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131 points mg | 249 comments | | HN request time: 7.087s | source | bottom
1. briga ◴[] No.26597549[source]
This is good to hear. I assume location must play a large part in this? Solar must be more cost-effective in, say, the Mojave desert, than it is in Alaska.

I sometimes wonder if the widespread adoption of solar is going to have an environmental impact that isn't immediately apparent. Every solar panel you put on the ground is going to take up solar energy that could otherwise be absorbed by a plant, which in turn means that plant can't absorb carbon from the atmosphere. So unless we just limit ourselves to rooftop solar panels there's sure to be some sort of environmental impact if we just switch all our energy to solar.

replies(8): >>26597576 #>>26597593 #>>26597642 #>>26597844 #>>26597847 #>>26597971 #>>26598152 #>>26598678 #
2. xnx ◴[] No.26597576[source]
Possibly, though I don't think solar panels will ever catch up to the amount of pavement there is.
3. m463 ◴[] No.26597593[source]
I've wondered about that too (competing with nature for the sun) but I think just putting panels on the roof or over the parking lot would probably address 95% of the problem.

Along similar lines, I've wondered if solar panels will start to look like pine trees at some point.

replies(1): >>26597986 #
4. rich_sasha ◴[] No.26597628[source]
If solar were free, but we still needed to pay for battery storage, how would it then compare in cost to fuel-based alternatives (fossil fuel, nuclear etc)?
replies(6): >>26597661 #>>26597691 #>>26597763 #>>26597783 #>>26597850 #>>26598615 #
5. kragen ◴[] No.26597642[source]
> I assume location must play a large part in this? Solar must be more cost-effective in, say, the Mojave desert, than it is in Alaska.

Yes, each peak kilowatt of utility-scale solar produces about 240 watts average in Arizona, 140 in Maine, and 100 in Germany ("capacity factors" of 24%, 14%, and 10%). I assume the number for Alaska would be even lower.

> Every solar panel you put on the ground is going to take up solar energy that could otherwise be absorbed by a plant, which in turn means that plant can't absorb carbon from the atmosphere.

Yes, and also it will reflect less heat back into space than the plant or bare dirt would, locally raising the temperature. These will start to be important problems when the quantity of power produced by solar panels is about 100 times larger than current world marketed energy consumption. I expect that this will happen in about 30 years. However, merely switching all our energy to solar will have an effect that's about 100 times too small to matter.

replies(3): >>26597696 #>>26597800 #>>26597929 #
6. kragen ◴[] No.26597661[source]
It's a little hard to predict how the price of battery storage will change as demand for it increases by orders of magnitude, and also how energy usage patterns will change as the relative cost of nighttime energy usage goes up. I've explored these themes in the past in a number of notes.

https://dercuano.github.io/topics/solar.html and in particular https://dercuano.github.io/notes/energy-storage-efficiency.h..., https://dercuano.github.io/notes/heliogen.html, and https://dercuano.github.io/notes/lithium-supplies.html. https://dercuano.github.io/notes/balcony-battery.html and https://dercuano.github.io/notes/the-suburbean.html explore the question at the household scale.

More recently, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26219344 and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26229595 explore this question in more detail, and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26308189 explores specifically what it would cost for California to switch to an all-solar grid with only battery storage over the next decade.

David MacKay wrote a wonderful and highly accessible overview of the topic in 02009 as part of his excellent book, Sustainable Energy Without the Hot Air, which is specifically about sustainable energy in Britain. Unfortunately it needs to be updated—in particular, it doesn't consider utility-scale battery facilities at all—and he is sadly no longer in a position to update it. The license does permit third parties to provide an updated version, but he did not publish the source code. Still, here it is: https://www.withouthotair.com/c26/page_186.shtml

replies(1): >>26597775 #
7. VBprogrammer ◴[] No.26597667[source]
I make that $20 per MWh. That's somewhere around half the wholesale price of electricity in the UK. That's pretty incredible.
8. kleton ◴[] No.26597691[source]
Would need $20/KWh battery storage to be competitive with nuclear for baseload according to https://www.cell.com/joule/fulltext/S2542-4351(19)30300-9 At the moment, we're at about $800/KWh.
replies(3): >>26597895 #>>26597898 #>>26598636 #
9. brundolf ◴[] No.26597696{3}[source]
> it will reflect less heat back into space than the plant or bare dirt would, locally raising the temperature

I'm not sure this checks out... the light gets absorbed, but the energy doesn't get turned into heat, it gets turned into electricity. If anything, where it's covering up concrete or asphalt it should reduce the conversion of sunlight to local heat.

replies(3): >>26597740 #>>26597767 #>>26598081 #
10. Nullabillity ◴[] No.26597740{4}[source]
Some of it turns into electricity, some of it is wasted (turned into heat). And the whole point is that the electricity gets used at some point, turning into heat, computation (heat), light (heat), or motion (heat). And of course, you also have transmission losses (heat) along the way!
11. andechs ◴[] No.26597763[source]
Not all battery storage needs to be electrochemical - hydroelectric dams work amazingly as pumped storage batteries (although site specific).
replies(3): >>26597811 #>>26597880 #>>26598379 #
12. kragen ◴[] No.26597767{4}[source]
A 21% efficient solar panel reflects about 9% of the light, turns about 60% of it into heat immediately, and turns the other 21% into heat shortly afterwards, perhaps somewhere else, when the power the solar cell generates is dissipated by, for example, an electric motor or lightbulb.
13. jessaustin ◴[] No.26597775{3}[source]
...how energy usage patterns will change as the relative cost of nighttime energy usage goes up.

My fondest dream is that they'll stop dotting the countryside with those ridiculous pole-mounted "security" lights, and we'll be able to experience nighttime again.

replies(2): >>26597785 #>>26598061 #
14. turtlebits ◴[] No.26597783[source]
People use way too much power for battery storage to be viable. The average household consumes 28.9kwh in a day (in 2017), which is way more than rooftop solar can provide.

Maybe when we have smaller houses and don't have a bajillion devices plugged in all the time.

replies(7): >>26597883 #>>26597905 #>>26597922 #>>26597926 #>>26597927 #>>26597962 #>>26598216 #
15. kragen ◴[] No.26597785{4}[source]
I would love this, but battery costs and solar-panel costs are nowhere near high enough to cause it to happen in order to save on the power bill. They probably never will be.
16. tzs ◴[] No.26597800{3}[source]
> Yes, each peak kilowatt of utility-scale solar produces about 240 watts average in Arizona, 140 in Maine, and 100 in Germany ("capacity factors" of 24%, 14%, and 10%). I assume the number for Alaska would be even lower.

In this US government report [1] that looks at solar energy in remote parts of Alaska the capacities of 11 systems in use in 11 villages they looked at ranged from 7.1% to 11.6%. Looks like around 9.4% average.

[1] https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2016/02/f29/Solar-Pr...

replies(1): >>26597857 #
17. amelius ◴[] No.26597811{3}[source]
What is the typical efficiency of a charge-discharge cycle?
replies(1): >>26597861 #
18. cbmuser ◴[] No.26597835[source]
It doesn't matter that solar itself is cheap, it still needs backup plants which are the reason Germany has the highest electricity prices - world-wide.

> https://www.globalpetrolprices.com/electricity_prices/

It's really strange that users on HN keep rehashing the myth that solar and wind energy will result in lower electricity prices for consumers - they won't, never.

Even if solar and wind energy was free, consumers would still have to pay the costs for running backup and/or storage plants which lets consumers prices soar.

The problem with solar and wind is that they simply can't produce electricity on-demand which means the kWh has an actual market value and can therefore be sold with a profit.

If a solar or wind park produces huge amounts of electricity when demand is low, the result are dumping or even negative prices.

Affordable and clean electricity in populous industrial countries like Germany or the US can be provided through nuclear energy only.

Proof:

> https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/ghg-emissions-by-sector?t...

> https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/ghg-emissions-by-sector?t...

Germany: 350 million tons p.a. CO2 in the energy sector France: 50 million tons p.a. CO2 in the energy sector

Germany: 38 cents per kWh France: 22 cents per kWh

Germany: 50% renewables in its electricity mix France: 70% nuclear in its electricity mix

replies(3): >>26598017 #>>26598696 #>>26609403 #
19. Someone ◴[] No.26597844[source]
https://news.mit.edu/2011/energy-scale-part3-1026:

“A total of 173,000 terawatts (trillions of watts) of solar energy strikes the Earth continuously. That's more than 10,000 times the world's total energy use“

That article is from 2011, but I think it’s a very safe bet that factor is still more than 1,000 today.

Also, I would think about every solar panel you put on the ground reflects less energy into space than the ground did.

20. griffinkelly ◴[] No.26597847[source]
I've read a few articles that these solar farms are creating their own microclimates, and particularly in already warm areas can have significant impacts to wildlife with the local temperature increasing in the range of 3-4 degrees C: https://www.nature.com/articles/srep35070
21. jxidjhdhdhdhfhf ◴[] No.26597850[source]
Might be of interest to you: the think tank Rethinkx is forecasting wind and solar + lithium ion batteries will be cheaper than continuing to run already existing coal and gas power plants by 2030. They believe this will cause the capital invested in other types of power plants to become "stranded".

https://youtu.be/6zgwiQ6BoLA

22. kragen ◴[] No.26597857{4}[source]
Thank you, this is wonderful information!
23. vkou ◴[] No.26597861{4}[source]
It's relatively high, the problem is that building new dams is an environmental disaster, and existing dams are two orders of magnitude below needed capacity.

Also, hydro dams kill a lot of people when they have accidents.

replies(2): >>26597957 #>>26598623 #
24. danans ◴[] No.26597880{3}[source]
And even simpler: electric heat pump water heaters, which already coat about the same as has water heaters to operate, and also serve as dispatchable one way energy storage for intermittent renewables.
25. cronix ◴[] No.26597883{3}[source]
It's amazing how much less of something you use when you don't have basically an endless, cheap supply of it. You tend to conserve a lot more because you know it's finite and will run out if you use too much.
26. jxidjhdhdhdhfhf ◴[] No.26597895{3}[source]
Aren't car battery packs under $100/KWh? Is there some other factor which drives up the price for grid level storage?
replies(1): >>26598247 #
27. turtlebits ◴[] No.26597898{3}[source]
~$140/KWh is the current low price for cells (that can be bought by consumers). I just built a battery last month.
28. coderintherye ◴[] No.26597905{3}[source]
The majority of solar comes from Utility scale about 60/40 vs. rooftop solar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_in_the_United_Stat...
replies(1): >>26598353 #
29. imwillofficial ◴[] No.26597911[source]
Headlines that take the facts completely out of context for $400, Alex
30. zizee ◴[] No.26597922{3}[source]
> The average household consumes 28.9kwh in a day

Maybe in the USA.

> which is way more than rooftop solar can provide.

Maybe in your part of the world this is true, but it is not unrealistic in many places.

Also, why are you limiting your thinking to rooftop solar?

replies(2): >>26598065 #>>26598202 #
31. danans ◴[] No.26597926{3}[source]
> The average household consumes 28.9kwh in a day, which is way more than rooftop solar can provide.

The average house doesn't need to source 100% of their electricity from rooftop solar. Electric utilities are how most people will still get a significant portion of their electricity, even those with rooftops solar.

Also, the average household's electricity needs could be reduced significantly while increasing comfort via better insulation, air sealing, and higher efficiency appliances.

32. hn_throwaway_99 ◴[] No.26597927{3}[source]
Most people will have a big battery in their garage capable of powering their house for days pretty soon.
replies(1): >>26598116 #
33. eloff ◴[] No.26597929{3}[source]
> These will start to be important problems when the quantity of power produced by solar panels is about 100 times larger than current world marketed energy consumption. I expect that this will happen in about 30 years.

You predict energy needs will increase 100x in 30 years? Surely you mean just solar energy production?

replies(1): >>26598327 #
34. chrisco255 ◴[] No.26597957{5}[source]
Do you have to dam a river to store energy in this way? Can they just build water towers that pull water from underground up into a tank and release it via gravity to generate power when needed?
replies(2): >>26598100 #>>26598317 #
35. vidanay ◴[] No.26597962{3}[source]
Once solar generating costs are further reduced, there needs to be improved effort on improving local infrastructure (within a single residence). Getting rid of DC-AC-DC conversion would be a huge improvement. If we standardize on a DC system (48v?) then household devices can be more efficient without the conversions.
36. jxidjhdhdhdhfhf ◴[] No.26597971[source]
One possibility is to use farmland or grazing land. You can pick crops that do better in part shade and then place solar panels over them. If done right it could have a beneficial effect on crop growth while at the same time earning extra money.
replies(2): >>26598043 #>>26598357 #
37. briga ◴[] No.26597986{3}[source]
>I've wondered if solar panels will start to look like pine trees at some point.

Interesting thought, but I'm not sure there same factors that led to plant evolution will play out with solar panels. Plants reaching up into the air was a direct response to competition with other types of plants. Presumably the same sort of competition won't be necessary with solar panels. I'm sure nature still has a lot of inspiration we can draw from for creating new types of solar panels, but my guess is that the most efficient surface for collecting solar energy is the flat square design we see today.

replies(1): >>26598406 #
38. yazaddaruvala ◴[] No.26598017[source]
Here is a commercial installation of solar + storage at $0.04/kWh[1]. And it’s not unique, that article links to the cheapest solar + storage in the US at $0.025/kWh.

Additionally, these are today’s prices, as per this article the price for renewables is dropping exponentially every year. And if Elon Musk is to be believed (which I do) the price for storage is also dropping exponentially.

[1] https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2019/09/10/los-angeles-commissio...

replies(2): >>26598891 #>>26604869 #
39. luxuryballs ◴[] No.26598018[source]
I like to believe that millions of years ago the people of Saturn made giant solar collection tree-like space elevator power facilities to catch all those passing rays. That is where Saturn’s rings came from.
40. zizee ◴[] No.26598033[source]
I think the future will be robust national/international grids, with a mixture of storage options (batteries/pumped hydro) to smooth out the intermittent nature of wind and solar.

Cynics always talk about the amount of energy storage required for solar as if you need to store 24 hours of energy for solar/wind to be viable.

I'd like to see numbers on having 1 hour of storage for peak demand, a robust national grid, and appropriately provisioned and placed solar and wind, taking the duck curve into consideration.

replies(6): >>26598222 #>>26598329 #>>26598526 #>>26598746 #>>26599340 #>>26599508 #
41. fabatka ◴[] No.26598043{3}[source]
But then harvesting would be significantly harder, no? At least in the way I imagine this.
replies(1): >>26598069 #
42. sparker72678 ◴[] No.26598061{4}[source]
I think our best hope for this working out is from the (very slowly) growing view of light pollution as the actual _pollution_ that it is.

I would absolutely love this, but I still find it hard to imagine this changing in any significant way in the next 25 years.

43. turtlebits ◴[] No.26598065{4}[source]
The article is referring to the prices in the US.

When land is at a premium, most people aren't going to cover their yard with solar panels. . Rooftop is already generally accepted.

replies(1): >>26598916 #
44. jxidjhdhdhdhfhf ◴[] No.26598069{4}[source]
I'm not sure but certainly it would depend on the crop as different harvesting methods are used for different crops. For example, panels could be built so cows can graze under them or for handpicked crops so that people can walk under them.
replies(1): >>26609351 #
45. sparker72678 ◴[] No.26598081{4}[source]
Research from 2016: https://phys.org/news/2016-11-solar-island-effect-large-scal...

Tl;dr solar raises temps slightly in the vicinity of the panels.

46. marvin ◴[] No.26598100{6}[source]
Not enough energy. Hydropower reservoirs are typically many square kilometers of water surface, depth > 10 meters on average and a height differential on the order of 100 meters or more. Vary parameters according to geography, but it's not something that can be built without using geology for support.
replies(2): >>26598585 #>>26598818 #
47. turtlebits ◴[] No.26598116{4}[source]
Unless battery prices drastically drop, 2 days of power is 60kwh (quoting earlier figure), even if batteries were $100/kwh, that's $6000 in batteries (or ~$9 if you're on grid)

edit: bad math, had $60k

replies(3): >>26598217 #>>26598312 #>>26605896 #
48. zizee ◴[] No.26598152[source]
> Solar must be more cost-effective in, say, the Mojave desert, than it is in Alaska.

I don't think this was your intention, but this reminded me of something I see in so many of these conversations.

In discussions about solar (and electric cars) there are always people who say "well this won't work in situation X", with an unsaid implication of "this is not the solution".

It is unlikely that we will find a single solution that will be a good fit for all situations. Instead we will have many tools in our belt and apply accordingly.

I know that you used alaska as an extreme, perhaps they will never get off fossil fuels. But alaska is a tiny population overall. Its the main population centers that we need to worry about, not the extremes that are hand picked to be difficult.

replies(1): >>26598482 #
49. makomk ◴[] No.26598202{4}[source]
Probably in a lot of countries in the future. One common reason countries have lower average household electricity consumption is the widespread use of non-electric heating, and there's been a huge push to switch to electric heating for environmental reasons.
replies(1): >>26599788 #
50. maxerickson ◴[] No.26598216{3}[source]
In a northern latitude, it looks like I could (more than) meet my electric use with ~1/2 of the southern face of my roof (so like 25% of the roof area).

It wouldn't be enough for winter heating though.

51. makomk ◴[] No.26598217{5}[source]
I think you're off by an order of magnitude there? $100/kwh * 60kwh is $6000, not 60 grand.
52. manfredo ◴[] No.26598222[source]
Even achieving just one hour of storage globally amounts to 2.5 TWh of storage. By comparison the entire world produces ~300 GWh worth of lithium ion battery annually. That leaves geographically limited options like pumped hydroelectricity, and solutions not yet deployed at any significant scale like hydrogen fuel cells, synthetic methane, thermal batteries, flywheels, etc.

Realistically we should saturate daytime energy demand with solar, and if there aren't any scalable storage options by then switch gears and proceed with hydroelectric where it's viable and nuclear where it's not.

replies(7): >>26598287 #>>26598427 #>>26598481 #>>26598549 #>>26598594 #>>26598763 #>>26599062 #
53. manfredo ◴[] No.26598247{4}[source]
The factor that drives up price for grid level storage is scale. Only ~300 GWh worth of batteries is produced globally each year. The world uses 2.5 TWh of electricity each hour. If anyone tries to install battery storage at a significant scale, demand will vastly outstrip supply and drive prices up.
replies(3): >>26598258 #>>26598590 #>>26599059 #
54. ◴[] No.26598258{5}[source]
55. nicoburns ◴[] No.26598287{3}[source]
> Even achieving just one hour of storage globally amounts to 2.5 TWh of storage. By comparison the entire world produces ~300 GWh worth of lithium ion battery annually

... so if we could increase battery production by just 10x, then we could create an hours worth of storage every year. That seems... very doable.

replies(2): >>26598326 #>>26598345 #
56. nicoburns ◴[] No.26598312{5}[source]
What makes you think they won't drop significantly? PV panel costs have dropped by dramtically due to efficiencies of scale, and batteries are only just seeing production begin to ramp up.
replies(1): >>26599365 #
57. graywh ◴[] No.26598317{6}[source]
no, https://www.tva.com/energy/our-power-system/hydroelectric/ra...
58. thiht ◴[] No.26598326{4}[source]
That sounds extremely expensive and not very green.
59. kragen ◴[] No.26598327{4}[source]
Production and consumption are objective. Needs are subjective. The only objective necessity for a living thing is its death — everything else is optional. To think otherwise is wishful thinking.

The behavior of living systems is to expand when not constrained by resources; the human economy has been constrained by fossil fuels for 250 years, due to its inability to take advantage of solar energy, much as it was constrained by agricultural production for the preceding 12000 years, with occasional exceptions like petroleum-drilling-fueled salt refining in the Song dynasty. Since about 02015, solar energy has been brought within within the scope of what the human economy can effectively consume directly, rather than through agriculture.

Very few people have noticed this yet or understand what it means; it's still common to hear foolish remarks like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26220534 "I don't actually see where solar and wind are actually powering a modern economy. I see a lot hope and handwaving." The early stages of exponential growth are indistinguishable from the early stages of sigmoid growth that's an order of magnitude or more from its asymptote; you can't simply extrapolate the growth empirically. You need to understand the underlying dynamics of the system. And so it's very easy to fool yourself, whether out of wishful thinking, vulnerability to manipulation by others, or simple random error. And so far solar energy is under 10% of world electricity generation and under 3% of the IEA's world marketed energy consumption.

So I could be mistaken. Although the solar resource is three orders of magnitude larger than current world marketed energy consumption, maybe there's some limiting factor that will choke off the consumption of solar energy through photovoltaic cells. The most ignorant have suggested that rare-earth metals are such a limiting factor, unaware that solar panels do not use any rare-earth metals. Less absurd is silver: current silicon solar cells use screen-printed silver-paste electrodes, which accounts for some 10% of the cost of the cell and some 10% of world silver mining, so the next order-of-magnitude increase in solar-panel production will probably require the substitution of abundant copper, which will reduce the cells' efficiency.

But the most plausible limitation is storage — a solar power plant is not a direct replacement for a coal power plant unless it's coupled with some kind of utility-scale energy-storage system, which considerably reduces its cost advantage relative to thermal generation stations.

But this is only a limitation insofar as scalable consumers of such intermittent power fail to appear. Traditionally, for example, people would work during the day, leaving their tools idle at night, but this becomes less economically appealing for more capital-intensive forms of production, because they increase the capital cost of leaving your capital goods idle one-third or two-thirds of the time, increasing capital inputs per unit of production by respectively 50% and 200%. Solar-powered industry without enough energy storage to last it through the night and through cloudy days will thus have to pay higher costs of capital per unit of production.

But it seems implausible to me that no profitable and scalable industries exist for which the cost savings from near-zero-cost energy would exceed the cost savings from 24/7 productivity.

So, are there other limiting factors I don't know about?

It may be hard to imagine what humans will use 100 GW or 1000 GW on. But in 01800 it was hard to imagine what we would use 1 GW on (if we don't count agricultural production, which the IEA doesn't). Steam-engines were stationary machines, used mostly to pump water out of mines, and in some cases to drive looms in manufactories; the steam locomotive hadn't been invented yet. Steam-ships had been conclusively shown to be impractical by the disastrous experiments of Papin, Allen, Hulls, Henry, and Fitch; Henry's boat had sunk when he tried to put a steam-engine in it. Fitch's boat at least didn't sink, but his fares couldn't pay the heavy expenses required by the steam-engine. Doctors expressed skepticism about whether the human body could withstand the unbelievable velocities some of the wilder "engineers" were talking about, such as 30 miles per hour or even more. Fulton had met Henry, but hadn't yet seen a steamboat, much less built one. Steam-engines were also notorious for exploding, killing people en masse, and filling their surroundings with poisonous fumes; many doubted their use would ever be widespread.

Yet in 01830 the B&O Railroad was running the 1-kilowatt Tom Thumb steam locomotive down its 23 miles of track (37 km in non-medieval units) at 18 mph (8 m/s) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_and_Ohio_Railroad#Ea..., and similar lines were running in England and France. Steam-ships were starting to cross the Atlantic, cutting the transit time to a mere month, and paddle-powered steam-boats plied the Thames, the Seine, the Ohio, the Mississippi, and the Great Lakes. Such is the impact of the advent of a new source of energy.

Remember that in the 01950s von Neumann reprimanded one of his graduate students for writing a compiler, saying that a valuable scientific instrument like the computer should not be wasted on clerical work. What would von Neumann have thought of https://hackaday.com/2021/03/26/nixie-shot-timer-adds-useful..., where a computer runs 16 million instructions per second to detect when a pump has turned on in an espresso machine? Could even such a great mind as von Neumann have imagined such a thing, much less condoned such an irresponsible waste of precious computation?

So we should expect that in 02051 people will be using cheap solar energy for innumerable purposes that today would seem absurdly profligate.

It's also possible that world wars, pandemics, global dictatorships, or other civilization-collapsing events will slow or stop the growth in human use of solar energy. But it seems probable that, barring such calamities, solar energy production will continue to grow until it's a significant percentage of total terrestrial insolation, which is the point at which the plant-shading and heat-retention effects start to become significant.

replies(1): >>26602275 #
60. flgb ◴[] No.26598329[source]
I suspect most of the intermittency of wind and solar will be addressed through super-capacity (500% of peak demand, not 100%) and geographic diversity. Batteries will be used for very short-term local balancing and power regulation ... then for those occasional times when hydro, wind and solar don’t cut it, we’ll still burn a little gas but it will be bio gas or green hydrogen, rather than fossil gas. This gas will be expensive, but these plants will hardly ever run.
replies(3): >>26598721 #>>26599063 #>>26599204 #
61. manfredo ◴[] No.26598345{4}[source]
And then we'd have to continue that production for two and a half decades to get to 1 day of storage. And we'd also have to drastically increase our battery recycling capacity to match (remember most lithium ion batteries last 1000-2000 cycles).
replies(1): >>26598377 #
62. flgb ◴[] No.26598353{4}[source]
Not in Australia, where we have much more roof-top solar (and which is less than half-the-price installed of roof-top in the US)
replies(1): >>26598740 #
63. Danieru ◴[] No.26598357{3}[source]
This is a allowed but semi-rare technique in Japan. Rare because of the capital costs to built the panels. Certain high end plants, such as tea, prefer the shade.
replies(1): >>26609346 #
64. jeffbee ◴[] No.26598377{5}[source]
Nobody needs 1 full day of storage.
replies(2): >>26598416 #>>26599546 #
65. TooDarkToRead ◴[] No.26598379{3}[source]
And the same concept as pumped hydro can by applied in other ways that don't require a waterway or quite as much physical infrastructure, https://www.vox.com/2016/4/28/11524958/energy-storage-rail is an example.
66. m463 ◴[] No.26598406{4}[source]
You're probably right. Aim fixed panels for the brightest part of the day and use batteries and that will probably solve most problems.

What I think is interesting abouts trees is that they can take in energy even when the sun is low on the horizon, they have good ventilation so they don't overheat, and they work no matter what angle the sun is facing.

The giant sequoias get a lot of their moisture directly from the air.

Maybe we could add functions to our "tree-shaped solar panels" like fresh water gathering and climate control heat exchange.

67. ch4s3 ◴[] No.26598416{6}[source]
One could imagine a series of cloudy windless days in the northern latitudes during the winter. Perhaps a large enough gird solves that problem? I have no clue.
replies(4): >>26598531 #>>26598608 #>>26599054 #>>26609437 #
68. pydry ◴[] No.26598481{3}[source]
>Even achieving just one hour of storage globally amounts to 2.5 TWh of storage. By comparison the entire world produces ~300 GWh worth of lithium ion battery

What's the point of this comparison?

Lithium ion batteries are probably the least cost effective means of dealing with intermittency. It's also rare that the entire world is without wind and sun simultaneously.

In terms of cost:

Demand shaping < overproduction < pumped storage < < lithium ion batteries

replies(1): >>26598979 #
69. someperson ◴[] No.26598482{3}[source]
You may be interested in the video The LED Traffic Light and the Danger of "But Sometimes!" by Technology Connections: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiYO1TObNz8
70. E-Reverance ◴[] No.26598500[source]
An additional benefit of solar is that it is the most politically stable energy source since it can be deployed off-grid. This is important because the more unstable regions of the world can sometimes be seen as hopeless because investments require high upfront costs and can't be trusted with being properly maintained. Therefore solar can enable growth and be deployed during periods of unrest/conflict.
71. polyomino ◴[] No.26598517[source]
What if instead of pulling carbon above ground, we inject oxygen underground, produce electricity and CO2 below ground and then leave the CO2 down there. Has anyone tried this?
replies(1): >>26598679 #
72. gruez ◴[] No.26598526[source]
>international grids

Europe didn't want to act when russia invaded crimea, because russia supplied all the gas. Being dependent on your neighbors for your electricity supply and having no backup would only make this problem worse.

replies(2): >>26598562 #>>26598747 #
73. lutorm ◴[] No.26598531{7}[source]
But the key is that if you're averaging globally, the solar power probably doesn't change much. You'll need a way to transport the energy instead, obviously.
74. psadri ◴[] No.26598549{3}[source]
We could use day time electricity to generate fuels to burn at night. As long as it’s net-zero wrt to CO2 emissions, it will be fine.
75. meepmorp ◴[] No.26598562{3}[source]
Isn't that an argument for greater integration, to provide redundant sources of energy?
76. chrisco255 ◴[] No.26598585{7}[source]
Yeah but in this case, the hydropower is being used for power generation, not as a battery supplement for solar/wind, right? Does it need to be so massive to act as a replacement/alternative for Lithium battery banks?
replies(1): >>26601245 #
77. jeremysalwen ◴[] No.26598590{5}[source]
Assuming there aren't economies of scale. Demand for solar had gone way up in recent decades (e.g. in germany, before it was cheap), and the price subsequently went down.
replies(1): >>26598675 #
78. mgolawala ◴[] No.26598594{3}[source]
Why would we use lithium ion batteries?

I would imagine the approach to store the energy would be to use the energy from solar panels to do work that can be used to produce electricity later.

For example, you could use solar energy to pump water back uphill to flow down through a hydro electric dam later.

Even if it isn't the most efficient, in the long run it would likely provide the best scalability and least long term environmental impact. Once you have the facility in place, the same water could be pumped uphill to flow back down a million times over with the only overhead replacing water lost through evaporation and maintaining the facility.

Am I missing something that makes such an approach unfeasible?

replies(2): >>26598735 #>>26598738 #
79. pfdietz ◴[] No.26598608{7}[source]
One would not use batteries for the "rare, but prolonged" storage use case. You'd want something with lower capital cost, even if it were much less efficient. For example: hydrogen burned in turbines.
replies(2): >>26598820 #>>26599302 #
80. pfdietz ◴[] No.26598615[source]
https://model.energy/

Play with the assumptions and find out.

81. pfdietz ◴[] No.26598623{5}[source]
Building new dams is problematic only if they are built on rivers. But pumped hydro doesn't have to be on rivers.
82. pfdietz ◴[] No.26598636{3}[source]
Using batteries for all storage use cases is bad engineering. Hydrogen can be stored underground for $1/kWh of energy storage capacity (there is also a per-kW cost, but it is independent of the size of the underground storage caverns). Use that (burned in turbines) instead of batteries for the rare correlated outages of solar/wind, and the cost goes down.
83. mlyle ◴[] No.26598675{6}[source]
It's not clear batteries will do the same. While there's been effort to make batteries less reliant on scarce natural resources and mining, there's no guarantee we really get there. If we don't, price can be expected to go up, not down, with scale.

I would bet on price going down slightly with scale, but one can't really tell now what will happen: it might go up a lot, it might go down a lot, or it might stay flat.

replies(1): >>26598795 #
84. pfdietz ◴[] No.26598678[source]
Look at the solution you get for Alaska in https://model.energy/

It's a combination of solar, wind, and hydrogen (with a little battery storage).

85. kragen ◴[] No.26598679[source]
This is more or less what post-combustion capture carbon-capture-and-storage plants do, with the minor detail that they do the actual combustion above ground instead of below ground. But the inputs and outputs are as you describe: oxygen from the air, fossil fuels from underground, CO₂ outputs injected back underground, heat outputs sent to somewhere unspecified, typically the air.

CCS power stations are substantially more expensive than the usual kind of fossil-fuel power station, and they are generally considered to be economically uncompetitive.

It's probably better to do the actual combustion aboveground in many cases—although it makes your power plants easier to blow up with bombs, it also makes them enormously easier to build and maintain, and much less dangerous to work in when nobody is trying to blow them up.

replies(1): >>26599378 #
86. pfdietz ◴[] No.26598696[source]
Cost of a new nuclear powerplant: $10,000/kW

Cost of a simple cycle gas turbine powerplant: $400/kW (combined cycle, $1000/kW)

Go ahead and back up those renewables. It's still less expensive than installing nuclear, even if the turbines burn renewable-derived hydrogen.

replies(1): >>26598897 #
87. grayfaced ◴[] No.26598721{3}[source]
Or super-capacity could be used on energy intensive operations, such as desalination plants.
88. kragen ◴[] No.26598735{4}[source]
My comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26597661 links to a number of overviews of the issue, including MacKay's chapter in which he covers pumped storage in about as much depth as you can possibly hope in a 20-page chapter aimed at a general audience. Go read it!
89. manfredo ◴[] No.26598738{4}[source]
Hydroelectric storage is geographically dependent. You need the right topography and access to water. Likewise, hydroelectric storage takes a long time to build.
90. kragen ◴[] No.26598740{5}[source]
Interesting! Do you have any idea why it's so much cheaper?
replies(2): >>26598754 #>>26600710 #
91. dukeofdoom ◴[] No.26598746[source]
So I've been watching these Van build outs into full time living vans for travel. Most of them have solor panels on the roof, and 3 two hundred watt batteries. One guy said it would take him 23 days to fully charge these batteries off of solar vs just a few hours to charged them from the alternator when he is driving. It just doesn't seem very practical at this point. They all seem to have 2 or 3 thousand watt panels on the roof. Is he correct? How does the math work here? How long should it take for a 1000 Watt panel to charge a two hundred watt battery?
replies(2): >>26599105 #>>26609296 #
92. scoopertrooper ◴[] No.26598747{3}[source]
But solar would effectively level the playing field. Countries would become interdependent upon one another for energy rather than being dependent.
93. dragonwriter ◴[] No.26598754{6}[source]
Shipping costs from China, who is the source of key materials?
replies(1): >>26598814 #
94. Qwertious ◴[] No.26598763{3}[source]
>By comparison the entire world produces ~300 GWh worth of lithium ion battery annually.

And this will increase a hundredfold to make EV production possible.

That means that if 10% of production goes to stationary storage then within 10 years, we'll have 10 full global hours of storage.

If there's serious demand then the supply will scale up to create it.

Also, old EV batteries will provide plenty of extra stationary storage. Not to mention batteries still in EVs, in a pinch.

Realistically we won't throw insane amounts of storage at the problem. We'll make demand more flexible so it does work when electricity is cheap and eases off when it becomes more expensive.

For instance, something like heating: why store the electricity for heating? Wouldn't it make more sense for a house to have some form of heavily-insulated thermal mass that it can massively heat when electricity is dirt cheap, then tap into at midnight without drawing power? Storing heat is cheap, you just need a giant block of concrete with solid insulation. You don't need fancy nanoscale tech like with lithium-ion.

Even something like a kettle: the hot water taps you see at companies that are pre-heated. Have a home-version. Insulate the shit out of that and do 90% of the boiling with peak electricity.

And that's not even touching industrial power usage.

Trying to ape past systems that were based on flat electricity prices just seems like a failure of imagination. Of course it would be expensive, but why the heck would you even want to?

replies(2): >>26599031 #>>26605495 #
95. pfdietz ◴[] No.26598795{7}[source]
There are thousands of different chemistries for batteries. The nuclear stans are betting that all of them fail.
replies(2): >>26598835 #>>26609326 #
96. kragen ◴[] No.26598814{7}[source]
You might think so, but no. It's the wrong order of magnitude.

That could add maybe US$2000 per TEU, which is 21 tonnes of cargo such as solar panels. You can ship a TEU anywhere in the world for US$3000 or less. A 1m² solar panel might weigh 20 kg, so that's roughly 1000 solar pannels, or US$2 per solar panel. That solar panel is about 200 Wp, so this works out to US$0.01 of shipping cost per peak watt. Or less.

The solar module itself costs some US$0.18/Wp wholesale (the article cites higher prices, but see http://pvinsights.com/ https://www.solarserver.de/pv-modulpreise/ https://www.energytrend.com/solar-price.html for more detailed and reliable pricing info), and the whole installation including the panels maybe US$0.50/Wp. So there's no way that an extra US$0.01/Wp could double the cost of the installation. Bump it by 2% maybe.

China isn't the source of key materials. There aren't any key materials; the ingredients in PV cells, except for silver, are abundant everywhere. It's the source of the fully manufactured photovoltaic modules, a finished product that you can prop up in the sun and connect to a battery through a diode. If shipping costs were so high relative to the value of the finished product, every country would have its own solar-cell manufacturing plants, the way every country has its own liquid-oxygen plants, and there wouldn't be such a thing as a worldwide concentration of PV manufacturing in China.

replies(1): >>26678669 #
97. Qwertious ◴[] No.26598818{7}[source]
Obvious solution that I'm sure has already been considered: dig down 1000 meters and build the "below" reservoir there. Even if the "above" reservoir is at ground level, you'll still get 10x the storage.
replies(1): >>26598945 #
98. Manfredo_1 ◴[] No.26598820{8}[source]
Hydrogen storage remains in the prototyping phase. We have no significant amount of hydrogen grid storage. Like thermal batteries or synthetic methane, hydrogen represents a potential storage solution but not one that we know will scale and be effectively deployed at the scope required.

If we actually deploy 50 GWh of hydrogen storage, and demonstrate that it can cheaply and reliability be built at scale then your point would be valid. But until then, hydrogen represents a theoretical solution not an actual solution.

replies(2): >>26598873 #>>26605182 #
99. Manfredo_1 ◴[] No.26598835{8}[source]
None of those other battery chemistries are seeing the massive growth that lithium ion batteries have experienced. The nuclear "stans" are just pointing out that these are potential solutions, not actual solutions. If iron oxide batteries, or some other chemistry, suddenly becomes cheap and easily deployed at the TWh scale, great. But until then they're not a solution.
replies(2): >>26598857 #>>26609329 #
100. pfdietz ◴[] No.26598857{9}[source]
Yes, you all are engaging in the "nothing can be invented" argument. It's profoundly reactionary, and also hypocritical, because nuclear itself is dead without great improvement. Uranium quickly runs out if the world is powered by burner reactors and known uranium resources, so either massive seawater uranium extraction or breeding cycles would be needed.

Batteries have the advantage of being explorable at a small scale. Now that the potential market has become so clear this is happening, in many companies.

replies(2): >>26598943 #>>26599219 #
101. pfdietz ◴[] No.26598873{9}[source]
All the components of hydrogen, with the possible exception of low cost electrolyzers, don't need to be prototyped. It's existing technology. It's not like (say) molten salt reactors, in which fundamental development remains to be done.
replies(1): >>26598899 #
102. flavius29663 ◴[] No.26598891{3}[source]
storage alone will almost never be enough. The electricity is just too important for the modern societies to leave it to chance. You will have events where there will be no wind or sun for weeks. In order to have that many batteries it would require monumental investments. And those batteries would sit unused for years.

You need a diverse and distributed generation network, backed by gas burning plants.

replies(1): >>26599221 #
103. flavius29663 ◴[] No.26598897{3}[source]
either way, the original point remains: solar and wind alone are not reliable enough.
replies(1): >>26599299 #
104. Manfredo_1 ◴[] No.26598899{10}[source]
Right, and what company can I call right now to install 50GWh of hydrogen storage?

It's existing technology, but it's a novel application of that technology. We haven't used hydrogen electrolysis as a form of grid storage before. And we certainly haven't used it for grid storage at the Terawatt hour scale. And that the scale we'll need to make wind and solar viable. 1 TWh isn't even 30 minutes of global electricity consumption.

replies(2): >>26598963 #>>26599089 #
105. belltaco ◴[] No.26598916{5}[source]
I don't get it, are these built on people's yards?

https://constructionreviewonline.com/biggest-projects/top-5-...

106. Manfredo_1 ◴[] No.26598943{10}[source]
It's not "nothing can be invented". It's "come back to me after it's invented, not before".

And uranium seawater extraction already exists: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2016/07/01/uranium-s...

It's more expensive than mined uranium, but since fissile material is so energy-dense that increase in fuel cost amounts to hardly any change in overall cost.

replies(1): >>26599292 #
107. c0nsumer ◴[] No.26598945{8}[source]
The water needs to go somewhere to generate power. Most water tables are much closer to the surface than 1000 meters. Meaning, the water would have no way to go without pumping it back up...
replies(1): >>26601135 #
108. pfdietz ◴[] No.26598963{11}[source]
50 GWh of hydrogen would fit in one salt cavern of the kind already made for natural gas. Any numbers of companies can solution mine those caverns for you; that technology is many decades old. I'd need more information about the rest of what you want, as that scales by power not by energy capacity.
replies(1): >>26599007 #
109. Manfredo_1 ◴[] No.26598979{4}[source]
"Demand shaping" is a nice euphemism for energy shortages. And if we demand shaping we're just externalizing the cost to consumers that need to buy their own energy storage or change their energy usage patterns to accommodate the unreliable supply.

Overproduction helps but doesn't eliminate intermittency. And pumped hydroelectricity is geographically dependent. The irony is that most places with extensive hydroelectric storage potential don't need wind and solar in the first place because they get their energy from hydroelectric generation.

replies(4): >>26599023 #>>26599033 #>>26599617 #>>26601431 #
110. Manfredo_1 ◴[] No.26599007{12}[source]
And are we currently using any of these caverns for electrolysis and grid storage? All you said is that we have a big cavern that we could fill with hydrogen. I'm asking if anybody is actually building hydrogen grid storage at any significant scale. Are there any facilities that take in excess energy from renewables, turn it into hydrogen, and then turn that hydrogen back into electricity?

We both know the answer: there aren't any.

Back in the 1950s people thought nuclear power would be cheaper than fossil fuels. They thought it'd be effectively free. The energy density of uranium is so much better, so clearly generating electricity with it would be much cheaper. But actually deploying a technology at scale reveals more and more challenges.

Your proposal for hydrogen storage is in the same phase that nuclear power was in during the 1950s. A solution that exists on paper, but one that hasn't actually encountered and overcome the challenges of implementing it at scale. Same with thermal batteries, synthetic methane, and so on. These are proposals that haven't passed the test of actual implementation at scale.

replies(1): >>26599327 #
111. asdfasgasdgasdg ◴[] No.26599023{5}[source]
There is always a shortage of electricity. Someone could always use more if it were free to do so. Economics is the study of the allocation of resources in the face of scarcity -- that is, all allocation of resources except perhaps breathable air. There's no need for a euphemism here because limitations on the consumption of energy are ever-present -- demand shaping is simply about making the signal stronger.
replies(1): >>26599041 #
112. Symbiote ◴[] No.26599031{4}[source]
The heater you describe is called a storage heater.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storage_heater

113. crummy ◴[] No.26599033{5}[source]
Isn't demand shaping things like discounts during certain periods? My electricity provider lets me set a 'free hour of power' every day, as long as that hour is off peak.
replies(1): >>26599050 #
114. Manfredo_1 ◴[] No.26599041{6}[source]
There are rarely shortages of electricity in the US. There were some in California during Covid, and the state had to do rolling blackouts. But no, there are rarely shortages of electricity.

Yes, someone could use more of it than we could supply. But they don't. The existing supply is sufficient to meet demand. And when demand changes, we are capable of increasing supply.

115. Manfredo_1 ◴[] No.26599050{6}[source]
Yes, those incentives exist to try and shape demand. But in practice, people rarely take advantage of them. And some things really can't be shaped. The pumps that deliver your water cannot have their demand shaped, unless you're willing to go without running water for some hours of the day.
replies(2): >>26599155 #>>26601771 #
116. acdha ◴[] No.26599054{7}[source]
That’s a problem if you’re an island isolated from everyone else, and you don’t have geothermal, hydroelectric, or nuclear options. The better question is how much capacity you’d need on a national grid to be able to handle large regional sags in production without endangering people.

As we recently saw with Texas’ catastrophic fossil fuel production failures the big problem is not the source but poor management and not being able to get help from the neighbors.

117. tzs ◴[] No.26599059{5}[source]
That's lithium batteries, isn't it? For storage to balance out fluctuations in renewable sources you shouldn't need to use lithium.

It's used in cars and consumer devices because it can store a lot of energy for its size and weight and you don't have to mollycoddle it to avoid memory effects.

Those are much less important concerns for this application. You'd build you battery facilities somewhere outside your cities, perhaps near where you build your solar farms, and you don't need the batteries to move. Batteries that take up more room and/or weigh more than lithium batteries for a given capacity should be fine.

replies(1): >>26599745 #
118. intrepidhero ◴[] No.26599062{3}[source]
Let me introduce you to flow batteries. Lithium is a terrible choice for grid scale storage, except maybe as a secondary use of idle EVs.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery

119. zizee ◴[] No.26599063{3}[source]
I agree entirely. I chose the 1 hour of storage as a number because I had to say something, and I didn't want to go to low as it would undoubtedly knee jerk responses of "that's not enough, you need X hours".

The main point I was going for is that we shouldn't think of a national network in the same way as we think of a off grid house with solar, where you have to deal with many hours without sunlight, and have storage capacity for several days of rain.

In a similar vein, the intermittency of solar and wind look bad when you look at isolated generation instances, but when you have a continent spanning network, the intermittency is reduced as the wind is always blowing somewhere, and the sun is shining for many more hours than when you look at any single point on map.

Again, I would love to see the numbers if you were plan out a realistic build out of this ideal network. It would probably be a pretty big number, but how would it compare to building out with nuclear, or even just lots of coal power plants from scratch.

120. Hypx ◴[] No.26599089{11}[source]
https://www.pv-magazine.com/2020/06/16/hydrogen-storage-in-s...

We could easily have Petawatt-hour scale hydrogen energy storage.

replies(1): >>26599131 #
121. philipkglass ◴[] No.26599105{3}[source]
I think that your recollection is incomplete or garbled. Modern solar panels are about 20% efficient. They can generate about 200 watts per square meter in midday sun with clear skies. 2000 to 3000 watts of panels would be about 10-15 square meters (107-161 square feet). Do these vans actually have roofs that large, completely covered with panels?

You might expect roof top panels with sub-optimal orientation to generate about 12.5% of their peak rating when averaged over a year. That would be 375 watts, annualized, from a system with a peak capacity of 3000 watts. There is no van-portable battery system currently on the market that can store 375 * 24 * 23 = 207,000 watt-hours. (For comparison, the Tesla Model S battery stores 100,000 watt-hours.)

My guess is that you are not correctly recalling how much solar capacity these vans have installed. When I Google for van life solar I get guides and kits referencing much less power.

For example, this guide:

https://www.genericvan.life/2018/04/30/complete-vanlife-sola...

uses a single 150 watt panel. Based on the photo the article includes, I don't think that the van rooftop has room for more than 3 panels of this type.

replies(1): >>26599289 #
122. Manfredo_1 ◴[] No.26599131{12}[source]
No, you have salt caverns with a volume sufficient to accommodate a lot of hydrogen. Actually implementing such a solution involves massive scale electrolysis, and either massive scales of oxidation cells or gas turbines designed to burn hydrogen. Neither of these things have been done at anything remotely close to the scale required to make renewables feasible.

Back in the 1950s people thought that nuclear power would be effectively free. But actually building it at scale exposed challenges of implementation that weren't foreseen. The cost of a system on paper and the cost after overcoming the challenges of actually building it are two very different things. For hydrogen storage, you only have the former.

replies(1): >>26599162 #
123. panarky ◴[] No.26599155{7}[source]
If we paid the true cost of peak power, it might be worth pumping water with off-peak power and storing it locally.
replies(1): >>26599542 #
124. Hypx ◴[] No.26599162{13}[source]
Those gas turbines you're referring to can simply be modified natural gas gas turbines. The only limiting factor would be electrolysis, but that is already something people are planning to build a lot of.

Nuclear's problem are fundamentally political in nature. If we really cared about green energy, nuclear power could easily be built out at scale.

replies(1): >>26599213 #
125. Hypx ◴[] No.26599204{3}[source]
Super-capacity is going to be a major driver for the build-out of water electrolysis for the production of hydrogen. You can turn what will basically be a waste product into a highly useful fuel. I've seen people contend that this will be expensive, but given the very cheap input costs I believe this will be a very cheap process.
126. Manfredo_1 ◴[] No.26599213{14}[source]
No, hydrogen rapidly corrodes any metals that it comes into contact with. If they are interchangeable, expect drastically smaller service intervals.
replies(3): >>26599307 #>>26599329 #>>26600148 #
127. mlyle ◴[] No.26599219{10}[source]
> Yes, you all are engaging in the "nothing can be invented" argument.

No, we're engaging in the "this has been resistant to being invented so far, so let's not bet everything on it showing up tomorrow" argument.

> Uranium quickly runs out if the world is powered by burner reactors and known uranium resources

You could quadruple the present rate of uranium use, representing in a major contribution to mankind's energy use, and have 35 years of supply, just using known reserves and no breeding.

And if you were using that much uranium, more reserves would be quickly proven. Do you think we've found all the uranium we'll ever find, even if market prices go up significantly?

And breeding is possible, and understood. Yes, there's proliferation concerns, but that's not the end of the world.

And seawater extraction is practical without much increase in cost.

No one is saying "no renewables" or "no battery storage" or "no pumped storage". Or "no power to gas to power". We need all of these things. And we need the diversity of having nuclear in the mix, too.

replies(1): >>26599346 #
128. yazaddaruvala ◴[] No.26599221{4}[source]
I mean, gas definitely doesn't *need to* be involved. At that point you're better off with fission.

For example, the US is connected north to south in 2 electric grids (TX excludes itself, but is huge). Making all three of those grids large enough that the sun definitely isn't obscured for weeks.

Additionally, places like India are talking about building a "world gird" to be the solar power generator for the world.

replies(1): >>26599465 #
129. dukeofdoom ◴[] No.26599289{4}[source]
Yes, sorry, I think I got the numbers wrong by a factor of ten. Most seem to use two or three 100 watt panels. So 300 watts is what they are getting in total for most of these build outs. But they usually leave space for fans. So I think absolute max might be something closer to double that. So can you answer with this correction?
130. pfdietz ◴[] No.26599292{11}[source]
LOL. Hydrogen storage is much more invented than seawater uranium extraction. All the components are close to off the shelf; it's just a matter of putting them together (and for the CO2 tax to be high enough to make it worthwhile).

Seawater uranium extraction is at a much lower TRL (technology readiness level).

This is an excellent example of your hypocritical double standards on this subject.

replies(1): >>26599313 #
131. pfdietz ◴[] No.26599299{4}[source]
Back up with turbines and an adequate hydrogen store and solar/wind are as reliable as you wish.

(EDIT: we are in violent agreement?)

replies(1): >>26599416 #
132. rangoon626 ◴[] No.26599300[source]
I already know not going to find any sympathy on this site but the truth is that something that shocks me again and again is how everyone preaches battery storage without thinking about how dirty and polluting the process is to mine the materials and turn them into a finished battery product is.

How can people ignore this end of the lifecycle of lithium ion batteries? Is it just out of sight, out of mind?

Same with the solar panels. To install them at meaningful scale, do people not think about the amount of mining, manufacturing and energy it is going to take to make that many panels?

It seems even more absurd given the limited lifetime of both solutions.

Genuinely curious how proponents of this energy system square all of this.

133. rhodozelia ◴[] No.26599302{8}[source]
Who pays for the shadow generation system that we keep perfectly maintained and ready to generate 100% of system demand on the 5 days stretch of cloudy windless days? This cost has to be added to the cost of building a 100% solar/wind system.

Nobody is arguing the solar and wind power isn’t cheap, but the cost of power on those cloudy windless weeks is going to be real high to make having all that standby generation around. It’s the cost to achieve the same reliability and 99% carbon free that is expensive.

Money is imaginary and global warming isn’t so let’s just print some bonds or move some numbers around in some database and build it all! - an electrical power engineer

replies(1): >>26599381 #
134. pfdietz ◴[] No.26599307{15}[source]
> No, hydrogen rapidly corrodes any metals that it comes into contact with.

The industries that manipulate tens of millions of tons of hydrogen each year would be astounded to hear this statement of yours. What are those facilities made of, unobtainium?

135. Manfredo_1 ◴[] No.26599313{12}[source]
Name one hydrogen electric grid storage facility. Not prototypes, but actual commercial facilities connected to the grid.

You insist that hydrogen is so technically ready, yet nobody is using it.

replies(1): >>26599361 #
136. pfdietz ◴[] No.26599327{13}[source]
Dude. You are falling back to the "if it isn't already being done, it can't be done" argument. Please stop this foolishness.

Hydrogen is being stored in a few places. That the storage isn't larger isn't because of any technical obstacles, it's because there's no reason to store it now. In particular, when we can burn natural gas without CO2 charges, using the hydrogen for energy storage is pointless.

This doesn't mean hydrogen CAN'T be stored, it just means the market conditions for widespread adoption of an off-the-self technology aren't there yet.

replies(1): >>26599476 #
137. Hypx ◴[] No.26599329{15}[source]
A claim which simply isn't true. Only certain alloys have a problem with hydrogen. We've been using hydrogen in industry for decades and most of this problem has been solved.
replies(1): >>26599399 #
138. elihu ◴[] No.26599340[source]
I wonder what the limits are on transmitting power around the world? Like, if we wanted to connect Northern Africa to the North American power grid, how feasible would it be, and what would the losses and power capacity be?

It seems that with all the interest in using ReBCO tape in tokomaks due to its ability to transmit more power at higher temperatures than the materials that preceded it (used, for example in ITER) that it could be used to transmit power over long distances. Has anyone actually done it yet, or is it just too expensive? (Apparently the current capacity of superconducting cable is finite; if you run too much current through it, it'll transition to becoming non-superconducting. So maybe the amount of ReBCO tape needed per unit of power or the amount of active cooling needed makes it impractical.)

Eventually, to be able to usefully transmit power from daytime sun to nighttime will require crossing oceans. Which I imagine would be tough to do with a cable has to be actively cooled and work for many years without maintenance. Maybe for my hypothetical North America to North Africa route, you'd run a superconducting cable down through Central and South America over to Brazil, then have a normal high-voltage DC line across the Atlantic, with another superconducting cable that crosses the Sahara.

replies(1): >>26600131 #
139. pfdietz ◴[] No.26599346{11}[source]
Not at all. The technology for hydrogen energy storage is (with the possible exception of cheap electrolysers) is off the shelf. It's not widely used not because it's not available, but because natural gas is cheaper to store and burn when there are no CO2 taxes. But the CO2 taxes will be raised enough to push natural gas out, if we're going to control global warming.
replies(1): >>26599602 #
140. pfdietz ◴[] No.26599361{13}[source]
I will repeat the reply I gave elsewhere to this argument:

Dude. You are falling back to the "if it isn't already being done, it can't be done" argument. Please stop this foolishness.

Hydrogen is being stored in a few places. That the storage isn't larger isn't because of any technical obstacles, it's because there's no reason to store it now. In particular, when we can burn natural gas without CO2 charges, using the hydrogen for energy storage is pointless.

This doesn't mean hydrogen CAN'T be stored, it just means the market conditions for widespread adoption of an off-the-self technology aren't there yet.

replies(1): >>26599454 #
141. rhodozelia ◴[] No.26599365{6}[source]
how long before I can buy a Tesla for 50% of what one costs now? If the batteries are going to get so cheap we should be seeing some great price drops in electric cars. If not ... why not? And that reason will probably apply to battery energy storage too.
142. rhodozelia ◴[] No.26599378{3}[source]
Economically uncompetitive compared to solar/wind 500% overbuilt? How many hours storage have to be added to the solar / wind to make a ccs gas plant competitive?
replies(1): >>26599500 #
143. Manfredo_1 ◴[] No.26599379[source]
That "manipulation of hydrogen" mostly involves use in the the chemical industry. We don't use hydrogen to power gas turbines.

I'm not sure why you're trying to deny the existence of chemical facts: https://www.twi-global.com/technical-knowledge/faqs/what-is-....

replies(3): >>26599502 #>>26599563 #>>26630264 #
144. pfdietz ◴[] No.26599381{9}[source]
The cost will be there, but overall it looks like it will be cheaper than nuclear.
replies(1): >>26599598 #
145. Manfredo_1 ◴[] No.26599399{16}[source]
We've been using hydrogen in the chemical industry. We haven't been using hydrogen to drive combustion turbines very much, and even then it's in a mixture of natural gas.

Unfortunately, those alloys that experience embrittlement includes the ones used in steam turbines: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S09215...

146. flavius29663 ◴[] No.26599416{5}[source]
I think we have to agree on the meaning of some words first: "wind and solar alone" means wind and solar and nothing else.

You say backup with turbines....but of course, that's what I'm saying too. gas turbines are pretty cheap, small (relatively) and easy to fire. Gas storage is also a tried technology

147. Manfredo_1 ◴[] No.26599454{14}[source]
You're falling back to the "if it works on paper it'll be guaranteed to work at scale, and work cheaply" argument. Please stop this foolishness.

It's not just a question of storage, you can just use a salt cavern for that.

It's also a question of electrolyzing water into hydrogen efficiently.

And converting it back into electricity efficently.

And building all of these systems cheaply.

And deploying all of these systems at massive scale.

We're still on the first phase of that. As per your other comment we still don't even have effective elctrolysers to do this cost-effectively [1].

Will hydrogen storage pan out? Maybe. But until then it's not a solution. It's a potential solution, like fusion, or algae in vats, and thermal storage, and all the other potential solutions being proposed. It's not a solution that has actually demonstrated viability.

!. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26599346

replies(1): >>26599560 #
148. flavius29663 ◴[] No.26599465{5}[source]
it's one thing to interconnect a few GW here and there, but to power the Texas grid you need 80GW or so. That is a humongous amount of power. You would need at least 10-20 HVDC projects that span thousands of miles each.

BTW, Texas is already connected to the other grids, but not synchronized, e.g. https://www.tdworld.com/overhead-transmission/article/209645... As we all know, these kind of connections were not enough during the big freeze.

But say you make that investment. That is still not a guarantee that you won't have a continent wide lull without sun or wind. You just can't risk it. It's cheaper and more effective to just install some gas turbines for backup. If you fire them up 2 times a year it won't matter for the CO2 budget.

replies(1): >>26600038 #
149. Manfredo_1 ◴[] No.26599476{14}[source]
Storing hydrogen is only one piece of the puzzle. Yes, if you happen to live near an abandoned salt mine that's a convenient place to put a large quantity of hydrogen. That doesn't solve the problem of massive electrolysis facilities, and turbines that can burn hydrogen.

And it certainly doesn't answer the question of whether or not this represents a viable grid-storage solution, since we haven't built it at remotely close to the scale required.

It's not "if it isn't already being done, it can't be done"

It's "if it isn't already being done, it is extremely reckless to assume that it can be done cheaply at a massive scale".

Screw it, let's just use fusion. Nobody has actually built a fusion plant? Well, who cares if it hasn't already been done, that's a "foolish argument" in your own words. /s

replies(1): >>26599541 #
150. kragen ◴[] No.26599500{4}[source]
Probably, yeah. As I said in my other comment, the whole question of utility-scale storage cost modeling is difficult to get a good handle on.
151. pfdietz ◴[] No.26599502[source]
> That "manipulation of hydrogen" mostly involves use in the the chemical industry. We don't use hydrogen to power gas turbines.

So, when you said hydrogen rapidly corrodes any metal it comes into contact with, that didn't include the metal that the chemical industry makes their equipment from? So, let's just put a "this is chemical industry" signs on our hydrogen storage plants, and presto! Magically protected!

Note that one of the things the chemical industry does with hydrogen-rich gases is burn them in combustion turbines, just like in a proposed hydrogen energy storage facility. Turbines for burning hydrogen have been available for decades. See, for example, what General Electric says:

https://www.ge.com/power/gas/fuel-capability/hydrogen-fueled...

"Our turbines have nearly 30 years of experience operating on a variety of fuels that contain hydrogen, totaling over 6 million operating hours as hydrogen-fueled turbines using concentrations ranging from 5% to 95% (by volume)."

Off. The. Shelf.

> I'm not sure why you're trying to deny the existence of chemical facts: https://www.twi-global.com/technical-knowledge/faqs/what-is-....

I'm not sure why you're presenting a link that doesn't back up the claim you made.

replies(1): >>26599586 #
152. netflixandkill ◴[] No.26599508[source]
It's not cynicism, it's understanding capacity factors and how difficult large scale storage is. If solar panels have a capacity factor of around .25, which is what we're seeing in real installations worldwide, then it is necessary to overproduce by at least 4x and store it somewhere for off-peak solar production hours.

It's even worse if there is not other dispatchable generation available unless people are willing to accept periodic blackouts.

We're in the process of building out a combined solar and battery installations in Guam, which is about the ideal case with predictable weather, predictable load, little heavy industry and low potential for load growth. It'll enable them to retire all their old fuel oil generators, but they'll be keeping the diesel/LNG plant for at least the next 30 years even if they only run it a few days worth of time every month.

replies(1): >>26616994 #
153. pfdietz ◴[] No.26599541{15}[source]
These are not abandoned salt mines, they are deliberately created caverns in salt domes. The cost of creating them is included in the capital cost ($1/kWh capacity).

Hydrogen could also be stored in depleted gas fields and in deep saline aquifers. The storage capacity available is more than adequate.

replies(1): >>26599719 #
154. Manfredo_1 ◴[] No.26599542{8}[source]
Then our transition to solar + wind needs to include the cost of installing a septic tank and water reservoir in every household. And a thermal battery for heating. And an electric battery for lighting. And all the other things we'll need to do to accommodate an unreliable energy grid.
155. Manfredo_1 ◴[] No.26599546{6}[source]
We'd actually need 3 weeks of storage to migrate to a fully renewable grid: https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2018/03/01/12-hours-energy-stora...
replies(1): >>26599637 #
156. pfdietz ◴[] No.26599560{15}[source]
Why shouldn't it scale? It's not as if it uses any rare materials. The geological formations in which hydrogen can be stored are abundant. The cost estimation should be good, since the technology is just integrating existing components. That's the easiest and surest kind of technology to roll out.
replies(1): >>26599622 #
157. Hypx ◴[] No.26599563[source]
Are you familiar with fuel gases? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_manufactured_fuel_g...

Burning hydrogen gas (blended with other gases) for heat or power has been around for a long time.

> I'm not sure why you're trying to deny the existence of chemical facts

You're projecting here.

replies(1): >>26599639 #
158. Manfredo_1 ◴[] No.26599586{3}[source]
> So, when you said hydrogen rapidly corrodes any metal it comes into contact with, that didn't include the metal that the chemical industry makes their equipment from? So, let's just put a "this is chemical industry" signs on our hydrogen storage plants, and presto! Magically protected!

I'd say you're being deliberately ignorant here, but I'm really not so sure. A gas turbine spins rapidly, putting huge stresses on the blades. They also operate at extremely high temperatures.

And from your link:

> The use of hydrogen as a gas turbine fuel has been demonstrated commercially, but there are differences between natural gas and hydrogen that must be taken into account to properly and safely use hydrogen in a gas turbine. In addition to differences in the combustion properties of these fuels, the impact to all gas turbine systems as well as the overall balance of plant, must be considered. In a power plant with one or more hydrogen-fueled turbines, changes may be needed to the fuel accessories, bottoming cycle components, and plant safety systems. GE’s broad field experience enables our engineers to understand the impact of using hydrogen as a gas turbine fuel.

Hmm, maybe not so simple.

And when we look at what's actually being deployed, it's not 100% hydrogen it's a mixture that's mostly natural gas with only a small portion of hydrogen:

https://www.nsenergybusiness.com/features/gas-turbines-hydro...

> The new gas turbines will be commercially guaranteed capable of using a mix of 30% hydrogen and 70% natural gas fuel. Between 2025 and 2045, the hydrogen capability will be systematically increased to 100% renewable hydrogen.

These turbines still mostly burn natural gas. GE says it'll get there eventually, possibly over the course of 3 decades.

replies(2): >>26599621 #>>26599647 #
159. rhodozelia ◴[] No.26599598{10}[source]
In British Columbia they are building a 1000 MW hydro plant that is going to cost 10-12 billion. Similar story at muskrat falls in Labrador.

Large projects are just expensive now. Nuclear would be competitive with either of these hydro projects.

replies(1): >>26599656 #
160. mlyle ◴[] No.26599602{12}[source]
When the largest electrolyzer we have in the world is 10MW... and hydrogen storage hasn't been demonstrated at anywhere near the scale you're talking about... it's a tad of a stretch to talk about it being "off the shelf." Particularly when you point to nuclear fuel reprocessing and breeding as nonexistent in the same thread.
replies(1): >>26599626 #
161. Qwertious ◴[] No.26599617{5}[source]
>to accommodate the unreliable supply.

You're conflating "expensive" with "unreliable". Even with infinite batteries, buying stored energy will always be more expensive than direct solar/wind.

162. pfdietz ◴[] No.26599621{4}[source]
Your grumbling and desperate denial doesn't change that turbines burning hydrogen are old hat. This is not something that any reasonable person would think won't work.

None of the issues discussed there are showstoppers. They are things that should be, and have been, tweaked.

replies(1): >>26630275 #
163. Manfredo_1 ◴[] No.26599622{16}[source]
That's a question that can't be answered until people actually build hydrogen storage facilities at scale.

Why shouldn't nuclear plants scale? They're mostly just steel and concrete. Uranium is more than 40 times more prevalent than gold, and it's energy density is such that it represents a negligible cost of operations. The technology is just scaling up existing components, we had nuclear powered submarines for a while. This is what people thought about nuclear power in the 1950s and early 60s. As plants actually started being constructed problems such as corrosion, large amounts of earth moving, metal impurities, and more were discovered and made the plants more expensive.

We haven't discovered these issues with hydrogen storage. We won't discover these issues until we actually build hydrogen storage facilities at scale. We don't know what challenges will lie in store when building hydrogen storage, because we've never done it before. This is why it's useless to talk about the cost of hydrogen storage until we actually have experience building and operating hydrogen storage plants. Our knowledge of cost of hydrogen storage is in the same situation as nuclear power in the 1950s.

164. pfdietz ◴[] No.26599626{13}[source]
We can run electrolysers in parallel to scale to any desired output level. There might be economies of scale to make them even larger, or there could be economies of manufacturing scale of making smaller ones at higher volume. PV and wind are examples of technologies that work well with large numbers of not so large units, replicated as needed. This is a nice place for a technology to be.
replies(1): >>26599674 #
165. Qwertious ◴[] No.26599637{7}[source]
From your own source:

"The solar heavy network wouldn’t need energy storage with an HVDC network."

So no, we wouldn't need that. HVDC would be far cheaper.

replies(1): >>26599659 #
166. Manfredo_1 ◴[] No.26599639{3}[source]
That link you provided doesn't encompass gas turbines. Gas turbines capable of burning hydrogen do exist, but only at smaller concentrations, 70% methane and 30% hydrogen or less.
replies(1): >>26599683 #
167. Hypx ◴[] No.26599647{4}[source]
> I'd say you're being deliberately ignorant here, but I'm really not so sure. A gas turbine spins rapidly, putting huge stresses on the blades. They also operate at extremely high temperatures.

Seriously, your projection is out of control here. A gas turbine burning hydrogen does not experience any stresses that is meaningfully different from one burning natural gas or kerosene. Simply applied engineering can solve all of the issues associated with hydrogen gas turbines.

replies(1): >>26599679 #
168. pfdietz ◴[] No.26599656{11}[source]
That hydro project doesn't sound competitive.
replies(1): >>26599717 #
169. Manfredo_1 ◴[] No.26599659{8}[source]
A solar heavy network would still need 12 hours of storage to accommodate nighttime energy use. More actually, because of greater seasonal fluctuations further from the equator.

All of the Americas experience night time simultaneously for at least 8 hours a day. Even if we ran HVDC lines to the Sahara, there's still a period of time where most sunlight is shining on the pacific ocean.

replies(1): >>26619198 #
170. mlyle ◴[] No.26599674{14}[source]
A few prototype / demonstration units at 10MW scale and lower is not proven, off the shelf technology. Fullstop.
replies(1): >>26605094 #
171. Manfredo_1 ◴[] No.26599679{5}[source]
> A gas turbine burning hydrogen does not experience any stresses that is meaningfully different from one burning natural gas or kerosene. Simply applied engineering can solve all of the issues associated with hydrogen gas turbines.

Did you misread that comment? The point was that hydrogen's application in the chemical industry don't involve turbine blades spinning at extreme speeds at high temperatures.

Yes, the principle of combusting a gas, driving a turbine with the expanding gas, and using that turbine to drive a compressor is the same. That doesn't mean you can just feed a gasoline powered turbine hydrogen and be done with it. The turbines that can run hydrogen today can only run a small portion of it.

https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2020/12/08/...

> The challenges of using hydrogen go beyond body shape, though. Redesigning a turbine engine to run on the stuff will be a multi-billion-dollar endeavour. Hydrogen burns faster than kerosene, and also burns hotter. That means materials exposed to its combustion experience greater stresses. It also risks increasing the pollution generated in the form of oxides of nitrogen, which would partially negate the environmental benefits of burning hydrogen. And it would be useful as well to arrange matters so that some of the energy used to compress or liquefy the hydrogen for storage could be recovered and put to work.

The Soviets built a plane that flew on hydrogen, but it only completed 100 flights. And only part of those were with hydrogen, the rest were with natural gas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-155

replies(1): >>26599709 #
172. Hypx ◴[] No.26599683{4}[source]
In addition to what I said in the other post regarding gas turbines, you also don't need a gas turbine to generate power. As long as you can boil water the rest follows logically.

Honestly, you should learn some thermodynamics and chemistry before accusing others of being ignorant.

replies(1): >>26599690 #
173. Manfredo_1 ◴[] No.26599690{5}[source]
Right, but then we're not talking about combined-cycle gas turbines to convert hydrogen back into electricity. If we're going to boil water than that's much less efficient than the ~66% efficiency we get out of combined cycle gas turbines.

Also, in case you weren't aware a combined cycle turbine also involves boiling water and spinning a turbine. The reason why they're so efficient is because energy is extracted both from the gas turbine (basically a jet engine) and a steam turbine driven by the heat from the exhaust from the gas turbine.

>Honestly, you should learn some thermodynamics and chemistry before accusing others of being ignorant.

Hydrogen embrittlement is a real thing, don't just go hand-waving it away: https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f12/hpwgw_em...

What about thermodynamics am I missing?

replies(1): >>26599747 #
174. Hypx ◴[] No.26599709{6}[source]
> The Soviets built a plane that flew on hydrogen, but it only completed 100 flights. And only part of those were with hydrogen, the rest were with natural gas: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-155

So you admit this has been done since the 1980s? You seriously don't think we can improve on 33 year old technology?

How dishonest are you going to get before you will admit you were wrong?

replies(1): >>26599735 #
175. rhodozelia ◴[] No.26599717{12}[source]
I guess not, but when two or three projects come in at the 10 billion cad mark it’s a pretty good sign that’s our cost to build. Not necessarily unique to hydro - we might have high cost to build anything
176. Manfredo_1 ◴[] No.26599719{16}[source]
For the third time, storage is only one part of the puzzle. We also need a way to cheaply electrolyze water into hydrogen, compress it into the storage facility, and then use it to generate electricity. Nobody doubts that you can pump hydrogen into a big cave. What's dubious is transforming this into a usable energy-storage facility.

We haven't done this to provide 100 MWh of storage. How on earth can we be confident it'll be easy to provide 1 TWh of storage, or 10 TWh?

People mostly talk about lithium ion storage because that's what's actually available, besides geographically limited options like hydroelectricity. Until there's a company that's building dozens of gigawatt hours of hydrogen storage it's a moot point. It's a technology that exists the laboratory, not one that's commercially available.

177. Manfredo_1 ◴[] No.26599735{7}[source]
It was done for a very short duration during the 1980s as a technology demonstrator. A prototype, not an actually commercially viable product. Yes, we can improve on a 33 year old technology, but it's not something we can just buy off the shelf. GE thinks it'll take until 2045 to make turbines that run off of 100% hydrogen.

> How dishonest are you going to get before you will admit you were wrong?

When you show me where I can buy a gas turbine that runs off of hydrogen. Not a gas turbine that runs mostly off of natural gas with a little bit of hydrogen mixed in. Not a press release of a company saying "we have experience with hydrogen turbines". If you're going to say that hydrogen gas turbines are off-the-shelf then show me the shelf off of which I can buy it.

replies(1): >>26599760 #
178. Manfredo_1 ◴[] No.26599745{6}[source]
Right. Lithium batteries won't cut it. That leaves geographically-dependent hydroelectricity, which isn't so easy to build. And then proposed solutions that are still in the prototyping phase, and aren't commercially available.
replies(1): >>26601200 #
179. Hypx ◴[] No.26599747{6}[source]
So now you're arguing that anything less than ~60% efficiency is unacceptable? Even for emergency backup or long-term power storage reasons?

You're at multiple layers of denial at this point. It's time to admit you were wrong.

replies(1): >>26599759 #
180. Manfredo_1 ◴[] No.26599759{7}[source]
Sure, we could burn hydrogen and drive a boiler like a coal plant. But that's not where this comment thread started.

> Those gas turbines you're referring to can simply be modified natural gas gas turbines

Sure, if you just want to run them for a short period of time and generate a lot more wear. If these turbines are so simple to modify, why does GE say that it won't be until 2045 that their turbines will be able to run 100% hydrogen gas?

replies(1): >>26599796 #
181. Hypx ◴[] No.26599760{8}[source]
Are you familiar with the term "moving the goalposts"?
replies(1): >>26599777 #
182. zizee ◴[] No.26599788{5}[source]
American houses tend to be bigger than those in other countries, and built with poor insulation than say those of europe.
183. Hypx ◴[] No.26599796{8}[source]
Then repurpose old coal plants for the same reason. None of this needs to be hard.

This whole debate started when you were caught making ignorant statements regarding basic chemistry and thermodynamics. You're not going to win by just doubling on everything or moving goalposts. It's past time to admit you were wrong.

replies(1): >>26599815 #
184. Manfredo_1 ◴[] No.26599815{9}[source]
If we aren't using combined cycle gas turbines round-trip efficiency of hydrogen storage is seriously reduced.

I'm not moving any goalpost. This is your comment when you claimed that gas turbines could be repurposed to burn hydrogen: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26599162

> Those gas turbines you're referring to can simply be modified natural gas gas turbines.

> It's past time to admit you were wrong.

Follow your own advice. You can't just feed a gas turbine hydrogen and run it as normal. Existing gas turbine manufacturers don't plant to offer 100% hydrogen gas turbines for decades.

replies(1): >>26599869 #
185. Hypx ◴[] No.26599852{10}[source]
You do realize that has more to do with the availability of hydrogen and that they only have to hit their emissions target by 2050?

If you have done any kind of digging at all you realize that they have ran gas turbines at 90% hydrogen decades ago: https://www.ge.com/news/reports/hydrogen-generation-gas-turb...

> Take the Gibraltar-San Roque oil refinery in Spain, where the GE-made 6B.03 turbine has logged thousands of hours burning a blend of fuel gas and hydrogen. This same 6B.03 machine is also working in a South Korean refinery, where it has racked up more than 20 years burning a fuel blend containing more than 70 percent hydrogen. This turbine has even gone all the way up to a 90 percent hydrogen blend.

So even your goalpost moving argument is still wrong.

This whole thing started because no one here thought someone would seriously try to argue that hydrogen gas turbines are impossible. For some of us this was too obvious to even bother trying to debunk.

replies(1): >>26599885 #
186. Hypx ◴[] No.26599869{10}[source]
It's almost endearing how far someone can shove their head up their own asshole and still keep shoving...
replies(2): >>26599918 #>>26630283 #
187. ◴[] No.26599918{11}[source]
replies(1): >>26599959 #
188. Hypx ◴[] No.26599967{12}[source]
You pretty much did say that anything above 30% concentration would destroy any gas turbine, nevermind this whole goalpost moving argument of "current gas turbine already in existence." Like I said, it's time to admit you were wrong, assuming you are capable of that at all.
replies(1): >>26600001 #
189. Manfredo_1 ◴[] No.26600001{13}[source]
> nevermind this whole goalpost moving argument of "current gas turbine already in existence."

This was the original goalpost. Let's re-read it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26599162

> Those gas turbines you're referring to can simply be modified natural gas gas turbines. The only limiting factor would be electrolysis, but that is already something people are planning to build a lot of.

This is wrong, we'd have to build new gas turbines to run on a 100% hydrogen mixture in addition to building electrolysis capacity. At this point I think it's clear you're not interested in engaging honestly, and in the other thread you'e already started to throw around ad-hominem insults [1].

1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26599959

replies(1): >>26600025 #
190. Hypx ◴[] No.26600025{14}[source]
So how else we're suppose to interpret this statement: "No, hydrogen rapidly corrodes any metals that it comes into contact with. If they are interchangeable, expect drastically smaller service intervals."

And if you read actually my statement carefully I didn't say that it had to be an existing, already built gas turbine. Only that we had to modify gas turbines intended for natural gas for hydrogen. Either new or existing, this isn't a hard challenge, especially considering that we replace old turbines all the time.

And you still seem unaware that even your goal-post moving argument is wrong. We really can just run existing gas turbines at 90% concentration for years on end.

replies(1): >>26600062 #
191. yazaddaruvala ◴[] No.26600038{6}[source]
Yeah I think we are on the same page.

It’s likely just a difference between thinking 10-30 years out, and thinking 100-300 years out.

replies(1): >>26604153 #
192. Manfredo_1 ◴[] No.26600062{15}[source]
> So how else we're suppose to interpret this statement: "No, hydrogen rapidly corrodes any metals that it comes into contact with. If they are interchangeable, expect drastically smaller service intervals."

I'm not sure why you're having trouble comprehending it. Existing gas turbines are meant to run on either oil or natural gas, not hydrogen. In addition to corrosion, hydrogen burns hotter.

You cited one specific turbine model that had a peak hydrogen mixture of 90% (average was 70%). Ignoring the fact that you're picking one specific model that's being highlighted for it's ability to accept hydrogen fuel, this still isn't viable for a carbon-neutral storage system since it still burns natural gas. No, we can't just run them at 90% for years on end because that will still advance climate change.

> Either new or existing, this isn't a hard challenge, especially considering we replace old turbines all the time.

It's good that you're admitting that it's not a simple matter of modifying existing turbines, and that new turbines have to be developed. But it is an additional bottleneck, it's not just a matter of electrolysis we also have to build the generation infrastructure to turn that hydrogen back into electricity.

Likewise if you interpreted my original comment as saying that it's impossible to run a gas turbine with hydrogen that is indeed incorrect. Though I'm rather unsure of how you reached this interpretation given that I even provided an example of a soviet experiment with hydrogen jet engines (albeit with significantly shorter flight time).

replies(1): >>26600096 #
193. fpgaminer ◴[] No.26600131{3}[source]
I dunno, back of the envelope says you'd only lose 33% with today's HVDC lines from North Africa to North America. The ocean will sink the lost energy for us. And we can make up the difference with more solar/wind, which is cheap.

Superconducting would be nice to have, but doesn't seem necessary.

replies(1): >>26600743 #
194. Manfredo_1 ◴[] No.26600141{17}[source]
Why would it count in the context of climate change? It's still emitting carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. And again, this is one specific model. Many gas turbines are only capable of much smaller concentrations: https://www.siemens-energy.com/global/en/news/magazine/2019/...

You're going from "we can just run existing gas turbines with hydrogen" to "this one specific gas turbine can use mostly hydrogen fuel but still needs 30% natural gas". Again 90% was peak not average hydrogen concentration.

Companies are looking at developing natural gas turbines that run on 100% hydrogen. But they're targeting 2030 or 2040. Are you going to tell GE and Seimens to shove their head up their ass, too?

replies(1): >>26600162 #
195. Manfredo_1 ◴[] No.26600148{15}[source]
Most companies are targeting hydrogen gas turbines to be produced in 2030 or 2040: https://www.siemens-energy.com/global/en/news/magazine/2019/...

They aren't "off the shelf" technology yet.

196. Hypx ◴[] No.26600162{18}[source]
Even more moving of the goalposts... Now it's every single gas turbine out there needs to be upgradable to 100% hydrogen, and "peak" blends don't count.

Keep fucking that chicken.

Hell, your own source says:

> Similarly, the goal of 100 percent hydrogen combustion capability will be achieved step by step, test by test. “With hydrogen-fired gas turbines we can easily avoid the ‘valley of death’ where brilliant inventions die before they even scale to full potential,” says Larfeldt. “The same turbines can be used with different percentages of hydrogen in the fuel mix, with brown or green hydrogen. Existing gas turbines can be retrofitted to the latest standards. It’s an organic evolution.”

So your own source disagrees with you.

replies(1): >>26600189 #
197. Manfredo_1 ◴[] No.26600189{19}[source]
The goalpost never moved. If you want to use hydrogen storage in a carbon neutral grid you need 100% hydrogen fuel. We're not there there yet. And we won't be there for the better part of a decade, or longer.

I guess I'll keep "fucking that chicken" along with GE and Siemens and the companies that actually build gas turbines.

> So your own source disagrees with you.

Did you miss the "in 2030" part?

replies(1): >>26600203 #
198. Hypx ◴[] No.26600203{20}[source]
Imagine electric cars were held to that standard. There would be no carbon neutral products of any kind.

Yes, keep fucking that chicken.

replies(1): >>26600208 #
199. Manfredo_1 ◴[] No.26600208{21}[source]
Why? Electric cars don't use a mixture of gas and batteries. Those cars do exist and we call them "hybrids". But those are not carbon neutral and we don't pretend they are.
replies(2): >>26600215 #>>26600246 #
200. Hypx ◴[] No.26600246{22}[source]
Grids are not 100% green. So by your definition they're not green either.
replies(2): >>26600261 #>>26600274 #
201. ◴[] No.26600261{23}[source]
202. Manfredo_1 ◴[] No.26600274{23}[source]
An electric car is as green as the grid that powers it. But a hybrid will never be green even if the grid is 100% green because it still burns fossil fuels. Same with a turbine that consumes a mixture containing natural gas. If your generator uses fossil fuels it's emitting carbon dioxide.
replies(1): >>26600334 #
203. Hypx ◴[] No.26600334{24}[source]
And there's not a single grid that's green, since they all produce CO₂. Even zero emissions grids like wind and solar still produce CO₂ during manufacturing.

And remember just how far up your own asshole you are with this: You've reject 90% hydrogen gas turbines, future gas turbines of only nine years from now, or even steam power plants running on 100% hydrogen. At this point your rationale is so dishonestly unfair it allows zero wiggle to justify any kind of electric cars. So time to admit you were wrong, not red herring your way out of this.

replies(1): >>26600404 #
204. Manfredo_1 ◴[] No.26600404{25}[source]
I didn't reject future hydrogen gas turbines. In fact, I'm the one who brought them up. That's the entire point I'm making: hydrogen gas turbines are still in development. If hydrogen gas turbines already exist, why are GE, Siemens, and others talking about how they plan to develop hydrogen gas turbines by 2030 or 2040? They're not off the shelf technology, because they aren't even on the shelf yet.

Im going to bed now, and I should have realized I was being trolled much sooner.

replies(2): >>26600436 #>>26630321 #
205. Hypx ◴[] No.26600436{26}[source]
Gas turbines that can run at 90% hydrogen and have existed for decades, still doesn't count as "existing" for you. And you still are pretending that steam power plants running on hydrogen don't exist.

The fundamental problem is that you have created an argument that's so up your own asshole that it doesn't sense, and if applied to anything else nothing is green. All because you can't admit you were wrong. Everything else you're saying is just a red herring.

> Im going to bed now, and I should have realized I was being trolled much sooner.

You're projecting again.

replies(1): >>26600484 #
206. Manfredo_1 ◴[] No.26600484{27}[source]
> And you still are pretending that steam power plants running on hydrogen don't exist.

Yet again, you originally said we could use gas turbines for hydrogen storage. Not steam turbines. Of course steam turbines can easily be run off hydrogen, you don't need compressor blades, combustors, or anything special. Just a source of heat, a boiler, and a steam turbine. This is less efficient, so there's good reason to develop hydrogen gas turbines.

You're the one who first brought up steam turbines when you changed the goal posts to saying we could repurpose coal plants instead of gas turbines.

And good night.

replies(1): >>26600619 #
207. flgb ◴[] No.26600710{6}[source]
Hyper-competitive low-margin market, many very efficient vertically-integrated solar sales businesses (sales, installation, logistics), lower selling costs (very engaged consumers), most homes single story so lower installation costs, and lower permitting and connection costs.
replies(1): >>26603432 #
208. elihu ◴[] No.26600743{4}[source]
Huh, that's actually not bad. That makes the idea of connecting Asia/Africa/Europe with the Americas for 24-hour solar power seem doable. I assume it would be tremendously expensive to build, but also have substantial benefits long into the future.
replies(1): >>26601156 #
209. VBprogrammer ◴[] No.26601135{9}[source]
That is where the storage presumably comes from, you use the excess energy to pump water out of the hole. I think the whole thing would be just as geology dependant as the conventional arrangement but with the added expense of digging down 1000m.
210. mtalhaashraf ◴[] No.26601148[source]
The intermittent problem is the one that worries me the most.

As an engineer, if I think really long term, I would like to couple water storage with energy storage. I think water will itself need to be stored in a better manner. And I would store it in tunnels at different heights. And optimize that height difference for maximum potential energy.

The tunneling tech would advance faster when it serves both of these functions and things like Hyperloop.

211. mtalhaashraf ◴[] No.26601156{5}[source]
The level of dependency on others and the associated risks would likely discourage this
replies(1): >>26606264 #
212. VBprogrammer ◴[] No.26601200{7}[source]
I've really enjoyed reading your contribution to this discussion. To the extent I kind of wished there was a private message function.

Partially this is because we have similar views on a lot of the challenges facing a move to renewables. I think sometimes this comes across as being sceptical of the progress of renewables.

In my case, and I suspect in yours, that's not really the case. In fact I'm excited and interested in how we will solve these problems in a variety of different ways.

I think we are in agreement that lithium isn't going to be the answer to energy storage at grid scale. If for no other reason than being in direct competition with the electrification of transportation isn't ideal.

Personally I'm hopeful that Ambri's liquid metal battery will materialize.

What developments do you have your eye on?

213. marvin ◴[] No.26601245{8}[source]
The physics is pretty simple: At 100% conversion rate, 1 joule is one newton of force pulling one meter, and 1 watt is 1 joule per second.

So 1 kilowatt-hour is 3.6 million joules. One liter (kilogram) of water weighs approximately 10 newtons.

So take one cubic meter (1000 kilograms) of water and move it up one meter, and you have stored 0.0028 kWh. You can see this is where the math becomes tricky without using geology for help.

Let's say you can create a height differential of 50 meters by building in a smart way - each cubic meter of storage you build will now store you 0.139 kWh. And a cubic meter is quite a lot. A full Olympic-size swimming pool stores only 2500 cubic meters, equivalent to only 347 kWh.

That's only the battery capacity of three and a half Teslas, equivalent to the daily consumption of ~12 US homes. You need a lot of these 50-meter elevated Olympic-size swimming pools, and the water and generators to run them. I suppose it's sort of feasible engineering wise, but I doubt it'll be cheap enough. Comparing with the Teslas - can you get this done for the less of the order of $300,000, minus the cost of three luxury cars worth of components?

With batteries, we're getting there fast, and in a way that's economically sound.

214. pydry ◴[] No.26601431{5}[source]
>Demand shaping" is a nice euphemism for energy shortages.

It's a euphemism for storage heaters, storage air-conditioning, aluminium smelters that dial usage up and down and smart car chargers.

Lithium ion batteries are useful too, of course, but they cost more.

This is a problem where market based solutions shine. The only reason that fact isn't getting rammed down our throats by lobbyists is that the people who got religion about markets tended to be oil/gas people, who have since been thrashing the "renewables are unreliable" drum.

>Overproduction helps but doesn't eliminate intermittency.

Why should the goal be to eliminate it when we can adapt to it and thrive?

Personally, I'm more excited for applications of periodic free/-ve priced electricity than I am worried about shortages.

215. ◴[] No.26601699{29}[source]
216. ◴[] No.26601752{29}[source]
217. pydry ◴[] No.26601771{7}[source]
>in practice, people rarely take advantage of them

Overproduction is still not that common. These days wind and solar mostly just provide power that would have otherwise been produced by natural gas even when operating at peak capacity.

It is getting off the ground though. The UK has an energy tarriff popular with electric car owners for this reason. They can occasionally get paid to charge their cars. This type of thing will only become more common.

>And some things really can't be shaped.

Obviously not. Nonetheless pretending that all renewable intermittency has to be made up for with expensive lithium ion batteries is backwards thinking.

218. ◴[] No.26601777{29}[source]
219. eloff ◴[] No.26602275{5}[source]
That was a lot to read to figure out that you did mean you think energy consumption will increase 100x in 30 years.

That's crazy. You do realize electricity consumption has actually declined in the US in 7/10 years over the last decade, despite a growing population and economy [1]. Worldwide as standard of living catches up with the US, electricity consumption will increase - but it would take a massive unforeseen demand to make your prediction come true. I don't see it happening.

[1] https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/electricity/use-of-elect...

replies(1): >>26603303 #
220. kragen ◴[] No.26603303{6}[source]
"That's crazy" isn't a rebuttal; it's just a statement of surprise. But I already know that what I said was surprising. As I said, in 01800 it was "crazy" to contemplate people safely traveling at 30 miles per hour (13 m/s in non-medieval units) or crossing the Atlantic under steam, and in 01830 it was being done, if not yet commonplace. In 01954 it was "crazy" to use a computer for "clerical work" like compilation; in 01984 children played with computers in schools, running BASIC interpreters and paint programs. How could we go about figuring out what's really going to happen in 30 years? It certainly isn't by simply believing the least surprising ideas. Instead, I suggest we explore the underlying dynamics of the system.

You didn't answer my question. Are there other limiting factors I don't know about? That wasn't a rhetorical question. I'm very interested to know what other possible limits we might encounter between here and Kardashev Type 1.

— ⁂ —

You seem to have shifted from discussing energy consumption to discussing electricity consumption; perhaps you aren't aware that there's a difference. Marketed energy consumption in the US has actually increased over the last 10 years by about 15%, from about 90 EJ/year (2.9 TW) to about 105 EJ/year (3.3 TW)—again, excluding agricultural products. Only about a third of current energy consumption in the US is electrical.

The page you linked says US electrical energy consumption is only 450 GW or so, which would be under 15% of the total, but that's after the efficiency losses from electrical generation and distribution. It also points out that US electrical energy consumption has increased in 59 of the last 69 years, with a total increase of 13× during that time. Total US energy use, however, has only increased by 3× during that time; it doubled roughly from 01950 to 01970 (from about 1 TW to about 2 TW), and has increased by about 50% since then, four times slower. What might account for this slowdown?

Well, energy prices have been relatively high and volatile since 01970. Looking at the last ten years from 02011 to 02014, WTI was in the US$70–100/bbl range, although since then it's dropped below US$50 and very briefly to US$20 at the beginning of the covid pandemic. By contrast, in the 01945–01970 period before the energy crisis, it was fairly stable in the US$20–30 range (adjusted for inflation), and since then it's mostly been US$40–100. So it's unsurprising, in retrospect, that in the last 50 years there's been strong pressure to conserve energy: energy cost about four times as much, so energy use grew about four times slower.

There are places, such as Germany, that have been shifting their economic production to lower-energy-intensity sectors of the economy and higher-efficiency ways of using energy, with the consequence that their energy use has actually declined. This is partly driven by energy prices, but more by strong conservation efforts led by the Green Party, which have been critical to the current dramatic reduction in the cost of photovoltaic energy.

And precisely what we're discussing here is that solar photovoltaic energy is now dramatically cheaper than fossil-fuel sources of energy, even in some non-tropical countries like the US. And the total solar resource is, as I said, about a thousand times larger than total world marketed energy consumption. So we should expect dramatic growth in energy consumption in the next decades. Maybe not in Germany, though.

— ⁂ —

As for your plaint about the length, that was under 1000 words! It takes literally under three minutes to read. If you think that's a lot to read, I'd hate to see how you react to a so-called book. I know this is probably hard to imagine, but I regularly spend not just three consecutive minutes reading a text written in one of these "books", but literally multiple hours. Sometimes they don't even have pie charts in bright primary colors! Terrifying, I know. But it's important, because when I read things and carefully consider them, making calculations, I find out when I'm wrong, which is very often. (So-called "research papers" are even more important, because they're more up to date, but they take longer to read even though they're shorter.) Then I change my opinion to be less wrong. I recommend trying it!

However, it does have the disadvantage that it forces me to abandon popular beliefs that can't possibly be correct in favor of "crazy" ones that are backed up by evidence and reasoning. Sometimes, to my surprise, the popular beliefs turn out to have been correct after all. More often reality turns out to have been just as crazy as I thought.

— ⁂ —

So, I don't know what will happen over the next 30 years, but I think a 100× increase in world marketed energy consumption due to PV is eminently plausible. Maybe it'll only be 3×, maybe 1000×. Maybe there will be another world war, worse than the last two, and world marketed energy consumption will drop 10×. But it is not plausible that things will continue as they have for the last 50 years.

replies(1): >>26610081 #
221. kragen ◴[] No.26603432{7}[source]
Thank you very much! Do you have any idea how the costs of a typical Australian rooftop system break down? I'm curious about the relative importance of these factors.
222. flavius29663 ◴[] No.26604153{7}[source]
I don't see how more years make it more likely to have more interconnection. The power requirements will balloon, it might be still cheaper to have some local generators instead of investing in long range transmission
223. ed25519FUUU ◴[] No.26604869{3}[source]
Right now the grids in Texas go negative from an over abundance of wind power, and California regularly pays to get rid of peak power during the duck curve. It’s cheap, and also not very valuable.

The stable, high-duty cycle of a power plant is very valuable per kWh, and what renewables must compete against. Maybe someday we’ll get cheap versions of that through new battery inventions, but that day is definitely not today or the near future. There’s only one carbon free way to get it at scale.

224. philipkglass ◴[] No.26605094{15}[source]
Electrolytic hydrogen plants of up to 250 MW were constructed in the 20th century by the use of smaller electrolysis units in parallel. All of them were for producing ammonia from hydrogen. See table 3-2 on page 99 of this NASA report from 1975:

"Survey of Hydrogen Production and Utilization Methods"

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/19760008503/downloads/19...

250 MW, Rjakon, Norway, built 1965

170 MW, Kima, Egypt, built 1960

125 MW, Nangal, India, built 1958

90 MW, Trail, Canada, built 1939

25 MW, Curco, Peru, built 1958

replies(1): >>26606325 #
225. philipkglass ◴[] No.26605182{9}[source]
Hydrogen is stored underground in Texas salt formations at Clemens Dome, Moss Bluff, and Spindletop. The largest of them, Spindletop, was completed in 2017:

https://www.airliquide.com/sites/airliquide.com/files/2017/0...

This presentation says that the Spindletop hydrogen capacity is equivalent to ~120 GWh.

https://ukccsrc.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/John-Willia...

226. cmcnab ◴[] No.26605495{4}[source]
I had a house for a time that had just what you describe: a concrete block thermal mass set in the foundation. There were ducts running through it as part of the forced-air system. During the days, especially sunny days, the block soaked up the excess heat and then radiated it back out during the night. It worked quite well; indoor temperatures stayed remarkably consistent. A company called Adirondack Alternate Energy were the architects. https://aaepassivesolar.com/low-energy.html
227. hn_throwaway_99 ◴[] No.26605896{5}[source]
I should have been more explicit in my post. I was talking about car batteries. Tesla cars have batteries in the 60-100 kWh range, and Vehicle-To-Home (V2H) power is becoming a real thing, and I predict over the next few years it could have a large impact on the ability of the grid to use that energy storage to help even out renewable power variability.

See https://electrek.co/2020/05/19/tesla-bidirectional-charging-...

228. elihu ◴[] No.26606264{6}[source]
That's true to a degree; if someone were able to cripple half the world's economies just by disabling a cable then yes, that's a serious issue. On the other hand, if all the involved countries maintained backup power (i.e. gas or coal generation) that could be turned on in an emergency but otherwise unused, then the risks could be mitigated.

Backup generators would of course be expensive to build and maintain, but if they just sit idle 99% of the time maybe the cost would be acceptable. I assume a fossil fuel power plant that just sits idle could last a very long time.

229. mlyle ◴[] No.26606325{16}[source]
??? Those are input powers of terrifically inefficient and expensive electrolyzers. That 250MW plant put out 17MW of hydrogen -- (120 (megajoules / kilogram)) * ((0.000236 kilograms) / (cubic foot)) * (2 200 000 ((cubic feet) / hour)) = 17,306,667 Watts.
replies(1): >>26606861 #
230. philipkglass ◴[] No.26606861{17}[source]
I think that you slipped a decimal point. The mass of a cubic foot of hydrogen is about 0.00236 kg, not 0.000236 [1]. That means that the output power is an order of magnitude greater than you calculated -- 173 megawatts.

[1] https://microsites.airproducts.com/gasfacts/hydrogen.html

231. imtringued ◴[] No.26609296{3}[source]
I saw an EV van that had solar panels that generated enough power to drive 50km per day. It was fully decked out to a comical level though.
replies(1): >>26613811 #
232. imtringued ◴[] No.26609326{8}[source]
These discussions are always super boring. There are dozens of technologies that can scale to the level needed but everyone goes goes lithium ion and pumped hydro as if everything else didn't exist.

Sure cell batteries might not work, we can try out flow batteries, we can try liquid metal batteries, we can try hydraulic hydro storage, we can try out hydrogen, we can try compressed air, we can try electrolyzing iron or aluminum, we can try another dozen different things and it is highly likely that at least 3 will work out just fine.

233. imtringued ◴[] No.26609329{9}[source]
There is very little demand for grid storage. The biggest problem with energy storage is that it's a red herring until the 30s and 40s.
234. imtringued ◴[] No.26609346{4}[source]
It would be interesting in northern Africa. Install soil erosion blankets and then put solar panels on top to reduce evaporation. Trim the plant growth to increase the biomass available to the soil.
235. imtringued ◴[] No.26609351{5}[source]
You're right. Just build a "solar roof". Basically a solar panel on four legs.
236. imtringued ◴[] No.26609403[source]
German electricity is dirt cheap if your business qualifies for tax exemptions. Consumers have to pay all the renewable energy taxes and they get higher as the spot market price drops.
237. nicoburns ◴[] No.26609437{7}[source]
If we had smart metering, then we could simply restrict consumption in these (presumably rare) circumstances.
238. eloff ◴[] No.26610081{7}[source]
> I think a 100× increase in world marketed energy consumption due to PV is eminently plausible.

It's not plausible, and despite your verbosity you offered no hypothesis as to why energy needs might increase 100x in just 30 years.

It's not impossible, but there is no reason to expect that to happen - and you offer none, which I think is the minimum required to support your argument.

That demand will increase 100x simply because solar energy is cheaper is not an argument.

replies(1): >>26678661 #
239. dukeofdoom ◴[] No.26613811{4}[source]
in real life? or youtube? can you share a link
240. toomuchtodo ◴[] No.26616994{3}[source]
That Guam use case would be perfect to trial combined desal and hydrogen production and storage for production troughs instead of keeping the diesel genny. Saltwater and renewables goes in, clean water and hydrogen come out.
241. Qwertious ◴[] No.26619198{9}[source]
Yes, 100% solar makes no sense. Thankfully, we have other sources such as wind.

Also, if you can run HVDC to the Sahara you could run it to hydro plants, so I don't think that's a good hypothetical.

But mostly, talking about pure solar just makes no sense.

242. dang ◴[] No.26630264[source]
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26599307 because this seems to be the point at which this thread started to become a hellish flamewar.

I've pretty much seen it all here and even I was shocked.

243. dang ◴[] No.26630275{5}[source]
You broke the site guidelines more than once in this thread. I'm not going to ban you like the other users who were so outrageously abusive, but this is still seriously not ok and we've had to warn you about it before.

If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

244. dang ◴[] No.26630283{11}[source]
You repeatedly, outrageously violated HN's rules in this thread. I've pretty much seen it all here and even I was shocked. However wrong someone else is or you feel they are, you absolutely cannot post like this on this site.

Although both of you were at fault, your comments were so aggressive and vicious that I've banned your account. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

245. dang ◴[] No.26630321{26}[source]
You broke the site guidelines repeatedly in this hellish flamewar. I realize the other user went beyond the pale in attacking you, but you were also badly at fault. Please stay out of flamewars in the future.

I was going to ban your account as well, but on a closer look it seems that the other commenter was being far more vicious, so I'm not going to do that right now. But perpetuating a flamewar like this is still absolutely against the rules—especially the interminably tedious tit-for-tat sort, which this one was. No more of this, please.

If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules when posting here, we'd be grateful.

replies(1): >>26686925 #
246. kragen ◴[] No.26678661{8}[source]
> you offered no hypothesis as to why energy needs might increase 100x in just 30 years

Right, because I was un-asking the question. There's no such thing as "energy needs", just energy conversion and dissipation, so your question is nonsensical. Up a couple of levels I linked to Marco Schulte, who's using an Arduino Nano, with maybe half a million transistors in it, to detect when his espresso machine turns on and count up the seconds of espresso brewing on Nixie tubes.

Have "transistor needs" thereby increased by half a million transistors? No, clearly this could have been done with 50 transistors or less. Or not done at all; plenty of espresso machines get by without timers protruding from the top, and plenty of people get by without coffee. There was no need, just consumption. But at this point we have something like 15 or 20 sextillion transistors in the world, so speaking of "transistor needs" is nonsense. Transistors are not rationed like covid vaccines in a backward country, where you only get to use as many as you can prove you need. They're still not free, though—though you can use half a million transistors as easily and cheaply as you can use one, a chip with sixteen billion transistors costs a little more than a chip with half a million, and a machine with a hundred billion transistors (16 GiB of RAM or Flash, for example) costs more than that and also takes up space and uses a significant amount of power. And once you're up into the trillions of transistors the cost goes up linearly with transistor count.

So, in short, Marco Schulte is using half a million transistors to detect his espresso machine turning on because transistors are cheap enough that he doesn't get any advantage he cares about by using less.

This phenomenon is not limited to transistors. Demand for just about anything will increase if it gets cheap enough. Forgive me if I point out that this assumption, that demand curves are generally downward-sloping, is fundamental to economic theory; it's not something I need to offer an argument for in a particular case, because the exceptions are few and far between.

— ⁂ —

Of course, that doesn't tell us how much the demand will increase. The 100× ballpark comes from taking, not the 39% yearly exponential growth in installed photovoltaic capacity over the period 01993 to 02018 https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:PV_cume_semi_log_cha..., but the much slower 23% yearly exponential growth we've seen over the last few years; extrapolating it 30 years into the future; and then dividing by 5 to make the estimate "conservative." Of course it's only really conservative if we don't hit some limiting factor before that point, as we did, for example, with oil in the 01970s. That exponential growth will surely level off at some point, at which point such empirical extrapolations become nonsense.

So what's the limiting factor? I don't know.

— ⁂ —

What will people be using abundant solar photovoltaic energy for in 30 years? Probably mostly things that are too absurd for us to imagine now, like Marco Schulte's espresso machine, whose coffee timer has roughly the computational power of the 24 AN/FSQ-7 computers that made up NORAD's missile defense system in 01965. I can come up with lots of uses for lots of energy that aren't so absurd, though they aren't likely to be the real answer:

- Mining Bitcoin. There's no limit to how much energy you can spend on that, because it's purely competitive, like soccer. It takes all the hashing you can do just to stay in the same place with respect to the other miners.

- Making more solar cells. The raw materials (except silver) are abundant, and the processing is highly automated, but it takes a lot of energy. So having a lot of solar cells sitting around producing cheap electricity makes it cheaper to make more solar cells, which in turn makes the electricity they produce even cheaper.

- Smelting aluminum. Currently 20%–40% of the cost of smelting aluminum is just the cost of the energy, but it's only that low because aluminum smelting pots are designed to be efficient and not waste too much energy. You can always trade off some efficiency for other desirable attributes of the design, like cheapness. Probably this would reduce the cost of aluminum per unit of strength below the cost of steel.

- Smelting ferrosilicon, which is used as a feedstock for, for example, magnesium. More generally all kinds of mining and smelting processes use a lot of energy, and have even energy-hungrier alternative processes that we don't use because they're more expensive than the ones we do use.

- Desalination for irrigation. The Sorek reverse-osmosis plant produces drinking water at a total cost of US$0.58/kℓ at 70 atmospheres, which is 7.1 kJ/ℓ; energy is something like a third of the cost, and as with aluminum, you can presumably make other aspects of the plant cheaper if you can afford to waste more energy. Suppose this less efficient design uses 20 kJ/ℓ. Growing rice needs about 5 feet of water (acre-feet per acre) per crop, because a rice field is basically a swamp; with 2 feet of water per year, you can get pastureland or vineyards instead of a swamp. 5 feet of water (1.5 m) per year at 20 kJ/ℓ is just under 1 W/m². So turning the Sahara (9.2 million km²) into rice fields would cost 9.2 terawatts, which is about half of total world marketed energy consumption as of 02021. At current prices, the requisite solar panels (which would themselves occupy about ½% of the Sahara) would cost US$1.4 trillion.

- Direct air capture of CO₂ to reverse global warming, which requires minimally about a gigajoule (250 kWh) per tonne on entropic grounds, and maybe 10 GJ/tonne if we can't figure out how to approach the theoretical efficiency. We need to remove about 1.29 × 10¹⁶ kg to get back to pre-industrial levels (see Derctuo for the calculation) and if we do that over 25 years at this 10%-efficient 10 GJ/tonne level, it will take 160 TW, about 9 times current world marketed energy consumption.

— ⁂ —

Now, right now, most of these projects would be uneconomic, because energy is so expensive, so it's tempting to reject them out of hand as implausible. No doubt von Neumann would have done the same if you'd told him a prophecy of Hypercard, which shipped 30 years after his death in 01957. How much more so your ignorant USan man on the street, whose knowledge of computers in 01957 was limited to DO NOT FOLD, SPINDLE, OR MUTILATE, a UNIVAC trying to take over the world in The Invisible Boy, and breathless newspaper articles about "giant electronic brains"?

On the flip side, what would someone in the 01957 USA have thought if you told them that in 01987 all the US manufacturers of small planes would be bankrupt, leaded gasoline outlawed, and the interstate speed limits reduced to 55 mph?

The future is not only stranger than we imagine; it is stranger than we can imagine.

— ⁂ —

So, I ask you, a third time: Can you think of any other limiting factors I don't know about? What other possible limits do you think we might encounter between here and Kardashev Type 1?

247. kragen ◴[] No.26678669{8}[source]
*panels
248. manfredo ◴[] No.26686925{27}[source]
To be honest I think you should go ahead and delete that account (and this, my main). Upon further reflection I think my engagement with HN has become unhealthy.