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Ask HN: Who has moved from the U.S. to Europe?

181 points feraligators | 5 comments | 25 Jan 22 15:44 UTC | HN request time: 0.021s | source

I've long considered leaving this country for a multitude of reasons.

I'd be curious to hear some first hand experiences of those who've made the move to Europe and what you think of the process and considerations one should make.

A few questions to start the conversation:

- Where do you live?

- What's the biggest sacrifice you had to make (i.e. pay, housing, friends, etc.)

- What have you gained?

Show context
boffinAudio ◴[25 Jan 22 15:54 UTC] No.30073204[source]▶
I've done it, and it was one of the best decisions of my life.

WHERE: I'm Australian, moved to LA when I was 18 and lived there for 15 years. Then, I moved from Los Angeles to Germany (Duesseldorf), and then to Vienna, Austria.

WHAT SACRIFICE: No more In 'n Out Burger, no more decent Mexican/TexMex food, no more LA food trucks. These are literally the only things I miss about the USA. Literally every other aspect of life has improved massively by leaving the USA - healthcare, food, social life. For the first 4 years I walked to work, ffs. Now I ride a bicycle in combination with the best public transportation options in the world (Austria, Vienna).

GAINED: I've completely lost the brain-dead nationalist mentality that had infected me in my earlier life, I've gained Immense amounts of respect for humanity, I've learned German, I've experienced professional software and hardware development away from Silicon Valley standard practices, and I get to see the USA from outside the decadent, rose-colored bubble from which it is usually experienced. I honestly wish I'd left sooner - every time I go back I'm reminded just how much of a shithole the USA really is ..

Plus, living and loving in Europe is just great. There is no greater joy than a trip through the Balkans for a week adventure, or maybe a jaunt to Spain or southern France. Just being able to travel an hour in any direction and being immersed in absolutely foreign culture is a joy like no other. Definitely a great way to ground oneself.

EDIT: The weather was pretty good in LA. But, still: Americans.

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teakettle42 ◴[25 Jan 22 16:25 UTC] No.30073734[source]▶
Vienna is one of the nicest and wealthiest cities in Europe.

LA is a car-centric sprawling cesspool. Even for the US, it’s uniquely terrible.

If you’d moved to some of the less desirable locations in Europe, you’d probably find them to be a shithole, too.

Your lack of perspective (“how much of a shithole the USA really is”) is something I’d only expect from someone half your age on their first backpacking tour of Europe.

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boffinAudio ◴[25 Jan 22 16:31 UTC] No.30073829[source]▶
The Ruhrgebiet is a shithole. But then again, so is Florida. As is North Dakota and most of Utah. Arizona is pretty nice, but I probably think that only because of my Australian skin.

The USA is a huge shithole, and if you don't understand why anyone would think that, I have a bridge to sell you .. under which live 12 families, kids and all, who couldn't pay their medical bills after Mom/Grandpa died of cancer.

It is a very American thing to get so upset when the country is criticized. Haven't run into that in Germany, Austria, the Netherlands, or Serbia. Okay, the Hungarians can match American nationalism at times, but for the most part you guys have a monopoly on incomprehensibly bone-headed nationalism occluding your view of the wonders of the rest of the world...

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TameAntelope ◴[25 Jan 22 16:48 UTC] No.30074097[source]▶
I've lived in the US my whole life, I've been to LA once for a wedding, and I really don't see a single similarity between what's going on in LA and what's going on where I live (Northwest Arkansas).

My air is clean, my commutes are traffic free, the people here generally suck, and I have access to world class... everything, if I want it (well, maybe not transportation, but my car is nice, German even!, and I can get everywhere in it pretty easily). Because I'm wealthy, I can afford all of the things you get for free in Germany without it negatively affecting my way of life, which probably helps substantially, but that's part of America too.

I want to move to Europe from the US, everything you described is amazing, but maybe it's a shithole to you because you've only been to a few places in the US.

Hawaii is in the US. Puerto Rico, Alaska, The Everglades, Sequoia National Park, Glacier National Park, Yellowstone National Park; it's hard to go to those places and walk away thinking they're "shitholes".

The USA is huge. Some of it is a shithole, and where you lived for 15 years is probably closer to shithole than not, but "The USA is a huge shithole" is probably not as true as you're making it out to be here.

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1. boffinAudio ◴[25 Jan 22 16:55 UTC] No.30074203[source]▶
Oh, there are definitely beautiful places in America - just as there are beautiful places in Australia.

But the nationalist culture, the pride and arrogance, the ignorance of the cost to the rest of the world of American moral authority - this is prevalent no matter where you go in the USA.

And then, there's the social fabric. Go outside and find your nearest bum, living on the street. Get to know them and how they go there. That is a very American circumstance.

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2. TameAntelope ◴[25 Jan 22 17:03 UTC] No.30074365[source]▶
In my darker moments I tend to agree with you here, but what I then realize is that it's monumentally difficult to get a land of 330m people to agree, and when you've got a group of people that large, the worst groups will just be bigger and meaner.

My worry for you is that this reaction is a visceral one, fundamentally rooted in a dislike for America's diversity.

It's a messy process, getting everyone to work together, and we're fucking it up pretty monumentally, but to call the effort a "shithole" seems like you'd prefer the US be less diverse? Fewer disagreements would arise, but at what cost?

Germany and Austria have... less than stellar records when it comes to human rights, and aren't exactly known for their exploding levels of diversity on a national level, so perhaps the "unity" you're experiencing came at a cost? Perhaps that very cost was something that disgusted you in the US?

I wonder how a Muslim would describe living in Vienna vs. living in, say, Chicago or DC.

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3. bakuninsbart ◴[25 Jan 22 17:27 UTC] No.30074747[source]▶
Germany and the US have very similar levels of foreign-born populations.[1] Austria has a much larger muslim minority as a share of the population than the US, and the same goes for Germany.[2] While US politics are certainly more divisive, it is hard for me to see how it is more diverse.[3]

Fully absent from your consideration is the fact that both Austria and Germany are part of the EU, a project in diversity maybe only outdone by the indian federal state.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_d...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_political_parties_in_G...

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4. pintxo ◴[25 Jan 22 18:12 UTC] No.30075545{3}[source]▶
thanks a lot for referencing the numbers. I (German) was not aware of them being so similar.

I was wondering if this might be because most immigration in Germany is actually from more or less neighboring EU countries, and according to [1], that group accounts for 2/3 of the immigrants.

[1] Figure 2: https://www.bamf.de/DE/Themen/Forschung/Veroeffentlichungen/...

5. TameAntelope ◴[25 Jan 22 20:45 UTC] No.30077787{3}[source]▶
Foreign born population isn't what I said, I said diversity, which Germany has a lot less of (0.168200 in Germany compared to 0.490100 ethnic fractionalization). [0]

And EU diversity isn't anything like American diversity. Your countries are nothing like our states, our "mixing" is a lot higher.

The US has to solve problems of a kind and at a level Germany and Austria will never have to deal with. The scales just don't compare, it's laughable to even try.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_et...