Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

I did the opposite and found the us much better. Pay and opportunities are infinitely better, people are friendlier, having a car is much easier and more convenient.

I've done it, and it was one of the best decisions of my life.

WHERE: I'm Australian, moved to LA when I was 18 and lived there for 15 years. Then, I moved from Los Angeles to Germany (Duesseldorf), and then to Vienna, Austria.

WHAT SACRIFICE: No more In 'n Out Burger, no more decent Mexican/TexMex food, no more LA food trucks. These are literally the only things I miss about the USA. Literally every other aspect of life has improved massively by leaving the USA - healthcare, food, social life. For the first 4 years I walked to work, ffs. Now I ride a bicycle in combination with the best public transportation options in the world (Austria, Vienna).

GAINED: I've completely lost the brain-dead nationalist mentality that had infected me in my earlier life, I've gained Immense amounts of respect for humanity, I've learned German, I've experienced professional software and hardware development away from Silicon Valley standard practices, and I get to see the USA from outside the decadent, rose-colored bubble from which it is usually experienced. I honestly wish I'd left sooner - every time I go back I'm reminded just how much of a shithole the USA really is ..

Plus, living and loving in Europe is just great. There is no greater joy than a trip through the Balkans for a week adventure, or maybe a jaunt to Spain or southern France. Just being able to travel an hour in any direction and being immersed in absolutely foreign culture is a joy like no other. Definitely a great way to ground oneself.

EDIT: The weather was pretty good in LA. But, still: Americans.

Hey! I'm back in the US but my wife and I moved from SF to Amsterdam for 3 years. We moved with our tech job there and ended up eventually quitting and doing our own company.

- Where do you live? SF -> Amsterdam

- What's the biggest sacrifice you had to make (i.e. pay, housing, friends, etc.) I was shocked when my HR department told me our salaries would pretty much be cut in half. I was also furious because I was going to be working remotely for the same team, doing the same work and would bring the same value. We still did it, and honestly, I felt richer over there. Housing is much cheaper both renting and buying. Groceries felt like no matter what we'd buy, it'd be 20E. Even after 3 years we'd be surprised at how cheap it is. Activities, restaurants, etc are all much cheaper too.

We left a bunch of friend behind obviously but made friends there. Like most expats, mostly other expats through work and not a lot of locals.

Weather sucks.

No amazon and it sucks not to have it when you are used to buying everything and getting it the next day. Also, probably because of the amount of countries there are, buying things online seems to be shipped more often from other countries and the delivery times are usually longer.

- What have you gained? As mentioned, despite /2 our salary, we felt much richer, much more comfortable. When we quit our jobs we felt comfortable not making a lot of money because even our mortgage there was cheap. Working for a US tech company still put us way above the average income. Also, like in most of EU, great healthcare and other benefits.

Amsterdam in particular is great for biking/walking, it's truly a very nice city except for the terrible weather. We still talk about how we miss our lives there, but would never move back because of the weather, especially compared to the bay area.

I think the TLDR of our experience was that EU was just more chill, more comfortable, a bit broader in terms of culture, less grind less work. I was so happy about where i'm at in Amsterdam, and as soon as we got back to the US, something, I'm not sure what, made me get back on that hedonic treadmill and grind again for more more more and more.

I'd recommend it :)

I can't answer all these questions, but I'm doing this right now. Moving from Denver, CO -> Berlin, Germany. I start in May. I'm taking about a 50% pay cut on paper (for a Senior Software Engineer position), although what's interesting is Berlin has a lower cost of living, and in particular rental prices are actually reasonable. My plan is for this to be a ~5 year thing, just because it would be hard to leave my family. I already know I'm going to miss gaming with friends online due to the time difference.

> Pay and opportunities are infinitely better

...if you're lucky enough to be among the privileged.

I was planning to move the other way before Covid - from Sweden to California. It's much less likely now as I have a stable position and my partner lost her job in the US.

Mainly the US has many benefits:

- Much, much higher salaries - like 2-3x higher than Western Europe _before_ income tax!

- Much larger houses for the price. i.e. you can have a big house with room for hobbies or children rather than just a small flat.

- Lower prices on a lot of fixed-price goods - cars, electronics, fuel, electricity, natural gas, etc.

- Lower income and sales tax so you can save for a property and retirement. This is really tough in Europe, the sort of Tech FIRE culture doesn't exist due to that - wealth is primarily inherited.

The downsides are:

- It's a necessity to drive, but at least outside the big cities it's a lot easier than Europe overall (big, wide, straight roads and automatic cars).

- Healthcare is tied to your employer so it can be incredibly risky when moving as an immigrant since until you get a Green Card, you are tied to the one employer (good luck negotiating a raise!). Note that in most Tech companies, the health insurance gives you better coverage than public systems in Europe (e.g. covering dentistry and annual checkups).

- Less stability in employment - at-will employment, lower unemployment payments (except vs. the UK), no trade unions in Tech.

- Safety in some areas wrt. gun crime, etc. - you have to choose where you live and work very carefully.

- Backwards in some technology (online payments, card payments, digitisation of government services vs. the UK and Scandinavia for example).

A main decision point would be if you have kids. Europe is great to move to if you've already saved a lot in the US, can move to Europe and buy a house outright, get permanent residency and then have children and benefit from better paternal leave and even universal child benefit payments (Kindergeld/Barnbidrag, etc.)

Whereas if you are child-free, and don't already have enough savings to buy property, it's going to be harder to achieve that in Europe IMO.

One thing expats definitely have to do is readjust their expectations about cost of living and relative expenses. While the payroll for your average European tech guy is nowhere near the stellar heights of the SV bro's, the buying power in Europe is at a level higher than you might expect. Whereas, for a single night out in SoCal I'd spend $100 - $150, dinner movie and drinks - here in Vienna I'd get through just as much of an evening blast for less than 1/3rd of that figure.

You won't be buying million-dollar mansions on a European programmers salary, but then maybe you'll find less materialist goals in the European context .. just being able to take a train-ride anywhere is a vast improvement.

Respectfully, this is HN, and most people who are looking on this thread for advice are indeed privileged. I don't think it's an unreasonable default assumption.

What do you expect? This is HN, full of tech folks making ridiculous salaries.

We've thought occasionally about going someplace else, but these days it does seem like you're trading one set of problems for some other set of problems. Of course, there may be situations where that tradeoff becomes worth it, if the problems you have are big enough.

This is completely true. And also, if money feels like it could be an issue, and you are coming from the US with a US network, it's still pretty easy to find contracting work with your US-based network at US rates. That's what we did once we quit our jobs and I was pretty much working 2 days/week.

Was it always intended to be a limited (3 year) trip, of would you consider permanently moving there, if it was made possible?

I'm just outside London, moved here to marry my English wife from Vegas. I work part time doing basic IT for a US law firm due to health issues after heart surgery, and Yankee dollars are worth jack shit here - I'm not making serious tech industry money, but over here it's barely enough to survive on.

Housing is always smaller than you'd get in (at least the western) US for the same price, and I'd bet that's true pretty much everywhere in Europe. Speaking the same language is useful, but Covid has made it hard to make friends or do much.

Despite its reputation, I find that Europe is far more provincial than the US when it comes to food - a lot of stuff you think of as ubiquitous in the West will be "foreign" food and harder 48 to find. (And if you like tacos, stay on that side of the pond.)

Benefits: it's a lot quieter and generally less dangerous than the US. The NHS is absolutely amazing and you'll never want to deal with the American system ever again. People tend to be less aggressive.

From an entrepreneurial standpoint I'm sure it's much harder to get up and running, but I'm old enough to not care anymore. If I could work legally for a UK startup or tech firm doing basic dev I'd be happy enough and well-paid enough to never feel the urge to start my own ragged little thing again.

It is colder in most of Europe than the US, in my experience (not just living here but traveling extensively in my life). If you're a Cali kid, you will miss the sunlight, especially in the winter. It's like a fucking Joy Division video here from October through April. :-D

I think if my wife and I could afford to split our time between here and Vegas, we would. But that's just not in the cards right now.

But hey, at least they're not on the brink of civil war here and the curry is good.

A nice Youtube series comparing cities and lifestyles with Netherlands/Europe and Northern America.

https://www.youtube.com/c/NotJustBikes

Good example how different life is for example for kids in The Netherlands compared to USA/Canada. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul_xzyCDT98

How does LA and Vienna compare to Australia?

Salaries are far higher in the US in any professional field - engineering, tech, medicine, law, finance... even truck driving.

Just curious: how long since you moved out of USA? How long it took to learn German well enough (in your personal opinion) to integrate well?

I'm sure others will cover the shorter-term aspects. I'll add that, particularly if you're not young or have a family, it wouldn't hurt to consider the fact that you will probably have a great time for the first N years, but there might be a slump when you realize that you will probably never really integrate and will have a smaller social circle because of it, in a place where people seem to have smaller casual groups of friends, in general. I live in Switzerland, which is particularly harsh on this front - I do not hope to really integrate and accept that as a cost of the other benefits of being here - maybe my grandchildren will. I think it's fair to say that in America, you're American a lot faster.

Oh, that's another thing: while salaries in Europe might be sub-par by American standards, subcontractor values are exceptionally comparable to American standards. That is to say, if you can find subcontractor-style/freelance work in Europe, you can expect to make revenues on par with American standards.

Its just the employment laws that make half your paycheck disappear every month. But, don't worry, when you need healthcare you won't be going anywhere near a bankruptcy procedure. I broke my arm a few years back and needed reconstructive surgery that would have cost me multiple $100,000+'s in the USA - whereas here in Austria, even unemployed, I was covered and did not have to pay a dime.

> No amazon and it sucks not to have it when you are used to buying everything and getting it the next day.

Bol.com is the Dutch Amazon with quick delivery. And Amazon.nl launched in March 2020 but is worse for most needs here.

I don’t know how much of the US you experienced, but LA is hardly representative of the country.

True. But if we're talking software engineering, everyone posting here is probably "privileged" in that regard.

Let me just take this moment to say, holy shit what a fascinating time we all live in and what a happy accident it was that I stumbled into software engineering in this particular era.

I'm not aware of a recent time in history when you could get what amounts to a doctor's salary without the lengthy schooling, rigorous training, certification.

- UK (but I also lived in Spain & Italy for a bit)

- Largest sacrifice is not visiting family as often

- Came here because my wife is English

The UK is close enough to the US that things seem almost normal, but lots of subtly different things. The biggest thing is the culture, the English tend to be quieter, more reserved, and that manifests in a lot of different ways.

I speak Spanish, but not Italian. Italy was very difficult to find housing and communicate, Spain was a bit easier, but Spanish culture is very different than US culture and had some very surprising things. It would be good to be familiar with any culture you dive into.

Northern Europe tends to have a larger percentage of English speakers, so basic day to day things are easier to do (like finding housing).

The most difficult thing is probably a bit of "outsider" feeling and the language barrier in other countries, but there are lots of Americans in the UK to help ease that, and UK culture is easier to get used to than some of the others, especially if you have an English partner

>No amazon and it sucks not to have it when you are used to buying everything and getting it the next day.

In NL there are are multiple similar companies (Coolblue, Bol.com) which offer next day delivery on everything and even same day delivery in the major cities (i.e. including Amsterdam) on some things.

Amazon.nl has also been here for a couple of years (again with same day delivery), and you have been able to order from Amazon.de (again, with same day delivery) for many years.

Australia is a different dimension altogether - you have a lot of the trappings of Western (US/European) culture, but none of the advantages of access to a free market. Personally, I can't stand Australian culture, nor American either these days - which isn't to say I'm launching into an adopted German/Austrian stance, just that .. being away from these lands for a decade at least in each case, I started to see the shine wear off long, long ago.

Quality of life is pretty high in Australia, though, I have to admit. Nothing quite like hitting the beach after work - which I did a few times in LA, only to get a horrendous infection. But, still, I am lucky enough to choose my path and I am for sure never going back to Australia to live. Or, LA/USA.

> No amazon and it sucks not to have it when you are used to buying everything and getting it the next day.

Of course there's Amazon in NL. But more importantly, there's also bol.com and Cool Blue, which are better. Or at least less shitty.

The first points are salient. The last point is interesting, since a car is generally much more required in the US, yes it is easier and more convenient to have a car in the US, as well as a buttload cheaper, but life without a car is (generally) a lot less easy or convenient.

I moved to Germany as well and self taught German to a high B2 level in the 15 months before moving. That was enough where I was able to be conversationally fluent within 3 months of arrival

When I self taught, I primarily used Assimil and Pimsleur daily for the first six months. After completing those programs, I continued with the daily study (that’s the most important part!) and used Easy German the YouTube channel, watched a bunch of German shows, and worked on speaking just by narrating / describing random things and looking up words as needed.

20 years - I left just after 9/11, during which period I witnessed the USA collectively shitting itself, and during which I decided to play no part in the USA's continued economic survival. Far better to have moved to Germany and get things happening in a country not inclined to blood-lust because it was finally attacked the way it had been attacking countries, with impunity, for decades prior. The German culture's proclivity for peace-making, and especially on the subject of forgiveness, far outweighs any of the gung-ho American enthusiasms that might be fashionable ..

Honestly, it took me 5 years to feel comfortable speaking fluent German - mostly because Germans just refuse to correct German-speaking expats, instead choosing to switch to their English ..

What do you mean by integrate? As in, it's harder to find friends? Or that there's cultural issues barring you from being as close friends as you would someone from the U.S.?

Not from the US but from another country in the Americas. Here is a non-exhaustive list of things to take into consideration:

- Social life. Yes, modern technology makes it easier than ever to keep touch with friends from across the globe, but you need to expect to lose some relationships there. Not all friendships can survive the distance. The time zone difference also makes it annoying to keep in touch (e.g. you will be finishing a day's work and wanting to get in touch with friends, but their day has just started).

- Transportation. Now I don't know how you feel about cars but this was a huge win for me. I have driving and public transportation in Europe is usually very good. My driver's license has actually expired a few years back and I do not miss it. - Compensation. You simply won't find jobs that pay as much as the ones you can find in Silicon Valley (or perhaps in the major American cities). This won't necessarily be all that base. See my next point;

- Reasonably good public services in general. This will of course vary between countries, but you can expect to find reasonably good public services all around Europe. Healthcare is included in this but it can sometimes be a bit cumbersome to get an appointment with the right kind of doctor (you need to first go through a general practitioner who will refer you to a speciality). This can be mitigated however. See next point;

- Cheaper healthcare in general. Even if you opt for the convenience of private healthcare, you can expect to find it waaaay cheaper than in the US. Your job with also offer you health insurance which will cover most of your expenses making having access to private healthcare really affordable.

- Job safety. I guess this varies with the state you live in, but in Europe you are likely to find that the labour laws work more in your favour than in the US. This can paradoxically get annoying for you in a few very particular situations, but all in all, it's nice to feel safe this way.

- Homesickness is real and there's not much you can do about it. You will long for your home, for that old group of friends you used to hang out with, for that spot you used to go when you needed some time for yourself. Also, seeing the people you left behind moving on with their lives will feel weird.

- You will gain a lot of safety. Now I have no idea where in the US you are, but I bet that a somewhat good neighbourhood in Europe will be safer. I came from a particularly dangerous place (doubt you will find a place as dangerous in the US) so this was a huge win for me.

- You will come to appreciate a different kind of life than what you are used to. I don't know how to explain this, but the way of life in Europe is very different from the one in the Americas. Life goals and such are all very different. This will of course vary from country to country.

- You will come to appreciate a lot of things about the US that you didn't appreciate before. I guess this is just a natural consequence of gaining perspective. Nowhere is perfect and nowhere is fully bad.

> brink of civil war

I think that might be overstated.

> NHS is absolutely amazing

I've read and heard that for a non-emergency appointments, the wait could sometimes be months. Is that also overstated?

I grew up in an American colony; the Canal Zone. We had our own schools and were taught U.S. curriculum and about the U.S. I was a rabid nationalist. I had never lived in the U.S. until I went to college but had visited it. Ever since coming to the U.S. I slowly became more and more liberal and less and less nationalistic. The myths I was taught about the U.S. did not withstand my experience of the country.

Everything is so spread out and car centric. Our towns and cities are concrete jungles with massive amounts of parking lots that are rarely used. It’s very hard to live where you can walk to a grocery store. We are a nation of building dwellers using giant vehicles to take us from one building to another one. And the food; massive amounts of added sugar and fruit that is tasteless. Addicted to crappy fast food, lonely, and under exercised. Major changes are desperately needed.

Hearing that you only lived in LA makes your take on the US very partial and flawed.

LA has a reputation even within the US of being what you describe as a "shithole."

I lived in Germany for years, the former east, and it would be unfair to call Germany a "shithole" based on my own experience in the former Soviet bloc, which has struggled both pre and post reunification due to Communist rule.

I'm in Berlin and feel fully integrated here. Whether or not that's possible really depends on location, there's many in Europe where it absolutely is.

You usually lose your health insurance in Austria after about 30 weeks of unemployment... so not sure what you are talking about.

https://www.ams.at/arbeitsuchende/arbeitslos-was-tun/geld-vo...

I did the opposite as a child, and moved from the Netherlands to the US when I was eleven. Even then I realized how massively dependent America is on cars, which was properly disappointing for a kid who previously had a ton of personal freedom on his bike. This carried into adulthood when a study abroad experience showed me how massively disappointing public transport is in the US.

I strongly recommend watching the Not Just Cars youtube channel to understand the issues of US travel infrastructure.

Isn't that the plot of Jack Reacher?

I teached in a forgein language it took me 8-12 months to be able to give classes in the native language. German is rated at 750 hours on the FSI scale, which seems a bit much in my experience but that is personal.

https://www.state.gov/foreign-language-training/

Not the OP, but Europeans are fairly tribal and "becoming" an Austrian or Czech isn't the same as becoming an American. An expat who speaks the language and gained citizenship will be known as "someone who has the Austrian/Czech/German" passport. Only the kids who speak without accent will probably be fully embraced as natives.

In my case, I am a native Czech who speaks flawless Czech, but some people actually refuse to acknowledge me as a Czech on account of my Bulgarian surname. (Funnily some of them cannot even write properly, but hey, they are Nováks or Kučeras and I am not.) Not a majority, but this kind of tribalism is more widespread here than in countries that were founded on mass immigration.

Me! I grew up in Ohio and live in Hungary. The biggest sacrifice has been a native English speaking community around me. Virtually everyone I know in Hungary speaks fluent English, and I learned Hungarian, but there's still a big gap when it comes to the ability to feel intimately understood and connected with my peers. But I've gained a language, an amazing and very livable captial city (great public transport, amazing coffee shops, coworking spaces, parks, hiking, boating and museums), an extremely affordable lifestyle (since I still have a US-based income), an EU passport, and countless other things. For me, one of the nicest things currently is that there's a lot more trust in society and muted culture wars. People in public are more peaceful and reasonable, and there's very little fear of getting cancelled over political disagreements. Not saying it's perfect, and there are still political dramas going on, it just doesn't infect daily life as much.

> It's like a fucking Joy Division video here from October through April. :-D

So people used to the Pacific Northwest would fit right in.

Speaking in broad strokes, America is culturally closer to Australia than Vienna.

doing a similar thing this summer, moving from nyc to berlin

Being able to go on a road trip and end up in a different culture sounds awesome. I do that often in California, but there are only so many places you can go.

Moved to Oslo, Norway in 2019.

By far the biggest sacrifices are family, friends and social network.

However, the opportunities for growth and learning far outweigh the cons.

Staying connected with people in different time zones can be challenging, but technology provides so many solutions.

For example I use FaceTime to talk with family. It doesn’t cost anyone anything (if they are connected to WIFI) and I don’t have to deal with the cost for international calls.

Building a new social network is hard. Meeting people (especially now) is hard. You will want to dedicate a large portion of time to put yourself in environments that can allow you to meet people, who will hopefully become friends.

The growth and learning opportunities are life changing and I think it is certainly worth trying to live and work abroad for a couple of years.

I can try to answer any questions or clarify if anyone has any more questions.

Does Rust or Go count?

> Americans are an unimpressive, vain and ugly people - who admittedly know how to sell things

Replace Americans with any other nationality and see how offensive this sounds.

Only if you haven't worked anywhere for 6 months, whereas I have worked almost every month I've lived in Europe, and only had my accident between jobs. For a lot of Americans, this would have been a dire, life-changing event. Europeans don't understand just how dangerous that can be in the USA.

I’ve found Germans to be very humble and accommodating to people that try to speak the language. I would know; I’m still terrible at it. But might be different depending on city etc.

LA is representative of everything that sucks about the USA: excessively expensive housing, high crime, car culture and implicit racism. It’s quite clear that the Australian who is attempting to describe the USA as a whole actually has a very narrow view of the country.

> It’s very hard to live where you can walk to a grocery store.

Very hard seems like an exaggeration. More expensive, maybe, but millions of low-income people also do it.

I didn't have a car for most of my twenties, and the majority of my social group didn't either. Living in a more spread out area of the US is a choice-- one that comes with benefits, but still a choice.

> The German culture's proclivity for peace-making ...

Oh boy, this gave me a good chuckle. Thanks for that.

> The German culture's proclivity for peace-making

I had hitherto been unaware of this proclivity, thanks for educating us all.

Moved from Seattle to Munich, Germany a few years ago.

Biggest sacrifices: Pay is kind of a huge one. There are very few companies (even global ones) that pay the same in Europe as they do in the US. If I moved back to the US with my current company, I would get a ~70k/year increase in salary. Social situation is the other big one. It's hard to ever feel like you totally fit in as an expat.

Biggest gains: Quality of life is generally higher - food is better (quality, not taste, Munich's food scene kind of sucks), public transportation is better, healthcare is largely better (although again, a little weird in Germany). 6 weeks of vacation as a baseline in most places and unlimited sick leave. Generally more of an emphasis on work/life balance and taking time for yourself.

> Despite its reputation, I find that Europe is far more provincial than the US when it comes to food

That might be an external reputation, but it wouldn't be one that Europeans would have. People forget that Europe isn't a country, but a collection of different countries, all with long histories, and long histories means a lot of regional differences even _within_ countries.

> It is colder in most of Europe than the US,

I think people forget how far north Europe is: Paris is further north than Seattle. For how far north everything is, Europe is positively _balmy_!

> It's like a fucking Joy Division video here from October through April.

And that's why, especially in Northern Europe, a lot of the culture is around, for want of a better term, coziness: it's only a little to do with the cold, and everything to do with the dark.

To be fair, if I lived in la, I'd hate America too.

The wait is really months.

Also the quality of the NHS is pretty bad. The NHS being great is the usual state-backed propaganda you can hear in a lot of other European countries to justify spending all that tax money on healthcare.

Just from my personal experience: They skipped some safety measures they were supposed to follow during a birth delivery, they dealt terribly with one of my newborns after birth, they recommended removing 4 teeth of a 2 year old (we went private and all his teeth are fine and have been properly cleaned), they said that what we thought was a cavity was just a "discolouration" (it was a cavity, we dealt with it privately).

Luckily most decent employers pay private insurance (BUPA is very popular).

Drive fifty miles out from the suburbs of your hometown, sit down at a diner, and you can have something different. It might end with the cringeyness of the Top Gear guys, but it's there.

Seattle is further south than Paris, so make of that what you will!

So I'm Australian but I also lived in Europe for 4 years and I'm currently in my 12th year in the US so I feel like I can add something to this.

I moved to the US because the earning potential as a software engineer is simply so much higher than anywhere else, it's ridiculous. Compared to Australia in particular where up until 2003 or so the standard of living was exceedingly high. But now the cost of living in Australia, particularly in local earning potential terms, is actually awful.

So, Europe. I lived in 3 places (the UK, Switzerland, Germany). All of these places are different and that's the first thing you should know. The UK isn't Italy. Spain isn't Estonia. Many non-Americans have this view that the US is all one place. Anyone who lives here knows that's not true. LA isn't Omaha. NYC isn't Kansas. Europe is no different. In some ways this gap is even wider because there are many language barriers too.

The UK is a hybrid between continental Europe and the US. I found working there to be horrible. High cost of living, low (compared to the US) earning potential and the whole tech recruitment industry there is the worst I've ever experienced. I lived in London in the early 2000s and it was expensive then. It's like 2-3x that now. Unreal.

Even somewhere like Germany isn't homogenous. NRW isn't Bavaria which isn't Berlin or the former East.

I'd say the biggest thing is this: in the US there is a pervasive fear that your entire existence could be wiped out. Worse, many feel like many others actively seek this destruction. Obviously healthcare is one cause here but I think it goes deeper. America, particularly Corporate America, is very dog eat dog. Tech is a little better than this but not by much.

I'd say this is partially true in the UK but less so in continental Europe. Like I never found anyone questioning your "loyalty" to the company (for example) if you took a vacation. it was actually expected. There was less of people telling you how to live your life and feeling like you were telling them how to live theirs.

Don't get me wrong: there are rules you need to live by, more than most Americans will be used to (eg you'll be in for a shock when you try and figure out where, when and how to recycle anything in Switzerland or Germany).

The best way I can describe this is that the default position for anything in the US, the UK and Australia is you can do whatever you want unless it's expressly forbidden. Continental Europe is the opposite: you're only allowed to do what's expressly allowed. This makes society function but many Americans will chafe against this.

Houses and apartments will be way smaller in Europe than Americans are used to. You will need to use public transportation. If you try and drive everywhere then unless you live somewhere rural you will have a bad time. Many European city-dwellers get by just fine with no car at all.

If you have kids they won't have to do active shooter drills in schools. That's a uniquely American problem.

What you gain by living in any under culture is you realize how many of the things you believe aren't universal. They're just arbitrarily chosen norms. This can apply to the smallest of things like when you can go shopping and what sort of shop you need to find something (eg alcohol is only sold in selection locations in Australia but in the UK every supermarket and off-license will sell it).

What you should gain is some perspective that working like a dog because you need that health insurance and you've decided you need to save $500,000 per child to put them through college isn't universal. It's not even normal.

As far as social aspects go, this varies a lot. For example, I found the Swiss Germans to be extremely aloof (to non-Swiss). I found Germans (at least in the northwest) to be incredibly friendly. The UK is a mixed bag. London in s rat race and you'll be judged on what you have way more than most other places. Londoners will reduce you to the postcode you live in (eg "she's so SW7").

The distances are really small. You can get really far really quickly. This doesn't really apply to the UK because the airports are awful. In Zurich by comparison I left work at 5:10 for a 6pm flight once and was at my destination by 7:30.

In this era where remote work is growing, particularly if you're in tech, it's a good time to try it and see what you think.

> Being able to go on a road trip and end up in a different culture sounds awesome. I do that often in California, but there are only so many places you can go.

You can take the train, no need to drive even better!

I lived in Dublin IE for a year (mid-2017 -- mid-2018), on temporary assignment from my US-based position. I relocated from Florida with my wife and teenage son, who attended a public school and seems to have enjoyed the experience overall. We spent a fair amount of our free time traveling around Ireland itself, the UK, and the continent, which we would not have done nearly as long or as frequently from the US. I enjoyed the experience very much, and would definitely consider making a longer-term move if the opportunity were to arise.

> I've read and heard that for a non-emergency appointments, the wait could sometimes be months. Is that also overstated?

Depends on where you are. I lived in the UK until last August and am now in the US. When I lived in London and Oxford I found the wait times to be very quick - in Oxford I could get non-emergency appointments the same day, possibly due to the high number of GPs and University hospitals. In London it was same week for everything I ever had an issue with. I believe in the less well-off areas, especially in the North of the country, there are areas with far lower staff numbers so the waiting time inflates. Worst-case scenarios in worst-case areas do have multiple-month waiting times nowadays.

I moved to Europe from the Midwest near the beginning of my career (20 years ago).

It's very difficult to compare things like housing, social life and salary without knowing where you're coming from and where you're considering going. Countries in Europe have GDPs per capita ranging from under $5,000/year to over $100,000/year.

Really one of the few things you can say context-free is: you'll have more vacation in virtually any European country.

It's also very likely the healthcare, social systems (unemployment, day-care, etc.) and public transit will be saner. But again, you're comparing two very large, diverse places, and it's hard to reason about them in such generalities.

Seriously considered moving to London around Oct 2019 (WeWork Waterloo). But am glad I stayed US based. Still maintain contact with many US ex-pats in UK & EU. Very few of them have cut all ties to their native homeland. And if you ask them to be honest, they will admit to making "emergency runs" back to the states several times a year for everything from pharmaceuticals to tacos to extramarital affairs. Europe is civilized. America is a wilderness. That is sort of the common consensus. But I personally enjoy being in pristine Nature. It's a blank canvas on which to build a New World ;)

> You won't be buying million-dollar mansions on a European programmers salary

You won't be buying any decent apartment/house unless you move outside of city, buy a car and let go of all the benefits that comes with living in a European city.

I think this depends a lot on the culture. I've found (in Barcelona) that it was hard to integrate initially due to language barriers and lack of an existing local network to bootstrap from, but over time those issues have disappeared. 6 years in now, my social circle here is far larger and more diverse than my network in London where I was before.

You do need to somehow actively engage yourself with the community though to make this work. Strongly recommend working from a coworking as much as possible. It forces you to frequently meet new people, gives you day-to-day language practice, and really helps to build a network of small connections that eventually power your social life long-term.

I moved to UK from Europe and I wouldn’t really say NHS is convenient. It is universal healthcare and you are not facing a bankruptcy most of the time in case of a health condition. Preventative and diagnosis treatments are so slow. In case I need to see a GP, i must try reaching them at 8ish in the morning otherwise they will simply ignore you and tell, call tomorrow.

I moved from NYC to Berlin about a decade ago, in my mid 20s. I'm never going back and I'm glad I made this call back then. I would say the older you are the harder it is to adjust. I had a blast, while people I know who moved in their 30s have it much tougher.

I miss America's food and diversity and dynamism. It took being here to learn that those things are real. I also miss true deep wilderness, something much rarer in Western Europe.

What have I gained? A saner, simpler, more human-scale life. Pleasure. Security. Not having to hustle. Most of the misery I see in my friends and family in the US has material causes that barely exist here. Especially everything having to do with young children.

> Also the quality of the NHS is pretty bad. The NHS being great is the usual state backed propaganda you can hear in a lot of other European countries.

Not really. The NHS itself and the various NHS trusts have been continuously drained of funding over the past few decades. The NHS runs on a shoestring.

If you want things to improve, Tory cuts need to be rolled back.

Hey there French/American here I’ve moved from nyc to puerto Rico and in the past two years I’ve been in Estonia. AMA

The wait for non emergency treatment on the NHS can certainly be long, and COVID has made that worse. But if you're a software developer you can afford to buy or be provided decent private cover to buy your way round the queue - and since the NHS is there to cover all the difficult cases, the private insurance is much cheaper and far less likely to engage in scammy billing.

Private health insurance is a bit of a scam for anything serious in the UK though - they don't have the ability to do anything out of the ordinary or complex and send you to the NHS hospitals when they are out of their depth.

I think you’re getting a bit too caught up with wether it’s possible to walk to the grocery store for most Americans.

I think you can agree that in most places, if you are walking to get groceries, you are either living in a well to do area, or you are forced to because you can’t afford a car, and it isn’t a pleasant experience.

For me it was most important to get books in my field in german, read them slowly and learn all the buzzterms and experssion. Some books you can read without really understanding them, e.g. some best selling paper back without any weight too it. I haven't worked in Germany but it's a perfect country to learn by reading books

The downside is, Berlin is not really integrated into Germany.

> at least they're not on the brink of civil war here

I realized that this answer might be pretty biased after reading this inaccurate statement

Their comment was incredibly mild, and also accurate. Ironic that you're trying to convince people that Europeans are humble and kind.

Vienna is one of the nicest and wealthiest cities in Europe.

LA is a car-centric sprawling cesspool. Even for the US, it’s uniquely terrible.

If you’d moved to some of the less desirable locations in Europe, you’d probably find them to be a shithole, too.

Your lack of perspective (“how much of a shithole the USA really is”) is something I’d only expect from someone half your age on their first backpacking tour of Europe.

> having a car is much easier and more convenient.

Ah, I see you didn’t live in Germany.

> For how far north everything is, Europe is positively _balmy_!

Thanks to the Gulf Stream. One potential risk of climate change is that if the circulation patterns are disrupted, our nice supply of warm water from the Atlantic might cease and it would actually get locally colder.

Wow, high roller. Talk about vain. I wasn't talking about money.

Good luck with apartment search!

US Southeast -> New York -> London

London driving is still necessary if you want to do anything out of town. It's super spread out and despite the Tube being reliable, it doesn't really run at night. London is so huge it's unlikely your friends will live much less than an hour away from you. The roads are tiny and civil engineering here post-dates most of the construction so it's mayhem compared to driving in the US. However, you can get the hang of it.

The NHS is great for (1) the bottom end, basic stuff with a straightforward solution like a broken arm and (2) the high-end emergency stuff like childbirth and cardiac arrest. Assuming you have reasonable health insurance in the US, the NHS falls flat for any kind of non-emergency, non-routine procedure. You'll need to pay retail to get the same care which is about 1.5x what the same procedure would cost cash in the US. Otherwise you'll learn the NHS's "holistic" solution to your problem. You will have the comfort of knowing the less well off aren't in dire straights paying for basic healthcare. If you think it's "free" though, see below.

Taxes are out of control. In addition to about a 50% income tax, most goods and services are also subject to a "value added tax" of 20%. Compensation is also about 60% of the US version. So in exchange for the NHS, you get an "everything is expensive" mentality, and it's super common to hear well-to-do folks complain about the slightest expenses. It's actually very socialist for being one of the largest capitalist democracies in the world.

The law here is much less clear, and somewhat "equity-based" although followed. For example, an individual has recently been convicted of the crime of owning the Anarchists Cookbook. Penalties are less severe.

Real estate costs are 1.5-2x those of an average US city and 1.25x those of New York. While new construction is made to last longer than its US counterparts, e.g., using a lot of brick, most of it has already lasted longer than its US counterpart. In other words, in London there isn't much new construction. Instead, it's a ton of 100+ year-old homes built with period materials and including 10, 20 and 30-year "extensions" strapped on.

The food is generally lackluster except a few categories like Indian. Forget pizza or Mexican food exists.

People are about as friendly as anywhere.

The weather is almost unbearable. It's always somewhat cloudy. There may be a few consecutive days in September that are clear, but any more than 3 and people will start complaining about how "it's boiling out". In the Summer, while it does warm up in direct sunlight, you don't get continental heating and the stable warm temperatures it brings. So you might find yourself wearing shorts out in the morning and wrapping up in a blanket later in the day. You'll note people wear lots of layers.

I absolutely love taking trips around the Balkans, and have been very lucky to have gotten quite familiar with Hungary, Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia and Kosovo in my recent travels. In a matter of hours, the universal constants (language, food, culture) have been replaced, and there are just so, so many beautiful things to discover in these countries. Words to blow ones minds, history that brings tears with a few simple footsteps...

I’ve lived in Florida, Kansas, Minnesota, and Indiana and visited over 40 states. Except in a few places my experience is that most people don’t live within walking distance of a car. Well, let me be more precise. Those who do live within walking distance to a grocery store tend to not have a pleasant enough or safe enough route to walk there to do so on a regular basis. Traversing a giant parking lot with a bunch of car drivers unaccustomed to pedestrians is unpleasant.

https://www.ers.usda.gov/amber-waves/2015/august/most-us-hou...

The gas prices in the USA are pretty great compared to Europe (including during this presidency).

Some countries (like Italy) charge basically the cost of petrol in taxes.

On the cons, in the USA you generally need to drive longer distances.

Yeah, unclear how this is relevant to the US->Europe topic.

Moving from LA to Minneapolis will be depressing, moving from Rome to London will too.

You might want to pay a visit and get to know some modern Germans.

Are you seeking permanent citizenship there (or did you have it by birth)? If you’re an American citizen, are you able to access the Norwegian social benefits? Did you move there to work for a specific local employer, or did you find a position after moving?

> ...if you're lucky enough to be among the privileged

That applies in every country

Not the GP, but I think you might find in Switzerland (I lived there) that it's not so easy to make friends. When I'm in America, people will just straight up come up to me and talk, so the culture seems to be a bit more open. In Switzerland, socializing is quite different. For a start, there's a local language that isn't the one they teach you in language classes. It also appears much of the socializing happens around existing institutions, eg your school friends, or the rowing club, all things that as a newcomer you won't have a history with.

Question about healthcare. You mentioned getting private healthcare. What is the purpose of that if public healthcare is available for free? Do you get to cut in line for appointments?

Not true, I bought a house in Vienna for less than a quarter of what I would have paid for an apartment in Los Angeles. Okay, its not in Vienna (the state), but its close enough to not make any difference to my commute across town to work.

Living in America is by definition a privileged position. Largest military in the world guarantees either the country survives anything or the world undergoes nuclear Armageddon (and even then the tax man is still coming to your door).

I'm not sure if this is intentional but in all your comments you just come across as a hateful, angry person.

What if you get that salary precisely because this field is free of the sort of inefficiencies and government regulation that drag on healthcare and doctors.

Some of us are outsiders who just enjoy the conversation.

I hope you will find this useful and not off-topic; here is a summary:

- Europe is very different, not a country and not even a union (parts of Europe are NOT in European Union)

- Northern Europe has cold climate, more difficult languages, higher taxes and usually better services

- in Southern Europe people are a lot more relaxed (some can confuse that with lazy, but it is not), a lot friendlier but poorer

- in Germany and Austria it is very important to speak the language well in order to integrate. They are also very strict in many ways (lots of rules and regulations).

- most of France is really nice; salaries are a bit low

- Switzerland has top salaries and life standards. It is probably the best place to live if you are highly qualified.

- the Netherlands and Belgium have pretty bad weather. In the Netherlands most people speak a very good English

- Eastern Europe has lower salaries and cost of living, but imported products (an iPhone or a Tesla car) are very expensive. However people are friendly, life is accessible and the nature is great if you are into it: lots of hills and mountains to hike, access is permitted in most places. Criminality is in general extremely low for violent crimes, robbery and corruption are fairly common in some places.

- Poland and Hungary have some right wing governments that are not very popular with the EU politicians, but for the citizens is not really a problem (except abortion restrictions in Poland, but that is a sensitive topic for a very religious country)

- Ukraine is not a good place yet, not enough English speakers, but it may improve in the next 10 years. Belarus is not a good idea, full stop. Moldova is very poor. Albania is nice, but the language is a barrier and the country is quite poor. Montenegro is soo tiny. Other than these 5 countries, Europe is OK to live a decent life, especially if you have family. Even less known countries like Slovenia are still nice if you like that kind of small country with lots of mountains.

I (Mexican, with Mexican wife) lived in Germany for 4 years while doing research in a Leibniz Institute. At some point my wife and I talked with a German colleague about how difficult it was for us to make acquaintances or friends while living there.

This colleague mentioned that it was the same for her, who was German but from a different part of Germany (like, we were in the East part of Germany and she was from the Northern part). She mentioned that Germans for the most part make their friends groups in the first ~18 years of their lives, and afterwards it is difficult to make friends.

Also reminds me of a time I was in the UK, walking with a German girl, near a train station. We saw a person who looked pretty lost (I think he had luggage and was looking at a wall map... al in all he looked confused). I approached this guy and asked him whether he needed help. He replied with a German accent, and he was indeed lost and was looking for some place. I proceeded to give him instructions on how to get to where he was going.

During all this time, my German friend was a bit further away from us. After I finished helping the guy she found it amusing how I approached the person and talked to him "out of nowhere". She told me that in Germany you don't normally approach people that you don't know like that. I asked her, "then how do you make new friends?" to what she responded that maybe only by introduction form a third party.

Anglo Saxon culture was quite a strong culture shock for me as a Latino.

> I'm just outside London

> ... I'd bet that's true pretty much everywhere in Europe.

I think those two statements are very far apart.

The Ruhrgebiet is a shithole. But then again, so is Florida. As is North Dakota and most of Utah. Arizona is pretty nice, but I probably think that only because of my Australian skin.

The USA is a huge shithole, and if you don't understand why anyone would think that, I have a bridge to sell you .. under which live 12 families, kids and all, who couldn't pay their medical bills after Mom/Grandpa died of cancer.

It is a very American thing to get so upset when the country is criticized. Haven't run into that in Germany, Austria, the Netherlands, or Serbia. Okay, the Hungarians can match American nationalism at times, but for the most part you guys have a monopoly on incomprehensibly bone-headed nationalism occluding your view of the wonders of the rest of the world...

How come nobody mentions France in the comments? :)

I am French but have been working 12 years for a very large US company , spent a lot of time in the US, go friends there - an witnessed/helped several Americans moving to France.

Salary and healthcare were already covered. The fact that over a 3 days drive across Europe you visit 4 or 5 countries with vastly different cultures is a big plus. And by vastly I mean really vastly. We've been in constant wars for 2000+ years and this created a very nice and specific melting pot + cultural differences.

School will be very different. In France you will have a more formalized way of education (which is not a good thing), but also a very liberal one. Children will be drinking tap water starting at kindergarten and and stay like this their whole life. They won't (usually) go to school on Wednesday.

The office will be less politically correct. You will have people discussing politics and religion - though this became less outspoken the last 10 years or so.

You will have good baguettes and average bread - but still eons better than the average US bread.

Bureaucracy is mcu better than the stereotype. But not good either. You have to learn the power of the "pffff" sound you make with your eyebrows up - which means "I understand that this is the rule, but you know, I have to do/get/send that and it is a huge problem if I don't". Many foreigners foolishly assume that a "no" means "this is not possible".

See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pae2AMnmUVA for the more scientific approach to how to be French when you are not.

Pretty much that, you can be integrated in Berlin without speaking German nor interacting with german people

I moved from San Francisco to London with my wife (no kids) in Spring of 2020. So my experience has been very covid-y but still hugely positive. We moved here because we always wanted to live in Europe and we only speak English, so London seemed like the best place to start.

TL;DR - I highly recommend doing this move if you can afford to do it (financially and socially).

Where do I live: Central London

What's the biggest sacrifice: I kept my job in the move and took a ~25% paycut in my job and got slightly worse hours. But the biggest sacrifice was being an ocean away from my friends and family. Oh and the clothes dryers suck here :-)

What have I gained: So much. I got to live in a city of 10M+ people with every possible amenity and activity you could ever want. I got to travel to so many parts of Europe that I never would have gone to otherwise. I learned how to make friends intentionally, something I haven't done since college. I learned how to work remotely effectively, something I thought I couldn't do. I learned how another country works day-to-day, which I think is hard to do without first-hand experience. I learned how to travel with last-minute plans (thanks Covid and RyanAir). I learned how much time I can spend alone with my wife in lockdown without going insane (infinite, so far!). In general I learned that we can live almost anywhere if we are determined to do it.

If it wasn't for my friends back in the US, I'd stay in London permanently. But after ~3 years in London we'll probably head back and try to resume our old life in some form. I hope that when I am older I can return, maybe I'll retire in Spain or send my kids to college in Europe.

> if you like tacos, stay on that side of the pond

I find it extremely hard to believe you can't find good tacos in London.

Last time I visited London and Paris I was overwhelmed by the variety of cuisines available. Probably the ubiquity of tacos in the US is replaced by food from every random tiny country you can think of.

Of course this isn't always applicable outside these 2 megacities; you're more likely to find more Turkish restaurants everywhere than Mexican ones everywhere in Europe.

> (..) if you took a vacation. it was actually expected.

It goes even further than this. It’s a problem for the employer if the employer doesn’t use their vacation time.

Geez someone hit a nerve, eh?

I'm a Canadian and I've travelled most of Europe, and most of the US (among other parts of the world).

The simple fact that the US doesn't have universal healthcare, and refuses to do anything real about it, or other endemic self-inflicted issues like gun violence - problems the rest of the modern world solved long ago! - kinda puts you at the bottom of the list of modern/developed countries in my book.

OP used a rather inflammatory term for sure, but he's not wrong when comparing pros/cons of first-world countries to the US. Y'all have real problems that you could solve but _choose_ not to.

It's obviously not all bad, there are lots of things to love about the US, but I would never ever choose to live there for the reasons above and more.

> Words to blow ones minds, history that brings tears with a few simple footsteps...

These are exactly the kinds of faux profundities I used to hear — and say! — traveling in youth hostels in my late teens.

It’s jarring to see them coming from someone ostensibly past forty.

> Europe is civilized. America is a wilderness.

Funny that you put it this way. That's the reason why some of cousins came back to Mexico from the US: They feel the US is very strict and there's a lot of rules, while over here in Mexico you are free to do whatever you want.

The problem is that you have to go through a GP first, which has a budget and tends to be very conservative. Many GPS will try some silly experiments for months before writing a referral. But once you get a referral it’s reasonably quick. Many companies now offer health insurance with private GPs, which tend to be less unreasonable re: referrals.

Said that it is much worse than Germany or France. To this day I don’t understand the British obsession for a healthcare system that would be acceptable in a middle income country (say Russia or Mexico), but that’s clearly not what you’d expect in a developed country.

This is something that doesn't get talked about often and i'm glad you brought it up.

For all its flaws, the US (and Canada) are societies built around inclusion. Anyone can become American or Canadian and they have. In North America, you are allowed to retain your original identity and flaunt your culture. In Europe, you must become only French, or only Dutch or only Italian. Your original identity is often erased.

Europe is a society fractured along lines of ethnicity and don't let anyone here tell you that ethnicity is not a huge part of identity. In europe, you are merely tolerated, you will never truly integrate and be accepted as "one of us". This is very evident in the words of non-white footballers like Ziyech and Ozil, one of whom is an EU citizen but plays for an African country. "Us" in the European context involves a specific ethnicity and this fact is very evident to people of colour in Europe.

You can certainly find individual europeans who buck this trend but the overall pressure from society is very different and this is the aspect a lot of people miss.

While europe's quality of life is great, what i'm getting at is a long-term problem that cannot be solved. And mind you, this is true everywhere in the old world as every society there is built around ethnicity.

>German culture's proclivity for peace-making

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitali_Klitschko#Political_car...

>UDAR is supported by the German government and the Konrad Adenauer Foundation[93][94] and received support in particular from Angela Merkel and also politicians from the conservative European People's Party. According to information gained by the German magazine Der Spiegel, the target was to "set up Klitschko purposefully as a new strong man in Kyiv—in order to counter this way the Kremlin's growing influence".

>Klitschko was one of the dominant figures of the Euromaidan protests.

Germany hasn't exactly kept their hands clean over the last few years. But I'm glad you enjoy the propaganda.

>Amsterdam... except for the terrible weather.

Must be truly spoiled coming from SF. As for amazon: amazon.nl (not .com) and you are set.

I'll chime in here and say I hate the weather in LA, so for me, losing that would be a plus. ;)

Latitude isn't everything. I grew up on a latitude that is probably relatively uninhabitable in Canada.

> Living in America is by definition a privileged position

Low income Americans have it much worse than low income Europeans on probably every single metric you can come up with.

"Hard to walk to the grocery store where you live" isn't the same thing as "hard to live where you can walk to the grocery store".

If you count entire cities as "well to do areas" then I suppose I agree.

This is most true in financial roles, where a consecutive week off gives the employer enough time to demonstrate there's no embezzlement happening.

LA was home base but I worked and visited most of the USA's states, and I just find American classism to be .. distasteful. And also, endemic no matter where you go.

Won't discuss publicly, but I'd say : worth doing, but leave your stuff in storage for two years -- the appliances won't work here anyhow.

Seek out communities (meetup, etc), and if you're doing it for a startup, you're doing it for the wrong reasons.

Pm for story time, but basically, it's an adventure, and one that will be of (mostly) your own making

Netherlands, 10 years now. Actually ready to move on… Portugal, Malta, Thailand, perhaps spending 1-6 months at a time in a given location.

Gave up my car and driving frequently. Fantabulous gift of freedom not having to deal with traffic and car management. Public transport is a gift, and taxis or very short term car rental programs are a fine fallback.

Gave up some income as salaries are annoying much lower and taxes are much higher. But quality of life, depending on where you go, is much higher.

Get rid of as much of your possessions as you can. You can re-buy what you really need, and with more great activities available (non-COVID times) you spend less time at home needing stuff. Also apartments are smaller, so you don’t want to be crowded with stuff.

My first 5 years were in Amsterdam area, and it’s really fun. So many great social options, including for nerds (lots of tech meetups, often with free pizza and beer :) ). Plenty of bars and clubs and restaurants. Most restaurants are underwhelming and overpriced, so that’s not the attraction… but it provides social options.

If you’re American, it’s incredibly easy to set up residence in Netherlands based on the DAFT agreement. Look it up.

Portugal and Malta have visa programs for freelancers and people who can show that they have reliable income from outside sources. Lisbon is pretty great with much better food on average than Amsterdam. And much better climate.

Are you able to make an appointment for a specific date or you actually have to call everyday to see if there are open slots?

Yeah my comment only really applies if you can choose the region of the country you live in. I don't really know what it's like in e.g. Indiana, so I trust your judgement on it.

In case you didn't notice, I don't care a fig about Australia these days, but your trigger-finger reactionary response calling out China as a reason why America is 'wonderful' is definitely something I expect from Americans. And, frankly, its boring and tiresome. As is the expectation that anyone with a world view not derived from the idiot box would be impressed by America's war budget. You should be ashamed of what your country does with those billions, yo. Its one of the reasons your country is such a shithole not only for those who live there - but those who are on the other end of the complex machinery that starts with a kid dropping bombs on strangers on the other side of the world, from a nondescript office in an Arizona strip mall ..

I come from a normal German city, nothing fancy, and have been overall roughly a year in the US. Boston, Princeton, Philadelphia, NY state. I am wealthy, privileged and was guided safely

I can absolutely confirm the sentiment of the OP, not coming from worst to best but coming from mid range to mid range. Europe has the better package. The amount of homeless, the amount of wasted landscape, the amount of beton, the car dependency, the disgusting public transport, the hotels, the water, ... I can rant for an hour. I love Americans, i deeply respect a lot what they did and do but life quality measured in every day quality ... Do not get me started on that.

> eh?

> I'm a Canadian

Presented without comment.

This is getting heated so let's all take about 20% off there, buds, eh? That being said I've lived all over the US and traveled all over the world, and yes, LA is particularly bad, but in general I agree with OP.

> LA is a car-centric sprawling cesspool. Even for the US, it’s uniquely terrible.

LA isn’t even the worst in that regard (I’d take LA over DFW)

I don’t know where you are from, but LA is actually representative of large swaths of the US, and highlights some of the best things about America (namely multiculturalism and diversity)

> I think that might be overstated.

You think correctly, this is sensationalist nonsense. Maybe a group of 0.05% of the population are in a bubble thinking their riots about stuff will constitute a civil war but by no means is there any sizable group wanting to protest aggressively.

Wow talk about rose colored glasses… history is longer than your lifetime my friend.

Shorter queues for non-essential procedures, nicer facilities (e.g. private rooms instead of wards), doctors who speak your language of preference, doctors available by videocall, healthcare whilst abroad included, that kind of thing.

Nothing strictly necessary, by definition, but lots of perks.

It's worth bearing in mind too that private healthcare is also _much_ cheaper in Europe than the US. In Spain for example I can get private healthcare + dental with zero copay for about €70 a month.

Not true at all. I know plenty of people that live in nice houses and apartments in major European cities.

They’re not European though, let’s not forget the zeal of the convert.

I've done it and it's been a pretty wild ride that I would recommend it to anyone. I was originally born in Missouri and went right into the Army. That probably sounds like I was a country bumpkin, but I really wasn't.

After I left the military, I was drafted into an international company specializing in imports and exports. I learned several languages and my specialty was targeted negotiations. Eventually, even though I brought great value to the company, they decided that they no longer needed me and I was offered what seemed (to me) a pretty poor severance package.

This was a real turning point for me. I'd never been separated like that before -- I'd always moved on to new assignments on pretty good terms. Fortunately, I had a little set aside.

After a night of sailing in the Mediterranean, I had a horrific accident; I fell overboard and eventually rescued by a passing fishing vessel. As I healed, I sought to rebuild my life with the help of a few new friends, who I can now never forget.

Of note, even the larger U.S. consulates in Europe were not very kind or helpful! At times, it seemed almost like they were working against me. This may not reflect your experience, however. You're probably asking where the IRS was in all this, and to be honest I've asked myself the same question!

Where do you live?

I spend most of my time traveling and paying off old debts, but I do have a few close friends.

What's the biggest sacrifice you had to make (i.e., pay, housing, friends, etc.)

To be honest, there were people that I was very close to back in the States that I thought were my friends and people I could trust, but I found that most of them couldn't be trusted. Even my former colleagues seemed to not care for me that much. And traveling all the time is a bit of a pain, especially dealing with customs, local police, etc. My old company has blacklisted me, so I've got to deal with that as well.

What have you gained?

Freedom. Even though America is the land of opportunity, and actually I have determinedly pursued a lot of opportunities, some parts were quite miserable and even felt like torture, but I've mostly been able to suppress those feelings, even though they've left some lasting scars.

All told, my life has been pretty interesting, although the U.S. government has proven to me that it is really just a group of people like any other; even with the noblest of intentions, as you gather a large group of people, it becomes far more likely that some bad apples will infiltrate, so "the government" cannot always be trusted, even if it largely tries to do the right thing most of the time. Eventually, someone has to clean house.

I still respect those foundational principles of liberty and justice for all and still try to apply those principles.

> I'm taking about a 50% pay cut on paper (for a Senior Software Engineer position)

A friend of mine moved from Seattle to Munich for work as an SSE, and his experience with respect to the pay cut matches yours. He was expecting that, but did not factor in the increase in taxes on top of that. He said he was broke and living off savings for the first time in his adult life, while working 40 hours a week for a major software company.

I think the germans’ peaceful ways are more about compensating for what came before than about innate qualities of them as a people. The U.S. response to 9/11 was indeed abysmal, with no self-examination at all, and I know several people who since then refuse to travel to the U.S. because they basically consider the whole country to have gone mad. There is this very odd thing where if you talk to Americans they are mostly sane and reasonable people, and then you see their political system and it is like an episode of game of thrones.

Which sort of supports their point actually! :P

How much more privileged can it get than on a thread where OP is seeking to leave a stable Western first-world democracy?

Es ist sehr interessant, nicht wahr, wie banal das Verständnis der meisten Amerikaner für ihre Notlage ist?

Sie werden nicht für Demut gezüchtet, während die meisten Europäer heutzutage...

It depends from country to country; in Romania, for example, where we used to have many communities of Hungarian, Bulgarians, Czech, Polish, Turks and Tatars, if you are reasonably white (or Mongolian looking) and speak a decent Romanian you are considered to be integrated. If you look very different (Black or Chinese) you are accepted, but not considered a local even if you were born and raised in Romania and speak the language natively - this is because non-White people are a tiny, tiny minority (a few in a million).

In case anyone missed it, the poster is describing Jason Bourne.

Florida is a shithole? You spend too much time on the internet. Florida man is a literal meme that came about because of laws that all state collected data should be publicly available causing the media to get most of its fun crime stories from the very large population there. You realize that a large portion of the richest Americans chose to move there for their retirement? Very large swaths of southern Florida contain some of the most modern and amenity rich sections of the WORLD. Not accessible to the average citizen of course, but then again Luxembourg isn't well known for its accessibility either. We are so much more alike than we are different.

True. I did love the multicultural aspect of Los Angeles, but it got blown to pieces during 9/11, and once the hatred and the flags came out, it was definitely time to leave .. But for many years I considered LA to be a very fine example of people living together, relatively peaceful. Well, after the RK riots, that is ..

It's a pretty similar system in Germany and Sweden at least though (I haven't lived in France).

I moved from the UK to Germany right when I had to have surgery and the wait time was identical (scans were much quicker though as I lived right next to a student hospital).

The only year in which the NHS budget was cut in real terms was 97 or 98. Otherwise it has increased in real terms since 1980. Since 99, the NHS budget almost doubled.

It is increasing right now, the current plan (2018-2024) increases the budget by 3.4% in real terms every year.

>LA is actually representative of large swaths of the US

No, not even close.

I mean there aren't cities like Vienna in the US.

>You realize that a large portion of the richest Americans chose to move there for their retirement?

Yes of course, making it a shithole for those who didn't.

He's not upset. He just wishes for a more mature level of discourse. Your inability to understand that makes you someone not really worth engaging with.

edit: Now that I think about it your mentality fits very well with someone from Vienna, you've integrated well.

The number of cities where that is the case are a distinct minority.

And no it isn’t the same thing, but that was what parent comment was communicating. If people assume you are poor because you aren’t driving then you live in a place where you can’t walk to get groceries, in a practical sense, because clearly for any normal person the trade offs are prohibitive.

I'm British. Lived in the USA for six years: three in Manhattan, three in Seattle. Moved to the Netherlands in late 2020; currently living in Utrecht.

Downsides:

The most obvious sacrifice is financial: I took a substantial pay cut to come here, and, on top of that, I now pay more tax. The day-to-day cost of living is a bit less in Utrecht than in Seattle, but not (nearly) enough to compensate. That doesn't make much direct impact on my disposable income — I have more than enough to live on from month to month — but it does mean I save substantially less.

House prices are out of control here; buying a house that we like feels like an impossible dream.

It's also harder to meet people and make friends. Part of that is Covid-related, of course, but the language issue makes it hard to join groups, clubs or activities — although my neighbours can speak effectively perfect English when necessary, that's understandably not how they want to spend their down time. That's compounded because most people my age are well embedded in social networks already, so it's hard for a newcomer to make connections with them.

I miss the landscape of the Pacific Northwest. The Dutch flatlands don't really compete.

Upsides:

The level of visible poverty is much lower. I found the level of homelessness, begging, deprivation, in the places I lived in the USA to be genuinely distressing. That's much less of an issue here (not zero issue, but much less).

Similarly, the level of visible inequality is lower. Sure, there are rich people and poor people in the Netherlands, but the differences feel less stark. Even the fairly poor have a decent standard of living. This makes me feel much more comfortable. I should add: neither this point nor the one above it are intended to minimize the plight of people living in Europe who are really struggling.

There's a safety net. I was well paid in the USA; I had good health insurance, etc. But there are enough “gofundme” stories of people who were in a similar position, and for health or whatever reasons it suddenly all goes wrong and they need help to deal with whatever life throws at them. Here, I'm pretty confident that if I or my family are suddenly unable to work, there's a safety net and we won't be out on the street. (In practice, if it had all gone wrong in the USA, I'd have escaped back to the UK, but you take my point.)

In general, infrastructure feels more solid. The road surfaces are better (seriously, American roads are terrible). Trains well-kept and reliable. Public spaces are clean and well maintained. Banking systems feel like they are decades more modern.

A good standard of education is fairly ubiquitously available to everybody, without costing a fortune. Although I save less, I don't have to worry about how I'm going to afford to put my kids through college.

Evens:

I biked everywhere in Manhattan, in Seattle, and now in Utrecht. I have never owned a car. I guess I failed at my American integration!

How can you be broke as a senior software engineer? Even if the wages are lower than in the US, they're probably still in the better half of the wage pyramid.

(I'm a senior software engineer in Europe, doing alright)

Did he have massive student debt or something?

> Really one of the few things you can say context-free is: you'll have more vacation in virtually any European country.

In tech, at least, this probably is no longer true. In my experience most of the bigger companies have been moving to unlimited vacation. I'm pretty sure that someone in upper management did the math and concluded that employees granted unlimited vacation actually end up taking fewer days than if they are metered.

I think it depends on where you live. If you live in New York, LA, Chicago, Seattle a lot of the big cities have such horrible traffic I can see the want to get rid of your car.

If you live in a place like Austin Texas and work from home, like I do. Having a car is a delight. I can go in any direction and bring my stuff I can get stuff from the store and bring it home. I've lived without a car in New York City, there's a lot of downsides to that. You don't have the freedom to just go to IKEA and get a something.

> Despite its reputation, I find that Europe is far more provincial than the US when it comes to food - a lot of stuff you think of as ubiquitous in the West will be "foreign" food and harder 48 to find. (And if you like tacos, stay on that side of the pond.)

That’s because you are just outside London, and the UK bar London Zone 1 and 2 is the third world of gastronomy.

Oh for real I'd take London weather any day rather than MSP weather.

No context. Minneapolis is "hot like hell" in summer and "cold like hell" in winter.

London is mild and rainy but it's not too bad.

> "I've completely lost the brain-dead nationalist mentality that had infected me in my earlier life, I've gained Immense amounts of respect for humanity, ..."

>"The weather was pretty good in LA. But, still: Americans."

The latter statement clearly negates the former. It's fascinating that the irony of those two conflicting statements was completely lost on you.

Further your use of a monolithic "Americans" is almost comical. Honestly it sounds as though maybe you didn't get out of LA very much in your 15 years. And as others have also pointed out LA is not at all representative of the rest of the country.

Well, think of it like this: I worked hard, contributed hard, and chased the American dream. I found it distasteful and repugnant - so I moved.

(And, btw, $2,000,000 is hardly "high-roller" status, spread out in taxes over 15 years... unless of course you're one of those "living under a bridge because medical bankrupcy" Americans, lol..)

I lived in Canada with an ex-girlfriend for two years and her whole family would pay out of pocket for dental care in the US because the alternative was waiting months (or in the worst case, 2 years) for an appointment. Even for things that should be a dental emergency.

I definitely am glad I left the USA, and I for sure hate what Americans are doing to the world. I think its time a lot of you left, frankly.

Yes, yes it is.

Not identical, but representative yes.

It’s actually become somewhat of an issue nowadays. Germany has such low acceptance of any military action that even in a situation like right now, where Ukraine is at risk of being invaded, the vast majority is against any action.

Germany is still doing cleanup of WW2 damages today, everyone has experienced at least one evacuation due to old leftover bombs being found. It’s hard to support war when its damages are still deep in the collective consciousness

I'm an American who has now lived in Iceland just over seven years.

Sacrifices:

Iceland is one of the most expensive countries in Europe (last I checked, about on par with Monaco) and software engineer salaries in my experience generally -don't- reflect that.

Iceland is also (surprise!) an island, so getting anything shipped here is both slow and expensive. Ideally, learn to live without stuff you could normally get Amazon same-day shipping for in the states. Never mind the Icelandic postal service is a subject of constant derision for how bad it is at everything.

The weather is terrible (though mostly wind and rain - the temperature is kept mild by the Gulf Stream) for most of the year, with maybe a couple months of summer if a year is particularly lucky.

Employment options for a non-Icelandic-speaker are limited outside "immigrant jobs". This is a consideration both for your prospects as well as, if you're with someone, -their- job prospects. I do think this is slowly changing (slowly getting more high-tech companies that want to attract foreign talent), but at the same time UTL (the immigration directorate) has become tougher about foreign hires in the past few years.

Social life very much depends on your circumstance. It is very easy for a foreigner to fall into a pit of being totally alone because although everyone here speaks perfect English, virtually all social life is still conducted in Icelandic. And there aren't a ton of resources to learn Icelandic from (as opposed to, say, French, Spanish, or Italian). This can be mitigated to an extent both with work connections and local foreigner gatherings.

Dating is also dependent on circumstances. I'm a conservative-ish Christian looking for same and they (almost) don't exist in Iceland. But I have known more secular foreigners who have both met natives and other foreigners here, so it can work depending what you're looking for.

Icelanders are -very- laid back. This can be a pro or con depending on your temperament, but it took a little while for me to get used to. This applies both to time (expect that Icelanders are either late or decide last-minute not to show) as well as to expectations. The unofficial Icelandic motto is "Þetta reddast" which roughly translates to "Everything will work itself out". That sounds cool until you hear it coming from your plumber/electrician/doctor/contractor.

To that last point, I don't recommend Icelandic healthcare. Yes, it's covered by taxes so upfront costs are low, but Icelandic doctors in my experience (and that of other foreigners I've worked with, including European) are quite resistant to actually doing anything. I know a guy who had a serious condition that the Icelandic doctors refused to operate on despite every other doctor he got an opinion from outside Iceland recommending an operation. He was eventually able to push those recommendations through and get what he needed, but it was a lot harder than it should have been.

Living this far north, the seasons have a notable impact on mood and maybe even mental health for some. I've mitigated this somewhat with a sunlamp, but it's still a thing. "Fortunately" it affects everyone so empathy for it is easy to find.

Benefits:

I love that, as is my impression of the other Nordic countries, work is just work and people generally live to have lives. Icelanders are a very creative/artistic people. I know a bunch of musicians here as well as a couple authors.

Iceland is an extremely peaceful country. Both in the sense there's virtually no street crime (political corruption is another question, but at least that stays mostly out of sight) and in that there's no standing military (the closest thing is a coast guard). Also people tend to trust their government (there was none of the American gnashing of teeth over either masks or vaccines).

The landscape is world-famously beautiful. It's sort of surreal living in a global tourist destination.

Although I can't vote yet, I appreciate the parliamentary system over the US's two-party system, although this is far from unique to Iceland among European countries.

Citizenship requirements are pretty simple. Just stay here long enough and learn the basics of the language. Alternatively, marry a citizen. If you can somehow swing residence in Iceland, it can be a good gateway to European citizenship, which can open lots of other doors.

Not unique to Iceland either, but I do believe there's value to living as an immigrant. I've found it helped me grow in empathy towards immigrants in the US, plus it's liberating to realize that you're not necessarily stuck with one government just because you were born there if another one attracts you more.

I noticed my mental health improved considerably when I moved. Admittedly, I was uniquely bothered in Atlanta for purely Atlantan and not necessarily generally American reasons, but it's something I gained so I note it here.

I think getting upset comes from the fact that in addition to some very valid criticism, there is a tremendous amount of invalid criticism thrown towards the US. If Germany or Austria or the Netherlands were constantly being insulted on the world-stage then they would likely grow sensitive to criticism as well, even when it is occasionally valid.

Another reason could be the mindless, abject hatred you seem to have of the country. If you approached your criticisms rationally they likely would be better recieved. Instead it sounds like you're spouting what you've read on woke twitter and have left no room for compromise. Saying "The USA is a shithole" is akin to saying "Europe is a shithole". It's a blanket statement that it not unilaterally true for either. I lived in Europe myself for several years and there were things I both loved and hated. There were nice areas as well as shitty areas. After spending those years in the EU, I've come to prefer the US. You're entitled to your opinion, you're not entitled to generalize an entire country and it's population and then insult someone when they object to those generalizations.

I've lived in the US my whole life, I've been to LA once for a wedding, and I really don't see a single similarity between what's going on in LA and what's going on where I live (Northwest Arkansas).

My air is clean, my commutes are traffic free, the people here generally suck, and I have access to world class... everything, if I want it (well, maybe not transportation, but my car is nice, German even!, and I can get everywhere in it pretty easily). Because I'm wealthy, I can afford all of the things you get for free in Germany without it negatively affecting my way of life, which probably helps substantially, but that's part of America too.

I want to move to Europe from the US, everything you described is amazing, but maybe it's a shithole to you because you've only been to a few places in the US.

Hawaii is in the US. Puerto Rico, Alaska, The Everglades, Sequoia National Park, Glacier National Park, Yellowstone National Park; it's hard to go to those places and walk away thinking they're "shitholes".

The USA is huge. Some of it is a shithole, and where you lived for 15 years is probably closer to shithole than not, but "The USA is a huge shithole" is probably not as true as you're making it out to be here.

How's southern France for long term tourists/expats? Would love to hear your thoughts.

What do you mean by "Children will be drinking tap water starting at kindergarten and and stay like this their whole life."? Is there some sort of subtext here? In general I think it's great if you can safely drink tap water, saves the hassle and waste of getting bottled water all the time.

You probably shouldn't have stopped travelling.

Post 9/11 America was indeed very toxic, but I have to ask how much you have been back since? (Not to say our political culture isn’t still toxic)

Are you suggesting having a car in Germany is easier than in the US? That seems backwards.

[comment intended for boffinAudio]

I've been hacking on something I have no business really doing (skill level: can barely read header files). If you're open to new things, please, please reach out. My fiancé and her sister absolutely love a little audio product I made, and even if I sell two more or a million more, break even or go broke, giving in this way makes life worth living. Cheers mate

Indeed, peanut (or other nut) butter is nigh impossible to find across all of Europe.

> They won't (usually) go to school on Wednesday.

That’s very interesting. Do French people typically try to set up some care arrangement, or just leave the kids at home? When I grew up in Poland, if my school was doing that, my parents would most likely just have us stay at home alone (starting from grade 1), but I imagine this would be rather uncommon thing to do in US these days.

Germans teach and learn from their history. The USA is busy trying to bury their history and pretend it never happened.

While being a bit harsh, this is indeed overall one of the biggest issues foreigners actually have: if you accept language and culture and adapt yourself into it, you love it. If you reject it Europe/that country is not your place. You will never feel home then or create a social web outside of the expat community.

I have seen so many cases of both cases here in Europe.

Not to me. He answers the questions honestly, bluntly and without the condescending sandwich feedback technique that many here employ.

Really? I was under the impression that even the average person living in a poor European country (e.g. Moldova, Belarus, Kosovo) has a worse quality of life in most ways compared to, for example, someone living in a rural trailer park in Mississippi (an especially poor state) making minimum wage. What are some notable examples?

I call BS. Dental care is completely private in Canada and appointments are easy to find if you're willing to pay.

> If Germany or Austria or the Netherlands were constantly being insulted on the world-stage

This would be a fair argument if you, as an American, weren't ignoring the fact that the USA is the worlds #1 cause of terror, war and torment - in countless other sovereign nations, whose infrastructure was torn apart so that Americans could feel good about themselves and their country.

Austrians, and Germans aren't dropping bombs on innocent people every twenty minutes. Your perception that America is unjustly criticized belies the fact that just maybe, you need to travel a bit more to see that a lot of the world is seriously fed up with America's bullshit. The point of travelling is to try to understand that a bit better, and I hope you do that. In the same way that I generalize about America being a shit-hole - Americans generalize, and then drop bombs.

>I've completely lost the brain-dead nationalist mentality that had infected me in my earlier life

Looks like you gained a different one though.

You can but most people will give you shit for not speaking German. Some of them are extremely rude about it too. Even/especially if you're quite obviously a tourist.

And where the hell are the non-smokers hiding?

That said...NY's Central Park doesn't have shit on Tiergarten. Literally one of the most beautiful places I've been on the planet.

I've lived in three different US cities and in each, walking to get groceries was normal and not challenging.

I made my reply assuming the parent comment meant literally what they said. If you are reading another meaning into it, that's fine and I don't disagree. But they also don't contradict my comment, so why frame it like an argument?

> Europe is civilized. America is a wilderness

Europe has 3x the population density of the US, so this definitely tracks. Europeans (and some US city-dwellers) have so much trouble understanding the popularity of the car here, because they don't get the scale of the wilderness. I routinely hop in my car and in under 10 minutes I'm in places that public transportation will never reach. I can't even fathom how terrible the quality of life would become for me if I had to rely on public transit. Great if I'm going downtown, but I rarely do...

In your first post you wrote: "I've gained Immense amounts of respect for humanity" yet you turn around and write this.

You were a tourist here. You lived in Los Angeles. Yet you somehow feel emboldened to call a nation of 330M+ people "A huge shithole"? And you haven't met any nationalistic Serbians? Sorry if I don't take you seriously.

I think the key is: paid vacation days.

We recently had a President talk about “shit hole” countries. Roughly one half of the U.S. cheered or at a minimum were passive about such a comment. I use the term “shit hole” country to refer to the U.S. partially as a joke to see Trump supporters get huffy when saying this.

For a nation to be as wealthy as we are and to be in the state we are in I think it’s fair to say the U.S. is a shit hole country. Our patriotism and propaganda blind us to this fact.

> The simple fact that the US doesn't have universal healthcare, and refuses to do anything real about it,

What is funny, is how many Canadians come to the US for faster or better treatment. No more 3 month wait list to get a basic procedure. It's almost like there are pros and cons to every system, eh?

If you're paying either way might as well take a trip to the US where the skilled medical professionals inevitably migrate.

"and I get to see the USA from outside the decadent, rose-colored bubble from which it is usually experienced."

This. As someone who moved to the USA ten years ago, you do not understand "the bubble" Americans live in until you see it from inside and out. People here live on a stage with absolutely no idea that a global audience is watching them. People also can think and say things in absolute confidence which are considered ludicrous by 99% of the rest of the world.

I for a long time could not wrap my head around why so many people actively reject the idea of free health care, but it made me realize how little I appreciated when I had it.

... and it's scary how things just seem to be getting worse here with no real hope for improvement without massive reform. Reform that can only happen if something catastrophically bad happens in the near future.

edit: and I don't mean this in a critical way, I mean it objectively as possible.

I moved from Australia to France back in September 2021. Bureaucracy is a sport here, but not much more than back home.

Would recommend/10, AMA.

Oh, there are definitely beautiful places in America - just as there are beautiful places in Australia.

But the nationalist culture, the pride and arrogance, the ignorance of the cost to the rest of the world of American moral authority - this is prevalent no matter where you go in the USA.

And then, there's the social fabric. Go outside and find your nearest bum, living on the street. Get to know them and how they go there. That is a very American circumstance.

> I don’t know where you are from, but LA is actually representative of large swaths of the US

I actually grew up in LA, and now live in the foothills outside of Boulder on a large forest property — which is nothing like LA or Vienna.

I haven’t run into many areas of the US reminiscent of LA, and the US is enormous. It can’t be painted with a single (and such a reductive) brush.

> The downside is, Berlin is not really integrated into Germany.

I'd kind of consider that a selling point. Berlin is cool and is different from the rest of the country. But I guess whatever floats your boat.

> It is a very American thing to get so upset when the country is criticized.

I think this is thankfully becoming at least slightly less common, at least among educated Americans. For me at least the combination of meeting more people outside my bubble, travelling and learning more about the history of the United States has led me to a similar conclusion that you have reached.

A few weeks ago I returned to my rural Minnesota hometown to see people that had come from families that had lived there multiple generations wearing confederate flag clothing. I wonder if they had any concept of which side their forefathers would have been fighting with back then.

>I've completely lost the brain-dead nationalist mentality that had infected me in my earlier life

OP seems to deal in intense absolutes

Very negative, if nothing else. Bit difficult to read their comments when the amount of ego oozing through their words is palpable.

I didn’t. My traveling companions are just a little wiser and more mature, now.

They didn’t technically contradict your comment but I also didn’t feel like you were giving it a charitable reading either.

I find it odd that you’re asking why I’m framing it as an argument as though an argument wasn’t already framed.

It's not lack of perspective. It's even worse when looking at America from Africa. I feel like we are peers in a great race to win the-best-shithole-on-earth contest. But then again, both have beautiful spaces, so I guess the real measure is between large cities, of which most is horrible for human needs. This is where Europe excels (and Japan & SK and few others) - they are human-centric and not work/car -centric. It feels like you are "living" in those countries, but in places like America you are just working... for what? Just money. Then what? Make some war etc? Skip. If I can I would move to Europe tomorrow.

A similar thing is said about other European capitals: Paris, London, Amsterdam, Edinburgh etc. The inhabitants of these countries will say their capitals are not really like the rest of their country (or an accurate reflection of the country).

It's why so many people flock to large cities - you feel less like an 'outsider' because the population of these cities is so varied.

I moved from the USA to Finland.

Biggest sacrifice I had to make was downsizing my residence. I have a small flat in Helsinki instead of a large US home. Homes are generally much smaller here, though with more rooms for the square footage than they do in the USA.

I have gained so much. I live in a place where it is safe for my children to wander the city alone. I live in a place where I never get harassed by homeless people in the street, in an exceptionally clean city with very little crime.

I live by the sea and enjoy clean air 365 days a year, instead of smoking the state of California every summer.

The Finns have an extremely strong predisposition to minding their own business. It makes it a little harder to make friends, perhaps, but I love not having to deal with busybodies. I am partially blind, and travel with a cane or a guide dog from time to time. In the USA I was harassed almost daily by people who didn't understand that you don't have to be totally blind to benefit from a guide dog or a white cane.

In Finland I have never been questioned about this.

They also have a much more work to live mentality and better work life balance than in the USA. You notice this when you see that when people introduce themselves they often do not mention their profession, as it's not seen as a core part of their identity like it is in the states.

I don't own a car, as the public transportation is so great here that it isn't worth the hassle of having one.

I have enough children that the taxes aren't actually that much higher for me. If I was a single person then the math would be very different, I am sure.

Local salaries are much lower than in the USA, but I do contractor work for US companies and still charge US rates so I haven't felt the impact of this personally.

I love having access to good health care that isn't tied to my employment; it makes being self-employed much easier.

I love being able to walk everywhere. The USA is a terrible place to be a pedestrian.

Not that it's a bad thing ;) (for the most part)

Yeah in quite a few countries in Europe nobody will just spontaneously talk to you unless they're drunk or a bit weird. However, many will also be delighted if you start the discussion as a foreigner. That's much less likely to come off as weird as some leeway will be afforded for other cultures.

Wow, Not only did you not misfire with that statement, but you actually bolstered OP's arguments ... Well done!!

> but leave your stuff in storage for two years -- the appliances won't work here anyhow.

I wonder if anyone in the US has converted their house to European appliances. The voltage is close enough, converting an entire house over to using 240V on all circuits is a trivial change, the hard part would be swapping all the plugs for European ones. And the frequency is probably the biggest part, but I'm unsure how big a difference 50Hz vs 60Hz makes with modern appliances.

I just find the thought kind of amusing. In a country this size I'm betting at least one person has done it. People are nuts.

In Italy public healthcare provides everything, even dentist, but waiting list are really, really long. Obvisosly, an emergency is managed immediately (a broken bone will be fixed immediately at no cost without asking anything), also cancer and health issues with tight time constraint, for everything else not urgent you have to wait, sometimes a lot. Also health care quality is a lot different from place to place, in north Italy is quite good, in other places not at all. There's a lot of national "health turism", as we call it, people moving for hundreds of km, usually from south to north Italy, to find a better health care. So, if you want/need to "skip the line", you have to pay private healthcare, otherwise you wait, if you are lucky a few days, if not also more than a year. For my last medical examination to my eyes, nothing serious, just a check, I wait about a month. Of course, COVID pandemic aside.

>Its one of the reasons your country is such a shithole not only for those who live there

This is purely inflammatory rhetoric. Ironically coming from someone who immigrated, was afforded the opportunity to make enough to pay $2M in taxes in 15 years (and even goes on to brag about this payment funding blowing up brown kids), and found the "American Dream" by his own statement.

You're free to hate America. We're free to be happy you left. But really you're gone, just go on enjoying your life. America isn't perfect and has a lot of problems but I'm much happier here than I would be in Europe, it's definitely not a "shithole" to me, my family, or most of the people I know.

>the fact that the USA is the worlds #1 cause of terror, war and torment - in countless other sovereign nations,

Pax Americana has been the most productive time in modern history. Europe's track record is objectively worse

Land wise the US is enormous, yes. But given the topic at hand, when discussing “car-centric” and “sprawling” metro areas, LA isn’t that distinct in that regard. And there are a large percentage of Americans that live in one of them.

When you consider all the add ons like healthcare, living costs, exchange rate, etc, the salary differences are no longer that off. In a calculation i did once with some co worker it ended up with a. $10k difference. And considering that the US culture is consume driven, that money is gone in seconds for crap.

I did this in 2010, and it changed my life forever. But likely not in the way you might think, and definitely not like most other people on here.

I don't have a tech background. In 2009, I was a BA holder (Philosophy) working 3 jobs (retail/hospitality/merchandising) with no real prospects. I had always had the bug to get out of the country, but had no specific plan. I took a year to go back to school to study foreign languages (French, Italian, Portuguese) with the plan to find some way to transition to another country.

One of my French professors pointed me to TAPIF (Teaching Assistant Program in France), that gives you a 6 month contract to teach English in French public schools. So, in 2010, I was placed in Lille, France where I "taught" English in primary school. In reality, I got around 900 euros a month (with full benefits) to work around 10 hours a week. I did this for two years, and was able to afford a modest room and a few trips to Barcelona, Amsterdam, London, etc. I also met the woman I would eventually marry.

The TAPIF program disincentivizes a transition to permanent residency, so I instead decided to do a Masters in France. This is highly preferable to doing a study abroad program, since you pay French tuition (less than a thousand euros for the ENTIRE degree...that includes tuition, books, materials, etc.), you can work 20 hours a week, and you get healthcare, housing subsidies, food subsidies, etc. So, while going to school full time and working part time, I could afford a really full life in a an apartment in the city, taking plenty of vacations, and generally not worrying about life.

Until my future wife and I realize we were never going to become French. Don't get me wrong, a lot of expats, both American and European, become French. We just couldn't. Even with above average fluency for non-native speakers, you will be constantly singled out as non-native. You may make local friends, but in France, it is a life's work to become a local yourself.

So, in 2014, we moved to Romania (wife's home town). I managed to get a job with a web marketing company, which provided a decent salary for life in Romania (~$800/month). We had enough to live comfortably in rent for a while, and enough to build a house. We had family and friends, and the ability to take trips both in the country and around Europe. However, even though I learned Romanian (a rare feat for ANY non-native speaker), people still treated me as a novelty. To this day, I will engage in conversation with native speakers in Romanian, and they will invariably respond to my wife, about me, in the third person, while I am standing there. Somehow, being an outsider never really wears off.

It wasn't all bad though, since I did manage to get into tech without having any background. This alone is an achievement, since one of the biggest differences in Europe vs the US is the importance of the subject on your diploma. European education sets you up for a career around middle school. You want to work as a SWE? You'd better take the rights middle school classes to get in to the right technical high school, so you can pass the entrance exams to the PolyTechnic college and earn the degree you'll need to even GET an interview with a European tech company. Not that it's impossible to cross over, but it is far far less common.

The biggest thing I gained was a sense of value in myself and my skills. Having worked for peanuts in tech in Romania, while counterparts in America were pulling down close to or over 6 figures for the same work, I began to lose patience with the whole system. I got extremely lucky to get a remote job with an American company in 2018. My wife decided she would like to transition to an American company as well, and in 2019 we moved to the US.

We are in San Diego now, and our life is miles ahead of where we were before. Yes, the cost of living is higher. Yes, healthcare is tied to our jobs. Yes, you need a car because public transportation is insufficient. Yes, America has a gun violence problem.

But we live 10 minutes from the beach (nice beaches too; not sure what's wrong with the water in LA...San Diego provides a far superior life to LA anyways), we have quality friends from a variety of backgrounds who treat us as equals, the population is diverse in age, ethnicity, education, etc. We will manage the cost of being here, because the benefits are superior to anything we've had in the past.

If you are considering a move to Europe from the US, you should consider these things:

- Language: you need to be ready to learn it; don't rely on other people speaking English

- Friends / peer groups: you need to be ready to abandon your current ones, and start from scratch with new ones

- Family: close family relationships in the US will be difficult to maintain; at best there will be a 5-hour time difference that will hinder communication

- Living space: unless you are taking your big American salary, you can expect to give up your big American personal space

- Cars: in a metropolis (Paris, London, Rome, etc.)? don't even try; in a suburb? think about getting a license (much harder in Europe) and a car (much more expensive than in the US)

- Food: don't be a picky eater

- Measurements: all things will be different...can you measure it? clothes, shoes, food stuffs, liquids, speeds, distances, etc. will be different and no one will care that your American sizes don't match up

- Intangibles: depending on where you choose to live, cultural differences will mean others will seem cold or mean or loud or timid, and you will appear obnoxious or rude or stupid or uncultured...and you have to be ok with that. You will always be wrong, because it's their culture, not yours.

Do I recommend it? Yes.

I think it might be a euphemism, but I'm not positive.

A lot of the world is also thrilled with the defense support provided to them by the US. We don't remain in countries like Germany, Italy, Greece, Spain, etc by force. We do so because they couldn't defend themselves without us and they know it - so they request our presence. A lot of these allied nations are participating in those very wars you complain about, but naturally their involvement is usually much smaller since they lack the infrastructure to compete with the US.

When you say "a lot of the world" you really talking about a very specific subset of the world, while there is also much of the world grateful for our presence as we are the only real deterrent from NK, Russia, or China taking their country by force. Feel free to deny or say that I'm "othering" or am perpetuating a boogey-man, but there is very real data and intelligence to support these claims, I'm not just pulling it out of my ass.

Where are you in France? What was the biggest surprise? I have an EU passport and wouldn't mind spending a year or so in France to make the most of it.

I recently moved from the US to Berlin. I plan to return to the US.

Pros of Berlin:

- Good transport

- Bikeable

- Safe

- Cheaper than the big coastal cities in the US, with lower rent.

- Good clubbing (not my thing)

Cons of Berlin:

- Healthcare is inconvenient. Doctor's offices won't pick up the phone, and won't leave you on hold. You just have to go in person. Providers all work in small doctor-owned practices, and you get a referral runaround with huge wait times.

- The food in Germany is terrible. The quality of produce and other ingredients is very bad, and the restaurants are nothing special. One notable bright spot is the availability of vegetarian and vegan food. Also falafel and doner.

- The salaries are shockingly low. Really ask yourself if all the comforts of Europe are worth cutting your salary in 2 or 3, and that's before...

- Taxes. The top tax rate here is in the low-40s, comparable to the US, but unlike the US, the top tax bracket starts below $65k.

- Europe has an impending demographic crisis, and the social safety net they fund by plundering your paycheck probably won't be there for you when you retire.

- Stores in general suck. They have fewer, and worse products.

- Everyone still smokes here.

In my darker moments I tend to agree with you here, but what I then realize is that it's monumentally difficult to get a land of 330m people to agree, and when you've got a group of people that large, the worst groups will just be bigger and meaner.

My worry for you is that this reaction is a visceral one, fundamentally rooted in a dislike for America's diversity.

It's a messy process, getting everyone to work together, and we're fucking it up pretty monumentally, but to call the effort a "shithole" seems like you'd prefer the US be less diverse? Fewer disagreements would arise, but at what cost?

Germany and Austria have... less than stellar records when it comes to human rights, and aren't exactly known for their exploding levels of diversity on a national level, so perhaps the "unity" you're experiencing came at a cost? Perhaps that very cost was something that disgusted you in the US?

I wonder how a Muslim would describe living in Vienna vs. living in, say, Chicago or DC.

Have you not encountered classism in Germany? I am a fluent German speaker who lived in Erfurt, Berlin, Frankfurt and Munich and encountered similar amounts of racism and classism that I have seen in the USA, France and England. The attitudes of some people from the former West to those from the East are shocking. While in Erfurt, I saw the most horrific treatment of immigrants and refugees. I want to make sure that people understand that Germany is not some sort of magical place devoid of serious issues. The country is still suffering from the post-war division and unification, is battling a resurgent fascist political movement and the people are deeply divided over recent waves of refugees in addition to long-standing resentment against much earlier waves of immigration.

I do love living in New Orleans, either this or Brooklyn are the only real cities for me here. I need to be able to walk to a grocery store. I'm privileged to have lived here for 6 years, and the only reason I recently got an old truck, was to evacuate in case of a hurricane, and we didn't even evacuate during ida. The sidewalks are torn to shit, the streets are full of holes. I'm quite certain that the streets are never fixed because they wouldn't have enough cops to keep people from driving drunk. The city hall sign has been broken for 4 years, the lights don't work in some of the letters and it just reads "ity all" at night. It's illegal to be fully nude in SF these days, but NOLA still has a fully naked bike ride. This place can feel like burning man or joshua tree, but with toilets and electricity. Except for during hurricanes, then its exactly like burning man. I went to the bar next door during ida to find a couple fucking at the bar and open bottles of lube softly lit up with a dark orange glow from the 3 candles that dimly lit my favorite bartenders face as he asked about whether my house got badly damaged or not. The architecture is very old and very unique, actually its very european and feels quite distinct from the architecture in boston/nyc. I don't know a single person in tech here, everyone has some sort of creative endeavor and makes money through a hodge podge of sources. I live next to a 24 hour gay bar, and across the street from a supermarket, next to a vet, and caddy corner from a pharmacy. I never have a reason to leave my block, and this neighborhood boasts the most dense concentration of trans/queer people I've ever encountered.

The city boasts a strong spiritual history, which I sense, causes people to come here to either flourish, or get spit out. There's not much in the way of hiking/mountains around here, and the most beautiful natural environments are in the swamp amongst the gators and pelicans dancing through the soft and grassy patches of muddy land dotting the waters edge. There are no other cities I really like visiting within an hour. It's a bright blue dot in a fire-red state. Car-jackings are up 550% over last year, and the particular circumstances by which someone killed someone with a machete at the gas-station down the street from my house, I'm sorry to say, were unsurprising.

Having said that, I can't live the rest of my life not having *lived* outside of the US. I'll be moving to Berlin at some point, because that's the closest city that felt like it feels here. The food is cheaper, you can find Indian food, and there are more languages spoken. The government there doesn't feel like some morally corrupted festering cesspool of civil indifference and political myopia. Despite everything I love about this place, and that I'm quite certain I'll retire here, I'm eager to GTFO while I still feel young, to experience what its like to feel young in a place more free than the farce I've been raised to believe. I have friends in Berlin, and though German is pretty hard to speak well, I'm up for the challenge.

>this probably is no longer true

>most of the bigger companies have been moving to unlimited vacation

>concluded that employees granted unlimited vacation actually end up taking fewer days than if they are metered

It sounds to me like you just argued against yourself.

Okay, good for you, that doesn't at all change my statement. A sitting president talking about "shit hole" countries doesn't equate to constant, enduring criticism from the rest of the world. Glad you can get one over on "other side" though. It's honestly people like you who drive the division that perpetuates the bipartisanship and make it even more difficult to pass legislature that could benefit the country. Before you criticize everyone and everything else, take a look at your own behavior and see if there's anything you can do to mitigate harm at your scale.

The capital owning class are gunning to eliminate these salaries. "You will own nothing and be happy" is not something they just reserve for the lower classes. The future is hard to predict but don't rule out these outrageous salaries being gone in a decade or two and the market being much more middle/lower middle class type jobs.

If you're not lucky enough to be among the privileged, moving to Europe is impossible unless you have inherited citizenship (which is itself another kind of privilege).

> Forget pizza or Mexican food exists

Italian Pizza in London is better than in all of the US maybe bar Manhattan (unless you want deep-dish "pizza"). Same for all Asian food from Indian/Chinese/Thai/Vietnamese. You are right for Mexican food though.

And I know lot of people still living with their parents - especially in Southern European countries.

I am an immigrant from Albania. American bombs ended the Kosovo genocide. I have reasons to be grateful for this military and I can be upset and disappointed in it at the same time.

I did not say America is wonderful. I don't know why you even quoted that word, when it did not appear in my post. I claimed American taxpayers protect Australia's sovereignty. Obviously your state can do better things with its budget when its defense is bankrolled by someone else. I do not care where you live, your quality of life would plummet if the prospect of being invaded by Russia or China was a real one, a prospect you are protected from through American military supremacy. See Ukraine.

I moved to USA after studies and then I moved back to Poland. I live in the capital Warsaw, Poland.

One of the best decision in my life.

GAINED: Took advantage of having social network in both ecosystem. I went from engineer to director and growing office to 80 FTE. Being able to relocate can boost your career by many years and I was able to mix best of both worlds.

I like walkable and bike-able cities. High quality of food. Real estate prices and quality is so much better as well opportunity for geo-arbitrage. Plenty of green comparing to plagued by drought and fires California. I do not experience homeless people, do not see people taking drugs or car break-ins as in SG.

I feel also I add way more to ecosystem and helped way more people along the way.

WHAT I SACRIFED: California nature is unbelievable good and diverse. What in Europe will take long trips, in California you got it all in driving distance. Startup ecosystem and concentration of talent was top-notch pre-covid. I love forward thinking and level of intellectual debates. Customer service is way better as well as Mexican food.

> Because I'm wealthy, I can afford all of the things you get for free in Germany without it negatively affecting my way of life, which probably helps substantially, but that's part of America too.

As an outsider, this looks like the biggest problem in the US. The EU is no utopia, but standards of living, environment and way of life is pretty good for the "not-wealthy". In the US, it looks like you can also have a pretty damn good standard of living with a nice environment... but only if you are in the fairly wealthy minority. Which perhaps explains why there is such a focus on unobtainable "prosperity", to make it to the "other side".

Even if I can afford it, that concept of society doesn't appeal to me at all, it feels pseudo-elitist based on something that is mostly dictated by random opportunity - sorry if that sounds horrible.

Yeah something happened to me like that with Germans in Vienna at a station.

I knocked over a beggar’s drink and he yelled, and I was apologizing (like in a “my bad, bro”) and was going to give him a few euro coins, and my friends were pulling me away like this was the most absurd thing!

He wasn't dangerous and was very glad I stopped. Even if it was a ploy by always having a drink on the sidewalk to be knocked over, I was going to use the change on drugs too and still would because i had more change.

I was going to write exactly this. Florida is the proverbial city on a hill for its progressive crime transparency policies. I'm tired of the ignorant fools giving it a bad name because they're going to drag down a very healthy policy with them.

I'm convinced that other states and countries try to smear Florida because they're terrified what would happen if they themselves had the bravery to commit to Florida's level of governmental transparency.

https://uwf.edu/go/legal-and-consumer-info/florida-sunshine-...

You can make it. But it is debt until retirement situation. Which is often not very convenient to lock yourself to.

We have a housing crisis also here in Europe.

My favorite thing about those countries is how American taxpayers sent American soldiers to stop violent wars and an actual genocide there within your lifetime.

Did you go visit Srebrenica when you were there?

Okay, fair-- I guess I just think it's important to be clear that although most Americans choose to live in sprawling places, if you're newly arriving at the US, it's not strictly necessary. Many, many immigrants choose walkable places, since getting a drivers license, car, etc. are expensive and inconvenient startup costs.

I don't at all disagree that most of the US is not walkable. Both these things can be true at the same time, but I felt the literal statement of the parent comment was incorrect, so I corrected it.

I'm USian by birth, my parents were both born and raised in Germany, and my partner is Canadian. I've spent most of my life in NW (lower-48) USA and far-western Canada.

As a median middle-class person, Canada is pretty clearly the winner. Significantly less economic precarity, lots of mostly (cough Canada Post) well-run public services, and a somewhat self-fulfilling prophecy that government can make people's lives better.

As a median HN reader, it's a little bit more of a mixed bag:

The pay for software development work in the US is probably about double in terms of PPP versus Canada.

The fact that the US is a much bigger market means that a lot of apps/consumer goods/services are available in the US months or years before they launch in Canada. For online orders, delivery is faster, prices are cheaper, and the selection is better in the US.

Lastly, and this is kind of specific to the Greater Vancouver/Victoria area, but you pretty much have to be part of the 1% to afford a nice house in any moderately interesting city. I think a lot of this has to do with having the mildest weather in Canada and the geographic constraints of the mountains and waterways (along with being fucked up in pretty much all the same ways as the US real-estate market). That said, in Canada the 1% isn't comically out of reach for a moderately prosperous software nerd.

My biggest gripe with the US is the overall sense of incuriosity. Say what you will about American Exceptionalism, if you answer every question of "why don't we <do thing> like <country that does it way better than us>?" with "because we're different", rather than asking if we could try to emulate the way that <country> does <thing>, it leads to a lot of unnecessary stagnation. If the US can at some point get over itself, it probably has a lot of opportunity for catch-up growth.

> Much, much higher salaries - like 2-3x higher than Western Europe _before_ income tax!

Where does this number come from? Assuming SWE, a senior SWE in Europe will generally take around 80/120k € (non-FAANG). 2-3x means a range of 180/400k $, which is not common even in the USA.

What made you decide to move to Iceland? It's not a very common choice for most of the immigrants.

My family and I left at the end of 2019. I left for a number of reasons, but the biggest is I don't want my son to not have a life, and instead just have work and high stress. And, even if he won the work lottery and ends up at a tech company I don't want to live in a place where I look at the kids on my block and know their life is just a future of never ending work/stress with no vacation or community that helps them when they get sick.

- Where do you live?

Portugal (although we spent the first year in Spain).

- What's the biggest sacrifice you had to make (i.e. pay, housing, friends, etc.)

I have one good friend in the town I used to live in the USA, I miss hanging out with him. (I work remote so not much else)

- What have you gained? Everything.

My family has a high quality of life in every way. One of our biggest complaints is that in the USA it is super hard to make friends as everyone is super stressed, doesn't go to parks, and work long hours. Within months of moving to both Spain and then Portugal we have made great friends (even in small town Portugal). It is mind blowing how much happier this has made my wife.

The health care is amazing, I cry a little every time I use it. I have a chronic condition that I need to keep an eye on... and to be able to have a doctor read my chart before I come in and who answers all my questions is just mind blowing. In the USA I tried to pay for two sessions just so they would talk to me... and I couldn't even get that. They just rush me out without explaining anything.

I biked in the states a little, but had too many close calls in a college town and avoided roads. Here I use the bike lanes all the time, and do 1,00+ km long bike tours.

The work life balance is better and people are less stressed overall. No place is perfect, but overall labor has paid time off and gets to have a life even if they are working minimum wage.

Talk about generalizing things! You know very little about me and my little joke with using “shit hole” country is hardly a problem the country faces or is in any way perpetuating partisan divides. It’s ok to call out hypocrisy when one sees it. This is especially so when it involves our leaders.

Before you criticize everyone and everything else, take a look at your own behavior and see if there's anything you can do to mitigate harm at your scale.

I haven’t criticized everyone or everything else. I criticized the U.S. for being as wealthy as it is and being in the state it is in. It’s not a good look for you to complain about overgeneralizing and then write the above overgeneralization.

My presidential voting record:

George Bush 1992

Bob Dole 1996

Green Party 2000, 2004, 2008, 2012

Donald Trump 2016

It's not horrible at all, you're totally right; American society is much more stratified on wealth than the EU is.

You have to understand though, when I travel to the EU, my personal quality of life drops, because of that fact. I understand why, and I don't think any less of the EU because of it (I want to live there someday), but if you're lucky enough to be marginally wealthy in the US, it's a whole different experience, and a lot of HN users will fall into that "fairly wealthy minority".

You're not talking to the median income folks in the US if you come to HN, I would guess. But we don't have to lift a finger to get to experience all the best parts of the US, without many/any of the downsides.

Lyon.

I think the biggest shock was just how different classroom French and real-life French is. I studied up to B2.4 level French back in Sydney, and folks just speak so much faster here.

Also, the food is significantly higher quality than back home (even the supermarket processed crap)

In Florida, six-year-old children live in tents:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/florida-affordable-h...

I get it that Floridians don't want a nanny state, but this kind of thing is why the below-median lifestyle in the state looks like a shithole from a European POV.

The fact that the 1% is so well-off makes the picture look even worse.

One thing I love about being in other countries is the combination of appreciating political stances I would never adopt at home, such as Hungary’s land immigration policies, or having complete apathy to the politics as the history and incentive to bother disappears.

This quote nails on the head what is wrong with the USA "Because I'm wealthy". Being wealthy at the cost of providing a good society for everyone is what is wrong with America. We could have a society where people have a safety net and work/life balance, and also have wealthy people.

I grew up in Fayetteville AR watching my family struggle at multiple times... especially over health care emergencies. Ultimately this led me to leave the country. I'd recommend you take a look around your city / state and look at the damage we are doing to people who have less than us.

I'm middle-aged, greying and Scottish and I've moved both ways: from the UK to the US west coast (Seattle), where I have lived for the last 13 years, and am in the process of moving back to Scotland. I suspect I'm older than most of you (46); and I am married and have a teenage daughter. Nonetheless, here's my take:

Gains you'll get in Europe/UK: - much safer, more stable society for raising a family; - lots of history and culture (if you like that, I do); - much better public education, public transportation and public health systems; - much better work/life balance (35 hour work week and 6 weeks vacation); - a broadening of your perspective of life (Americans tend to be rather insular);

Sacrifices of leaving the US: - massive pay cut and much, much higher taxes; This means your net pay will be significantly lower than the US West coast. I am taking a 35% reduction in income; - if you work for a big tech company, their centre of gravity will be the West coast and so you may miss out on some project/career opportunities (this varies from team to team of course);

So, as you can see, from my perspective, having lived on both sides of the pond for decades, the only sacrifices of leaving the US are money related (I don't have any family in the US, though).

My decision to leave the US after 13 years is complex and, as a family man, is heavily motivated by where I think I can offer my daughter the best start in life. We want her to have a quality, classical education in a safe environment. For us, that means returning to Scotland and sacrificing the money of the West coast.

In addition, I have accrued enough wealth over my 26 year career to be financially secure (not rich, though) e.g., I own, with no mortgage, properties in the US and in Scotland. So, being older makes it slightly easier to sacrifice the massive (overpaid?) salaries of the West coast. If I were a young, single twenty-something again, perhaps I would optimise for the money. It's a tough decision.

A side note to counter the pay cut: one tech area where the UK is more advanced than the US is finance. There are a lot of interesting FinTech start-ups. Also, working in the City of London typically pays enormously well (better, typically, than a West coast big tech salary + stock package - for people my age, at least). But it's a very high pressured, high stakes environment compared to the campus life of a big tech company.

Your LA baseline is definitely much different than an average European. It's like how an American/Australian colleague moved to Berlin from Sydney, bought an apartment right in the middle of the city and paid it all in cash.

I’m a US citizen with a skilled workers visa.

With a skilled workers visa you are eligible to apply for permanent residency after 3 years, and for citizenship after 7 years. Norway does allow duel-citizenship.

If we stay, and continue to learn Norwegian, we could (in theory) have duel citizenship in 4 more years.

I moved to Norway to work for a specific Norwegian employer and already had them lined up before moving to Norway. If you are a software engineer or developer, the market here in Oslo is in demand for skilled professionals.

If you have a valid visa, you have access to all the social benefits here in Norway. It does take a couple of months before you are in the system.

With a skilled workers visa, I also have the flexibility to switch employers (as long as I continue to work as a software engineer/developer) without having to reapply. However, I’m not allowed to freelance or have a side business here in Norway.

This thread is filled with folks who are _convinced_ the USA is a shithole because they lived in LA once, or they read too much depressing news.

More for me, I guess.

I think you covered most stuff pretty well.

> Much, much higher salaries - like 2-3x higher than Western Europe _before_ income tax!

> Much larger houses for the price. i.e. you can have a big house with room for hobbies or children rather than just a small flat.

But remember that in those parts of the US where people have those very high salaries, people seem to complain about not being able to afford to buy a house at all. Should be less of a problem nowadays with remote work though.

Yeah that’s something I can definitely agree with.

And I really should apologize, I think some of my own frustration was taken out on you there. I personally would really rather not own a car, but outside of the northeast, it’s very impractical to do so.

Thank you!

> a senior SWE in Europe will generally take around 80/120k € (non-FAANG)

Nowhere near - I got 75k EUR at a FAANG (whilst the same position in the US paid ~$165k USD - the levels were public). I now get 86k EUR in one of the most expensive countries in Europe (with over 40% tax rate too).

But most Tech salaries are much lower, I started on the equivalent of $40k USD for example, and it's common for people to level out around $65-70k USD.

You still get paid for unlimited vacation days.

My partner and I are planning to move to Amsterdam in the middle of this year. We haven't done it yet so maybe this isn't super relevant, but here are our reasons (we're planning to have kids, so lots of these are kid-related):

- There is essentially no gun violence.

- Education is a lot better and more evenly distributed.

- Access to abortion and other reproductive health care.

- Far less dependent on cars (walkable cities, trains, public transit).

- Better legislative regimes--you can see this in sectors like food safety.

- Better balance between employer and worker rights, which leads to...

- Better work/life balance.

- Lower income inequality.

- More diversity of culture.

- So far, no insanely huge forest fires or mega-droughts.

- Stronger anti-discrimination laws (including protections for LGBTQ people and immigrants).

- College is very inexpensive.

- Retirement infrastructure is much stronger.

- The US government and election system is... it's bad.

Here are things that give us pause:

- Depending on how you look at it, a lack of diversity. The US is super diverse; only a few cities in the EU really come close. It is true that the EU is home to lots and lots of cultural diversity, but when you look at like, raw numbers of Black/Asian/etc. people they're worse.

- The rise of nationalism--we mostly think it's less of an issue in the EU than it is in the US, but TBD on this, especially as climate migration increases.

- The EU's response to climate change has been miserable, and they're pretty dependent on autocratic regimes (Russia) for energy.

- The social integration difficulty is hard to estimate, but we assume it's pretty high. Learning a new language is hard, learning a new culture is hard, adjusting to being an outsider/immigrant is hard, and you're doing all this while adjusting to lots of other things.

- Most of our family lives in the US, they're getting older, and we'll miss out on familial support re: child rearing.

---

These all sound high-falutin' probably and they are. But like, what does this mean in practice?

- Our kids will probably never experience low-grade background anxiety of "maybe this is the day a school shooting happens".

- We won't have to play the public/private school game, and our kids won't feel that weird class stratification (I know there are still private and parochial schools, but the difference in the US tends to be a super poor school that people of color can't buy out of, and a super rich school that costs a bunch of money).

- Our kids won't ever have the internal debate about reproductive rights: birth control will be a norm and abortions will be available.

- We'll stay healthy more easily with healthier food and a more active, less car-dependent lifestyle.

- Our lives won't revolve around our jobs, we'll be able to be more present for our kids.

- We won't have to solve all of our problems (education, health care, housing) with huge piles of money, driving us to work harder and take jobs that exploit others just so we can stay ahead.

- Our kids will probably not have to spend a ton of money or time taking care of us when we're old.

- Our kids will grow up in a more multicultural environment, hopefully giving them a broader view of humanity.

This is pretty hand-wavy and high-level, and there's definitely more nuance than I'm describing here. But achieving most of them in the US requires lots of effort, and it's pretty fragile. Like you can try to lead a car-free existence in a smaller city, but as soon as the 1 grocery store by you closes, or you get a different job, or the city changes the bus routes/schedules, your whole life (probably) changes.

Can anyone moving from the US to Europe speak to the non-white experience? I’m interested in the UK specifically. We understand that the UK has some pretty harsh anti-hate crime and anti-hate speech laws on the books, but what is life like as a professional American person of color making a change from the US to the UK?

Is anyplace outside London considered inclusive?

I'd be happy to give more if I knew it wasn't going to people like who live in Harrison (for example).

They deserve to rot in poverty for their regressive, racist views, and the hate the spews from that town and out into the rest of America.

They do so much more damage than I ever could by making a good living.

New Orleans is a wonderful city. Berlin does seem like a great option to live for a couple years-- the biggest problem being that it's arguably too appealing to expats. I'd also recommend Valparaíso, Chile as a good Berlin alternative if you want to try Latin American life for a while.

> How can you be broke as a senior software engineer?

Housing and taxes are both expensive.

Good questions, thanks for asking.

For context, I am considering moving back to the US.

They must be exceptionally wealthy to afford said treatment with no insurance coverage. If you're wealthy, it doesn't matter what the system is because you can just go to a different country to get treatment, that's the same for people in the US.

I have a roommate who hasn't had health care most of his adult life because the cost is so high and the fact that most low-end jobs don't offer any. But fuck him I guess.

I lived in Kreuzburg when it began gentrifying. I lived near the Kotti. I liked the area and have a love/hate relationship with Berlin. May Day in Kreuzburg was interesting. I got an appointment to see a dermatologist in Berlin in one day. I had no German health insurance or travel insurance. The whole thing, including medication, cost me around 30 euros. Their health system is much more sane than ours. In summer go to the lakes in the eastern part of the city. You’ll see whole families stripping in front of everyone and going for a swim. Definitely a different experience. Good luck!

This varies too much by individual. For me, the difference would almost entirely built upon where you live. Things like healthcare are already included in my job.

This is assuming I get paid the same but somethings just differ a little. If I was paid market rates in Europe - I’d be probably get $200K+ less than I do now and that’s not insignificant…

I'm also Australian+American+European and I have to agree with this and your original post.

People replying to you (Americans?) seem to take great offense to your (harsh) criticism of America but it's largely on the mark. The US has many good things going for it but they mostly have to do with having a lot of money/power, trying to get a lot of money/power or being ideologically way off to the right.

I don't know what you dislike about Australian culture but for me it's the parochial nature of the place along with the smugness combined with the cultural cringe. It does indeed have a great quality of life as long as you enjoy beer, sports and the beach. You'll find the most interesting Australians are elsewhere in the world. To give it due credit it is a country with massive immigration (30% of residents were born overseas) where people by and large get on very well with each other.

> You're not talking to the median income folks in the US if you come to HN, I would guess.

True, I think there probably is another geographical difference here.

Whenever salaries are discussed on HN there appears to be one or two zeros difference compared to the median salary over here for similar jobs - only as a casual observation, I can't be sure (i.e we get paid significantly less). If it's true, I suspect this is because of the differences in income threshold for a decent standard of living, and because of certain aspects that are mostly decoupled from salary such as social health care.

Another resulting difference then, might be that on average workers of tech jobs in the EU are more likely to rub elbows with and be more relatable to people of "less prestigious" jobs - which I think is probably a good thing - I feel like I'm about to be accused of being a socialist though :P

This less politics and religion in workplace statement is due to the general disinterest in both, not because we stop discussing controversial topics.

Germany and the US have very similar levels of foreign-born populations.[1] Austria has a much larger muslim minority as a share of the population than the US, and the same goes for Germany.[2] While US politics are certainly more divisive, it is hard for me to see how it is more diverse.[3]

Fully absent from your consideration is the fact that both Austria and Germany are part of the EU, a project in diversity maybe only outdone by the indian federal state.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_d...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_G...

I'm guessing here, but you're probably American taking offense to someone being frank and direct in their communications. It's a cultural difference.

No. It is literal. Tap water is generally healthy in Europe.

They're not that expensive, and if a senior software engineer can't put a roof on top of themselves while paying taxes, how can anyone expect a school teacher or a nurse to do so?

I moved from the US (Bay Area/LA/Chicago) to the UK (London).

Biggest sacrifice is my family is all US based, and the time zones really suck for staying in touch. The next thing would be the eye-watering compensation increases in the US in the last 5 years since I left. I'd be making significantly more income if I had stayed. That is something I still struggle with on a personal level.

What have I gained. I suppose a different perspective on the US, to some of the absurd Americanisms that I used to just accept: the crazy amount of patriotism and propaganda, the poverty, ghettos, widespread homelessness, the gun violence, the failing/overpriced medical system. The US is a really messed up country in many ways - it's sad given how wealthy it is and successful in other areas, and all the smart people, it shouldn't be like this.

The NHS is great, although it feels like it's gotten worse since I moved here. Still, everyone can get good quality medical care, it just takes time.

There aren't homeless people everywhere here. I can walk around the roughest parts of London, the worst that will happen is I might get mugged. In Chicago, there were gun shootings blocks away from where I lived with my small children. I went to Colorado over the holidays, and there had just recently been a mass shooting at the Boulder King Soopa which was closed. It feels so much safer here overall.

Europe is on my doorstep and I've spent some time traveling to quite a few different countries, and it's really enjoyable. COVID put a hamper on that for the last couple years, but the opportunities are there.

Pub food is really delicious in the UK. UK sausages are amazingly good. I miss steaks in the US though, although there are some pretty great places in London. Cider is awesome, and I can drink it even w/ my IBS issues unlike beer. Coffee in London is the best I've ever had.

Public transport is great and I can explore the city easily. I can walk out the door and go get groceries, or shop on the high street, or eat out. Not needing a car for every single thing is pretty great once you get used to it.

There's a large amount of diversity and I've met a lot of great and different people with unique perspectives that have given me new insights.

Squash is a great and fun sport and available to play pretty much anywhere without costing a lot.

It's not all roses though. Brexit. Tory austerity policy is bonkers. Quality of education has gone down a lot, I am struggling with this as my son goes through secondary. There is a bizarre class system perpetuated by widespread independent (private) education which gets subsidized via tax exempt status. NHS waiting lists are super long. Quality of services has gone down it seems - it is hard to find good community facilities and centers which aren't falling apart or overcrowded. Taxes feel absurdly high for what we get. Housing costs too much. US taxes can be a nightmare as an expat.

I’m happy for you. For the majority of my life I had a dream to live in Finland (home of my ancestors) but the closest I got was Norway. I recognise a lot of similarity with what you have experienced in Finland to what I have experienced here in Norway with my family.

I think it's meant in contrast to kids drinking sodas from an early age.

I have no idea what you mean. I live in London where there's an abundance of different kinds of nut butter. I have been to many places in continental Europe, and even though the same abundance is not present everywhere, I never had an issue finding plenty.

> The salaries are shockingly low. Really ask yourself if all the comforts of Europe are worth cutting your salary in 2 or 3, and that's before...

Exactly! No amount of health-care and vacation can cover for that. And that's why as for a skilled immigrant, USA is top destination.

> Taxes. The top tax rate here is in the low-40s, comparable to the US, but unlike the US, the top tax bracket starts below $65k.

It's funny when I see Americans on reddit complaining about how they have to pay so much in taxes. When you show them exact numbers, then they start talking about how they don't get "worth" of their taxes.

Be aware that as long as you're a US citizen you will still have to file a US tax return (in addition to local taxes) wherever you go! Most countries have reciprocal tax agreements with the US (you basically deduct taxes paid in one country from the other) so you don't have to actually pay twice, but you definitely do have to file twice! There are all sorts of peripheral headaches related to this, for example the UK tax year does not align with the US tax year.

Still totally worth it IMO. I moved to the UK for a few years, got cold and moved back to a warm part of the US, but missed it and moved back to the UK. I have no intention of moving back to the US again.

Around the time of our invasion of Iraq the South Korean President of Korea criticized the Bush administration’s fixation with Iraq. A day or so later Rumsfeld announced that the U.S. would withdraw from South Korea in the coming years. Their stock market went into a downward spiral and they quickly recanted their criticisms. The U.S. has done a lot of good and a lot of bad. An Australian once said to me, “If someone is going to rule the world you could do a lot worse than having it be the U.S.”

One of the few things I liked about Trump was his statements that our allies need to spend more on defense. We should not shoulder the burden alone.

https://thediplomat.com/2015/06/evolution-of-the-u-s-rok-all...

Oh. I think it is in most of the US as well? Or at least, I haven't been anywhere in the US where it is unsafe. In some places it tastes kinda bad.

I have actually been to a couple of places in (Eastern) Europe where I was told not to drink the tap water.

What is your living situation like? Are you paid well? Do you own a car? Do you support a family? Can you afford childcare? Do you have a housekeeper? How large is your house?

I mean, that's great that you can walk to places and eat tasty food but I feel like you left out a large part of what it's like to live somewhere.

At the time I was working in customer support for the same Icelandic employer. I knew I wanted to get into engineering and volunteered to do some free "spec" work to demonstrate that I could perform at a professional level. That proposal got hung up in labor law stuff in the states (they told me legally they were required to pay me for work I did as an employee and they didn't have a budget for what I was proposing) but they said it wouldn't be an issue in Iceland so I requested a transfer to the home office and made the job change official a few months later.

Yeah the nude sunbathing grannies and grandpas in city public parks are certainly a trip, but the Germans are so much more practical and grown up about these things.

Last I saw, France, whose army is still inflicting serious violence in West Africa with its army (albeit with the permission of the governments there), is in Europe.

Yes, multiple times and my viewpoint remains.

In a lot of European countries, you're required to take most of your vacation, and 6 weeks a year is not uncommon. Taking 6 weeks would be significantly frowned upon in the US.

Also, again, what you're calling "most tech companies" I assume is "a few on the west coast", and while that's a useful perspective, it's difficult to fit into a discussion where the granularity is "the US", where it certainly is not standard.

While I had a lower salary, I explored the world in my 20s by having a moderate amount of disposable income and a lot of free time.

Was sollen die den machen? Wirklich neugierig was der Vorschlag ist.

Yes, more multicultural countries work like that. The ancient Austria-Hungary definitely did.

Lets not forget the fact that OP is white. I am not a race baiter, and hate identity politics. But as a non-white person, I would rather live in US than Europe. Forget about the social media takes, and lets talk about ground reality. US (and probably Canada), with all its fault, is one of the few countries on earth, where immigration and immigrants are normal and expected. I can also practice my religion with freedom, unlike most of Europe (UK is one exception with caveats of course) that are hell bent on restricting religious expressions. Lastly, I have to confess, all my takes are also a bit generalized but roughly hits the tone.

Is it? Unless I'm reading the following wrong:

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-...

He didn't mention debt. I kinda wanted to be vague, since I'm just recapitulating a breakfast conversation I had nine months ago, and don't know a ton of details. I believe that he had to continue paying U.S. taxes in addition to the higher German taxes.

Absolutely. Both your statements.

European Union countries*

For basic things like vacations, parental leaves, access to basic healthcare, &c.

I've seen skidrow in LA and some parts of SF and NY, this is third world country tier, it looked like war times refugees camps

The Netherlands may want to have a word with you :)

And honestly it is fairly common to find peanut butter in supermarket in most of Western Europe (at least), may not be good but it exists.

That's funny about the tap water. Remember my first visit to France as a kid (~late 70s) and the whole family wondering at the stuff floating in Paris tap water. We did not touch it, and drank bottled water. Btw, this was in a very nice rented flat near Etoile on Ave. Victor Hugo.

Check out Tempelhofer feld, not exactly beautiful but utterly unique.

- Estonia

- Pay and all the amenities of home, particularly in regard to food (both fast and cooking at home varieties)

- Well, a wife, but everything else is in the negative

Very short version of a long story: Am American. Company got bought, I was laid off. Travelled for a while. Friend eventually got me to move to Estonia to work. Hated it immediately. Made plans to move back, met a girl, stayed for said girl because US immigration is excruciating.

Now you may be asking what I disliked about it. I’ll try to highlight the top points in roughly descending order:

1- Pay in Europe sucks by comparison with the US, and I’m not talking net pay after you pay for your free healthcare, I’m talking gross… it just sucks. I would say take what you made in the US and halve it, at least. In Estonia a Senior Dev salary is about what a teacher makes in the US somewhere in the south (not a high income area). Living expenses are not necessarily commiserate with the pay, especially with my €850 power bill last month.

2- The weather is abysmal. No one on either continent seems to realize how far north Europe is vs. the US (thanks Mercator!). In Estonia the sun doesn’t actually set in the summer, and in winter you get sun from about 9am to 3:30pm. Both HUGELY messed with me (and still do 4.5 years later).

3- There is a huge language barrier. Even in Tallinn, and places you would kind of expect to be better about it, like a big pharmacy chain, you’ll routinely (read: daily) have issues if you don’t speak Estonian or Russian. I’ve also had people just get annoyed and throw up their hands and stop helping me if I speak English. They calm down and come back… most of the time. I’ve even considered moving to Helsinki (80km north) just to live in a society that doesn’t glare when you say “hello”.

4- The free public healthcare is worthless if you don’t speak Estonian or Russian. There is one GP that every expat I know goes to in Tallinn because he speaks English very well, but if you need anything else you’re screwed and will probably just pay out of pocket to see a private specialist. Private health insurance is a growing trend for this reason, but if your company is largely Estonian (or Estonian run) no one will ever think it’s worth spending money on. Even the Minister of Health recently said they’re working on the issue but that the “ultimate solution is to learn Estonian”.

5- People aren’t friendly. It’s (somewhat) true that Estonians “warm up” once they get to know you, but neither friends nor strangers will ever come close to what you’d be familiar with in any of the English speaking world. I even actively avoid making eye contact with people now - just walk with your head down. At a bar you never talk to the drunk stranger next to you.

6- There is a definite racism and xenophobia issue here. If the US had been conquered as many times and by as many different groups as Estonia I’m sure we’d have the same problem, but I honestly expected better for an EU country. Even if you’re as pasty white as they are, as soon as you challenge or complain about something, out comes the “Estonia is perfect, leave already” attitude. As with many places in the world, you also run the risk of paying the “foreigner tax” - knowing that you’re a foreigner they’ll just assume you don’t know how much something costs and will just blindly pay whatever they say. Complaining will likely get you a string of Estonian or Russian you don’t understand and potentially the person to just leave.

7- Service in general is awful. I don’t know if it’s because they don’t work for tips or because employment laws make it almost impossible to fire someone or what, but I hope your food comes out right the first time and you don’t finish your drink because chances are good you won’t see your server again until they want to be paid.

8- Kind of related to that, and something I have trouble explaining that should really be higher on this list… no one seems to care about their jobs in the same way they would in the US. I don’t mean as far as keeping the job, I mean doing it. Kind of an “I’ll do my job, but I’m not going to work my ass off or do anything more than absolutely required” kind of apathy. It doesn’t matter if the company is trying to win a new client or is afraid they’re going to lose one, none of the employees seem to care either way, like they don’t realize or care if their jobs might disappear as a result.

9- For some reason every employer wants to give you a stupid cheap backpack. I’ve already got an expensive one, how about just giving me a bonus of whatever you’d have spent on it instead?

Well I come from NYC, so this is not exactly new to me. I suppose I'm the kind of person that belongs in a big city that's not really part of it's host nation.

Also, it is really not true that you can truly integrate, even in Berlin, without speaking German.

I think it is debatable if UK is really a European nation. US and UK are far closer in various dimensions than UK and any other European country.

I could also see myself in Mexico City since I already speak Spanish pretty fluently, and have far more friends who expatriated there, but I really wanted to learn Russian and Berlin has much better resources for foreign language instruction.

That’s fair, I never had the fortune to live in pre 9/11 America as an adult, so I lack that perspective.

I share a lot of your perspectives too, but I’m pretty content with my little corner up in the PNW.

> I can also practice my religion with freedom, unlike most of Europe (UK is one exception with caveats of course) that are hell bent on restricting religious expressions.

In which European countries could you not do that? I’m in Scandinavia and can’t imagine what kind of problem regarding religious practice you would encounter here that you wouldn’t in the US or UK.

> That said...NY's Central Park doesn't have shit on Tiergarten

Someone said it too! I have had few arguments with people, mostly New Yorkers, over this.

Thank you for beautifully putting the main difference between US and Europe. This is quite accurate in terms of how US and Europe see immigrants.

> As an outsider, this looks like the biggest problem in the US. The EU is no utopia, but standards of living, environment and way of life is pretty good for the "not-wealthy". In the US, it looks like you can also have a pretty damn good standard of living with a nice environment... but only if you are in the fairly wealthy minority. Which perhaps explains why there is such a focus on unobtainable "prosperity", to make it to the "other side".

You're mostly right. Except the threshold for a nicer life isn't the wealthy minority. i'd hazard a guess that it's somewhere below median income i.e. i could get so much more in most of the US for the median income vs what i could get in most parts of Europe for the median income. however the bottom quarter have so many more problems here. Coincidentally this is about the amount of people struggling to afford medical care.

Personally (having lived many places) i would want to be in a much higher income quotient in Europe.