I walked past a near identical delivery quad to their TM-Q not an hour ago.
Great to see more manufacturers getting in on micromobility options.
NFS lock and unlock. GPS locator. Capacitance touchscreen controls. Hydraulic disc brakes.
Companion helmet with wirelessly connected brake lights, and noise cancelling(?!) speakers.
Why do we need to learn the same lessons over and over again?
The issue with juicero is that their hardware design was needlessly and insanely over complicated, like magnitudes past anything I’m seeing here - and they DRMd something that didn’t need to be DRMd (juice)
For this bike, those are features people regularly want in e-bikes and cost very little to add - the bike already needs a capable cpu for battery management and acceleration curve controlling.
These are features that people differentiate these pseudo motorcycles on. “We” have learned the lesson.
The helmet is very juicero tho
The only kind of weird thing I see here is the idea the pedals aren't actually directly connected to the drive train, they just turn a generator.
Not for an e-bike it isn't. In fact, I'd say if you're not rocking hydraulic brakes on an e-bike, you're asking for a bad time. I know that most lower end e-bikes don't come with them standard, but to me, it's a necessary and immediate upgrade for safety.
See how it just becomes a bicycle when it's discharged or broken? This is much, much closer to what we expected from the Segway.
Usb-c chargeable at 240W is divinely sweet. Maybe maybe some day dual USB would be nice (for the ER especially) but this is quite respectable. And by not trying to super fast charge the battery will live longer anyhow.
Being removable is another nice win, if not uncommon. I don't know which other batteries provide USB power even without the bike, which again is such a great nice to have: take the bike to a park then bring with an charge some phones or what-not.
In the future I really hope we see some battery alliances, making some form factors, and centralizing on usb-c. As would be good common sense. The overlap between a bike battery and standalone Delta or Ecoflow battery power station is huge, and Rivian here seems a little further along than most at hybridizing & generalizing a battery system: obvious win to anyone paying attention!
The modularity could be a major win too. I'd love to see a an e-bike maker go down the Ford Bronco path & add a bunch of attachments points and replaceable/modular pieces to the design, and release all the specs for free use! Even if it only is Rivian and some partners doing this here, this is the way, it feels like:
> The top frame of the TM-B is modular by design, so the bike can be transformed without tools into a cargo hauler, kid carrier, or cruiser with a bench seat.
Cargo haulers easily climb to the 6000$ ranges. And the massive 180NM motor here will not bat an eye!
One thing I'd love to see: a stationary bike mode. Bring it inside for the winter & do spin class, charging up the battery. The full series hybrid, no mechanical linkage, doesnt deel super super practical to be honest but it's interesting!
A lot of nice basic things that make sense. Like no longer needing special cherging equipment for reasonably good capacity chwrging (albeit most usb-c chargers will only be doing 100w for a while now, but that seems fine).
Unfortunately it seems to be difficult to engineer and build these wheel motors for reliability and longevity. They significanly increase the unsprung mass of the wheel which leads to increased wear on the hub components.
like technically, sure, it's obviously true. but for performance it only really matters when you would get air time with higher mass, and the lower mass stays in contact more. commuter e-biking generally doesn't get anywhere near those speeds or bump-sizes. (trail biking: sure! I 100% believe it's a sizable consideration there)
But yes, other stuff seems to be features for the sake of features.
OTOH, with a battery this big, a generator powered by the pedals, and regen braking this thing has to be heavy. I'd expect it to weigh at least 80 lbs. More likely 100. The fact that their "specs" say nothing about weight suggests they're embarrassed about the weight.
E-bikes can have the motors on the wheel (hub-drive) or on the pedal (mid-drive). This choice is largely related to how much you want your e-bike to really be a scooter or really be providing pedal assist. As a consequence hub-drive e-bikes typically have a throttle while mid-drive do not.
A good mid-drive e-bike really makes it feel like you are a super human cyclist rather than riding a scooter. It leads to a much smoother riding experience if your aim is to still be essentially bicycling but you'd like to get moving faster and not break a sweet even on the most extreme hills.
It's an e-bike. The competition is stiff, better looking, and better priced.
If they're lucky, this will appeal to university professors and over achieving parents of unsuspecting kids who want a cool bike but got an expensive dorky one instead.
That said a GPS locator is great on an e-bike. They're high value theft targets, anything that makes them harder to steal, easier to track, or otherwise reduces the appeal of stealing one is a good thing.
Hydraulic disc brakes are a great thing even on non-electronic bikes. I won't buy another bike without them. My hardtail mountain bike, gravel bike, and e-cruiser are all hydraulic discs.
In an ideal world these would be great features to have, but in the real world, where so many places have a near complete absence of safe cycling infrastructure and bicycles are casually mixed in with giant trucks it's a bit of a scary notion to reduce your situational awareness with a great sound system and the distraction of doing your morning zoom standup while cycling to work (I've done this before lol, tho most of my commute is in separated bike lanes...).
This points to the headwinds to adoption and success of the Also, which is that so many cities are ambivalent and uninterested if not outright ideologically opposed to building safe all ages and abilities bike lanes. That sort of safe infrastructure is critical to the success of a product like this. It's really unfortunate.
Also, the "TM-B Reservation Token" smacks of egregious marketeering.
Still, this looks like a solid ebike.
(Kind of amazed that wireless derailleurs became a thing. Replacing a simple mechanical device with complex tech requiring two batteries)
edit: ask yourself why the median new car in the US sells for over $50k when you can easily find cars for less than half that price.
Materials must be real strong to withstand all the torque forces without a rear triangle, right? Any other e-bikes like this?
Edit: also, don't capacitive screens kinda suck if they get a little wet? like what, you just can't use the screen controls while it's raining without risking unlocking your seat 40,000 times in a half second due to a stray raindrop sitting on the screen? Feels like resistive would explicitly be superior here. You probably don't need huge accuracy for what should ideally be a spacious display anyways.
There's also a maximum power rating of 750 watts for all of these. I'm not sure where the "pedal by wire" feature is from a regulatory perspective, but to me this fits into either class 2 or 3 depending on what option you get.
There are hills near my house that my bike can not make it up without significant pedal assist.
If the motor and power electronics on this e-bike can only handle 750W peak, 500W sustained, as is common and I think is possibly even legislated in parts of the U.S., this bike will not be able to make it up serious hills.
With a normal e-bike, your pedaling is additive to the motor. That is not the case with this design.
It would be nice to have the GPS automatically set the pedal assist max speed when riding on shared paths with pedestrians and people.
I have also seen road bikers on those same shared paths pedal faster than 20mph.
It's worth noting that Hyundai had a similar issue when it entered the US market. It was an uphill battle to market itself to convince people to spend thousands of dollars of money on a no-name car brand.
Also to note, they are very much marketing it as a trail bike in addition to a commuter so it's not surprising they would spend a bit to optimize for ride quality and traction.
[0] (overall specs indicate a lot of weight, Rivian are not proud enough of any lightweighting to even print the weight, and their autos are also very heavy, indicating a lack of lightweight engineering discipline in that shop which may carry over to their other mobility solutions)
I have a bike with an automatic transmission and it handles steep hills just fine.
But generally speaking, I would expect the bike at this price point to have an automatic transmission.
That's not even true for normal bicycles. Serious cyclists can spend massive amounts of cash on their rides.
Aside from that, if you're using this as a vehicle you want more than just the cheapest thing out there. Reliability and serviceability are important when not having the bike means you can't get to work or your kid's school.
This bike seems to have only a single major modular system, but it comprises such a massive part of the bike: there's a big stem-post that attaches to the drive unit. Being able to swap that stem-post out for other things allows for really big changes, imo. You could build some really cool really neat different top-sides atop this bike, with really weird cargo or kid shapes.
I would love to see smaller level modularity too. I'm really impressed by the Bronco, and how they've clearly worked very hard to make it a "car as a platform", opening up as much space as they can for aftermarket parts & 3d printing people to build everything from cup-holders/interior fixing to body-panels (dunno the best link for this, but for ex: https://thebronconation.com/more-bronco-modularity-fender-fl...). I see Rivian / Also tapping that energy here in a way that moves far beyond what bikes today offer.
Critical features: 1. moderate weather protection 2. vastly improved crash protection 3. top speed above 50mph 4. luggage capacity of a small flatbed trailer
I acknowledge the utility of e-bikes for many; for me, I prefer my non-e bike when I want to ride my bike, but would love an e-motorycle as an alternative to 80% of my car trips.
https://www.theautopian.com/bmws-first-scooter-had-a-ridicul...
https://www.bmwmotorcycles.com/en/experience/stories/urban-m...
I love that the popularity of motorcycling is taking off with better batteries, motors, and control systems!
It's motorcycling though :-)
https://old.reddit.com/r/ebikes/comments/1o0qthk/dynagirl_ri...
I just 3d printed protective covers for them last week when marketing turned their back on the new Bambu printer.
I love ebikes and generally like what Rivian does, but in a very competitive market it's hard to see the appeal of this.
I have a big commute and in the (Canadian) winter my old 750Wh was sometimes not up to the task. So I went wildly over the top and built a huge cap battery. I never need to worry now
It seems obviously true to typical racing or distance scenarios. And i notice the wind even at lower speeds on e-bikes in SF.
But between their quad scenario and what I imagine as the urban car replacement scenario it doesn't seem as obvious.
I suspect pedal-by-wire will only be slightly heavier since it doesn't need gears, but the range will probably be even worse.
100kg rider at 15 kph = .24W-h kinetic energy. At this speed there is probably roughly 11N of air and rolling resistance, so the steady state power is about 3W-h per km. If you go 1km between stops, or more, the amount you can expect to gain by regeneration is extremely small. It could perhaps extend your range by 5%, generously.
gears with a chain is more energy efficient.
Most serious bicyclists I know, some with wonderful bikes, still spent less on their bikes than the typical American spends getting the air conditioned seats option in their F-150.
The bike comes with DRM that automatically tracks which location you're in and applies regulations to the controls? Fucking hell.
The only things this seems to have over an electric scooter is larger wheels, a seat, and a cargo rack. It's almost impossible to tell in a time-efficient way though because they really want you to watch their presentation and individually click on each "SEE MORE" button and read each little excerpt one at a time. I'm super annoyed by this website.
Even the most premium possible scooter costs almost $1,000 less than this - Apollo Phantom 2.0 Stellar is $3,649 right now, and goes like 50 MPH, has far less DRM, and so on. No cargo space though.
I'm not sure which pressure sensor you mean, like in the brake lever? E-bikes with hydraulic brakes already have sensors for power cutoff (and in this case for brake lights).
(https://simpsons.fandom.com/wiki/The_Homer)
A classic Simpsons episode!
I don't see how this would be any different. Or, it's certainly not "moronic"
Also, it's AI-generated. Zoom in on the right-most guy in the image. Garbage in, garbage out. Embarrassing garbage quality for an official site.
Class 3 allows pedal assist up to 28 and throttle to 20
https://thecyclistchoice.com/resources/electric-bike-classes...
800 watt hours for $4,500 is absurd too.
I suspect I'll be seeing these around here, soon.
The bike won't fit any of that until there's hot swappable batteries sold everywhere, and when it's dead you'll be pushing it back home.
True, but this bike is completely non-standard so sort of blows that. There isn't even a direct connection between the pedals and the wheels. If the electrical bits stop responding you don't even have a bike, you have a really awkward velocipede. Every other e-bike that I have ridden or seen is still a bike when there is no power.
If I'm understanding the math, maybe that scales the regenerative range extension % by your tolerance for pedaling?
NFC, Near Field Communication.
Because some designer wants to feel good about themselves, better than all who came before.
It'd be interesting to see if/how e-bike laws would evolve if this trend gets bigger (ebikes are already big in big cities like NYC)
Regen on the front wheel would be most effective - but then you've got two motors or a less-than-ideal front motor that adds unsprung weight and has similar traction issues during acceleration as the front unloads.
It's a shame - I think a lot of people want ebikes to work, but they're not as convenient as a pedal bike (especially not in small apartments) and usually they're too heavy to really use in blended pedaling/e-assist mode.
Maybe you pedal the generator on the kickstand for a minute to give it enough charge to operate the electronics, and then away you go working hard like on any other e-bike that's out of charge? I don't see why it couldn't move.
"It features a new pedal-by-wire drivetrain called “DreamRide” developed in-house. The rider pedals a generator, which replenishes the battery,"
So uh, keep peddling?
Yes, the motion->electric->motion circuit is not as efficient as direct pedal but you are explicitly not stranded.
No one is going to do that. It's an electric motorcycle in disguise. Don't even play.
And if anyone said "lets ride motorbikes with pedestrians" they'd be looked at funny.
I'm seeing more near misses each week AND in 20 years I'll be old enough to feel real vulnerable...
Why existing bikes don't use it? Because you need software or a more complicated controller, and the amount of regenerated energy is indeed not that large.
[1] Brussels.
This "revolutionary design" does not offer any significant advantage over the existing systems for e-bikes. A regular e-bike without power is a just a regular bike. You can adapt a regular bike into an e-bike for < $600. Any run-of-the-mill mechanic can figure out how to work on a basic bike. This one will probably require some "certified Rivian expert" to work on it.
Only irrational neomania can justify being interested in this "revolution".
Not even napkin math, but ballpark I would think you're looking at having to pedal about 20-25% harder to accelerate the same rate compared to a chain, with no supplemental energy directed towards charging the battery (though I would assume al the energy goes through the power management system anyways).
However you get some gain in that you don't have to select a gear ratio, and that the electric motor provides torque efficiently at any rpm you can realistically expect on a bicycle. If it has an adaptive resistance level it will probably be more work (energy) but for many non-cyclists feel much more intuitive and simple
When you’re biking, it’s preferable to pedal in “safe” zones (protected bike lanes, trails etc.) while relying on the battery for eg intersections and when sharing the road with vehicles. With a regular bike you have to pedal harder precisely at these zones which makes it a little scary. You can also pedal on fairly flat ground/use all that energy to climb up a steep hill quickly without pedaling etc.
Edit: oh I see above there’s subtle confusion building over the thread that this is a new feature of e-bikes, as of this Rivian marketing. it is not.
science fiction my good dude.
1. https://a2zcalculators.com/science-and-engineering-calculato...
I'm an everyday cyclist and when people ask me for recommendations on bike, I almost always recommend they look at traditional bike brands with e-bikes, rather than pure e-bike brands.
Traditional bike shop level bike brands typically have reputable Bosch or Bafang motors (preferably mid drive, not in the wheels hub)and computers, but the rest of the bike will be mostly standard bike brakes, wheel sizes, derailleurs, chains, hubs etc.
Bring one of those DTC e-bike brands into your local shop and there's probably a 50% chance they'll work on it. Good luck finding replacement parts or getting support from the company with no local prescence.
Look on /r/bikemechanics to see the horror show working on some of these bikes has become.
One of the great things about cycling is that almost anyone can learn to fix and maintain their bike. It's affordable and mostly standardized at this point
It's extremely accessible with YouTube Videos, the Park Tool Blue Book, and bike coops or workshops in most cities. Many local shops are happy to share knowledge with their customers.
The closer your e-bike is to a traditional bike, the better time you'll have in the long run.
For comparison, Seoul bike lanes allow pedal-assist bikes that are limited to 25 km/h and weigh no more than 30 kg (battery included), which seems pretty generous.
That price tag and the way overhyped lead up to it's unveiling combined to kill any chance the Segway had. Dean's (RIP, I think) vision might have had a chance if it wasn't the same price as a lightly used new-to-me Kia Sephia.
At even half the $5000+ price it would have found a lot more adoption. Tourism companies still use the shit out of them and once they start dumping them, I bet they'll be the cool thing to have.
My government says the trigger (accelerator) is bad and made it illegal.
In usage, however, I feel WAY safer being able to accelerate (from standstill) through intersections. I once had a chain break at an inopportune moment while doing that - scary! Now my rear hub motor means there's no danger anymore.
The point I really fell like I left out is that with that size and weight of the bike plus being able to haul 300lbs, the motor and battery combo is rated for 45 miles. Not once have I felt like I needed longer range. It's not that kind of bike. I use it for tooling around while shopping or leisure rides topping out at 35 miles. Even at 35 mile rides, by battery still has plenty remaining as I still heavily rely on my meat motor.
The best description I've seen of using it is "cycling without hills".
The fact that we use the same name for these and "low speed electric motorcycles" is... unfortunate.
The problem is that many other manufacturers have “selectable” class which really is meaningless and doesn’t really tell you what you are buying and often times is really close to a motorcycle. But unlike cars you can easily import bikes that don’t conform to the regulation so many don’t.
If I were buying a bike for my young child I would stick to class 1 or 2.
That means they don't have a throttle which is what a motorcycle or moped has.
You have to pedal to get an assist, this can either be a hub drive or a mid drive motor which have different characteristics (that's another story).
If it's w.r.t. effect of low max power on low cumulative generation, I agree it does seem like a little silly to arbitrage your power generation this way. But maybe the tradeoff is worth it in some circumstances in their view?
Or maybe it's just a low cost addition as other commenters say.
Promo pictures look cringe with metrosexuals riding them on a gravel road.
Cool.
Typical 2020s design trying to appeal to the smartphone/sedentary crowd who know nothing about bikes.
For this kind of money you can get a really nice eMTB like the Mith from UNNO which has 29 inch wheels, weighs 47 lbs (21.3kg) and is a much more capable bike with a 800Wh battery.
https://www.unno.com/en-us/mith
If you don't want classic transmission there are other eMTBs with a Pinion gearbox:
Some of these electric bikes are quite speedy - capable of mixing it up with flowing traffic. So classify them as being motorbikes.
If they can't go that fast, or are "assistive only" (require large fraction of rider pedal input up to a set speed) then legislatively they are a "normal bike".
The thing is, we already have the rules around each style of bike. It's just a classification thing.
Many electric bikes are masquerading and hoping no one looks too closely. So, just look closely. And hold actions responsible.
Note that China, who doesn't have the same regulatory burdens we do, they got rid of pedal assisted e-bikes for their own market long ago because they make the unit more expensive and less functional (or you see pedals on some of them, but they are never used, most people use them with throttles only).
This thing seems totally overengineered by people who never use bikes
Once I put myself onto the bike I don't care all that much whether it's 15lb or 50lb.
That combines with the heavy weight of an ebike, another 50lb+ of cargo in the saddlebags, plus my exceptionally fat ass means I burn through a pair of front brake pads about once a month if I'm running errands most days.
(I've never ridden any kind of e-bike so I don't really know how it works)
I think it's also a social issue right now, there's very little general information provided to bikers (ex - most people don't even know these classifications exist, and can't remember them if they do), and not a large enough chunk of the population is biking yet to get a general consensus on "acceptable" behavior.
Couple that with low enforcement, and it makes sense a fair number of people are just clueless.
---
Just simple things like "bike speed limit" signs on trails/paths would probably help a lot.
I have a class 3 ebike, and I'd still 100% prefer to ride it on a trail with a speed limit of 20mph instead of having trying to mingle with cars on even moderatly busy streets.
The laws should let bikers understand the desired behavior, and allow them to self-regulate.
Especially given that this isn't in the same risk category as larger vehicles (e-bikes are half the weight of mopeds, and 28mph is very different than 45)
Then give folks tickets. They're too useful to go away - we'll get it figured out.
Even a floor of 100W would rule out smaller/less athletic riders.
My gear is that regulatory arbitrage will turn every inch of land that doesn’t have a building into Death Race 2000. Cars are not allowed on sidewalks to protect friends? No problem - here’s an electric motorcycle disguised as a bicycle. Hi
This is more akin to a hybrid car, who's gas engine could generate electricity, but in the case of this e-Bike from Rivian, why would you do that? The electric motor is significantly more powerful than a person's legs, outside of the Pro Peleton.
Watch anyone on a Class 3 ebike: they're not pedaling. The bicycle drivetrain is just there to get around regulations, like having a license.
Rivian isn't known for making hyper-efficient electric vehicles. Rivians are MANLY trucks made to do MANLY truck things, like go fast! and go through tires faster!
There's usually some kind of screw mounts somewhere, different bikes with different geometries need lateral positioning & control & it feels like >50% of the time what comes with the rack doesn't quite work.
It looks like most of these bike seats assume the bike already has some kind of rack installed. If there's already two horizontal bars ready to go then yeah it should be pretty simple to install: the hard parts done.
I feel like this debate over bikes are modular / no they are not is kind of silly. There is some part swapping, and some affixment points, but these come with great inconsistency across bikes and parts. But much more so than that, it feels like there's such a limited of reconfigurability for most bikes. There's the same bike underneath whatever you do, and the number of serious affixment points strongly limits how you can build up.
