Rivian's TM-B electric bike

I tend to agree with comments that point out that 'modern' e-bikes are really electric motor cycles or the original "MoPed" from the 60's. And they have the same appeal, relatively cheap to operate, fit in between regulatory categories, don't require a garage to store, Etc. E-scooters aren't much better (just worse kinematics). That said, I never thought the Segway was ever going to be more than a 'niche' product whereas I had already lived in a city[1] with thousands of mopeds. To the extent they are embraced by urban planners with reduced parking mandates and their own roadways I think they are a net win for cities, when they terrorize pedestrians on sidewalks, not so much.

[1] Brussels.

Mopeds but with crappier seats. Mopeds at least had decently comfortable seats and could seat a passenger —if we’re considering normal BMI folks.

Adjusted for inflation the Segway would be close to $10,000 today after taxes.

That price tag and the way overhyped lead up to it's unveiling combined to kill any chance the Segway had. Dean's (RIP, I think) vision might have had a chance if it wasn't the same price as a lightly used new-to-me Kia Sephia.

At even half the $5000+ price it would have found a lot more adoption. Tourism companies still use the shit out of them and once they start dumping them, I bet they'll be the cool thing to have.

There are plenty of modern ebikes that are just bikes with a motor. I have one of these for instance (well, the previous generation): https://ride1up.com/product/roadster-v3/

The best description I've seen of using it is "cycling without hills".

The fact that we use the same name for these and "low speed electric motorcycles" is... unfortunate.

I think that the Class 1 and Class 2 and Class 3 regulations when properly followed tell you what you are getting. Since this is Class 3, it really is close to a Moped and has a lot more restrictions depending on your area similar to a motorcycle but still allowed on city streets without insurance in most places in the USA, but often has restrictions in parks etc.

The problem is that many other manufacturers have “selectable” class which really is meaningless and doesn’t really tell you what you are buying and often times is really close to a motorcycle. But unlike cars you can easily import bikes that don’t conform to the regulation so many don’t.

If I were buying a bike for my young child I would stick to class 1 or 2.

Dean Kamen is still kicking

It depends on what you mean with an e-bike, most e-bikes are pedelecs.

That means they don't have a throttle which is what a motorcycle or moped has.

You have to pedal to get an assist, this can either be a hub drive or a mid drive motor which have different characteristics (that's another story).

Moped seats are for sitting, bike seats are for pedaling.

They're not worse, they're different because they need to be.

It's Woodie Flowers who passed away

Are people going to pedal on these things? Mopeds could also be pedalled if stalled -unlike scooters. I mean, sure, I know their form factor is that of a bike --but its locomotion is more similar to that of a e-moped. Unfortunately with very lousy seats. At moped and these ebike speeds you want better seating.

Probably thinking of Jimi Heselden who bought the Segway company and died driving a Segway

Source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jimi_Heselden

Yes. There are e-bikes that look like motorcycles or mopeds that can be pedaled, but are uncomfortable, and there are e-bikes that look vespa style scooters that have pedals but it's completely impractical to pedal them - the pedal operation is there to qualify under specific requirements to be classified as an e-bike.

> most e-bikes are pedelecs

I think the "most" is overstated; I've been shopping for a year or two, and most of the ones I see have throttles.

Must be an American thing? I have never even seen anything else than pedelecs.

I agree, the classifications are pretty solid when followed and I'm with you on class 2 being the right pick for most people - But I'd argue they're too complicated.

I think it's also a social issue right now, there's very little general information provided to bikers (ex - most people don't even know these classifications exist, and can't remember them if they do), and not a large enough chunk of the population is biking yet to get a general consensus on "acceptable" behavior.

Couple that with low enforcement, and it makes sense a fair number of people are just clueless.

---

Just simple things like "bike speed limit" signs on trails/paths would probably help a lot.

I have a class 3 ebike, and I'd still 100% prefer to ride it on a trail with a speed limit of 20mph instead of having trying to mingle with cars on even moderatly busy streets.

The laws should let bikers understand the desired behavior, and allow them to self-regulate.

Especially given that this isn't in the same risk category as larger vehicles (e-bikes are half the weight of mopeds, and 28mph is very different than 45)

Then give folks tickets. They're too useful to go away - we'll get it figured out.

I think the MPH limit for ebike classification makes sense. But why do they need a 750W limit? Whats the harm in a motor putting out 3000W to get a loaded cargo bike up a steep hill at 8 MPH.

My opinion is been that 747’s, cars, trucks, bikes, E bikes, an even pedestrians should be regulated on kinetic energy - basically their ability to do harm to others.

My fear is that without it, regulatory arbitrage will turn every inch of land that doesn’t have a building into Death Race 2000. Cars are not allowed on sidewalks to protect friends? No problem - here’s an electric motorcycle disguised as a bicycle. Hi

I see lots of "sit down" electric fat bikes; they're all throttle assist. Many of the smaller wheeled models are as well.

The comments you are agreeing with: there's a lot about mopeds and drivetrains and Class 1/3, and yet nobody sees that this piece of shit doesn't even have fenders?

The one thing about e-bikes that I don't get is: why the chain?

https://www.voromotors.com/products/emove-roadrunner-v3-seat...

This thing has 500W hub motors, no expensive derailleur, no chain to maintain, just tires and brakes. The hub motors have internal gearing. I love mine for getting around LA.

Torque, electric motors need gearboxes just like everything else

Yes, the bikes in the pictures do not have fenders. However, if you look at the press coverage, there are lots of studs on the frame for adding everything from cargo racks to front pannier wine bottle holders. That makes me unwilling to dismiss it out of hand. It is pretty clear that for this launch they were going for a 'look' and no doubt some designer at Also chose what configurations they would show.

My daily rider is a Trek Verve 2 (not electric) which Trek has a 'beauty shot'[1] of which features it without fenders. That said, mine has fenders because I don't like getting muddy water thrown up my back when I go through a puddle.

So my take here is that yes, this is a rather 'bougie' e-bike with pretentious design presentations, but if the engineers did their job correctly I expect you'll be able to equip it with fenders and other gear that you find essential on something you ride.

[1] https://media.trekbikes.com/image/upload/w_1200/Verve2Disc_2...

That thing you linked to is not a bike, it's a motorcycle. It should be licensed, taxed and insured like one.

That isn't a bicycle. It's a scooter.

This doesn't address the question "why a chain" though.

Many motorcycles have grunty torque, gearboxes, and no chain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Shaft_drive_motorcycl...

The BMW R 100GS Paris Dakar was the bee's knees for crossing the Tanimi Desert: https://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/bmw/bmw-r100gs-pd-89...