Apple's apps bypass firewalls like LittleSnitch and LuLu on macOS Big Sur

What's the alternative for the typical user? Windows has its own problems, and let's face it: market forces on this sort of thing or any other practices by the two of them have not driven people to use desktop Linux instead. For most people, there's simply no reasonable option to switch to that would avoid these things or employ market forces to get these companies to change their ways.

I'm not a "typical" user so i dont care.

So basically you provided a suggestion that only works for you.

Depends on what the typical user does. I would guess a lot of people would be fine with a Chrome Book.

I installed GNU/Linux for my relatives and it's been working fine for years. So I would say GNU/Linux is a perfect alternative for typical users.

Are you saying that because large numbers of typical users have not yet switched to desktop Linux, we can conclude that desktop Linux is not a reasonable option they can switch to?

No, the fact that Linux is not currently a practical option for most users isn't proof that it can't be or never will be.

I am saying the lack of desktop adoption is indicative of the difficulties of doing so. There is a level-of-effort barrier and technical-knowledge barrier to it. 20 years of progress have lowered those barriers a lot, but even if something like Ubuntu will often be fully functional with a standard install, most users never have to install an OS. They can't walk into Best Buy and come out with a computer that runs desktop Linux.

I think the success of Chrome Books show that people would be receptive to alternative operating systems, but we don't have a retail or post-purchase support environment in place to facilitate it, and I don't see that coming on the horizon.

The key thing there is that you installed the OS. You're saying there's little difficulty in using the OS, but that isn't what I mean when I say it's not a practical option. The core problem is that the average person doesn't know how and wouldn't be comfortable taking that step, even if it's pretty easy once you know how. You have also made yourself their support person. They can't bring their computer to Best Buy or call Apple if they have a problem. We don't have the retail & support infrastructure in place for desktop Linux to be a viable option. These are the things I'm talking about when I say it's not a practical option for a typical user.

The barrier isn't usability or functionality for most use cases. The barrier is getting it on the computer and supporting it. We don't have the retail & support infrastructure in place for it to be a practical option. If a non-technical person has Linux on their computer, it's probably because some technical relative put it there, and has made themselves the support person for it as well. You can't walk into a Best Buy and walk out with an Ubuntu laptop. The is an effort & technical knowledge barrier to it, and that's what I mean when I say it's not currently a practical option for a typical user.

Then you have provided a solution that is not generalizable. Which is fine, but not particularly useful to this conversation.

Use Linux or any other free OS, personal preferences are normaly not generalizable.

None of those options are viable for mass market adoption right now. They are niche operations that are practically invisible to anyone outside of the industry. I didn't say you can't buy Linux pre-installed, I said you can't go into a big-box store like Best Buy to do so, and that there's no significant consumer support infrastructure.

There's also the strong possibility that at least some of these places won't exist anymore at some time over the lifetime of the computer. Purism is only a few years old, with ~ $1million in revenue/year. It uses its own flavor of Linux, meaning support options are extremely limited. System76's website is itself half-broken, with 500 errors when I attempt to customize a system.

You cannot point to niche operations and claim it to be a viable mass-market option. I'm not saying it isn't possible to get there, I'm saying it doesn't exist today, which means it is not an option for mass-market consumers. If tomorrow a million Apple users said "Enough! LittleSnitch is the straw that breaks the camel's back!" and decided they wanted to shop for a desktop linux system, the market couldn't handle it.

Remember, I'm not saying Linux can't be successful on the desktop, I'm saying that it is not a mass-market option right now for users frustrated with Windows/OS X.

> It uses its own flavor of Linux, meaning support options are extremely limited.

The difference between PureOS and Debian is practically non-existent.

> System76's website is itself half-broken, with 500 errors

OK, it proves that the company is about to die. We of course never see those errors on big websites /s

>If tomorrow a million Apple users said "Enough! LittleSnitch is the straw that breaks the camel's back!" and decided they wanted to shop for a desktop linux system, the market couldn't handle it.

Although it is true, the good news is that such thing just cannot happen. This is not how the market changes. The change is always smooth enough that the companies can adjust. And I am sure Purism and System76 are able to given reasonable time.

> I'm saying that it is not a mass-market option right now for users frustrated with Windows/OS X.

Many (most?) frustrated users on MacOS are those who can use the options I listed. If they understand the problems like the one in the title, they definitely can order a laptop online. Probably also true with Windows. Such changes typically start with geeks anyway (AFAIK geeks switched to MacOS first).

> You cannot point to niche operations and claim it to be a viable mass-market option.

I did not claim that. I suggest that those complaining about users restrictions should go to Linux. Typical users do not complain about such things.

> I didn't say you can't buy Linux pre-installed, I said you can't go into a big-box store like Best Buy to do so, and that there's no significant consumer support infrastructure.

Now you have a point and I actually do not really understand, why I cannot just enter a big shop and ask for a Linux laptop. I actually tried to ask tens of times and they always say there are no. Sounds like a conspiracy by the big labels to me.