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1183 points robenkleene | 99 comments | | HN request time: 2.169s | source | bottom
1. jjoonathan ◴[] No.24838965[source]
"You don't need kernel extensions, we'll provide APIs for you! We won't abuse the power that gives us, promise!"

...and now Apple has altered the deal and we must pray they do not alter it further. Disgusting. Predictable, expected, unsurprising -- but still disgusting.

replies(6): >>24839165 #>>24839174 #>>24839249 #>>24839470 #>>24839566 #>>24840061 #
2. Skunkleton ◴[] No.24839165[source]
You understand that Apple could bypass kexts too? This is an issue of trust, not a technical issue.
replies(2): >>24839232 #>>24839336 #
3. nix23 ◴[] No.24839174[source]
Dont pray, just dont buy Apple Products
replies(5): >>24839211 #>>24839285 #>>24839301 #>>24839473 #>>24840677 #
4. Skunkleton ◴[] No.24839211[source]
It's a frustrating road we are headed down. Tech companies have gotten so big that they don't really have to work together using standardization anymore. Options are limited, and most are anti-consumer in one way or another.
replies(1): >>24839540 #
5. CountSessine ◴[] No.24839232[source]
Try to bypass kexts and you’re just asking for kernel stability issues and Mac customer crashes. Pushing these guys out of the kernel lets Apple cheat them and Mac users clean and easy.
replies(1): >>24839452 #
6. gogopuppygogo ◴[] No.24839285[source]
The alternative is what? System76 makes a decent laptop but they don’t have a repair center in every major city. I buy Apple computers because of the hardware support and integration with iPhone.

Speaking of iPhone, the open options are at best abysmal for privacy (at least orders of magnitudes worse than Apple) and at worst part of planned obsolescence that creates e-waste much faster than Apple devices.

Fun fact, at least for now, you can still buy a Mac and boot Linux. Probably not true once Apple silicon hits but that’s a sad day for anyone who liked boot camp.

replies(3): >>24839331 #>>24839347 #>>24839496 #
7. munificent ◴[] No.24839301[source]
Boycotting is not an effective strategy for addressing oligopolies. You need actual strong anti-trust regulation.
replies(6): >>24839399 #>>24839501 #>>24839914 #>>24840126 #>>24840146 #>>24840218 #
8. solatic ◴[] No.24839331{3}[source]
You respond as if the majority of buyers do not already have alternatives for Apple laptops and Apple phones.
9. Wowfunhappy ◴[] No.24839336[source]
It's worth noting the Apple does release the source code to XNU (albeit on a ~6 month delay), and unlike some of their other source releases, there's actually enough tooling for you to build your own kernel. So while there are still gaps, it is overall more open to review.
10. fortran77 ◴[] No.24839347{3}[source]
The alternative is Windows 10 on a wide variety of hardware, or Linux.
replies(1): >>24839461 #
11. y7 ◴[] No.24839399{3}[source]
Hear hear. All "just use an alternative" does is temporarily shift the problem. And then tomorrow an article appears highlighting Windows 10's invasive telemetry and people say "yeah just use macOS".
replies(2): >>24839660 #>>24839924 #
12. gruez ◴[] No.24839452{3}[source]
>Try to bypass kexts and you’re just asking for kernel stability issues and Mac customer crashes

why would that be the case? All you'd need to do is provide some sort of private network api, and only allow apple signed code to use it.

replies(1): >>24839467 #
13. throwaway2048 ◴[] No.24839461{4}[source]
Windows 10 has even more invasive spyware nonsense.
replies(1): >>24839526 #
14. throwaway2048 ◴[] No.24839467{4}[source]
that is not how kexts work(ed), they can do completely arbitrary things to the kernel, including removing any theoretical code signing requirement.
replies(1): >>24839599 #
15. josteink ◴[] No.24839470[source]
> and now Apple has altered the deal and we must pray they do not alter it further

And the slippery slope of MacOS lockdown slips just a little further.

16. ineedasername ◴[] No.24839473[source]
What's the alternative for the typical user? Windows has its own problems, and let's face it: market forces on this sort of thing or any other practices by the two of them have not driven people to use desktop Linux instead. For most people, there's simply no reasonable option to switch to that would avoid these things or employ market forces to get these companies to change their ways.
replies(4): >>24839516 #>>24839941 #>>24840143 #>>24840171 #
17. nix23 ◴[] No.24839496{3}[source]
>Fun fact, at least for now, you can still buy a Mac and boot Linux.

Are you praing too that Apple will still allow that in the future?

>I buy Apple computers because of the hardware support and integration with iPhone

Have fun then, i dont buy Think different but same.

18. curiousgal ◴[] No.24839501{3}[source]
Regulation will never be ahead of corporations. Regulators always play catch-up. Seeing how, at the end of the day, all these company care about is profits, hitting them where it hurts will make a difference.

That being said, Linux is available, and it's perfectly usable by people who would be bothered by Apple's dev policies.

replies(1): >>24839651 #
19. nix23 ◴[] No.24839516{3}[source]
I'm not a "typical" user so i dont care.
replies(2): >>24839586 #>>24841847 #
20. nix23 ◴[] No.24839526{5}[source]
Not the Enterprise/Education edition.
replies(1): >>24839589 #
21. nix23 ◴[] No.24839540{3}[source]
>Options are limited

No not really, but limited is the mindset of peoples.

replies(1): >>24839616 #
22. gabereiser ◴[] No.24839566[source]
Tim Cook's Apple Inc is really a nightmare. Sure we have sleek shiny laptops and devices that are amazingly powerful but at what cost? I still haven't found a trackpad as good as MagicTrackpad sadly otherwise I'd ditch the MacBook Pro.

To be fair to Apple though, it's their OS, they can do what they want and we agree every time we update MacOS or iOS. It's crazy to me that we basically only have 3 phone device choices, 2.15 environment choices (OS wise... Linux Desktop is crap, but getting better), and only 2 choices in GPU's, CPU's, etc...

What can we do about this?

replies(7): >>24839667 #>>24839673 #>>24839683 #>>24839794 #>>24840099 #>>24840106 #>>24840124 #
23. pmarreck ◴[] No.24839586{4}[source]
So basically you provided a suggestion that only works for you.
replies(1): >>24842097 #
24. throwaway2048 ◴[] No.24839589{6}[source]
That you can't legally acquire outside of a commercial support contract.
replies(1): >>24839891 #
25. gruez ◴[] No.24839599{5}[source]
any access? On Windows, you can write a driver that would run in kernel mode, but critical sections can't be modified[1]. I'd imagine there's something similar for mac.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel_Patch_Protection

replies(2): >>24839831 #>>24839933 #
26. gabereiser ◴[] No.24839616{4}[source]
>No not really, but limited is the mindset of peoples.

I'd argue options really are limited. Your counter argument assumes one can just roll their own OS with the same features and functionality as current-gen OS's. That's quite a leap. Options today are Windows, Mac, or some flavor of Linux if you can get it to work. Linux aside, Windows and Mac both are making it so you no longer own the OS but are "subscribed" to it. Making it easy for them to implement anti-consumer strategies to lock you in.

replies(1): >>24840166 #
27. seg_lol ◴[] No.24839651{4}[source]
These companies would be happy to lose the customer and the vars that complain. Unless you can convince 100x more people than yourself to loudly and dramatically move to something not as user hostile, just voting with your dollars will not work, there isn't enough competition.
replies(2): >>24839718 #>>24839767 #
28. anamexis ◴[] No.24839660{4}[source]
I think in both cases, people generally say "use Linux".
replies(1): >>24841679 #
29. ProAm ◴[] No.24839667[source]
Would you use a good trackpad that connects via USB or bluetooth? Its a real question because I see a lot of comments about people not leaving the Macbook because of the trackpad even though they dislike the rest of the laptop? Seems like something that could be a product?
replies(5): >>24839725 #>>24839726 #>>24839751 #>>24839771 #>>24840154 #
30. jonny_eh ◴[] No.24839673[source]
Look on the bright side, having at least 2 choices is waaaay better than only 1.
31. vinay427 ◴[] No.24839683[source]
What is distinct about the direction of Tim Cook's Apple Inc compared to any previous Apple Inc?
replies(3): >>24839760 #>>24839796 #>>24840217 #
32. nix23 ◴[] No.24839718{5}[source]
It's not about voting, it's about the tech YOU use. You want apple? Buy it, if not dont. I really dont care what others use.
33. kccqzy ◴[] No.24839725{3}[source]
No you wouldn't. It's not about the trackpad hardware (Apple sells a separate Bluetooth trackpad after all), but it's about the software.
replies(1): >>24839866 #
34. ucosty ◴[] No.24839726{3}[source]
You can already buy an external Magic Trackpad from Apple (https://www.apple.com/uk/shop/product/MJ2R2Z/A/magic-trackpa...). Not terribly useful for a laptop unless you want to set up at a desk.
35. tapland ◴[] No.24839751{3}[source]
That’s called a mouse.

The trackpad is important because it’s the default interface when moving the portable computer. External devices kill that.

36. bayindirh ◴[] No.24839760{3}[source]
Jobs' Apple created technologies which have rooted deeply in POSIX standards and standard UNIX* conventions. If you knew UNIX(Linux/BSD/whatever), you can find the same data streams on the same places.

OS was obscure but, predictable. Different but, familiar. It had kernel extensions, logs and devices. Nothing was extremely obfuscated. It was a UNIX device but, shinier.

Now it feels like a glorified iOS box with more transparent walls. You can see some gears but can't touch them. There are only limited interfaces to some of those, which you can touch remotely but, not alter completely.

I wonder what will happen to my EXT drivers from Paragon though.

replies(2): >>24839889 #>>24839918 #
37. giantg2 ◴[] No.24839767{5}[source]
"Unless you can convince 100x more people..."

I don't even know 10 people who use Mac.

38. jeromenerf ◴[] No.24839771{3}[source]
Nah, it’s just people whining and finding excuses.
39. vlunkr ◴[] No.24839794[source]
I used to be really tied to the Apple trackpad. After switching to Linux and a keyboard-driven window manager I couldn't care less. I'm not going to say Linux Desktop is perfect, but at this point I'd pick it over everything else.
40. arcticbull ◴[] No.24839796{3}[source]
Without taking a position on OPs value judgement, the difference between Steve's Apple and Tim Apple's is that services have come to the fore.

Apple has historically always considered itself a hardware company, and now it is a hardware and services company. Small but concrete examples are the Settings page's "Activate your free trial of AppleTV+ today!" and their constant pitching of Apple Card. This is the thin edge, more than likely, of them moving to a model not of monetizing your hardware but rather capturing your data and selling you on a subscription bundle of services.

This transition is in a way necessitated by their declining revenue growth, so they're looking at new ways of monetizing their existing users.

41. SCHiM ◴[] No.24839831{6}[source]
KPP is not considered a security boundary. That means, in Windows security jargon, that it's a feature that helps security. But not something that you or anyone else should consider a fail proof solution, or even something that would result in a patch if breached.
replies(1): >>24840129 #
42. ProAm ◴[] No.24839866{4}[source]
What about the software makes it good? Ive never used a macbook so have zero experience with it.
replies(3): >>24840010 #>>24840113 #>>24840197 #
43. Arubis ◴[] No.24839889{4}[source]
I intend this with kindness: normally I don’t nitpick on grammar and punctuation, but you’ve got a repeated error here that’s easily corrected. Generally, you want to break your sentences with commas _before_ usage of “but”: “He wanted to buy a pen, but the store had run out.”

If you’re a native speaker, the comma goes where you’d naturally have a brief pause in speech.

If you’re not a native speaker, it may be helpful to remember that the clause with “but” should be able to be removed & what remains should still be a valid sentence: “He wanted to buy a pen.”, not “He wanted to buy a pen but.”

replies(4): >>24839979 #>>24840038 #>>24840343 #>>24845268 #
44. wayneftw ◴[] No.24839891{7}[source]
you can buy it right here for 299

https://www.trustedtechteam.com/products/windows-10-enterpri...

45. rch ◴[] No.24839914{3}[source]
Engineers and scientists choosing MBPs as a means of getting a POSIX system on nice hardware did more for getting Macs in the workplace than any of the anti-trust actions did.
46. Wowfunhappy ◴[] No.24839918{4}[source]
It's perhaps worth noting that iOS and all of its restrictions were created under Steve Jobs. And Jobs absolutely expected iOS devices to eventually replace full computers for most people; as he put it, everyone needs a car but only a few need a truck.

Where I absolutely agree with you is that under Jobs, there were no attempts to make macOS behave more like a car. Lion did borrow a handful of visual elements from iOS, but it was mostly aesthetic. Jobs was also on medical leave for much of Lion's development cycle, so I wonder if he was less involved.

replies(1): >>24840172 #
47. fsflover ◴[] No.24839924{4}[source]
See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24831699
48. comex ◴[] No.24839933{6}[source]
There hasn’t been anything like that on macOS. macOS on Apple Silicon will have a form of kernel patch protection, like on iOS, but it’s designed to guard against exploits from userland, not approved kexts. It’s definitely possible for third party kexts to bypass that somehow, but possibly only by disabling Secure Boot; I haven’t looked into it.
49. _-david-_ ◴[] No.24839941{3}[source]
Depends on what the typical user does. I would guess a lot of people would be fine with a Chrome Book.
replies(1): >>24841827 #
50. Wowfunhappy ◴[] No.24839979{5}[source]
I read this as a poetic choice by GP—it evoked Apple's "Think different" tagline in my mind, although now I'm not actually sure why. I could be wrong though!
replies(1): >>24840205 #
51. daniel-thompson ◴[] No.24840010{5}[source]
For me, two things combine to make it feel super responsive: 1. The latency between you moving your finger(s) and seeing movement on the screen feels imperceptible. 2. There isn't any "lost" movement - if you scribble your finger around really quickly and come back to where you start, the cursor or window scroll position will be back to where it started too.
52. ◴[] No.24840038{5}[source]
53. hilbert42 ◴[] No.24840061[source]
Don't bother to look to Microsoft Windows for a solution!

For don't forget MS Windows has a 'dial-home-to-Microsoft' link that's hard coded within Windows itself. It bypasses the hosts file altogether, and if I recall correctly, it's been in Windows since XP.

The only solution stop the 'talk-home' connection would be to find the destination IPs numbers and then key them into your external router for blocking.

replies(1): >>24840269 #
54. x87678r ◴[] No.24840099[source]
New XPS 15 has great trackpad and is a good alternative. Its not any cheaper than MBP though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCM8FZlFTas
replies(2): >>24840167 #>>24840169 #
55. michaelmrose ◴[] No.24840106[source]
The talos raptor has a power9 cpu. The Ampere is powered by arm. There is an upcoming risc-v based pc by SiFive

That is at least 3 niche entries in addition to the 2 mainstream choices.

Intel wants really badly to be a 3rd player in the GPU space and its integrated graphics are already good enough if you aren't gaming although I have doubts about their upcoming dedicated GPU.

The Linux desktop space is nicer in the keyboard centric simple environments space or at least ditch gnome and switch to KDE running on an distro that actually stays up to date.

The challenge is not mostly using such an environment its setting it up in the first place.

Looks like every category has 3-5 options.

56. fsflover ◴[] No.24840113{5}[source]
See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24700537
57. m463 ◴[] No.24840124[source]
don't upgrade and/or don't continue with apple.

Alternatively firewall your machine, but apple keeps allowing itself workarounds, like find my where "offline" machines aren't so offline.

And then 5G has all kinds of inter-machine connectivity.

58. fsflover ◴[] No.24840126{3}[source]
You need everything at the same time. You also should promote Linux among your friends.
59. gruez ◴[] No.24840129{7}[source]
If patching the kernel to intercept network requests is sufficiently hard enough that you're forced to use their "approved" way of intercepting network requests, then it's very easy for them to sneak requests through. Even if patching the kernel wasn't an issue, it still turns into a game of whack a mole because apple can sneak as many changes as they want with each macos release. It heavily favors apple, not the developers of such firewalls.
replies(1): >>24840780 #
60. fsflover ◴[] No.24840143{3}[source]
I installed GNU/Linux for my relatives and it's been working fine for years. So I would say GNU/Linux is a perfect alternative for typical users.
replies(1): >>24841776 #
61. ballenf ◴[] No.24840146{3}[source]
I get the antitrust case on iOS, but has the argument been widened to include regulating what Apple does with its PCs?

Or are we saying that we want the federal government to regulate OSs generally?

62. hrktb ◴[] No.24840154{3}[source]
The trackpad is just the saillant point.

As we(I) go deeper the "let's try linux" route, thousands more papercuts come to the surface. It's fine for specific use cases (e.g. just focusing on backend dev), it becomes worse for wider use cases.

63. fsflover ◴[] No.24840166{5}[source]
> or some flavor of Linux if you can get it to work

Do not try to get anything work. Just buy preinstalled.

replies(1): >>24841663 #
64. kibwen ◴[] No.24840167{3}[source]
Can confirm that my 2016-era XPS 15 model has the best trackpad I've used on a PC. I did have an issue where after a few years it became almost impossible to physically click (still important for click-and-drag operations), though after investigation it turned out that the dying battery was swelling up from below and interfering with the trackpad. So, full marks on the trackpad, but I hope they've ironed out their battery story.
65. horsawlarway ◴[] No.24840169{3}[source]
Second this - XPS machines on Wayland are basically spot on for trackpads.

Honestly - just Wayland in general has dramatically improved my linux desktop experience. 10/10, will never go back to X.

replies(1): >>24840619 #
66. brlewis ◴[] No.24840171{3}[source]
Are you saying that because large numbers of typical users have not yet switched to desktop Linux, we can conclude that desktop Linux is not a reasonable option they can switch to?
replies(1): >>24841534 #
67. nicoburns ◴[] No.24840172{5}[source]
Indeed. I think for all his faults, Jobs was still himself a "power user". He understood why people wanted to be able to tweak things like this because he wanted to be able to this himself (even if most of the time he used an ipad).
replies(1): >>24840802 #
68. passwordreset ◴[] No.24840197{5}[source]
Spaces, the virtual desktop manager, makes it good. A few years ago, multiple desktops were accessible with a 3-finger swipe left or right. Now, when you make an app full-screen, it creates a new space to contain the app, so multiple full-screen apps are easily accessible.

Linux has a virtual desktop manager, and Windows has some 3rd-party apps that provide multiple desktops. None of those apps seem as tightly integrated and useful as this Mac OS feature.

69. joshiee ◴[] No.24840205{6}[source]
to me it's plainly wrong for a comma. but I also don't like to color outside the box. perhaps an ellipses would've been ok.
replies(1): >>24840608 #
70. ◴[] No.24840217{3}[source]
71. zepto ◴[] No.24840218{3}[source]
Except that it’s not an oligopoly - it can’t be by definition.

There is a free alternative which is better in many ways and has an unlimited supply.

The only reason Apple has a lead in software is that they have made their closed source model deliver end-user benefits at a faster rate than the open source alternatives.

There is no reason this needs to remain true, and there are a lot of signs that it will not continue.

replies(1): >>24842605 #
72. WarOnPrivacy ◴[] No.24840269[source]
Windows doesn't bypass 3rd party firewalls.
replies(1): >>24843835 #
73. wruza ◴[] No.24840343{5}[source]
If you’re a native speaker, the comma goes where you’d naturally have a brief pause in speech.

Some speech styles use pause after "but". You can hear it from news reporters and on tv shows in general, when actors read partial sentences from paper or screen. It is not exclusive to english, and it is a common mistake to use punctuation with respect to own/technical intonations and delays instead of correct ones.

"X but, Y" likely means "X, but... Y" here, i.e. the first pause is much less pronounced than the second.

74. bigwavedave ◴[] No.24840608{7}[source]
Don't worry, your instincts are correct. The only time a comma should follow a conjunction is if there is an interrupting phrase that breaks up the sentence. Example: "He's a nice guy but, to be honest, he smells like a hippopotamus."
replies(1): >>24840827 #
75. darthrupert ◴[] No.24840619{4}[source]
Did Wayland start being good recently? Its glacial progress is one of the reasons I switched to macs a few years ago.
replies(1): >>24850504 #
76. darthrupert ◴[] No.24840677[source]
Yeah, I don't think so. I fought with technology since my late teens, and I'm just too old for that shit now. I have maybe an hour to spend on freetime every day and I want to spend exactly 0 seconds of it battling with my devices.

Apple gives me that. Ubuntu gives me that these days in some limited sense too, but not when you factor in AppleTV , phone, pad, homepod and airpod and the watch.

replies(1): >>24845730 #
77. CountSessine ◴[] No.24840780{8}[source]
Even if patching the kernel wasn't an issue, it still turns into a game of whack a mole

Exactly - but the game itself is the problem. Firewall vendors will go hunting through kernel code for jump targets and structs to plug into hidden interfaces, and Apple will remove and change them, causing crashes and instability. Apple has some leverage if they have a program like WHQL, but even then driver writers will commit shenanigans. Push them out of the kernel altogether and now only Apple can engage in shenanigans and break user trust. Which they already have.

78. gabereiser ◴[] No.24840802{6}[source]
It’s been documented how irate he would get over small details. Those small details are really only seen by someone who is a power user and has a vision for what it _should_ be. Not to make excuses for his behavior but he understood technology and wanted to make it simple for everyone. That drive towards simplicity makes you have to make a choice as to what features are left to the user and what features are managed by the system. Increasingly under Cook it’s been the later.

The argument that most of this started under Jobs is valid. True. But like it was commented he was dealing with an illness and it’s unknown just how much involvement he had. This is obviously just my view of the land and my perspective is my own. YMMV.

79. gabereiser ◴[] No.24840827{8}[source]
I learn so much from grammar folks. :D
80. ineedasername ◴[] No.24841534{4}[source]
No, the fact that Linux is not currently a practical option for most users isn't proof that it can't be or never will be.

I am saying the lack of desktop adoption is indicative of the difficulties of doing so. There is a level-of-effort barrier and technical-knowledge barrier to it. 20 years of progress have lowered those barriers a lot, but even if something like Ubuntu will often be fully functional with a standard install, most users never have to install an OS. They can't walk into Best Buy and come out with a computer that runs desktop Linux.

I think the success of Chrome Books show that people would be receptive to alternative operating systems, but we don't have a retail or post-purchase support environment in place to facilitate it, and I don't see that coming on the horizon.

81. a1369209993 ◴[] No.24841663{6}[source]
Buy preinstalled from where, exactly?

(And no, chromebooks are not linux for any practical purpose, although they probably would be easier to install a real linux system on.)

replies(1): >>24841711 #
82. brimstedt ◴[] No.24841679{5}[source]
I have been using windows, apple and Linux (KDE) on a daily basis and handle all os' quite well.

KDE is by far my preference and in general I don't think neither windows nor macos has fewer problems despite the price tag.

After hearing the "it just works" mantra of apple users for many years I was surprised to find I had at least as many glitches on the Mac as I did on KDE (win 7 was better, 10 has more problems ime).

(I use my computers for development and sysadmin, not gaming or art)

83. fsflover ◴[] No.24841711{7}[source]
https://system76.com

https://puri.sm

https://www.debian.org/distrib/pre-installed

and many more.

84. ineedasername ◴[] No.24841776{4}[source]
The key thing there is that you installed the OS. You're saying there's little difficulty in using the OS, but that isn't what I mean when I say it's not a practical option. The core problem is that the average person doesn't know how and wouldn't be comfortable taking that step, even if it's pretty easy once you know how. You have also made yourself their support person. They can't bring their computer to Best Buy or call Apple if they have a problem. We don't have the retail & support infrastructure in place for desktop Linux to be a viable option. These are the things I'm talking about when I say it's not a practical option for a typical user.
replies(1): >>24842086 #
85. ineedasername ◴[] No.24841827{4}[source]
The barrier isn't usability or functionality for most use cases. The barrier is getting it on the computer and supporting it. We don't have the retail & support infrastructure in place for it to be a practical option. If a non-technical person has Linux on their computer, it's probably because some technical relative put it there, and has made themselves the support person for it as well. You can't walk into a Best Buy and walk out with an Ubuntu laptop. The is an effort & technical knowledge barrier to it, and that's what I mean when I say it's not currently a practical option for a typical user.
86. ineedasername ◴[] No.24841847{4}[source]
Then you have provided a solution that is not generalizable. Which is fine, but not particularly useful to this conversation.
replies(1): >>24842109 #
87. fsflover ◴[] No.24842086{5}[source]
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24840166
replies(1): >>24842542 #
88. ◴[] No.24842097{5}[source]
89. nix23 ◴[] No.24842109{5}[source]
Use Linux or any other free OS, personal preferences are normaly not generalizable.
90. ineedasername ◴[] No.24842542{6}[source]
None of those options are viable for mass market adoption right now. They are niche operations that are practically invisible to anyone outside of the industry. I didn't say you can't buy Linux pre-installed, I said you can't go into a big-box store like Best Buy to do so, and that there's no significant consumer support infrastructure.

There's also the strong possibility that at least some of these places won't exist anymore at some time over the lifetime of the computer. Purism is only a few years old, with ~ $1million in revenue/year. It uses its own flavor of Linux, meaning support options are extremely limited. System76's website is itself half-broken, with 500 errors when I attempt to customize a system.

You cannot point to niche operations and claim it to be a viable mass-market option. I'm not saying it isn't possible to get there, I'm saying it doesn't exist today, which means it is not an option for mass-market consumers. If tomorrow a million Apple users said "Enough! LittleSnitch is the straw that breaks the camel's back!" and decided they wanted to shop for a desktop linux system, the market couldn't handle it.

Remember, I'm not saying Linux can't be successful on the desktop, I'm saying that it is not a mass-market option right now for users frustrated with Windows/OS X.

replies(1): >>24845625 #
91. munificent ◴[] No.24842605{4}[source]
> free alternative

Only "free" in terms of literal monetary payments to acquire the operating system. But the choice between Apple's stack and other Linux stacks has many trade-offs in terms of time, support, documentation, complexity, transition cost, etc.

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92. zepto ◴[] No.24842682{5}[source]
Agreed, but that’s not because of an ‘oligopoly’ constraining supply.

The only thing stopping those trade-offs being changed is people’s willingness to make the changes.

Based on a lot of criticism of MacOS I see here, some of that is because people don’t actually want to change the trade offs.

93. hilbert42 ◴[] No.24843835{3}[source]
'Windows doesn't bypass 3rd party firewalls.'

Sorry WarOnPrivacy, Windows does bypass 3rd-party firewalls and has done so since at least XP onwards (however, I am uncertain if this was the case with Windows 2000).

Microsoft has programmed into Windows dozens of addresses that 'dial home' to Microsoft's servers. As you will be aware, many of these addresses change with the various versions of Windows. Normal program switches can block some of these addresses whilst others are hidden from normal view, but with a little judicious snooping, we can find most of hidden ones and successfully block them with the hosts file.

However, we cannot block all of them, and this has been the case since Windows XP. From my understanding, which I learned from various security experts around 15 or more years ago at the time when the Microsoft 'exploit' was first discovered, Microsoft hard-coded certain dial-home links for the specific purpose of determining which and how many copies of Windows were pirated. (This seemed to have been the consequence of the widespread pirating of certain corporate copies of Windows 2000.)

Whilst the user many have thought he'd secured every talk-home to Microsoft loophole and was safe, nevertheless MS still knew that his O/S was a pirate version. Unlike other activation links that announced an 'illegal copy' status to the user, these links only advised Microsoft of the fact—if you like, there're part of Microsoft's secret surveillance system. Essentially, Microsoft has deliberately sabotaged the DNS client's hosts table lookup functionality by bypassing it with hard coding.

It seems that in recent years, Microsoft has developed this secret system to an even finer art, as these days it gathers much more information other than whether the O/S has been pirated or not.

With having the handle WarOnPrivacy, I gather you're more than just interested in securing your Windows in the usual ways. If I were you, I'd do what I'm doing here and that's to research the details further and then publicize the fact. As will now be obvious, this is not something that Microsoft wants broadcast to the world.

Below are a few links about the matter with a few comments from some of the sites:

https://slashdot.org/story/06/04/16/1351217/Microsoft-Bypass...

https://bugtraq.securityfocus.narkive.com/a2fZWlAb/microsoft...

" Hey, guess what I just found out: Microsoft have deliberately sabotaged their DNS client's hosts table lookup functionality. Normally you can override DNS lookup by specifying a hostname and IP directly in the hosts file, which is searched before any query is issued to your dns server; this technique is often used to block ads, spyware and phone-homes by aliasing the host to be blocked to 127.0.0.1 in your hosts file."

https://www.theregister.com/2015/09/01/microsoft_backports_d...

"All the updates can be removed post-installation – but all ensure the OS reports data to Microsoft even when asked not to, bypassing the hosts file and (hence) third-party privacy tools. This data can include how long you use apps, and which features you use the most, snapshots of memory to investigate crashes, and so on."

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94. bayindirh ◴[] No.24845268{5}[source]
Hey, thanks for your comment. There are no hard feelings and I really appreciate that. I'm not a native speaker but, I try to write and talk as correctly as possible.

I used to put commas before, however some grammar checking tools like grammarly marked them as wrong, and I changed my ways.

Comma rules are complex in both in my native language and English and a good, definitive guide would be really helpful.

Thanks for your comment again.

95. fsflover ◴[] No.24845625{7}[source]
> It uses its own flavor of Linux, meaning support options are extremely limited.

The difference between PureOS and Debian is practically non-existent.

> System76's website is itself half-broken, with 500 errors

OK, it proves that the company is about to die. We of course never see those errors on big websites /s

>If tomorrow a million Apple users said "Enough! LittleSnitch is the straw that breaks the camel's back!" and decided they wanted to shop for a desktop linux system, the market couldn't handle it.

Although it is true, the good news is that such thing just cannot happen. This is not how the market changes. The change is always smooth enough that the companies can adjust. And I am sure Purism and System76 are able to given reasonable time.

> I'm saying that it is not a mass-market option right now for users frustrated with Windows/OS X.

Many (most?) frustrated users on MacOS are those who can use the options I listed. If they understand the problems like the one in the title, they definitely can order a laptop online. Probably also true with Windows. Such changes typically start with geeks anyway (AFAIK geeks switched to MacOS first).

> You cannot point to niche operations and claim it to be a viable mass-market option.

I did not claim that. I suggest that those complaining about users restrictions should go to Linux. Typical users do not complain about such things.

> I didn't say you can't buy Linux pre-installed, I said you can't go into a big-box store like Best Buy to do so, and that there's no significant consumer support infrastructure.

Now you have a point and I actually do not really understand, why I cannot just enter a big shop and ask for a Linux laptop. I actually tried to ask tens of times and they always say there are no. Sounds like a conspiracy by the big labels to me.

96. nix23 ◴[] No.24845730{3}[source]
Have Fun then, i have fun with my even less fiddli tech..like a normal watch, a real stereo and no pods....
97. horsawlarway ◴[] No.24850504{5}[source]
Yes, at least in my experience over the last two years with Arch running Gnome as the DE.

Wayland's trackpad support is excellent, I can switch from my mac for work to my personal machine without noticing.

Multi monitor support is MILES (I literally cannot emphasize how much better it is) better. Different scaling ratios for different monitors, much better automatic detection and configuration.

There are two remaining problems in my opinion

- Screen sharing is still rather hit or miss. Pipewire is functional for me on latest versions of chromium, but does not work for some electron apps that package older versions (Slack, in this case).

- X-Wayland applications still make you feel the hurt from Xorg. Most times I don't care, but the default builds of chromium and chrome both rely on X-Wayland. There are AUR builds of chromium that have moved to Ozone and have native Wayland support, though (https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/chromium-ozone/)

----

Long story short, Wayland is why my personal machine no longer has windows on it. It's genuinely much better, and I don't spend any time at all dicking around with xorg config files (literally not once have I touched a config file related to monitors or user input devices on my current linux box in the last year. It feels very nice.)

98. WarOnPrivacy ◴[] No.24853242{4}[source]
None of what you've posted has anything to do with firewalls, 3rd party or otherwise. Similarly, bypassing the Hosts file is strictly a DNS resolution issue and - again - has nothing to do with firewalls.

Please feel free to post info about actual firewalls, info that isn't about DNS/Hosts.

replies(1): >>24866400 #
99. hilbert42 ◴[] No.24866400{5}[source]
1. Firewalls can monitor existing host settings and take them into account.

2. The 'dial-home' mentioned bypasses Windows's firewall.

3. External monitoring has shown that it does bypass firewalls (however, I cannot say whether that's all of them). So does security software such as LoJack (but that's somewhat unusual).

4. This includes ones with kernel drivers.

5. As the code is written to be invisible to other processes, firewall writers would either have to reverse engineer MS's code to stop it or know certain proprietary details about it. I doubt if any legit/reputable developer would risk using info gained from RE (certainty not to stop it functioning as MS intended). Nevertheless, some MS parteners know about it for obvious reasons.

6. From various news reports several weeks ago, it seems that XP's source code has leaked. That means if you are keen enough you can find the 'offending' code and verify the matter for yourself one way or the other (at least as far as XP goes). If you don't, then sooner or later l'm sure others will do so.

If I and others who share this understanding are way off beam, which I doubt having seen evidence, then please let us all know about it in a HN post.