone.
But ETA Prime's YouTube channel has already Reviewed an Unnamed Mini Desktop PC Unit that sporting a Ryzen 6000HX series APU and that 680M integrated graphics but that product is not scheduled for release just yet. There is also a just released Minisfourm Ryzen 5000 series Mobile APU based Mini PC that's still Vega Integrated Graphics but that Mini PC also has a Radeon 6660M discrete Mobile GPU.
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Core-i5-beats-Core-i7-Alder-La...
So, git gud? Sorry, I'm not buying it. People have different motor skills, you know. You can't always make your body physically perfect.
Changing the mapping might work (although I doubt it, it's a deep kernel mechanism that probably avoids such complexity), but requires having the knowledge that it's even possible and how to do it. Sadly, laptops don't come with the instructions. And why should they? Machines should be made well in the first place.
Oh, and setting a mask doesn't help because b, c, e, i, k, o, r, u, all have nasty consequences.
Thanks :-)
My main complaint are that the built in speakers are not good, they just simply cannot get loud enough. I'm also a little annoyed that I bought mine and a month and a half later the 12th gen version comes out. I would have happily waited for it.
Yes, bring on the numpad on a laptop... not!
Form determines function: ANSI 104 had its time, when we were using desktops!
Now except for gaming and CPAs, numpads have outlived their usefulness.
If if's bothering you as much as you said, YES, stop complaining, and start acting on your complaints!
I've already given you all the pointers.
Now I'll help you more if you need.
> Sorry, I'm not buying it.
Neither am I. I get the feeling you want to complain more than you want to actually solve your problem. But as this is HN, I'm giving your comment the most positive interpretation possible.
> People have different motor skills, you know. You can't always make your body physically perfect.
So you don't want to try or, due to physical limitations, can't train better fine motor skills to be on par with about 90% of the regular population? Not very plausible, but why not!
Still, this leaves remapping Sysrq or configuring the bitmask, so I'll guide you though the keymap fixing if you need (even if I hope I won't have to, and that you'll be able to learn by yourself with the right pointers)
> Changing the mapping might work (although I doubt it, it's a deep kernel mechanism that probably avoids such complexity),
With computers, there is no place for philosophical doubts: you try it, and note the results of the experiment: either it does work, or it doesn't work. And if it doesn't, you can make it do so by reading the code, understanding then changing it.
So first, did you try it? If not, why? If you did, what did you observe?
BTW if you didn't, let me remove some of your doubts: dumpkeys and loadkeys are all that you need to change the sysreq mapping: the "deep kernel mechanism" links an action with a key through a table, defined in software.
This is just like how the same key can trigger a Y or a Z (US vs German keyboards) - and yes, you can change that too if you don't like it.
To have a look at this tablet, outside X or Wayland (ex: chvt 1), do:
dumpkeys > current.map
Edit it with your favorite editor to move Sysrq to where you want ex (ex: Insert key?).
You can also add any other changes you want (like, keep both your alt as regular alt, and instead make something else the 3rd level key - say the right ctrl key?)
> requires having the knowledge that it's even possible and how to do it.
Yes, this is called having agency. But here, I gave you the knowledge! Do you have another complain/excuse? Or are you willing to try to fix the problem now?
BTW regarding "agency", I don't use Linux as a daily driver- I prefer Windows, not just because it's less elitist, but due to the better terminal options and the greater hackability of its GUI. You don't have to use Linux if you don't like it! There are many things I dislike in Linux myself.
> Sadly, laptops don't come with the instructions.
You'll find most of the instructions you want (and more!) on the Arch wiki.
But if it doesn't exist or if it's not accessible enough, what about writing some?
Personally, I'm preparing a tutorial to help people with a specific tablet (great hardware, but bad software and configuration OOB, so most people hated it, which I find sad)
Maybe you could do the same, as other people may be inconvenienced by the same problem you are having, and would benefit from your solution?
> And why should they
Because you or someone else (say me!) cares enough to want to hack they hardware to do their bidding? Because it fun?
> Machines should be made well in the first place.
Different people want different things.
Some tastes can't be reconciled.
> Oh, and setting a mask doesn't help because b, c, e, i, k, o, r, u, all have nasty consequences.
Do you really want/need me to also write your bitmask for you? Select the ones you won't want, and mask them out
But again, you should take the easy way out: just remap Sysrq to another key that's away from your fingers, and call it a day! You could have done this remapping in less than half the time it took you to write this complain!
After being off for 24 hours, it dropped from 100% to 47%.
That's more than 2% per hour, and still unacceptable for a device that's supposed to be sleeping.
It doesn't work.
I have 3 other machines running the same version of Ubuntu. Not one of them would have lost more than 7% in the same amount of time.
I just did: I raised an objection to a bad idea for anyone who might be misled by it. Also I won't buy a computer with this flaw.
> So first, did you try it? If not, why?
I did not, because I did not know how. I also don't want to know how to alter my computer to achieve a basic minimum of functionality, because a minimum is what is assumed. Either the OS or the hardware should have sane defaults.
> Different people want different things.
I suggest you remap your keys (when you use Linux) to fit your special need then ;)
>I did not, because I did not know how.
Now you do
> I suggest you remap your keys (when you use Linux) to fit your special need then ;)
When there is no physical key, like to the left and right of the up arrow where pagedown and pageup would be, I can't invent them out of thin air.
PS: works on an 11th gen i5
EDIT: according to [1] S3 is supported on 12th. BIOS just hides it exists (not written in linked the article)
[1] https://edc.intel.com/content/www/us/en/design/ipla/software...
A better analogy:
An airplane takes off at full power, reaches cruising speed, but its engines have overtaxed themselves and can't maintain altitude. The place descends to a suboptimal altitude until the engines can turn back on, and raise the plane back to the altitude it's supposed to cruise at.
Your CPU explanation is technically correct:
> A CPU uses max power until it reaches its max operating temperature, then it maintains that temperature operating at lower power.
Yep, this is a very high-level explanation of what CPUs do. The trouble with Intel processors today is that they use max power for too long, and have to throttle so heavily to "maintain that temperature operating at lower power" that you can notice the latency when the CPU downclocks. An ideal operating curve wouldn't use max power for so long that it causes obvious latency issues to an end user. That's why I have Turbo Boost disabled on my laptops -- the few seconds of "max power" it yields just aren't worth the massive downclock while the CPU cools down. Better to set a more conservative power level that doesn't get in my way. This is especially noticeable if you use emulation or a beefy IDE like Android Studio that turbo boosts your computer to a high temperature in the first few seconds of use, then turns text editing and code suggestions into a sluggish slideshow for the next few minutes because the CPU has downclocked. Or maybe I'm just imagining that?
> This conversation started with you tearing down thousands of expert electrical engineers who make Intel CPUs.
Did I say anything bad about the engineers? I have lots of disparaging things to say about the way Intel works as a business, mostly based around how product and sales operate. I think the engineers at Intel do the best they can under the constraints of a poorly run company. But there's a reason engineering talent has been fleeing for the better part of a decade.
