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1680 points etbusch | 106 comments | | HN request time: 1.599s | source | bottom
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sryie ◴[] No.31434782[source]
I recently received my first framework laptop after being a loyal Thinkpad user for years. I am loving it so far. I run Ubuntu 22.04 daily and have not had any issues with battery life or the lid (but I do typically leave it plugged in during lunch and overnight). The expansion cards are brilliant and the keyboard is comparable to my old t-series. The aspect ratio is great for coding and I'm happy to see upgradeability is being taken seriously as promised. If I can get 5-10 years out of it like my old ThinkPads (all while upgrading piecewise along the way) I will be a fan for life.
replies(6): >>31434810 #>>31434877 #>>31435998 #>>31436540 #>>31436697 #>>31437014 #
1. Goronmon ◴[] No.31434877[source]
I recently received my first framework laptop after being a loyal Thinkpad user for years.

I get excited about different laptops occasionally...and then I remember that I won't have a trackpoint if I switch to a different brand, and I get disappointed. Literally happens every few months.

replies(14): >>31435070 #>>31435167 #>>31435374 #>>31435965 #>>31436141 #>>31436258 #>>31436464 #>>31436740 #>>31436868 #>>31437107 #>>31437319 #>>31440279 #>>31441931 #>>31442229 #
2. pauke ◴[] No.31435070[source]
Business class Dells and HPs have one too. Named differently because TM but good enough.
replies(1): >>31435245 #
3. sryie ◴[] No.31435167[source]
Yep, the trackpoint (and buttons on top of the touchpad) are huge. I am a heavy vim user so those were extremely convenient but I have been trying to get comfortable with tap to click because that seems to be the way laptop manufacturers have headed (and I don't want my efficiency to suddenly collapse when I am put behind any other brand of computer). I am also still holding out some small hope that someone will come up with a way to swap it in to a framework laptop but I'm not holding my breath.
replies(1): >>31441917 #
4. cooperadymas ◴[] No.31435245[source]
I would challenge you to find a 2022 Dell or HP with a trackpoint.
replies(6): >>31435316 #>>31435330 #>>31435380 #>>31435754 #>>31442575 #>>31447635 #
5. guardiangod ◴[] No.31435316{3}[source]
https://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/pdp/hp-elitebook-840-g8-notebo...

Just got a new one from work. It's literally in front of me right now.

Granted the laptop's build quality is questionable (the right hinge's case bulges higher than the left) and the trackpoint has a tendency to get stuck to one direction.

replies(3): >>31436018 #>>31439103 #>>31442255 #
6. jackbravo ◴[] No.31435330{3}[source]
The HP EliteBook laptops still have trackpads. For example this one: https://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/pdp/hp-elitebook-850-g8-notebo...
7. pedrocr ◴[] No.31435374[source]
Yep, same here. And with increasing urgency as Thinkpad quality control seems to have fallen off a cliff. Framework seems uniquely positioned to fix this though. Someone just needs to do a compatible top cover that takes Thinkpad keyboards. I'd take a stupid one without touchpad at all as I just disable it anyway. That shouldn't be too hard, it's mostly getting the plastic right and adapting the connector to the motherboard.
replies(2): >>31436698 #>>31442478 #
8. stevephilp ◴[] No.31435380{3}[source]
Although technically released in late 2021, the HP Elitebook 855 G8 has a trackpoint.
9. pauke ◴[] No.31435754{3}[source]
Ouch, that hurts. It seems you're right at least about Dells, and HPs are going too.
10. spaniard89277 ◴[] No.31435965[source]
We're on the same boat. IDK what to do honestly. Hope someone makes a keyboard with trackpoint for the framework.
replies(1): >>31441925 #
11. samstave ◴[] No.31436018{4}[source]
I have a flagship HP Omen 15" gaming laptop. The case is garbage, but the screen and guts are good.
12. tluyben2 ◴[] No.31436141[source]
That's why I have high hopes for (something like) the Frame.work; it should be possible to just get another keyboard 'part' which actually does have a trackpoint (and even no trackpad but other stuff theoretically). Someone, either Frame.work themselves or someone else needs to make it, but at least it's possible.

Edit: I would pay for such a keyboard for the Frame.work; it would actually very much stimulate me to buy one! I really hope to see crowdfunding from people who just make a Frame.work part.

replies(1): >>31437872 #
13. ddoolin ◴[] No.31436258[source]
I genuinely had no idea people still used those, or that they were still made with those.
replies(1): >>31436770 #
14. KerrickStaley ◴[] No.31436464[source]
The Trackpoint seems redundant to me because I can manipulate the trackpad with my thumb without leaving the home row, and for me it's faster and more comfortable than a Trackpoint.

Using your thumb to control the trackpad works better on Mac laptops because the Force Touch trackpad allows you to press anywhere to click. Most PC laptops have a "diving board" click mechanism which means it gets progressively harder to click the further you are from the bottom, and clicking near the top is impossible. Also, Mac laptops position the top of the trackpad closer to the keyboard than other laptops I've seen.

You can use tap-to-click as a work-around for being unable to click the top of the trackpad, but I find tap-to-click less usable for other reasons.

replies(2): >>31436526 #>>31438630 #
15. sryie ◴[] No.31436526[source]
Is there a way to middle click with this method? I use that often for new tabs and ThinkPads have the physical button at the top and tap to click is just three fingers.
replies(1): >>31437177 #
16. csdvrx ◴[] No.31436698[source]
> Yep, same here. And with increasing urgency as Thinkpad quality control seems to have fallen off a cliff.

Not really, they are among the rare laptops to still offer S3 for Linux.

And the X1 Fold is a technical marvel (working on Linux support right now, if I'm successful it may become my next toy device to try to use Linux on as a daily driver)

> Framework seems uniquely positioned to fix this though. Someone just needs to do a compatible top cover that takes Thinkpad keyboards.

This. I will buy one as soon as they make a thinkpad like keyboard [+] or the possibly to disassemble and mount a genuine Thinkpad keyboard.

+ : A keyboard qualifies as a "thinkpad keyboard" if has all of the following:

- PageUp above Left, PageDown above Right: to me, that's the most important thing ever!

- PrintScreen between right Alt and right Ctrl: very important too

- Delete above Backspace

- A trackpoint between the {G,H,B} keys with 3 buttons below the Spacebar: I'm not a trackpoint fanatic but I appreciate the precision it offers when I need it, and badly felt its absence when I tried a macbook (no, can't do!)

replies(5): >>31437715 #>>31438733 #>>31441897 #>>31444105 #>>31455784 #
17. NikolaNovak ◴[] No.31436740[source]
Same. Everytime I get excited about Framework, Syste7m6, etc... and then get sad.

I fully understand I'm a vanishing minority, But trackpoint is such a productivity booster for me, and makes such amazing use of space in a laptop format, that it's a must-have (and again, I fully understand that those who don't use Trackpoint will have no comprehension of what am I going on about; I'm a grouchy quirky old man :).

Then there's other little things that may or may not be trackpad related - small function keys, lack of standard home/end/insert/del/pgup/pgdown cluster, and the collapsed arrows which I don't even understand - you have the room, it's right there, nothing is using it... why is everybody making up and down arrows functionally unusable (I want to blame Apple, but as Obi Wan said - who's the bigger fool, the fool, or the fool that follows :)

replies(7): >>31436902 #>>31436941 #>>31437030 #>>31437199 #>>31437855 #>>31438159 #>>31442569 #
18. NikolaNovak ◴[] No.31436770[source]
It's one of those things that once you invest into the learning curve, you're a cultish convert (I certainly am one:)
replies(2): >>31438334 #>>31438387 #
19. pbhjpbhj ◴[] No.31436868[source]
Won't fix one child-comment on quality, but is there a TP keyboard that would physically fit the hole in the framework. A physical shim would be easy easier; I'm assuming (possibly wrongly) that they connect via an internal USB connection?
20. kwertyoowiyop ◴[] No.31436902[source]
It’s almost worth getting a “gamer laptop” just to get full-sized up/down arrow keys.
21. csdvrx ◴[] No.31436941[source]
> the collapsed arrows which I don't even understand - you have the room, it's right there, nothing is using it... why is everybody making up and down arrows functionally unusable (I want to blame Apple, but as Obi Wan said - who's the bigger fool, the fool, or the fool that follows :)

This so much!!

I miss PageUp and PageDown there so much I refuse to buy anything but thinkpads right now.

The last alternative brand was Dell, which adopted the stupidly huge Left and Right arrows, and that's even seen on customer line Lenovos now :(

replies(1): >>31438934 #
22. xur17 ◴[] No.31437030[source]
I used to love my trackpoint, and swore by it, but I was unable to get my mouse to go fast enough on my latest X1 carbon, so I've sadly stopped using it..
replies(1): >>31439500 #
23. riedel ◴[] No.31437107[source]
I am posting the same thing every time framework pops up on HN. I hope the nudging will do it's work eventually.

Meanwhile I am wondering why there aren't many third party mods for the framework around. Would it be feasible to design a trackpoint keyboard (if you figure out how to put it in the profile) ? Does it connect via USB or alike internally?

24. innocenat ◴[] No.31437177{3}[source]
If it's only for open in new tab, then Ctrl+Left Click work as well when using trackpad.
replies(2): >>31439236 #>>31440031 #
25. acomjean ◴[] No.31437199[source]
When I was at IBM I had a mouse with a trackpoint for scrolling. It was pretty great. I miss being able to move and scroll at variable speeds.

https://www.microsoft.com/buxtoncollection/detail.aspx?id=12...

and a paper: https://www.microsoft.com/buxtoncollection/a/pdf/Zhai%20scro...

replies(2): >>31438180 #>>31438586 #
26. s0rce ◴[] No.31437319[source]
I loved the TrackPoint and still miss it occasionally, had one on my T41p from IBM, however, I've been really happy with my Macbook (2011 Air and 2020 M1 Pro) trackpad, its lightyears ahead of any other ones I used on PC laptops and just works seamlessly. My Dell laptop from work the trackpad is garbage.
27. pedrocr ◴[] No.31437715{3}[source]
> Not really, they are among the rare laptops to still offer S3 for Linux.

The features are great but my complaint was about quality control. My T460s has had every single part but the chassis replaced, some multiple times, and still failed. A new T14s had to have the keyboard replaced because it randomly missed keystrokes. It then started having the screen randomly start flickering after resume. A new X1, top of the line 4K spec, has the internal screen randomly lose sync. The days of Thinkpads as dependable machines seem gone.

replies(3): >>31438020 #>>31440689 #>>31440897 #
28. Melatonic ◴[] No.31437855[source]
Trackpoint really is damn nice. I also find it hilarious when I disable the trackpad in the bios to avoid any accidental brushes and then someone else tries to use my laptop - its like watching a deer try to walk for the first time!
replies(2): >>31439978 #>>31440382 #
29. Melatonic ◴[] No.31437872[source]
Seriously - or at least a mod kit to get it working with the existing keyboard. Hell there could even maybe be a universal mod kit to add to any laptop keyboard that is removeable and has the space!
30. csdvrx ◴[] No.31438020{4}[source]
> A new X1, top of the line 4K spec, has the internal screen randomly lose sync. The days of Thinkpads as dependable machines seem gone.

I believe it's all due to the large hardware and firmware changes.

Take for example USB-C: we don't know yet how to make study ports. My X1 had its motherboard replaced due to a dead port.

Or look at ACPI S0ix: it's only since last year that it's become comparable to S3 in power consumption (and S3 is no longer officially supported since Intel 11th gen)

The keyboard too changed: the layout is the same as the xx30 series, but there's less travel.

Likewise, the screens are now 2k or 4k with thinner bezels, and intel HUD ("Xe graphic") is quite different from the previous generations: even if it's handled by the same i915 driver on Linux, GUC/HUC are more important, and disabling PSR no longer makes sense.

Change is constant, but I believe pre pandemic and post pandemic Thinkpads are very different beasts.

31. bigpeopleareold ◴[] No.31438159[source]
I taught myself just last year to use the trackpoint because I was curious. I turned it off at the BIOS, etc. just to make me use it exclusively. Once I got over the hump, I was surprised. I don't want keyboards anymore without it. I developed a strong muscle memory for it over the year. I'm a grouchy quirky old man, but when it comes to trackpoints, I am new to this quirk :D
replies(2): >>31438409 #>>31438706 #
32. the_pwner224 ◴[] No.31438180{3}[source]
It's not the same, but the Logitech MX Master is basically the current version of this.

It has two scrollwheels, one for vertical and one for horizontal. They have some interesting tech in them. When moved slowly they click with detents, like normal scrollwheels. But when you move the wheels more quickly they "unlock" to spin freely, you can scroll at a pretty high speed and with good accuracy.

replies(3): >>31438498 #>>31438845 #>>31440694 #
33. IshKebab ◴[] No.31438334{3}[source]
What learning curve? Isn't it just a joystick mouse?

I think they were competitive with old touchpads (and probably the ones you still get on cheap laptops) but I expect all the people above praising them have just never used a modern Apple touchpad. Far superior. It's not even close.

There's a good reason nobody makes them anymore.

replies(2): >>31438414 #>>31439049 #
34. mrtranscendence ◴[] No.31438387{3}[source]
I've tried them, but they felt so clumsy to me that I don't see how I could ever be a convert. Trackpads, at least on Macs, feel precise and intuitive; I even use one on the desktop (unless I'm gaming).

I suppose a trackpoint might be useful if you really want your hands never to leave your keyboard, but generally I'm either editing text with emacs keybindings (where I don't have to use the mouse), or else I'm in a mode where having one hand off the keyboard doesn't feel at all hindering.

Maybe I could be convinced, but since they're hard to find these days and getting harder there wouldn't be much point (except to frustrate myself on the off chance I ended up loving them).

replies(1): >>31439001 #
35. philjohn ◴[] No.31438409{3}[source]
Having had a trackpoint laptop since the 90's, the only thing that I found I could switch to when moving to a job that gave all engineers Mac's was the MBP track pad - the gestures and precision/feel just about made up for the loss of not having to move hands from the home row.

But yeah, sad that more laptops don't have trackpoints.

replies(2): >>31440295 #>>31442298 #
36. mrtranscendence ◴[] No.31438414{4}[source]
> What learning curve? Isn't it just a joystick mouse?

They don't have a learning curve in the sense that it's difficult to make one functional, but when I did try a trackpoint I felt it terribly awkward and imprecise. I'm not at all surprised that there would be a transition period after which trackpoints at least felt better to use.

37. tomc1985 ◴[] No.31438498{4}[source]
I looooooove this feature of the MX Master mice, but I went through 2 of them in two years. They do not seem particularly well-built.
replies(1): >>31440132 #
38. robotguy ◴[] No.31438586{3}[source]
Back in the late '90s, I worked for an inventor dealing with analog dome switches. We took a mouse that had a rocker for scrolling instead of a wheel and I reprogrammed it to "fake" scroll clicks faster or slower depending on how hard you pressed. You could scroll slow enough to read, or zoom to the end of a doc with really good control. Man I miss that mouse.
39. soperj ◴[] No.31438630[source]
how do you scroll with just your thumb? how do you paste into your terminal?
40. vladvasiliu ◴[] No.31438706{3}[source]
Is this on a thinkpad? My HP EliteBook has a track point and I haven't found any config that makes it usable. The tracking is either way too quick or way too slow. And the acceleration curve is either very steep or non-existent.

I've tried it on both Windows and Linux. I realize I'm not used to it, in the beginning I used to have a hard time with mice, too, so maybe it's just a question of habit.

For the moment, the only thing it does is leave a round trace on my screen whenever I close it...

replies(3): >>31440337 #>>31443510 #>>31444107 #
41. Liskni_si ◴[] No.31438733{3}[source]
> A keyboard qualifies as a "thinkpad keyboard" if has all of the following:

> PageUp above Left, PageDown above Right: to me, that's the most important thing ever!

> PrintScreen between right Alt and right Ctrl: very important too

That's not a proper ThinkPad keyboard at all. That's the new 6-row fake which has 10 fewer keys than a proper ThinkPad keyboard, which is this one: https://laptopkeys.com/uploads/704_1348778226_Lenovo%20t410s...

replies(2): >>31440101 #>>31440135 #
42. jjeaff ◴[] No.31438845{4}[source]
Do the scroll wheels have "weight" to them? In other words, can you give it a good spin and let it keep spinning on its own momentum?
replies(3): >>31438959 #>>31439190 #>>31439376 #
43. vladvasiliu ◴[] No.31438934{3}[source]
HPs still have dedicated pgup / home /etc in a column, to the right of backspace / enter / etc. But they've also adopted the stupid arrow cluster you describe.
44. the_pwner224 ◴[] No.31438959{5}[source]
Yep, the scrollwheels are metal so they have some heft and they do keep spinning.

I haven't used the MX Master, only very briefly tested a display unit at a store, but I do believe that it spun for a while. So I'd check a video review first if you're thinking of buying one.

I personally use their G(aming) series mice with their older manual, mechanical mechanism instead of the new electromagnetic one in the MX Master. The G mice spin for a while... 15 seconds after a solid flick.

45. NikolaNovak ◴[] No.31439001{4}[source]
>>they felt so clumsy to me that I don't see how I could ever be a convert.

They do have a learning curve; but FWIW, I feel exact the opposite - I can achieve both lightning fast movement, AND pixel-perfect precision with the trackpoint (the latter I have never managed to consistently achieve on a trackpad).

(Note, for me, it's never a "Trackpoint vs Mouse". I'll use mouse 100% of the time when at my desk. When not at the desk though, it's "Trackpoint vs Trackpad", and for the amount of space it takes, the compromises it instills in keyboard layout and ergonomics, Trackpad never quite worked for me. On aside, I miss the potential of netbooks because a 10" screen with Trackpoint would be a formidable hyper-portable machine with today's ARM processors - but not if you need to reserve 5 inches for a trackpad :| )

replies(2): >>31440964 #>>31441537 #
46. NikolaNovak ◴[] No.31439049{4}[source]
>>There's a good reason nobody makes them anymore.

But they do. Last I checked HP, Dell and Lenovo all had options for power users (not in their consumer / mid-range laptops though). Or at the very least, my last several and current clients have all sent me laptops with a Trackpoint from those three brands (and not to my asking; it's just fairly standard for mobile employees or enterprise customers to have Trackpoint included)

>>What learning curve? Isn't it just a joystick mouse?

well, no - to me, that's an inherent contradiction: Mouse and trackpad are both positional (as largely is trackball). Joystick, trackpoint are directional. They are fundamentally different paradigms.

In terms of learning curve, I do believe Trackpoint is less intuitive for most users, as it does have that different paradigm. I think it takes a bit of time to get really good at it - most people who use it for a few minutes feel it's inferior and clumsy. But I've had "races" with my colleagues with Macbooks, and spoiler - I'll agree it's not even close, but not necessarily in the direction you might expect 0:-)

(on aside, I do have a Macbook, it's about 4 years old. How new does a modern it need to be to fit your definition of a modern Apple Trackpad?

47. vladvasiliu ◴[] No.31439103{4}[source]
Oh man, I have an 845 g8 (840 with amd). I hate this laptop with a passion. It could've been such a great tool, but it's a steaming PoS because HP wanted to make a quick buck.

I don't have your hinge issue. But, as you open the display, the hinge gets below the laptop's feet. So now it slides around on the table. Which is so stupid, because this laptop doesn't have 4 feet, but 2 large ones, than run the width of the laptop. Which is fantastic if you want to use it on the corner of a table since it won't wobble!

Then there's the screen. I swear someone at HP wanted to see how shitty a screen they could get away with in a 2000 euro laptop (which is just a middle of the road config, mind you). On basic models, you have a 6 bit screen. On higher-end ones, they have this security screen thingy that massacres the viewing angles even when it's off. If you move your head around the tiniest bit (say while listening to music) the colors will perceptibly change. The colors are atrocious. And they don't even hide it! The specs say 72% NTSC (not sRGB, which is much wider).

Then you have your usual suspects with cheap laptops: the cooler is an absolute joke, the fan developed a horrible noise in a few months. There's coil whine that drives you up a wall when connecting a USB-C monitor + power.

On the plus side, the analog headphone out is surprisingly good. I don't hear any background noise, there's no whine when moving the mouse, and the sound is similar to my Retina MBP on relatively high-end headphones.

It also works very well on Linux, I'd say it's even better than Windows: I've installed a fresh copy of Windows 11 and I can't get the camera to work. It works perfectly on Linux.

48. sobjornstad ◴[] No.31439190{5}[source]
I just took a stopwatch to mine and it spun for 10 seconds. In real life you would give it another whirl after a couple of seconds because it starts to slow down, but the short answer is clearly yes.
49. fendy3002 ◴[] No.31439236{4}[source]
Middle click is very useful to close tab, which the alternative is to move cursor to a much smaller close button.

Especially on some apps (iirc pgadmin) where the tabs has no close button, that we need to right click and choose a menu to close a tab.

50. beAbU ◴[] No.31439376{5}[source]
Yes. I have the previous gen Master MX. The scroll wheel is a solid metal flywheel. It has serious heft and continues spinning maybe 5-10 seconds after a good flick.

On mine, the horizontal wheel does not have this feature. Maybe the newer model does.

And like another poster mentioned, it has a detent when scrolling slowly like a traditional scrollwheel, that then mechanically disengages when flicked fast enough. You can configure this sensitivity in software, and even map one of the mouse buttons to disengage the detent, if you dont like the smart scroll feature.

Its seriously the best designed mouse I've ever used. It's clear logitech spent a lot of effort thinking about what makes a good mouse really good, and they implemented that in this mouse. Truly a flagship device, without cruft or unnecessary crap.

Battery life after about 4 years is so-so, so I keep a usb cable on my desk to plug it in when it runs low. I get about 2 weeks out of it?

Materials are also degrading a bit, it's surface is becoming sticky like many "velvet" finish plastics do, but its not at a point where it's gross to hold.

Its held up very very well after roughly 1000 work days of use. It's cost per day of use is basically 0.

replies(1): >>31440782 #
51. dorfsmay ◴[] No.31439500{3}[source]
How do you use your mouse in a car, on a plane, on the couch?
replies(1): >>31439568 #
52. xur17 ◴[] No.31439568{4}[source]
I mistyped - meant trackpoint not mouse. The maximum trackpoint speed on ubuntu is waay to slow, so I gave up on it.
53. hgomersall ◴[] No.31439978{3}[source]
Same here, though I have a key combination (ctrl-space) to toggle the trackpad.
54. hgomersall ◴[] No.31440031{4}[source]
Pasting from the primary buffer is surely the main use case for middle click?
55. rkagerer ◴[] No.31440101{4}[source]
Youch does nobody else go haywire that Fn and Ctrl keys are in the 'wrong' spots?
replies(2): >>31440144 #>>31440378 #
56. kybernetikos ◴[] No.31440132{5}[source]
I had problems with the Master 2, but my Master 3 has been very reliable.
57. csdvrx ◴[] No.31440135{4}[source]
That's what available now: except on the T25, the old layout is no longer found on modern Thinkpads.

This modern layout has advantages: for example, the space between the keys makes it more comfortable to use with nails, so I no longer have to keep them short.

replies(1): >>31440488 #
58. csdvrx ◴[] No.31440144{5}[source]
There's a bios option to swap them, and custom firmwares doing the same for the thinkpad bluetooth keyboard
replies(1): >>31441617 #
59. kikoreis ◴[] No.31440279[source]
I thought it was just me!!!
60. ziml77 ◴[] No.31440295{4}[source]
Similar story here. All the laptops I used had the trackpoint and I didn't want to give it up until I tried an MBP in 2012. The trackpad was miles better than any other trackpad I'd used. Other machines have gotten better trackpads now, though I still haven't tried one that is as good as the current MacBook trackpads. But at least I don't hate every moment of using non-Mac trackpads anymore.
replies(1): >>31444078 #
61. pmlnr ◴[] No.31440337{4}[source]
The HP's have 2 keys, not 3. The middle is the one you push to use the trackpoint to scroll with. Hp simply crippled it
replies(1): >>31442827 #
62. pmlnr ◴[] No.31440378{5}[source]
That is the correct one. FN first, ctrl next. See DEC, and IBM.
replies(1): >>31442225 #
63. cptnapalm ◴[] No.31440382{3}[source]
You can disable the trackpad in the BIOS? A whole new, better world has opened up to me! I hate trackpads.
64. Liskni_si ◴[] No.31440488{5}[source]
> This modern layout has advantages: for example, the space between the keys makes it more comfortable to use with nails, so I no longer have to keep them short.

Layout and the shape of keys are orthogonal concepts.

But yeah, you're right that there aren't many options these days, and the T25 is getting old. :-(

65. loosescrews ◴[] No.31440689{4}[source]
I have had similar experiences with the X1 Extreme. The biggest issue I have had is that the repair process almost always breaks something new. The first one spent so much time getting repaired that I actually bought a second one so that I could at least have one functional laptop. The second one is a newer generation, but the quality issues are similar.
66. evil-olive ◴[] No.31440694{4}[source]
here [0] is a teardown of the current generation compared to the previous, to show how much design and attention to detail goes in to them.

I was an MX Master 2 user for years, and bought a 3, along with an MX Keys [1] at the beginning of covid WFH. still going strong 2 years later, and I would buy both again in a heartbeat.

0: https://blog.bolt.io/logitech-mx-master-3-vs-2s/

1: https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/keyboards/mx-keys-wi...

67. evil-olive ◴[] No.31440782{6}[source]
> On mine, the horizontal wheel does not have this feature. Maybe the newer model does.

I have both the current model and the older one. the horizontal wheel has been improved a bit - it's larger, and they moved the side buttons so that it's harder to hit them accidentally when scrolling horizontally (see this [0] comparison pic from a teardown [1] that I also linked elsewhere in this thread)

but the "shifting" feature is still only for the main scrollwheel, not the horizontal one. in practice I've never found myself using horizontal scroll often enough to wish it had the same "flick" capability.

0: https://blog.bolt.io/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/side.png

1: https://blog.bolt.io/logitech-mx-master-3-vs-2s/

68. bitwize ◴[] No.31440897{4}[source]
The sense I'm getting is that my 2014 T450s was one of the last few "acceptable" ThinkPads.

If I need a new laptop, it will be a Framework.

69. bitwize ◴[] No.31440964{5}[source]
> (the latter I have never managed to consistently achieve on a trackpad).

Ever try an Apple trackpad?

replies(2): >>31443602 #>>31445514 #
70. eichin ◴[] No.31441537{5}[source]
Yeah, a modern update of the Sony Vaio P would be amazing...
71. rkagerer ◴[] No.31441617{6}[source]
Ah awesome!
72. wiml ◴[] No.31441897{3}[source]
I'm curious what your use of PrtSc is that is that important to you. I don't think I've pressed that key since the 1990s. Am I missing out?
replies(2): >>31442091 #>>31442236 #
73. ElijahLynn ◴[] No.31441917[source]
Discussion for trackpoint/touchstick here, in case you or others aren't aware of it yet > https://community.frame.work/t/any-chance-of-trackpoint/1026...
74. ElijahLynn ◴[] No.31441925[source]
Me too! And many others discussing here > https://community.frame.work/t/any-chance-of-trackpoint/1026...
75. ElijahLynn ◴[] No.31441931[source]
Same! And the first thing I did was check the Framework marketplace for a keyboard replacement with a touchstick/trackpoint. I am hoping we can just pop a ThinkPad keyboard in it with a mod.

There is a discussion here https://community.frame.work/t/any-chance-of-trackpoint/1026....

76. Macha ◴[] No.31442091{4}[source]
On Linux I have it bound to flameshot, which you can consider the equivalent of Snipping Tool on Windows or Cmd-Shift-4 on OS X.
77. csdvrx ◴[] No.31442225{6}[source]
Personally, I like it as it is, but I can understand someone preferring the control key in the bottom left (though I would suggest using Caps as Control, in which case having Fn on the easier to reach spot and therefore first would still make more sense)
78. zumu ◴[] No.31442229[source]
Short aside: any tips for becoming a trackpoint user?

I find it much more comfortable than the trackpad, but my curosr always seems so slow when it's not going way too fast. Is there special software tweaking I need?

EDIT: I forgot to mention I'm on Linux

replies(1): >>31442475 #
79. csdvrx ◴[] No.31442236{4}[source]
It's a key that's very useful on Windows for screenshotting.

Personally, I use it for various color inversion profiles (ex OLED: make all the dark greys pitch black, night time: black and red) + for ShareX.

80. viraptor ◴[] No.31442255{4}[source]
Had a similar one and the trackpoint was a pain for 2 reasons. The shape was inverted, so you always touched a raised edge rather than surface. And the cap started coming off after a few months of use. Not a fan of HP's solution.
81. whoisthemachine ◴[] No.31442298{4}[source]
Wow I just realized I had been using trackpoints completely wrong - as in using it like I would use a trackpad, by taking my hand off of the home row. Very neat!
replies(1): >>31449730 #
82. numpad0 ◴[] No.31442475[source]
Control Panel > Mouse > ThinkPad > Slow ---[]- Fast slider almost all the way to right

sudo sh -c "echo 240 > /sys/devices/platform/i8042/serio1/serio2/sensitivity"

This is separate to speed settings for mouse pointer

replies(1): >>31443396 #
83. NonNefarious ◴[] No.31442478[source]
And isn't Lenovo perpetrating a bunch of anti-customer, John-Deere-style lockdowns and rip-offs on their hardware?
84. apricot ◴[] No.31442569[source]
> collapsed arrows

Yes. Who ever thought making up and down arrow keys so small was a good idea? They are high usage keys, and every time I'm on a laptop keyboard like that, I cringe whenever I use the arrow keys.

In fact, the keyboard is the first thing I look at when I'm in the market for a laptop. Small arrow keys = pass, I won't even look at the specs or price.

85. numpad0 ◴[] No.31442575{3}[source]
Rumor is, some IBM sales rep somewhere at some point in history managed to put pointing stick into a procurement requirement for professional laptops, so to make only ThinkPads to be qualified. Many agencies are not capable of drafting good requirements on their own and such skewed requirements written by the winning contractor to exclude competitors are sadly common.

There is always a model or two in every laptop manufacturer's mobile workstation lineups with a pointing stick, for that reason. Not often is in consumer or non-workstation business laptops, and I was never impressed with one, but there always is one.

86. opan ◴[] No.31442827{5}[source]
There are some models like the EliteBook 8770W that have the middle mouse button.
87. geoka9 ◴[] No.31443396{3}[source]
On my X1 Carbon 6th, this helped but not much. I put up with a stiff trackpoint for couple years (that's how I depend on one :)), until it hit me! Sticking a folded piece of paper (or similar) into the base of the eraser lifts it up and makes it feel smooth as butter! Problem solved! I would give myself a Nobel prize for discovering this if I could!
replies(1): >>31443817 #
88. tie_ ◴[] No.31443510{4}[source]
Totally understandable. I'm a trackpoint junkie, but I also could not get to using it on an HP laptop from work. It felt completely gimped (and yes, having just 2 buttons was probably a part of it).
replies(1): >>31444157 #
89. tie_ ◴[] No.31443602{6}[source]
Ever tried playing something like (multiplayer) Quake with an Apple trackpad? I used to win online matches with the trackpoint. Once you get use to it, the difference in speed and precision is quite significant.
90. zumu ◴[] No.31443817{4}[source]
I'm also on an X1 Carbon 6th gen! I will try this out. Thanks much.
91. bigpeopleareold ◴[] No.31444078{5}[source]
When I was using Macbooks (the last time was around 2016-2017), I never deliberately used all the features of it, so I really don't know what is the fuss about it. I think they introduced things like 2-finger scrolling, which is really nice and ended up elsewhere. It makes using casual use a little easier, which causes me to still use it sometimes. (but I am getting used to using the TrackPoint for casual things too because the amount of control you have over things like scroll speed). My wife has a 2015 Macbook and the "click" sensor seems to have a problem. She got used to it though. But "clicking" is an option that can be turned off. However, when I use it, it is such a complete nuisance to use.
92. rhn_mk1 ◴[] No.31444105{3}[source]
> PrintScreen between right Alt and right Ctrl: very important too

Please don't. Unless you want users of language layouts that make use AltGr to suffer.

Imagine typing away a message, accidentally slipping your finger from AltGr onto the PrintScr (actually SysRq), and triggering a sysrq reboot in linux. Regularly.

It's a choice between triggering crashes _all the time_, or disabling sysrq and never being able to debug the legit ones.

replies(1): >>31451019 #
93. bigpeopleareold ◴[] No.31444107{4}[source]
I only used them on Thinkpads ... I can't imagine how they would work on HPs or Dells. And specifically, on older ThinkPads. I am typing on a T430s, but also have a x220 and a T470p. The latter feels a bit different, but I had to initially get used to it. For thinkpads at least, I definitely not have had a problem finding a proper acceleration curve.
94. bigpeopleareold ◴[] No.31444157{5}[source]
I would die a little inside (ok, maybe that's dramatic :D ) if I was presented a trackpoint-like device but didn't work properly. I had that once - an X1 Carbon 5th gen actually I was using temporarily, struggling to make that useful, because it was too tight (I feel like post-*30 models, you need to break them in, a lesson that I eventually learned) and it would float a lot.

One nice thing about many used ThinkPads at least: trackpoints are usually the one component that are brand new on the device :D

95. NikolaNovak ◴[] No.31445514{6}[source]
I have a 4 year old Macbook. Does that count?

And I'm ready to admit I am not an expert on it; my point is exactly that I am an expert on track point and it's awesome :-)

96. welfare ◴[] No.31447635{3}[source]
I just looked down on my laptop and my 2022 HP has a trackpoint, never used this feature though. HP Elitebook 830 G6.
97. philjohn ◴[] No.31449730{5}[source]
Aha! Happy to provide a TIL :)

That's really the killer feature of the trackpoint - especially for touch typists.

98. csdvrx ◴[] No.31451019{4}[source]
> Please don't.

Please do!

Because even with the most generous interpretation of your issue, it seems fully self-inflicted, by a lack of typing skills compounded by refusing to configure the keymap or the sysreq bitmask, and asking instead for that to become everyone problem by having the key moved!

> accidentally slipping your finger from AltGr onto the PrintScr

What about learning to touchtype? And until them, typing in a well lit room?

> It's a choice between triggering crashes _all the time_, or disabling sysrq and never being able to debug the legit ones.

That's a false dichotomy. You are not triggering crashes, you are instructing your computer to reboot (sysreq B) which it does.

It should not be blamed on the computer, but on your lack of attention, and the lack of adaptation, so I'd even call that a self inflicted problem.

If you can take the time to configure your laptop to use a non standard layout, you can certainly take the extra time to learn proper typing instead of bothering the vast majority of those who are happy with this layout.

If you can't take that time, you can certainly apply one of the many possible counter measures, like moving sysreq to another key (cf dumpkeys and loadkeys), or just disabling the sysreq reboot function (0 disables sysreq, 1 enables it, but you can have a finer control if you read the documentation, ex: 128 is the bitmask for the reboot/poweroff) which would let you debug the "legit ones" - though if your linux has legit crashes, you may have bigger problems!

replies(1): >>31455701 #
99. rhn_mk1 ◴[] No.31455701{5}[source]
> fully self-inflicted, by a lack of typing skills compounded by refusing to configure the keymap or the sysreq bitmask

So, git gud? Sorry, I'm not buying it. People have different motor skills, you know. You can't always make your body physically perfect.

Changing the mapping might work (although I doubt it, it's a deep kernel mechanism that probably avoids such complexity), but requires having the knowledge that it's even possible and how to do it. Sadly, laptops don't come with the instructions. And why should they? Machines should be made well in the first place.

Oh, and setting a mask doesn't help because b, c, e, i, k, o, r, u, all have nasty consequences.

replies(1): >>31460062 #
100. josephcsible ◴[] No.31455784{3}[source]
All of your attributes of a "thinkpad keyboard" are downsides that would make me less likely to buy it. Keyboards should be as close to 104-key ANSI as possible.
replies(1): >>31459542 #
101. csdvrx ◴[] No.31459542{4}[source]
> Keyboards should be as close to 104-key ANSI as possible.

Yes, bring on the numpad on a laptop... not!

Form determines function: ANSI 104 had its time, when we were using desktops!

Now except for gaming and CPAs, numpads have outlived their usefulness.

replies(1): >>31459645 #
102. josephcsible ◴[] No.31459645{5}[source]
I don't mean a laptop has to have all 104 keys. I mean the subset they do have should be arranged the same way that they are on ANSI 104. E.g., I want a laptop with keys up to 80% at https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:ANSI_Keyboard_Layout...
103. csdvrx ◴[] No.31460062{6}[source]
> So, git gud?

If if's bothering you as much as you said, YES, stop complaining, and start acting on your complaints!

I've already given you all the pointers.

Now I'll help you more if you need.

> Sorry, I'm not buying it.

Neither am I. I get the feeling you want to complain more than you want to actually solve your problem. But as this is HN, I'm giving your comment the most positive interpretation possible.

> People have different motor skills, you know. You can't always make your body physically perfect.

So you don't want to try or, due to physical limitations, can't train better fine motor skills to be on par with about 90% of the regular population? Not very plausible, but why not!

Still, this leaves remapping Sysrq or configuring the bitmask, so I'll guide you though the keymap fixing if you need (even if I hope I won't have to, and that you'll be able to learn by yourself with the right pointers)

> Changing the mapping might work (although I doubt it, it's a deep kernel mechanism that probably avoids such complexity),

With computers, there is no place for philosophical doubts: you try it, and note the results of the experiment: either it does work, or it doesn't work. And if it doesn't, you can make it do so by reading the code, understanding then changing it.

So first, did you try it? If not, why? If you did, what did you observe?

BTW if you didn't, let me remove some of your doubts: dumpkeys and loadkeys are all that you need to change the sysreq mapping: the "deep kernel mechanism" links an action with a key through a table, defined in software.

This is just like how the same key can trigger a Y or a Z (US vs German keyboards) - and yes, you can change that too if you don't like it.

To have a look at this tablet, outside X or Wayland (ex: chvt 1), do:

dumpkeys > current.map

Edit it with your favorite editor to move Sysrq to where you want ex (ex: Insert key?).

You can also add any other changes you want (like, keep both your alt as regular alt, and instead make something else the 3rd level key - say the right ctrl key?)

> requires having the knowledge that it's even possible and how to do it.

Yes, this is called having agency. But here, I gave you the knowledge! Do you have another complain/excuse? Or are you willing to try to fix the problem now?

BTW regarding "agency", I don't use Linux as a daily driver- I prefer Windows, not just because it's less elitist, but due to the better terminal options and the greater hackability of its GUI. You don't have to use Linux if you don't like it! There are many things I dislike in Linux myself.

> Sadly, laptops don't come with the instructions.

You'll find most of the instructions you want (and more!) on the Arch wiki.

But if it doesn't exist or if it's not accessible enough, what about writing some?

Personally, I'm preparing a tutorial to help people with a specific tablet (great hardware, but bad software and configuration OOB, so most people hated it, which I find sad)

Maybe you could do the same, as other people may be inconvenienced by the same problem you are having, and would benefit from your solution?

> And why should they

Because you or someone else (say me!) cares enough to want to hack they hardware to do their bidding? Because it fun?

> Machines should be made well in the first place.

Different people want different things.

Some tastes can't be reconciled.

> Oh, and setting a mask doesn't help because b, c, e, i, k, o, r, u, all have nasty consequences.

Do you really want/need me to also write your bitmask for you? Select the ones you won't want, and mask them out

But again, you should take the easy way out: just remap Sysrq to another key that's away from your fingers, and call it a day! You could have done this remapping in less than half the time it took you to write this complain!

replies(1): >>31472362 #
104. rhn_mk1 ◴[] No.31472362{7}[source]
> start acting on your complaints!

I just did: I raised an objection to a bad idea for anyone who might be misled by it. Also I won't buy a computer with this flaw.

> So first, did you try it? If not, why?

I did not, because I did not know how. I also don't want to know how to alter my computer to achieve a basic minimum of functionality, because a minimum is what is assumed. Either the OS or the hardware should have sane defaults.

> Different people want different things.

I suggest you remap your keys (when you use Linux) to fit your special need then ;)

replies(1): >>31473346 #
105. csdvrx ◴[] No.31473346{8}[source]
>> So first, did you try it? If not, why?

>I did not, because I did not know how.

Now you do

> I suggest you remap your keys (when you use Linux) to fit your special need then ;)

When there is no physical key, like to the left and right of the up arrow where pagedown and pageup would be, I can't invent them out of thin air.

replies(1): >>31473393 #
106. rhn_mk1 ◴[] No.31473393{9}[source]
There's typically the "emulate a right click" button or a Windows button in between AltGr and Ctrl. Those don't have the faults of a SysRq, so they seem like good candidates for a new hypothetical keyboard.