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Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

181 points feraligators | 2 comments | 25 Jan 22 15:44 UTC | HN request time: 0s | source

I've long considered leaving this country for a multitude of reasons.

I'd be curious to hear some first hand experiences of those who've made the move to Europe and what you think of the process and considerations one should make.

A few questions to start the conversation:

- Where do you live?

- What's the biggest sacrifice you had to make (i.e. pay, housing, friends, etc.)

- What have you gained?

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thenoblesunfish ◴[25 Jan 22 16:06 UTC] No.30073405[source]▶
I'm sure others will cover the shorter-term aspects. I'll add that, particularly if you're not young or have a family, it wouldn't hurt to consider the fact that you will probably have a great time for the first N years, but there might be a slump when you realize that you will probably never really integrate and will have a smaller social circle because of it, in a place where people seem to have smaller casual groups of friends, in general. I live in Switzerland, which is particularly harsh on this front - I do not hope to really integrate and accept that as a cost of the other benefits of being here - maybe my grandchildren will. I think it's fair to say that in America, you're American a lot faster.
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eldaisfish ◴[25 Jan 22 16:33 UTC] No.30073860[source]▶
This is something that doesn't get talked about often and i'm glad you brought it up.

For all its flaws, the US (and Canada) are societies built around inclusion. Anyone can become American or Canadian and they have. In North America, you are allowed to retain your original identity and flaunt your culture. In Europe, you must become only French, or only Dutch or only Italian. Your original identity is often erased.

Europe is a society fractured along lines of ethnicity and don't let anyone here tell you that ethnicity is not a huge part of identity. In europe, you are merely tolerated, you will never truly integrate and be accepted as "one of us". This is very evident in the words of non-white footballers like Ziyech and Ozil, one of whom is an EU citizen but plays for an African country. "Us" in the European context involves a specific ethnicity and this fact is very evident to people of colour in Europe.

You can certainly find individual europeans who buck this trend but the overall pressure from society is very different and this is the aspect a lot of people miss.

While europe's quality of life is great, what i'm getting at is a long-term problem that cannot be solved. And mind you, this is true everywhere in the old world as every society there is built around ethnicity.

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1. oaiey ◴[25 Jan 22 16:50 UTC] No.30074129[source]▶
While being a bit harsh, this is indeed overall one of the biggest issues foreigners actually have: if you accept language and culture and adapt yourself into it, you love it. If you reject it Europe/that country is not your place. You will never feel home then or create a social web outside of the expat community.

I have seen so many cases of both cases here in Europe.

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2. eldaisfish ◴[27 Jan 22 13:47 UTC] No.30100483[source]▶
For the record - the point you appear to be making is that language and culture are the only two components of societal acceptance.

I am arguing that in a society based around ethnicity, ethnicity is another important part of societal acceptance.

This is not harsh, this is reality. Do you remember the reaction from French media and even the French ambassador to the US when a comedian pointed out that Africans won the 2018 football world cup? The defining characteristic of all their reactions was an attempt to erase or deny the African origins of footballers like Pogba, Kante, Kounde, Ben Yedder etc.