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1183 points robenkleene | 47 comments | | HN request time: 0.574s | source | bottom
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jjoonathan ◴[] No.24838965[source]
"You don't need kernel extensions, we'll provide APIs for you! We won't abuse the power that gives us, promise!"

...and now Apple has altered the deal and we must pray they do not alter it further. Disgusting. Predictable, expected, unsurprising -- but still disgusting.

replies(6): >>24839165 #>>24839174 #>>24839249 #>>24839470 #>>24839566 #>>24840061 #
1. nix23 ◴[] No.24839174[source]
Dont pray, just dont buy Apple Products
replies(5): >>24839211 #>>24839285 #>>24839301 #>>24839473 #>>24840677 #
2. Skunkleton ◴[] No.24839211[source]
It's a frustrating road we are headed down. Tech companies have gotten so big that they don't really have to work together using standardization anymore. Options are limited, and most are anti-consumer in one way or another.
replies(1): >>24839540 #
3. gogopuppygogo ◴[] No.24839285[source]
The alternative is what? System76 makes a decent laptop but they don’t have a repair center in every major city. I buy Apple computers because of the hardware support and integration with iPhone.

Speaking of iPhone, the open options are at best abysmal for privacy (at least orders of magnitudes worse than Apple) and at worst part of planned obsolescence that creates e-waste much faster than Apple devices.

Fun fact, at least for now, you can still buy a Mac and boot Linux. Probably not true once Apple silicon hits but that’s a sad day for anyone who liked boot camp.

replies(3): >>24839331 #>>24839347 #>>24839496 #
4. munificent ◴[] No.24839301[source]
Boycotting is not an effective strategy for addressing oligopolies. You need actual strong anti-trust regulation.
replies(6): >>24839399 #>>24839501 #>>24839914 #>>24840126 #>>24840146 #>>24840218 #
5. solatic ◴[] No.24839331[source]
You respond as if the majority of buyers do not already have alternatives for Apple laptops and Apple phones.
6. fortran77 ◴[] No.24839347[source]
The alternative is Windows 10 on a wide variety of hardware, or Linux.
replies(1): >>24839461 #
7. y7 ◴[] No.24839399[source]
Hear hear. All "just use an alternative" does is temporarily shift the problem. And then tomorrow an article appears highlighting Windows 10's invasive telemetry and people say "yeah just use macOS".
replies(2): >>24839660 #>>24839924 #
8. throwaway2048 ◴[] No.24839461{3}[source]
Windows 10 has even more invasive spyware nonsense.
replies(1): >>24839526 #
9. ineedasername ◴[] No.24839473[source]
What's the alternative for the typical user? Windows has its own problems, and let's face it: market forces on this sort of thing or any other practices by the two of them have not driven people to use desktop Linux instead. For most people, there's simply no reasonable option to switch to that would avoid these things or employ market forces to get these companies to change their ways.
replies(4): >>24839516 #>>24839941 #>>24840143 #>>24840171 #
10. nix23 ◴[] No.24839496[source]
>Fun fact, at least for now, you can still buy a Mac and boot Linux.

Are you praing too that Apple will still allow that in the future?

>I buy Apple computers because of the hardware support and integration with iPhone

Have fun then, i dont buy Think different but same.

11. curiousgal ◴[] No.24839501[source]
Regulation will never be ahead of corporations. Regulators always play catch-up. Seeing how, at the end of the day, all these company care about is profits, hitting them where it hurts will make a difference.

That being said, Linux is available, and it's perfectly usable by people who would be bothered by Apple's dev policies.

replies(1): >>24839651 #
12. nix23 ◴[] No.24839516[source]
I'm not a "typical" user so i dont care.
replies(2): >>24839586 #>>24841847 #
13. nix23 ◴[] No.24839526{4}[source]
Not the Enterprise/Education edition.
replies(1): >>24839589 #
14. nix23 ◴[] No.24839540[source]
>Options are limited

No not really, but limited is the mindset of peoples.

replies(1): >>24839616 #
15. pmarreck ◴[] No.24839586{3}[source]
So basically you provided a suggestion that only works for you.
replies(1): >>24842097 #
16. throwaway2048 ◴[] No.24839589{5}[source]
That you can't legally acquire outside of a commercial support contract.
replies(1): >>24839891 #
17. gabereiser ◴[] No.24839616{3}[source]
>No not really, but limited is the mindset of peoples.

I'd argue options really are limited. Your counter argument assumes one can just roll their own OS with the same features and functionality as current-gen OS's. That's quite a leap. Options today are Windows, Mac, or some flavor of Linux if you can get it to work. Linux aside, Windows and Mac both are making it so you no longer own the OS but are "subscribed" to it. Making it easy for them to implement anti-consumer strategies to lock you in.

replies(1): >>24840166 #
18. seg_lol ◴[] No.24839651{3}[source]
These companies would be happy to lose the customer and the vars that complain. Unless you can convince 100x more people than yourself to loudly and dramatically move to something not as user hostile, just voting with your dollars will not work, there isn't enough competition.
replies(2): >>24839718 #>>24839767 #
19. anamexis ◴[] No.24839660{3}[source]
I think in both cases, people generally say "use Linux".
replies(1): >>24841679 #
20. nix23 ◴[] No.24839718{4}[source]
It's not about voting, it's about the tech YOU use. You want apple? Buy it, if not dont. I really dont care what others use.
21. giantg2 ◴[] No.24839767{4}[source]
"Unless you can convince 100x more people..."

I don't even know 10 people who use Mac.

22. wayneftw ◴[] No.24839891{6}[source]
you can buy it right here for 299

https://www.trustedtechteam.com/products/windows-10-enterpri...

23. rch ◴[] No.24839914[source]
Engineers and scientists choosing MBPs as a means of getting a POSIX system on nice hardware did more for getting Macs in the workplace than any of the anti-trust actions did.
24. fsflover ◴[] No.24839924{3}[source]
See also: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24831699
25. _-david-_ ◴[] No.24839941[source]
Depends on what the typical user does. I would guess a lot of people would be fine with a Chrome Book.
replies(1): >>24841827 #
26. fsflover ◴[] No.24840126[source]
You need everything at the same time. You also should promote Linux among your friends.
27. fsflover ◴[] No.24840143[source]
I installed GNU/Linux for my relatives and it's been working fine for years. So I would say GNU/Linux is a perfect alternative for typical users.
replies(1): >>24841776 #
28. ballenf ◴[] No.24840146[source]
I get the antitrust case on iOS, but has the argument been widened to include regulating what Apple does with its PCs?

Or are we saying that we want the federal government to regulate OSs generally?

29. fsflover ◴[] No.24840166{4}[source]
> or some flavor of Linux if you can get it to work

Do not try to get anything work. Just buy preinstalled.

replies(1): >>24841663 #
30. brlewis ◴[] No.24840171[source]
Are you saying that because large numbers of typical users have not yet switched to desktop Linux, we can conclude that desktop Linux is not a reasonable option they can switch to?
replies(1): >>24841534 #
31. zepto ◴[] No.24840218[source]
Except that it’s not an oligopoly - it can’t be by definition.

There is a free alternative which is better in many ways and has an unlimited supply.

The only reason Apple has a lead in software is that they have made their closed source model deliver end-user benefits at a faster rate than the open source alternatives.

There is no reason this needs to remain true, and there are a lot of signs that it will not continue.

replies(1): >>24842605 #
32. darthrupert ◴[] No.24840677[source]
Yeah, I don't think so. I fought with technology since my late teens, and I'm just too old for that shit now. I have maybe an hour to spend on freetime every day and I want to spend exactly 0 seconds of it battling with my devices.

Apple gives me that. Ubuntu gives me that these days in some limited sense too, but not when you factor in AppleTV , phone, pad, homepod and airpod and the watch.

replies(1): >>24845730 #
33. ineedasername ◴[] No.24841534{3}[source]
No, the fact that Linux is not currently a practical option for most users isn't proof that it can't be or never will be.

I am saying the lack of desktop adoption is indicative of the difficulties of doing so. There is a level-of-effort barrier and technical-knowledge barrier to it. 20 years of progress have lowered those barriers a lot, but even if something like Ubuntu will often be fully functional with a standard install, most users never have to install an OS. They can't walk into Best Buy and come out with a computer that runs desktop Linux.

I think the success of Chrome Books show that people would be receptive to alternative operating systems, but we don't have a retail or post-purchase support environment in place to facilitate it, and I don't see that coming on the horizon.

34. a1369209993 ◴[] No.24841663{5}[source]
Buy preinstalled from where, exactly?

(And no, chromebooks are not linux for any practical purpose, although they probably would be easier to install a real linux system on.)

replies(1): >>24841711 #
35. brimstedt ◴[] No.24841679{4}[source]
I have been using windows, apple and Linux (KDE) on a daily basis and handle all os' quite well.

KDE is by far my preference and in general I don't think neither windows nor macos has fewer problems despite the price tag.

After hearing the "it just works" mantra of apple users for many years I was surprised to find I had at least as many glitches on the Mac as I did on KDE (win 7 was better, 10 has more problems ime).

(I use my computers for development and sysadmin, not gaming or art)

36. fsflover ◴[] No.24841711{6}[source]
https://system76.com

https://puri.sm

https://www.debian.org/distrib/pre-installed

and many more.

37. ineedasername ◴[] No.24841776{3}[source]
The key thing there is that you installed the OS. You're saying there's little difficulty in using the OS, but that isn't what I mean when I say it's not a practical option. The core problem is that the average person doesn't know how and wouldn't be comfortable taking that step, even if it's pretty easy once you know how. You have also made yourself their support person. They can't bring their computer to Best Buy or call Apple if they have a problem. We don't have the retail & support infrastructure in place for desktop Linux to be a viable option. These are the things I'm talking about when I say it's not a practical option for a typical user.
replies(1): >>24842086 #
38. ineedasername ◴[] No.24841827{3}[source]
The barrier isn't usability or functionality for most use cases. The barrier is getting it on the computer and supporting it. We don't have the retail & support infrastructure in place for it to be a practical option. If a non-technical person has Linux on their computer, it's probably because some technical relative put it there, and has made themselves the support person for it as well. You can't walk into a Best Buy and walk out with an Ubuntu laptop. The is an effort & technical knowledge barrier to it, and that's what I mean when I say it's not currently a practical option for a typical user.
39. ineedasername ◴[] No.24841847{3}[source]
Then you have provided a solution that is not generalizable. Which is fine, but not particularly useful to this conversation.
replies(1): >>24842109 #
40. fsflover ◴[] No.24842086{4}[source]
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24840166
replies(1): >>24842542 #
41. ◴[] No.24842097{4}[source]
42. nix23 ◴[] No.24842109{4}[source]
Use Linux or any other free OS, personal preferences are normaly not generalizable.
43. ineedasername ◴[] No.24842542{5}[source]
None of those options are viable for mass market adoption right now. They are niche operations that are practically invisible to anyone outside of the industry. I didn't say you can't buy Linux pre-installed, I said you can't go into a big-box store like Best Buy to do so, and that there's no significant consumer support infrastructure.

There's also the strong possibility that at least some of these places won't exist anymore at some time over the lifetime of the computer. Purism is only a few years old, with ~ $1million in revenue/year. It uses its own flavor of Linux, meaning support options are extremely limited. System76's website is itself half-broken, with 500 errors when I attempt to customize a system.

You cannot point to niche operations and claim it to be a viable mass-market option. I'm not saying it isn't possible to get there, I'm saying it doesn't exist today, which means it is not an option for mass-market consumers. If tomorrow a million Apple users said "Enough! LittleSnitch is the straw that breaks the camel's back!" and decided they wanted to shop for a desktop linux system, the market couldn't handle it.

Remember, I'm not saying Linux can't be successful on the desktop, I'm saying that it is not a mass-market option right now for users frustrated with Windows/OS X.

replies(1): >>24845625 #
44. munificent ◴[] No.24842605{3}[source]
> free alternative

Only "free" in terms of literal monetary payments to acquire the operating system. But the choice between Apple's stack and other Linux stacks has many trade-offs in terms of time, support, documentation, complexity, transition cost, etc.

replies(1): >>24842682 #
45. zepto ◴[] No.24842682{4}[source]
Agreed, but that’s not because of an ‘oligopoly’ constraining supply.

The only thing stopping those trade-offs being changed is people’s willingness to make the changes.

Based on a lot of criticism of MacOS I see here, some of that is because people don’t actually want to change the trade offs.

46. fsflover ◴[] No.24845625{6}[source]
> It uses its own flavor of Linux, meaning support options are extremely limited.

The difference between PureOS and Debian is practically non-existent.

> System76's website is itself half-broken, with 500 errors

OK, it proves that the company is about to die. We of course never see those errors on big websites /s

>If tomorrow a million Apple users said "Enough! LittleSnitch is the straw that breaks the camel's back!" and decided they wanted to shop for a desktop linux system, the market couldn't handle it.

Although it is true, the good news is that such thing just cannot happen. This is not how the market changes. The change is always smooth enough that the companies can adjust. And I am sure Purism and System76 are able to given reasonable time.

> I'm saying that it is not a mass-market option right now for users frustrated with Windows/OS X.

Many (most?) frustrated users on MacOS are those who can use the options I listed. If they understand the problems like the one in the title, they definitely can order a laptop online. Probably also true with Windows. Such changes typically start with geeks anyway (AFAIK geeks switched to MacOS first).

> You cannot point to niche operations and claim it to be a viable mass-market option.

I did not claim that. I suggest that those complaining about users restrictions should go to Linux. Typical users do not complain about such things.

> I didn't say you can't buy Linux pre-installed, I said you can't go into a big-box store like Best Buy to do so, and that there's no significant consumer support infrastructure.

Now you have a point and I actually do not really understand, why I cannot just enter a big shop and ask for a Linux laptop. I actually tried to ask tens of times and they always say there are no. Sounds like a conspiracy by the big labels to me.

47. nix23 ◴[] No.24845730[source]
Have Fun then, i have fun with my even less fiddli tech..like a normal watch, a real stereo and no pods....