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1183 points robenkleene | 35 comments | | HN request time: 0.385s | source | bottom
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jjoonathan ◴[] No.24838965[source]
"You don't need kernel extensions, we'll provide APIs for you! We won't abuse the power that gives us, promise!"

...and now Apple has altered the deal and we must pray they do not alter it further. Disgusting. Predictable, expected, unsurprising -- but still disgusting.

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1. gabereiser ◴[] No.24839566[source]
Tim Cook's Apple Inc is really a nightmare. Sure we have sleek shiny laptops and devices that are amazingly powerful but at what cost? I still haven't found a trackpad as good as MagicTrackpad sadly otherwise I'd ditch the MacBook Pro.

To be fair to Apple though, it's their OS, they can do what they want and we agree every time we update MacOS or iOS. It's crazy to me that we basically only have 3 phone device choices, 2.15 environment choices (OS wise... Linux Desktop is crap, but getting better), and only 2 choices in GPU's, CPU's, etc...

What can we do about this?

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2. ProAm ◴[] No.24839667[source]
Would you use a good trackpad that connects via USB or bluetooth? Its a real question because I see a lot of comments about people not leaving the Macbook because of the trackpad even though they dislike the rest of the laptop? Seems like something that could be a product?
replies(5): >>24839725 #>>24839726 #>>24839751 #>>24839771 #>>24840154 #
3. jonny_eh ◴[] No.24839673[source]
Look on the bright side, having at least 2 choices is waaaay better than only 1.
4. vinay427 ◴[] No.24839683[source]
What is distinct about the direction of Tim Cook's Apple Inc compared to any previous Apple Inc?
replies(3): >>24839760 #>>24839796 #>>24840217 #
5. kccqzy ◴[] No.24839725[source]
No you wouldn't. It's not about the trackpad hardware (Apple sells a separate Bluetooth trackpad after all), but it's about the software.
replies(1): >>24839866 #
6. ucosty ◴[] No.24839726[source]
You can already buy an external Magic Trackpad from Apple (https://www.apple.com/uk/shop/product/MJ2R2Z/A/magic-trackpa...). Not terribly useful for a laptop unless you want to set up at a desk.
7. tapland ◴[] No.24839751[source]
That’s called a mouse.

The trackpad is important because it’s the default interface when moving the portable computer. External devices kill that.

8. bayindirh ◴[] No.24839760[source]
Jobs' Apple created technologies which have rooted deeply in POSIX standards and standard UNIX* conventions. If you knew UNIX(Linux/BSD/whatever), you can find the same data streams on the same places.

OS was obscure but, predictable. Different but, familiar. It had kernel extensions, logs and devices. Nothing was extremely obfuscated. It was a UNIX device but, shinier.

Now it feels like a glorified iOS box with more transparent walls. You can see some gears but can't touch them. There are only limited interfaces to some of those, which you can touch remotely but, not alter completely.

I wonder what will happen to my EXT drivers from Paragon though.

replies(2): >>24839889 #>>24839918 #
9. jeromenerf ◴[] No.24839771[source]
Nah, it’s just people whining and finding excuses.
10. vlunkr ◴[] No.24839794[source]
I used to be really tied to the Apple trackpad. After switching to Linux and a keyboard-driven window manager I couldn't care less. I'm not going to say Linux Desktop is perfect, but at this point I'd pick it over everything else.
11. arcticbull ◴[] No.24839796[source]
Without taking a position on OPs value judgement, the difference between Steve's Apple and Tim Apple's is that services have come to the fore.

Apple has historically always considered itself a hardware company, and now it is a hardware and services company. Small but concrete examples are the Settings page's "Activate your free trial of AppleTV+ today!" and their constant pitching of Apple Card. This is the thin edge, more than likely, of them moving to a model not of monetizing your hardware but rather capturing your data and selling you on a subscription bundle of services.

This transition is in a way necessitated by their declining revenue growth, so they're looking at new ways of monetizing their existing users.

12. ProAm ◴[] No.24839866{3}[source]
What about the software makes it good? Ive never used a macbook so have zero experience with it.
replies(3): >>24840010 #>>24840113 #>>24840197 #
13. Arubis ◴[] No.24839889{3}[source]
I intend this with kindness: normally I don’t nitpick on grammar and punctuation, but you’ve got a repeated error here that’s easily corrected. Generally, you want to break your sentences with commas _before_ usage of “but”: “He wanted to buy a pen, but the store had run out.”

If you’re a native speaker, the comma goes where you’d naturally have a brief pause in speech.

If you’re not a native speaker, it may be helpful to remember that the clause with “but” should be able to be removed & what remains should still be a valid sentence: “He wanted to buy a pen.”, not “He wanted to buy a pen but.”

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14. Wowfunhappy ◴[] No.24839918{3}[source]
It's perhaps worth noting that iOS and all of its restrictions were created under Steve Jobs. And Jobs absolutely expected iOS devices to eventually replace full computers for most people; as he put it, everyone needs a car but only a few need a truck.

Where I absolutely agree with you is that under Jobs, there were no attempts to make macOS behave more like a car. Lion did borrow a handful of visual elements from iOS, but it was mostly aesthetic. Jobs was also on medical leave for much of Lion's development cycle, so I wonder if he was less involved.

replies(1): >>24840172 #
15. Wowfunhappy ◴[] No.24839979{4}[source]
I read this as a poetic choice by GP—it evoked Apple's "Think different" tagline in my mind, although now I'm not actually sure why. I could be wrong though!
replies(1): >>24840205 #
16. daniel-thompson ◴[] No.24840010{4}[source]
For me, two things combine to make it feel super responsive: 1. The latency between you moving your finger(s) and seeing movement on the screen feels imperceptible. 2. There isn't any "lost" movement - if you scribble your finger around really quickly and come back to where you start, the cursor or window scroll position will be back to where it started too.
17. ◴[] No.24840038{4}[source]
18. x87678r ◴[] No.24840099[source]
New XPS 15 has great trackpad and is a good alternative. Its not any cheaper than MBP though. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCM8FZlFTas
replies(2): >>24840167 #>>24840169 #
19. michaelmrose ◴[] No.24840106[source]
The talos raptor has a power9 cpu. The Ampere is powered by arm. There is an upcoming risc-v based pc by SiFive

That is at least 3 niche entries in addition to the 2 mainstream choices.

Intel wants really badly to be a 3rd player in the GPU space and its integrated graphics are already good enough if you aren't gaming although I have doubts about their upcoming dedicated GPU.

The Linux desktop space is nicer in the keyboard centric simple environments space or at least ditch gnome and switch to KDE running on an distro that actually stays up to date.

The challenge is not mostly using such an environment its setting it up in the first place.

Looks like every category has 3-5 options.

20. fsflover ◴[] No.24840113{4}[source]
See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24700537
21. m463 ◴[] No.24840124[source]
don't upgrade and/or don't continue with apple.

Alternatively firewall your machine, but apple keeps allowing itself workarounds, like find my where "offline" machines aren't so offline.

And then 5G has all kinds of inter-machine connectivity.

22. hrktb ◴[] No.24840154[source]
The trackpad is just the saillant point.

As we(I) go deeper the "let's try linux" route, thousands more papercuts come to the surface. It's fine for specific use cases (e.g. just focusing on backend dev), it becomes worse for wider use cases.

23. kibwen ◴[] No.24840167[source]
Can confirm that my 2016-era XPS 15 model has the best trackpad I've used on a PC. I did have an issue where after a few years it became almost impossible to physically click (still important for click-and-drag operations), though after investigation it turned out that the dying battery was swelling up from below and interfering with the trackpad. So, full marks on the trackpad, but I hope they've ironed out their battery story.
24. horsawlarway ◴[] No.24840169[source]
Second this - XPS machines on Wayland are basically spot on for trackpads.

Honestly - just Wayland in general has dramatically improved my linux desktop experience. 10/10, will never go back to X.

replies(1): >>24840619 #
25. nicoburns ◴[] No.24840172{4}[source]
Indeed. I think for all his faults, Jobs was still himself a "power user". He understood why people wanted to be able to tweak things like this because he wanted to be able to this himself (even if most of the time he used an ipad).
replies(1): >>24840802 #
26. passwordreset ◴[] No.24840197{4}[source]
Spaces, the virtual desktop manager, makes it good. A few years ago, multiple desktops were accessible with a 3-finger swipe left or right. Now, when you make an app full-screen, it creates a new space to contain the app, so multiple full-screen apps are easily accessible.

Linux has a virtual desktop manager, and Windows has some 3rd-party apps that provide multiple desktops. None of those apps seem as tightly integrated and useful as this Mac OS feature.

27. joshiee ◴[] No.24840205{5}[source]
to me it's plainly wrong for a comma. but I also don't like to color outside the box. perhaps an ellipses would've been ok.
replies(1): >>24840608 #
28. ◴[] No.24840217[source]
29. wruza ◴[] No.24840343{4}[source]
If you’re a native speaker, the comma goes where you’d naturally have a brief pause in speech.

Some speech styles use pause after "but". You can hear it from news reporters and on tv shows in general, when actors read partial sentences from paper or screen. It is not exclusive to english, and it is a common mistake to use punctuation with respect to own/technical intonations and delays instead of correct ones.

"X but, Y" likely means "X, but... Y" here, i.e. the first pause is much less pronounced than the second.

30. bigwavedave ◴[] No.24840608{6}[source]
Don't worry, your instincts are correct. The only time a comma should follow a conjunction is if there is an interrupting phrase that breaks up the sentence. Example: "He's a nice guy but, to be honest, he smells like a hippopotamus."
replies(1): >>24840827 #
31. darthrupert ◴[] No.24840619{3}[source]
Did Wayland start being good recently? Its glacial progress is one of the reasons I switched to macs a few years ago.
replies(1): >>24850504 #
32. gabereiser ◴[] No.24840802{5}[source]
It’s been documented how irate he would get over small details. Those small details are really only seen by someone who is a power user and has a vision for what it _should_ be. Not to make excuses for his behavior but he understood technology and wanted to make it simple for everyone. That drive towards simplicity makes you have to make a choice as to what features are left to the user and what features are managed by the system. Increasingly under Cook it’s been the later.

The argument that most of this started under Jobs is valid. True. But like it was commented he was dealing with an illness and it’s unknown just how much involvement he had. This is obviously just my view of the land and my perspective is my own. YMMV.

33. gabereiser ◴[] No.24840827{7}[source]
I learn so much from grammar folks. :D
34. bayindirh ◴[] No.24845268{4}[source]
Hey, thanks for your comment. There are no hard feelings and I really appreciate that. I'm not a native speaker but, I try to write and talk as correctly as possible.

I used to put commas before, however some grammar checking tools like grammarly marked them as wrong, and I changed my ways.

Comma rules are complex in both in my native language and English and a good, definitive guide would be really helpful.

Thanks for your comment again.

35. horsawlarway ◴[] No.24850504{4}[source]
Yes, at least in my experience over the last two years with Arch running Gnome as the DE.

Wayland's trackpad support is excellent, I can switch from my mac for work to my personal machine without noticing.

Multi monitor support is MILES (I literally cannot emphasize how much better it is) better. Different scaling ratios for different monitors, much better automatic detection and configuration.

There are two remaining problems in my opinion

- Screen sharing is still rather hit or miss. Pipewire is functional for me on latest versions of chromium, but does not work for some electron apps that package older versions (Slack, in this case).

- X-Wayland applications still make you feel the hurt from Xorg. Most times I don't care, but the default builds of chromium and chrome both rely on X-Wayland. There are AUR builds of chromium that have moved to Ozone and have native Wayland support, though (https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/chromium-ozone/)

----

Long story short, Wayland is why my personal machine no longer has windows on it. It's genuinely much better, and I don't spend any time at all dicking around with xorg config files (literally not once have I touched a config file related to monitors or user input devices on my current linux box in the last year. It feels very nice.)