I'm happy to answer any questions around this! We've been working on this since update since we launched the product last year, so we're excited to be able to share it today.
replies(43):
Very exciting to hear there's an improvement in this generation. Is that improvement due to intel changes, or due to frame.work changes? Can you quantify the standby improvement for linux in watts or battery % / 24h?
Does battery life significantly change between processor models?
Congrats on the refresh launch!
This is the only thing stopping me from getting a Framework laptop right now. I'd pay a premium for it as well.
A better approach would've been:
"Your website shows "Starting at 959 for the DIY option, but when I click on it the base option starts at 1,049. Am I missing something or is this a bug, an explanation would be welcome."
EDIT: I just realized that you cannot order this laptop with GNU/Linux pre installed. I was mistaken.
[1] https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/wd-black-sn850-m-2-nvme...
- no Management Engine
- chips that don't turbo boost themselves into throttling
- not supporting a company with a toxic approach to business
I believe AMD outperforms Intel when you're targeting mobile performance/battery life, rather than "moar CPU" workloads. Though that might change now that Intel is using their own approach to performance cores. Still, given the last decade of Intel development, they don't exactly have my trust that they'll execute performance cores without serious hiccups.
And of course if the campaign fails then you can at least say you tried.
We're seeing some interesting outputs of that: https://github.com/brickbots/framedeck/ https://github.com/penk/MainboardTerminal
Looking at the DIY Guide [0] it looks like a lot of the laptop comes pre-assembled still (case, motherboard, screen, keyboard).
Is it more cost effective to do the labor on Framework's side to ship everything more tightly together in 1 box or could we see a 'DIY Pro' option that ships every component in its own box? (Maybe even at greater discount?)
Also, check out this Mechanical Watch [1] tutorial that made it to the front page of HN last week. I could definitely see an exploded assembly view like this being really instructional for Framework DIY-ers.
[0] https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Framework+Laptop+DIY+Edition... [1] https://ciechanow.ski/mechanical-watch/
In the configure page to pre-order for the 12th-Gen variant, there's a link to the 12th-Gen variant. Feels a bit weird and confusing to be pointed towards the shiny new variant, while shopping for the shiny new variant.
Better integrated graphics, especially with the upcoming line, if what AMD says holds true.
Non-toxic approach to business.
Dr. Lisa Su has done incredible things with that company, and I'll happily support a group that recognizes the need for experience in top tech positions vs. MBAs/Lawyers/Fund Managers/etc...
The modularity of some components can be assumed because they are industry standards, like wifi modules I suppose. Other components perhaps Framework have designed their own range of modules with a common form factor, but it must be very expensive to engineer a compatible mainboard in the same form factor with a different chipset, unless they are using an existing standardised design.
Also congrats on the update, I honestly wasn't expecting it. I'm seriously considering a framework laptop/motherboard for my next PC.
Mainly is just out of principle and voting with my wallet.
It would be substantially more expensive for us to ship the laptop in a state that is less assembled. Packaging, labor for pack-out, and increased size and weight for freight all end up being quite a bit more than product assembly labor.
I want one of these so bad but if you end up doing a larger one shortly down the line i'm going to be really gutted.
Edit: also any plans for a blank ISO keyboard to match the blank ANSI one?
Even if you only want 4 usbc ports, get 4 usbc modules and don't be a baby about the 4x$9 for passthrough cards that don't even have electronics.
The usbc port inside the module bay is directly soldered to the motherboard. The module and bay serve as an important prophylactic to protect the usbc port from damage.
I would only use the real port inside as a backup when some module breaks or is lost or something.
It IS useful, and IS an explicit selling point (to me anyway) that you have the option to do something like plug a power supply or hub or dongle directly in there instead of it being a proprietary connector, but that doesn't mean do it regularly, especially not if the machine is being used in a portable manner where you're always plugging and unplugging.
AMD is important for multiple reasons.
First, it shows that they listened to feedback. From way over here in the corner it seems like AMD has been the most requested feature for the Framework.
Second, many people perceive that AMD outperforms Intel.
Third, many people think it is extremely important to reward positive competition in the market place.
Eighth, it would truly, truly prove the upgradeability and versatility of the Framework. Then we could move on to imagining dual^H^H^H^Hquad-Arm boards and RISCV boards and other fantasies.
We are continuing to build the infrastructure and keyboards to expand into more countries though!
edit: Someone also brings this up on the OP: https://community.frame.work/t/introducing-the-new-and-upgra...
Right now, in Europe it's only available in a handful of countries (5 of 27). I'm in Spain, and I see I can spec a perfect machine and get it delivered just over the border in France, but I can't get the same thing delivered here just a couple of hours away, which is very surprising! My understanding was the single market & customs union etc should make going from 1 to N EU countries pretty easy.
Is this due to smoe regulatory issues, or needing to organize shipping differently for every country, or waiting to include an ñ key, or something else?
Right now, I'm very seriously looking at ordering one, renting a PO box in France and shipping the laptop here myself, which seems a bit ridiculous.
Trackpoint is a bonus
I would argue one of the most glaring problems with selling Framework laptops was that they where "still" on Intel 11th Gen hardware which is often perceived as "not so grate" of a choice.
I'm sure they would love to also ship AMD based mobos (and Arm too) but it needs to be profitable, i.e. the additional sales gained through also supporting AMD must outclass the higher logistic cost as well as higher development cost. This might not seem like a big deal but from the little experience I have with logistics and things like maintaining Intel and AMD BIOS support, still having pressure to also ship a faster Intel mother board etc. I highly duped this makes any sense at this point in time.
Also, yes many people perceive AMD outperforms Intel, but many also perceive the opposite! Sure competition is grate, but Framework is not yet a well established company. Lastly I don't think they need to technically prove that upgrading to AMD or ARM is possible, the problem is not technology but logistics, resources (BIOS maintenance, testing, etc), supply-chains and potentially shitty contracts and practices by Intel (and other Companies).
So IMHO they need to first establish themself well, and then branch out.
A competitor would be very welcomed!whoever is going to take that market will have followers for a long time.
I bought an ASUS ZenBook earlier this year because as much as I like Framework's product, I don't want to give Intel another dollar after they bent me over a barrel for a decade.
Amazon might make it look easy but it really isn't (and Amazon is not available in all EU countries either!).
Logistics is more then just shipping, but also returns, repairs, availability, shipping time, shipping costs, where and how to keep stock. And this points affect each other, i.e. they might not have enough supply to sell to the whole EU market etc.
Lastly while there is a free marked in the EU if I remember correctly there are still some differences when importing things from outside into the EU depending on the country of entry. Like how to fill forms and which companies you can work with (for what prices) in given country.
Unfortunately it seems the pendulum swings on this one at least a bit. Unless you want a flagship CPU, you'll wait a good half year to a year to get half as much choice of budget CPUs with rather extreme handicap (cache).
Also half of them are OEM only.
Try to find a good current gen CPU for a small to mid sized NAS in their lineup, it's not easy.
They gave a IMO good overview of the difficulties of selling to a new country in a previous post :
> With our supply improving, you may be wondering when you can order a laptop if you’re outside of the US and Canada. We selected and are bringing up our worldwide warehousing and fulfillment partner, which is one very key part of the equation, but it takes quite a lot more than that to enable a complete experience in each country. Picking Germany as one example, we need German language keyboards, a Type F power cable, in-box paperwork and labeling in German, localization for the Framework website, support documentation, and checkout flow, support for local payment methods, calculation of Euro prices and taxes, accounting support for German income, creation of legally sound Terms of Sale, Privacy, and Warranty policies for Germany, CE certifications, a local Authorized Representative to back up the certifications, determination of HS codes and tariffs, an Importer of Record to be able to deliver duty paid, German-language in-time-zone customer support, reverse logistics and RMA support for returns and repairs, region-specific sourcing of off the shelf memory and storage, trial builds of German laptops prior to production, and back-end ERP infrastructure to tie all of this together. That sounds like a lot, but it’s actually a drastically simplified summary.
https://media.ccc.de/v/36c3-10942-uncover_understand_own_-_r...
I demo-ed my frame.work laptop yesterday to https://www.matinfo-esr.fr/ which is a single buyer entity for all french universities and public research institutes (once hardware is in their catalog it's click to order for universities without administrative hassle).
They showed interest on the non obsolescence, durability and repairability aspect of frame.work since these features are part of their public service mission.
Feel free to contact me, my email is on the website listed on my HN profile
I want to throw my money at you, but I can't because the laptop is not available for shipping to the country I live in.
Not the GP, but here's my reason:
For dGPUs, I strongly prefer AMD over nVidia because of Linux driver support. In recent years, most laptops with an AMD dGPU have AMD CPUs.
It's possible that my calculus will change in the next few years. E.g., if any of these things come to market:
- good laptop with Intel CPU and AMD dGPU
- AMD CPU with a fast iGPU. (I know these are in the pipeline, but I'm waiting for benchmarks.)
- Intel's upcoming laptop iGPUs / dGPUs perform well and have good Linux drivers.
- nVidia's efforts to open-source parts of their Linux drivers address my personal pain points.
I thought the whole point of the E.U. was to break down those cross-border paint points. Or is it still a work in progress? Can an E.U. person say if this is going to change?
I have heard of these things before but I am not quite sure what the possibilities are. Do you have a link that can summarize what this actual means in terms of security concerns?
https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-apple_a14_bionic-v...
https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-apple_a14_bionic-v...
For reference, on a Intel 11th Gen Lakefield (Lenovo X1 Fold), using a Vanilla Windows 11 Pro with the non-Lenovo Intel GPU driver downloaded from Intel Driver & Support Assistant, given the results of powercfg /sleepstudy I get a 6% of drain for 9h54 min (so about 10h) therefore 0.6%/hour in "disconnected" (no wifi activity) S0ix standby.
Before, with the official Lenovo driver, it was 0.5%/h (4h: 2% drain). I was hoping to get better results, but this isn't so bad with about 0 optimization!
S0ix has gone a long way, in both Linux and Windows.
The vast majority of that list has nothing to do with laws, but with physical requirements (keyboard and power plug), payments (not standardized beyond bank transfers), localization, and logistics.
Really like the laptop though, and it's a close contender when it's my time to upgrade... :)
Just because the BIOS says so doesn't mean it will work.
On some old Dells, the S0 implementation in the BIOS was just so broken it straight couldn't work, even in Windows. What saved the game was Microsoft carefully considering such scenarios and checking the battery budget: if S0 was draining the battery too fast for the computer to awake in a usable state (like, with enough power to at least boot...) it would give up on S0 and go S4 "hibernate" instead.
In Linux this is now called Hybrid Sleep (S0+S4) but I don't think it existed back when I was in university. Finding a working ACPI S3 was hard.
On thinkpads, as explained above, a working S3 is just sheer luck as Intel 11th gen shouldn't even support S3. On the 12th gen, it sure doesn't. I would be curious to know if S3 works with Linux on a X1 nano Gen2 (12th gen)
It just comes down to suppliers, who aren't serving customers outside of select markets for whatever reason.
Commendable. Very cool.
For people that need to use their devices on the go, I think it's a no brainer to prefer a Ryzen 6000 vs Intel.
The RDNA2-based Radeon 680M iGPU also significantly outperforms the (admittedly, much improved) Intel Xe iGPUs in 3D rendering. In synthetics, the new Radeon iGPUs are going head to head with Nvidia 1650 Max-Q dGPUs. This probably doesn't much matter if you aren't doing any gaming, but if you are, it means you can play most modern titles reasonably on the road in a thin and light form factor without giving up any battery life when you aren't.
I think a frame thick enough for PCB + Chocs would then allow both a premium mechanical keyboard in a standard shape, as well as allowing for swapping this out for whatever more niche arrangements.
Whereas, for a thin, non-mechanical keyboard, the manufacturing cost would be too high to be feasible for anything but standard, presumably.
Even if you want a flagship CPU; e.g. see the newest 5xxx series Threadrippers which were only released after a year and half and even then they are only available in overpriced e-waste systems from Lenovo where the CPU is locked down to the motherboard and won't work anywhere else.
AMD is not your friend. Just like every other huge corporation.
Laurent, content de te revoir ! Et content de voir que tu te bats toujours pour les bonnes causes... Signe : un ex-collegue a la BNP ;)
In the Frame.work style you might be able to do it via a more DIY approach.
> where the CPU is locked down to the motherboard
Don't quote me on this, but I think I heard that this wasn't on by default?
Keys can easily be remapped in software, so all you really is the physical keys layout (full size arrows + two keys on either side of the up arrow) and the trackpoint. Menu or PrintScreen or whatever doesn't really matter much.
https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-apple_a15_bionic_5...
There was a good thread here the other day on the subject of ARM hardware and the difficulties of things such as device trees and odd boot processes
I'd guess that the 2 extra cores don't really make much of a difference day-to-day. If you crank up all the cores, both chips will throttle in a laptop of that size. If you are only running a couple single-threaded applications, the extra 100MHz turbo hardly makes a difference (around 2-3%).
On the flip side, the places that need/want vPro are going to be very enterprisey and don't mind spending the extra money.
Your level of understanding about how CPUs control their frequency, voltage, and power is evidently "none". Why spread comments like this which only serve to confuse and mislead readers?
Sadly, every country insist on doing everything else his own special snowflake way. There would have to be a lot more harmonization for it to be that easy.
I bought an "X2100" (a ThinkPad X200 with a 10th-gen Intel CPU) from him in 2020 and it's been fantastic.
I've been waiting for 12th gen Alder Lake availability and am ready to pay. However as a EU citizen from one of the Baltic states I am unable to do so.
Please, tell us that this year any EU citizen will be able to order a Framework laptop.
I could not even find which friends in which countries to ask to order Framework for me.. It used to be US then UK, and I know there are a few other ones.
Combined with a waitlist the logistics are painful.
At least I hope that signing up for the waitlist from a specific country counts as something.
I was in the market for a MacBook Pro / max upgrades as well, mind you, so effectively I also saved a lot of money (I believe at least a $1k price difference).
I use Linux as my daily driver, super happy to see the better support here as well.
All in all, thank you for making a refreshing change in this market.
I absolutely despise the hinged touchpad on my thinkpad as you can't click unless you're pushing on the bottom half of the touchpad. A force sensor touchpad alone would make me put in an order for a framework laptop
27 countries need to coordinate to first agree to grant the EU the power to take over some aspects and then those same 27 countries need to actually do the work, together with the EU, to standardize that aspect. Then the standard needs to be adopted and enforced.
The EU has less power than a confederation, which is a very weak supra-statal organization. So everything is very, very slow.
The EU is gradually able to do more and more, but the time frames are decades long.
I bought & imported a Supernote e-ink tablet from China the other day. The manufacturer offers none of the things mentioned above, heck their support team barely speaks English (but god knows they're trying!). Still everyone on Reddit loves them because they 1) produce a killer product, 2) provide great support when needed (e.g. send you a replacement or fix bugs), and 3) respond to community requests and regularly roll out software updates with fantastic new features.
Others seem to manage by just having one or two pre-install options. Maybe you could do that too?
> Our embedded controller firmware is open
That's good, but do you also ensure that it _works_? There's way too much works-on-windows-and-halfway-on-Linux firmware out there. At least it _can_ be fixed, but being open doesn't mean that it necessarily _will_.
What support do you provide for Linux users?
That sort of a guarantee way beyond what's reasonable of Frame.work, they don't control their suppliers to that degree. They've already updated the peripheral chips & hardware even within "v1", both for bugs and supply issues.
Frame.work has pretty much implied the form factor will remain largely untouched, so you're likely to be able to swap a component in even years from now, even if it'll be an "accidental upgrade". That sounds quite reasonable to me...
Similarly, I've heard anecdotes about employers in Quebec being forced to provide equipment that has full support for the French language, even if the employees only actually speak English.
Real YMMV territory here. I use many devices and when one of them has been a US ANSI layout, that has been a problem. Any ISO layout is fine, could be UK QWERTY, AZERTY or QWERTZ, I'll reconfigure it on software and ignore the labels. But applying a ISO layout to a ANSI keyboard leads to issues like Linux losing the # key or OS X just making random shit up and calling it a keyboard layout it isn't.
Luckily, Framework has done the work of making an ISO layout already for UK/France/Germany
Or as you said, they don’t need to see the keys - I type in Russian and Ukrainian and don’t need to see the keys.
I can understand not shipping to a "untrustworthy" country like Romania or Poland (lol), but Sweden, Italy, Belgium? Even they register for mail forwarding services in order to buy from Germany (and before, UK).
It's much easier to buy from AliExpress, the CCP can't believe their luck with us drowning ourselves in redundant regulations while producing there because of lack of them.
On that note, Russia makes 2/3 of the world's nuclear power plants and they built this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Bridge in THREE YEARS. We can't manage a stupid river bridge for the same budget in a decade.
Right now you're just forcing people to jump through hoops by not allowing them to directly order from anywhere.
Aside. I've seen the exact same problems with our local Amazon "competitor". As soon as they became a platform marketplace I've started using them less and less because of the same quality/delivery issues.
Which is why you should reward behavior and not branding. Buy because they're doing/selling the right thing now, not because you've got loyalty towards a multinational conglomerate.
One signal for instance I want to send is "I buy from whoever has good Linux support". You stop supporting it well, I look for competition.
Plus, given that the EU exists, why is it any more troublesome to ship to one of the EU countries than another?
They're not ordering from amazon.com (US), they're probably ordering from amazon.de with a thin layer of English translations + autotranslations.
I've used .de very often in the past, and when I stopped using Amazon, as said in reply to someone else https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31445473 , quality dropped (among other downsides) when they allowed third party sellers and those flood the product listing pages.
With those specific suppliers (and anything that isn't fulfilled by Amazon), I expect to be possible to have the issues you're referring to. But I wouldn't clump that together with Amazon not being available in some EU countries.
Which is that even if it's legally a single market it's common that stores that deliver something to your door only sell their products in their own native country, or only within their local region.
Still "no" level of understanding? If there's something incorrect about my statements, feel free to correct me -- I do want to learn more, and I'm certainly no expert in CPUs. But it's just flat out rude (and against the contributor guidelines, I believe) to comment like this. Build other people up, don't tear them down.
Yes, this is optimal and what literally everyone wants.
An airplane takes off at full power, reaches cruising speed, and reduces power to maintain cruising speed.
A CPU uses max power until it reaches its max operating temperature, then it maintains that temperature operating at lower power.
Why does the latter offend you when it's exactly the same as the former?
> Still "no" level of understanding?
Sadly, yes.
> don't tear them down.
This conversation started with you tearing down thousands of expert electrical engineers who make Intel CPUs.
https://www.notebookcheck.net/Core-i5-beats-Core-i7-Alder-La...
PS: works on an 11th gen i5
EDIT: according to [1] S3 is supported on 12th. BIOS just hides it exists (not written in linked the article)
[1] https://edc.intel.com/content/www/us/en/design/ipla/software...
A better analogy:
An airplane takes off at full power, reaches cruising speed, but its engines have overtaxed themselves and can't maintain altitude. The place descends to a suboptimal altitude until the engines can turn back on, and raise the plane back to the altitude it's supposed to cruise at.
Your CPU explanation is technically correct:
> A CPU uses max power until it reaches its max operating temperature, then it maintains that temperature operating at lower power.
Yep, this is a very high-level explanation of what CPUs do. The trouble with Intel processors today is that they use max power for too long, and have to throttle so heavily to "maintain that temperature operating at lower power" that you can notice the latency when the CPU downclocks. An ideal operating curve wouldn't use max power for so long that it causes obvious latency issues to an end user. That's why I have Turbo Boost disabled on my laptops -- the few seconds of "max power" it yields just aren't worth the massive downclock while the CPU cools down. Better to set a more conservative power level that doesn't get in my way. This is especially noticeable if you use emulation or a beefy IDE like Android Studio that turbo boosts your computer to a high temperature in the first few seconds of use, then turns text editing and code suggestions into a sluggish slideshow for the next few minutes because the CPU has downclocked. Or maybe I'm just imagining that?
> This conversation started with you tearing down thousands of expert electrical engineers who make Intel CPUs.
Did I say anything bad about the engineers? I have lots of disparaging things to say about the way Intel works as a business, mostly based around how product and sales operate. I think the engineers at Intel do the best they can under the constraints of a poorly run company. But there's a reason engineering talent has been fleeing for the better part of a decade.