The new and upgraded Framework Laptop

Same. Everytime I get excited about Framework, Syste7m6, etc... and then get sad.

I fully understand I'm a vanishing minority, But trackpoint is such a productivity booster for me, and makes such amazing use of space in a laptop format, that it's a must-have (and again, I fully understand that those who don't use Trackpoint will have no comprehension of what am I going on about; I'm a grouchy quirky old man :).

Then there's other little things that may or may not be trackpad related - small function keys, lack of standard home/end/insert/del/pgup/pgdown cluster, and the collapsed arrows which I don't even understand - you have the room, it's right there, nothing is using it... why is everybody making up and down arrows functionally unusable (I want to blame Apple, but as Obi Wan said - who's the bigger fool, the fool, or the fool that follows :)

It’s almost worth getting a “gamer laptop” just to get full-sized up/down arrow keys.

> the collapsed arrows which I don't even understand - you have the room, it's right there, nothing is using it... why is everybody making up and down arrows functionally unusable (I want to blame Apple, but as Obi Wan said - who's the bigger fool, the fool, or the fool that follows :)

This so much!!

I miss PageUp and PageDown there so much I refuse to buy anything but thinkpads right now.

The last alternative brand was Dell, which adopted the stupidly huge Left and Right arrows, and that's even seen on customer line Lenovos now :(

I used to love my trackpoint, and swore by it, but I was unable to get my mouse to go fast enough on my latest X1 carbon, so I've sadly stopped using it..

When I was at IBM I had a mouse with a trackpoint for scrolling. It was pretty great. I miss being able to move and scroll at variable speeds.

https://www.microsoft.com/buxtoncollection/detail.aspx?id=12...

and a paper: https://www.microsoft.com/buxtoncollection/a/pdf/Zhai%20scro...

Trackpoint really is damn nice. I also find it hilarious when I disable the trackpad in the bios to avoid any accidental brushes and then someone else tries to use my laptop - its like watching a deer try to walk for the first time!

I taught myself just last year to use the trackpoint because I was curious. I turned it off at the BIOS, etc. just to make me use it exclusively. Once I got over the hump, I was surprised. I don't want keyboards anymore without it. I developed a strong muscle memory for it over the year. I'm a grouchy quirky old man, but when it comes to trackpoints, I am new to this quirk :D

It's not the same, but the Logitech MX Master is basically the current version of this.

It has two scrollwheels, one for vertical and one for horizontal. They have some interesting tech in them. When moved slowly they click with detents, like normal scrollwheels. But when you move the wheels more quickly they "unlock" to spin freely, you can scroll at a pretty high speed and with good accuracy.

Having had a trackpoint laptop since the 90's, the only thing that I found I could switch to when moving to a job that gave all engineers Mac's was the MBP track pad - the gestures and precision/feel just about made up for the loss of not having to move hands from the home row.

But yeah, sad that more laptops don't have trackpoints.

I looooooove this feature of the MX Master mice, but I went through 2 of them in two years. They do not seem particularly well-built.

Back in the late '90s, I worked for an inventor dealing with analog dome switches. We took a mouse that had a rocker for scrolling instead of a wheel and I reprogrammed it to "fake" scroll clicks faster or slower depending on how hard you pressed. You could scroll slow enough to read, or zoom to the end of a doc with really good control. Man I miss that mouse.

Is this on a thinkpad? My HP EliteBook has a track point and I haven't found any config that makes it usable. The tracking is either way too quick or way too slow. And the acceleration curve is either very steep or non-existent.

I've tried it on both Windows and Linux. I realize I'm not used to it, in the beginning I used to have a hard time with mice, too, so maybe it's just a question of habit.

For the moment, the only thing it does is leave a round trace on my screen whenever I close it...

Do the scroll wheels have "weight" to them? In other words, can you give it a good spin and let it keep spinning on its own momentum?

HPs still have dedicated pgup / home /etc in a column, to the right of backspace / enter / etc. But they've also adopted the stupid arrow cluster you describe.

Yep, the scrollwheels are metal so they have some heft and they do keep spinning.

I haven't used the MX Master, only very briefly tested a display unit at a store, but I do believe that it spun for a while. So I'd check a video review first if you're thinking of buying one.

I personally use their G(aming) series mice with their older manual, mechanical mechanism instead of the new electromagnetic one in the MX Master. The G mice spin for a while... 15 seconds after a solid flick.

I just took a stopwatch to mine and it spun for 10 seconds. In real life you would give it another whirl after a couple of seconds because it starts to slow down, but the short answer is clearly yes.

Yes. I have the previous gen Master MX. The scroll wheel is a solid metal flywheel. It has serious heft and continues spinning maybe 5-10 seconds after a good flick.

On mine, the horizontal wheel does not have this feature. Maybe the newer model does.

And like another poster mentioned, it has a detent when scrolling slowly like a traditional scrollwheel, that then mechanically disengages when flicked fast enough. You can configure this sensitivity in software, and even map one of the mouse buttons to disengage the detent, if you dont like the smart scroll feature.

Its seriously the best designed mouse I've ever used. It's clear logitech spent a lot of effort thinking about what makes a good mouse really good, and they implemented that in this mouse. Truly a flagship device, without cruft or unnecessary crap.

Battery life after about 4 years is so-so, so I keep a usb cable on my desk to plug it in when it runs low. I get about 2 weeks out of it?

Materials are also degrading a bit, it's surface is becoming sticky like many "velvet" finish plastics do, but its not at a point where it's gross to hold.

Its held up very very well after roughly 1000 work days of use. It's cost per day of use is basically 0.

How do you use your mouse in a car, on a plane, on the couch?

I mistyped - meant trackpoint not mouse. The maximum trackpoint speed on ubuntu is waay to slow, so I gave up on it.

Same here, though I have a key combination (ctrl-space) to toggle the trackpad.

I had problems with the Master 2, but my Master 3 has been very reliable.

Similar story here. All the laptops I used had the trackpoint and I didn't want to give it up until I tried an MBP in 2012. The trackpad was miles better than any other trackpad I'd used. Other machines have gotten better trackpads now, though I still haven't tried one that is as good as the current MacBook trackpads. But at least I don't hate every moment of using non-Mac trackpads anymore.

The HP's have 2 keys, not 3. The middle is the one you push to use the trackpoint to scroll with. Hp simply crippled it

You can disable the trackpad in the BIOS? A whole new, better world has opened up to me! I hate trackpads.

here [0] is a teardown of the current generation compared to the previous, to show how much design and attention to detail goes in to them.

I was an MX Master 2 user for years, and bought a 3, along with an MX Keys [1] at the beginning of covid WFH. still going strong 2 years later, and I would buy both again in a heartbeat.

0: https://blog.bolt.io/logitech-mx-master-3-vs-2s/

1: https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/keyboards/mx-keys-wi...

> On mine, the horizontal wheel does not have this feature. Maybe the newer model does.

I have both the current model and the older one. the horizontal wheel has been improved a bit - it's larger, and they moved the side buttons so that it's harder to hit them accidentally when scrolling horizontally (see this [0] comparison pic from a teardown [1] that I also linked elsewhere in this thread)

but the "shifting" feature is still only for the main scrollwheel, not the horizontal one. in practice I've never found myself using horizontal scroll often enough to wish it had the same "flick" capability.

0: https://blog.bolt.io/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/side.png

1: https://blog.bolt.io/logitech-mx-master-3-vs-2s/

Wow I just realized I had been using trackpoints completely wrong - as in using it like I would use a trackpad, by taking my hand off of the home row. Very neat!

> collapsed arrows

Yes. Who ever thought making up and down arrow keys so small was a good idea? They are high usage keys, and every time I'm on a laptop keyboard like that, I cringe whenever I use the arrow keys.

In fact, the keyboard is the first thing I look at when I'm in the market for a laptop. Small arrow keys = pass, I won't even look at the specs or price.

There are some models like the EliteBook 8770W that have the middle mouse button.

Totally understandable. I'm a trackpoint junkie, but I also could not get to using it on an HP laptop from work. It felt completely gimped (and yes, having just 2 buttons was probably a part of it).

When I was using Macbooks (the last time was around 2016-2017), I never deliberately used all the features of it, so I really don't know what is the fuss about it. I think they introduced things like 2-finger scrolling, which is really nice and ended up elsewhere. It makes using casual use a little easier, which causes me to still use it sometimes. (but I am getting used to using the TrackPoint for casual things too because the amount of control you have over things like scroll speed). My wife has a 2015 Macbook and the "click" sensor seems to have a problem. She got used to it though. But "clicking" is an option that can be turned off. However, when I use it, it is such a complete nuisance to use.

I only used them on Thinkpads ... I can't imagine how they would work on HPs or Dells. And specifically, on older ThinkPads. I am typing on a T430s, but also have a x220 and a T470p. The latter feels a bit different, but I had to initially get used to it. For thinkpads at least, I definitely not have had a problem finding a proper acceleration curve.

I would die a little inside (ok, maybe that's dramatic :D ) if I was presented a trackpoint-like device but didn't work properly. I had that once - an X1 Carbon 5th gen actually I was using temporarily, struggling to make that useful, because it was too tight (I feel like post-*30 models, you need to break them in, a lesson that I eventually learned) and it would float a lot.

One nice thing about many used ThinkPads at least: trackpoints are usually the one component that are brand new on the device :D

Aha! Happy to provide a TIL :)

That's really the killer feature of the trackpoint - especially for touch typists.