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461 points axelfontaine | 199 comments | | HN request time: 2.62s | source | bottom
1. vesinisa ◴[] No.44039149[source]
Here's a much better article from the Finnish public broadcaster giving more context: https://yle.fi/a/74-20161606

My comments:

The important thing to note that at this point it's just a political posturing and an announcement of intent. They haven't shown any concrete technical plan how this would actually be executed.

> "Of course, we are very pragmatic and realistic, we cannot do this in five years. Planning will continue until the end of the decade, and maybe in 2032 we can start construction."

Once they have the cost estimates and effects on existing rail traffic studied, I bet construction will never start.

replies(10): >>44039465 #>>44039611 #>>44039693 #>>44039743 #>>44039754 #>>44039771 #>>44039846 #>>44040123 #>>44040743 #>>44045724 #
2. Vinnl ◴[] No.44039465[source]
To be fair, if we imagine a future in which this did happen, the start would also look like this, so who knows.
3. cladopa ◴[] No.44039611[source]
>Once they have the cost estimates and effects on existing rail traffic studied, I bet construction will never start.

It is not that hard. Countries like Spain have already two different gauges and have the necessary technology in the trains to change between different systems.

replies(2): >>44039699 #>>44044508 #
4. WesolyKubeczek ◴[] No.44039693[source]
Or they will start with a few of the most important lines that connect the countries and ports.
replies(1): >>44039825 #
5. varsketiz ◴[] No.44039699[source]
One of the main goals of this is to not have the russian gauge available in case russians attack, so that logistics deeper into Finland cant happen easily with the same train, so backwards compatability is not desired.
replies(4): >>44039773 #>>44039786 #>>44039826 #>>44042602 #
6. oblio ◴[] No.44039743[source]
Fear of a foreign invasion by a country much larger than your, and one that occupied you once for 200 years and attacked you again just 20 years after independence tends to clear the mind.
replies(3): >>44039797 #>>44039837 #>>44040258 #
7. tarvaina ◴[] No.44039754[source]
Also it is one party (The Finns) presenting a rail initiative competing with their government partner's (National Coalition) older initiative. It is very unlikely that they both will be implemented.
8. dotancohen ◴[] No.44039771[source]
Underestimating the Finns' ability to just get stuff done seems to be a common motif throughout history.
9. potato3732842 ◴[] No.44039773{3}[source]
It's not like this results in a categorical difference in difficulty. Gauge switching infrastructure is common at borders. Yeah stopping and switching is slower than driving right through but it's not the end of the world in the long tail of military logistics.
replies(4): >>44039822 #>>44039942 #>>44040261 #>>44041645 #
10. dotancohen ◴[] No.44039786{3}[source]
But if the Spanish can muster dual gauge trains, what's to prevent the Russians from doing the same? Or is the Finnish gauge a state secret?
replies(3): >>44039817 #>>44040027 #>>44042017 #
11. dotancohen ◴[] No.44039797[source]
Crazy thing is, I don't live in Finland yet this description could describe our situation almost identically as well. And I can think of yet _another_ place on Earth with a similar situation.
12. theshrike79 ◴[] No.44039817{4}[source]
The difference between Finnish and Russian gauge is 4mm

IIRC the diff to European standard is closer to 10cm, still doable but a hurdle compared to just driving a trainload of troops to the middle of Helsinki it's a bit harder

replies(2): >>44039863 #>>44040176 #
13. theshrike79 ◴[] No.44039822{4}[source]
Russian military logistics _heavily_ depend on trains, everything that can go on a train, does so. Flight and vehicle stuff is mostly an afterthought.

Any hindrance we can put on the Finnish-Russian border to stop them just unloading 12 cars of fresh troops in the middle of the country is a good thing.

replies(1): >>44039892 #
14. theshrike79 ◴[] No.44039825[source]
That was the plan, one rail that can go from somewhere in Finland all the way to central Europe without stopping to change rail gauges.
replies(1): >>44040208 #
15. adrianmsmith ◴[] No.44039826{3}[source]
> One of the main goals of this is to not have the russian gauge available in case russians attack

This doesn't seem like it can be a goal given

> maybe in 2032 we can start construction

I mean unless the plan is to assume Russia won't attack until e.g. 2040 when construction will be complete && Russia can't implement multi-gauge trains that Spain is already using now?

replies(2): >>44039871 #>>44039939 #
16. pydry ◴[] No.44039837[source]
Fear of foreign invasion is also why the Soviet Union invaded during the Winter War ("Greater Finland" irredentism was a thing, and St Petersburg was militarily exposed).

Fear is why Finland allied with the Nazis.

Fear is why the Soviet Union also signed a pact with the Nazis and invaded Ukraine.

It's easy to justify anything with fear.

replies(3): >>44039987 #>>44040114 #>>44041011 #
17. zokier ◴[] No.44039846[source]
There is one reason for optimism here: Finnish rail network is in quite poor shape and needs major work done anyways. So switching gauge allows funneling more EU funding into these projects that would need to be done either way. I imagine that e.g. the infamous Suomi-rata and ELSA projects will be revived as gauge switch.
replies(2): >>44040119 #>>44041164 #
18. dotancohen ◴[] No.44039863{5}[source]

  > The difference between Finnish and Russian gauge is 4mm
What is the acceptable tolerance? It doesn't sound like a huge engineering effort to design a boogie compatible with both without requiring switching.
replies(3): >>44040020 #>>44040037 #>>44042875 #
19. kibwen ◴[] No.44039871{4}[source]
Even if Russia's conquest of Ukraine were to end tomorrow, they would take a few years to recover before mounting their next offensive. And Finland isn't first in line on their list of next invasion targets, that would be either Georgia, Moldova, or the Baltics.

And in any case, just as in computer security, a security posture does not need to be unassailable, it just needs to be expensive enough to deter the enemy. NATO countries (well, the ones that haven't already been compromised by Russia) will be happy to fund the gauge switch, as would the EU in general for the sake of greater economic integration. Meanwhile, it increases the costs on Russia and slows their advance. It's a win no matter what.

replies(4): >>44040023 #>>44040234 #>>44042369 #>>44049253 #
20. paddy_m ◴[] No.44039892{5}[source]
Another fun note about Russian logistics, they aren't palletized or mechanized. Thought being that cranes don't look good in parades. The train side seems smart or at least interesting, the pallets incredibly dumb.

https://x.com/TrentTelenko/status/1507056013245128716

replies(3): >>44040393 #>>44040490 #>>44040957 #
21. vintermann ◴[] No.44039939{4}[source]
Like most such things, it's probably mostly symbolic, so politicians can say they're doing something in defiance of Russia (which is a very popular thing to do in Finland right now, or most of the west for that matter). I guess they'll back down on it when by 2032, everyone realizes it doesn't matter since wars will be fought with small autonomous drones and any railroad would be sabotaged in an instant.
replies(1): >>44040140 #
22. kibwen ◴[] No.44039942{4}[source]
Gauge switching requires trains outfitted with specialized axles (increasing the cost to invade), requires trains to stop (increasing the train's vulnerability to attack), and requires switching stations which themselves are juicy targets and can't be repaired nearly as trivially as an ordinary length of rail.
23. StefanBatory ◴[] No.44039987{3}[source]
Fear is why Finland allied with the Nazis.

... or maybe because Fins got invaded by Soviets.

replies(2): >>44040586 #>>44044245 #
24. anticensor ◴[] No.44040020{6}[source]
Yes, the acceptable tolerance is -4mm+7mm.
replies(1): >>44041154 #
25. vintermann ◴[] No.44040023{5}[source]
Russia can't just attack anywhere it wants to. Putin is not Kim Il-sung, he can't count on any order to be blindly obeyed. It took years of propaganda, unfortunately armed with a couple of actually good points (mostly supplied by the neonazi nationalist wing in Ukraine, who wanted a war), before he could try actually invading. He had to walk a dangerous game with his own, in particular with his own neonazi supporter Prigozhin, who could easily have come up on top in their inevitable conflict.

He's absolutely not harmless, but neither should we allow ourselves to be distracted by phony countermeasures against the Russian threat, like this gauge shift thing clearly is in my opinion.

replies(2): >>44040233 #>>44040676 #
26. bell-cot ◴[] No.44040027{4}[source]
> what's to prevent

Conceptually? Nothing.

But building such trains, at scale, takes a load of resources. Resources which could otherwise be used to build tanks, guns, missiles, and similar high-priority products.

replies(2): >>44040830 #>>44049250 #
27. CapitalistCartr ◴[] No.44040037{6}[source]
Train tracks are normally not precise to within 4mm anyway, and wheels are wide enough to tolerate that.
replies(1): >>44041068 #
28. oblio ◴[] No.44040114{3}[source]
One is the biggest country on the planet, with 150 million people.

The other one is about 300 sqkm with 5 million people.

When in doubt, use basic logic.

Your argument is the same as Iraq being a realistic threat against the US.

Also, list of Russian neighbors not threatened or invaded by Russia:

Belarus (pushed into a sort of union state)

China (too big)

Japan (I think)

Mongolia (I think)

Azerbaijan (I think)

List of neighbors threatened or invaded by Russia:

Ukraine

Georgia

Moldova (Transnistria occupied since 1991)

Estonia

Latvia

Lithuania

Finland

Poland

replies(3): >>44040357 #>>44040423 #>>44041166 #
29. ljlolel ◴[] No.44040119[source]
And would deter Russian invasion (supply lines rule everything around me) which would significantly reduce their large military spending.
replies(2): >>44040158 #>>44040190 #
30. sbuttgereit ◴[] No.44040123[source]
On the other hand....

"Unification to standard gauge on May 31 – June 1, 1886 [United States]

In 1886, the southern railroads agreed to coordinate changing gauge on all their tracks. After considerable debate and planning, most of the southern rail network was converted from 5 ft (1,524 mm) gauge to 4 ft 9 in (1,448 mm) gauge, then the standard of the Pennsylvania Railroad, over two days beginning on Monday, May 31, 1886. Over a period of 36 hours, tens of thousands of workers pulled the spikes from the west rail of all the broad gauge lines in the South, moved them 3 in (76 mm) east and spiked them back in place.[6] The new gauge was close enough that standard gauge equipment could run on it without problem. By June 1886, all major railroads in North America, an estimated 11,500 miles (18,500 km), were using approximately the same gauge. To facilitate the change, the inside spikes had been hammered into place at the new gauge in advance of the change. Rolling stock was altered to fit the new gauge at shops and rendezvous points throughout the South. The final conversion to true standard gauge took place gradually as part of routine track maintenance.[6] Now, the only broad-gauge rail tracks in the United States are on some city transit systems."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Track_gauge_in_the_United_Stat...

replies(7): >>44040226 #>>44041022 #>>44041027 #>>44042299 #>>44042678 #>>44043266 #>>44043312 #
31. Retric ◴[] No.44040140{5}[source]
What kind of ranges are you expecting from these small drones so logistics suddenly doesn’t matter? Even if something can hypothetically travel thousands of miles, designing disposable weapons with that kind of range has a real cost.
replies(1): >>44040284 #
32. JumpCrisscross ◴[] No.44040158{3}[source]
> would deter Russian invasion

Does Russia still own a lot of 5-foot rolling stock? (Genuine question.) That’s what Finland is on [1].

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_ft_and_1520_mm_gauge_railw...

replies(1): >>44040369 #
33. T-A ◴[] No.44040176{5}[source]
First sentence from the article: The Finnish government has announced the conversion of its rail network from Russian gauge (1,524 mm) to European standard (1,435 mm).

1524 - 1435 = 89

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_ft_and_1520_mm_gauge_railway...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard-gauge_railway

replies(1): >>44043745 #
34. FpUser ◴[] No.44040190{3}[source]
Now you owe me a coffee and a keyboard
replies(1): >>44042385 #
35. WesolyKubeczek ◴[] No.44040208{3}[source]
See also: Rail Baltica

These projects are sloooooooow

36. Gravityloss ◴[] No.44040226[source]
Amazing.

I wonder if one can do anything like this with the current concrete sleepers and thermite welded tracks.

replies(4): >>44040576 #>>44041523 #>>44041895 #>>44042531 #
37. kibwen ◴[] No.44040233{6}[source]
As you suggest, Russia's invasion of Ukraine was bolstered by Russian sympathizers in the east. Every country bordering Russia is incentivized to break free of any sort of alignment with Russia in order to reduce the threat of local insurgency which will aid Russia in its invasion. For example, the Baltic countries removing Russian from their list of official languages, in addition to decoupling from the Russian power grid. There are a lot of steps to be taken, and a lot of them will take decades. Fortunately, Russia's capacity to wage war measured against their number of potential targets means that it would take them decades to reconquer it all, assuming Europe steps up to fund the defense. Train gauge alignment is just one of many steps towards this end, and the sooner the better.
replies(2): >>44040431 #>>44040561 #
38. FpUser ◴[] No.44040234{5}[source]
>"Meanwhile, it increases the costs on Russia and slows their advance. It's a win no matter what."

Following logic it also increases your own costs and wastes money that could've been allocated to produce weapons and other more effective preventive measures.

replies(2): >>44040604 #>>44041406 #
39. usrusr ◴[] No.44040258[source]
My only surprise is that they haven't already converted. It's not just about military aspects of an invasion, it's also about ease of deportation and ethnic substitution that would have to be expected afterwards in case of a Russian victory. That pattern is all too clearly established.
40. stuaxo ◴[] No.44040261{4}[source]
It adds time for each train though.
41. vintermann ◴[] No.44040284{6}[source]
Sure, logistics matter. I'm sure Russian-gauge railroads in Finland would be mildly convenient for invading Sweden, provided you can first invade and utterly defeat Finland quickly enough that the railways survive.

But if Putin could do that (he can't), railway gauges would be the least of our worries.

replies(1): >>44041073 #
42. pydry ◴[] No.44040357{4}[source]
>Your argument is the same as Iraq being a realistic threat against the US.

Your argument appears to be that your enemy's fear driven by losing 27 million people during an invasion/war of extermination is exactly equivalent to your country's fear of weapons that were imagined solely for the purposes of justifying an invasion.

My argument was that it is quite easy to get a domestic population to treat all of the enemy's legitimate fears as utterly irrelevant while treating bullshit domestic fears as existential.

In a way I think you helped make this point for me by forgetting about those 27 million deaths.

replies(2): >>44040897 #>>44045903 #
43. jabl ◴[] No.44040369{4}[source]
There's enough tolerance that you can run 1520mm rolling stock on 1524mm track and vice versa.
44. jabl ◴[] No.44040393{6}[source]
Why invest in forklifts, container infrastructure etc. if your military has a near-endless supply of uneducated conscripts you can order to shuffle around shells and other items?

(Of course a more thorough analysis would probably come to the conclusion that better logistics is worth it. There's still an opportunity cost for those conscripts who could do something else instead, like dying in zerg rushes on the Ukrainian front. And even though those conscripts are 'free' they still require chow and a place to sleep etc.)

replies(1): >>44040658 #
45. pixelesque ◴[] No.44040423{4}[source]
> The other one is about 300 sqkm with 5 million people.

You've missed a few significant figures there, Finland's area is: 338145 km2

46. vintermann ◴[] No.44040431{7}[source]
The anti-Russian policies in the Baltics are dumb, they provide Putin with a good point to use in his propaganda, which is infinitely more useful to him than any railroad on foreign soil.

He's co-opting the red army's defeat of Nazi Germany for his own popularity purposes. Which is impressive, considering he's also disavowing communism. It would hardly have been possible, if it weren't for fringe (but not fringe enough) movements in Eastern Europe playing along with it. Not because they're pro-Russian, far from it, but because their old nationalist groups often were aligned with the nazis, and they want to rehabilitate them. Putin and these groups totally agree that the conflict should be framed as being between Russia and these groups.

replies(2): >>44040569 #>>44040880 #
47. kranke155 ◴[] No.44040490{6}[source]
This is a debunked post I think.
replies(2): >>44040675 #>>44041356 #
48. rmind ◴[] No.44040561{7}[source]
"Removing Russian from their list of official languages"? It was never an official language in the first place.
replies(1): >>44040848 #
49. kibwen ◴[] No.44040569{8}[source]
> The anti-Russian policies in the Baltics are dumb, they provide Putin with a good point to use in his propaganda

This is dangerously naive. Propagandists like Putin don't need real grievances, they're happy to invent grievances and brainwash the population into believing them. In light of this fact, there's zero downside and nonzero upside to decouple from Russia (at least for any state which intends to remain independent) which makes it a no-brainer.

replies(2): >>44040748 #>>44049262 #
50. IAmBroom ◴[] No.44040576{3}[source]
The welds could be cut and rewelded, obviously.

The sleepers are molded with preset widths, however, and would need replacement.

replies(2): >>44040633 #>>44040961 #
51. pydry ◴[] No.44040586{4}[source]
They didnt stop being allied to the Nazis after the winter war was over. Fear maintained that alliance.

Just like fear of "greater finland" made the Soviets invade in the first place.

It's fear all the way down. The only difference is the validity of those fears. Obviously your country's enemies' fears were always invalid while your country's allies' fears were always justified.

replies(2): >>44041006 #>>44045979 #
52. kibwen ◴[] No.44040604{6}[source]
Fortunately, a country can pursue many things simultaneously, which is often more generally effective than pursuing a single thing to the detriment of all others, thanks to diminishing returns.
replies(1): >>44040826 #
53. close04 ◴[] No.44040633{4}[source]
Probably the biggest challenge is that there is way more rail traffic today and it's more tightly coupled in logistics chains and people's day to day lives. Disruptions are more expensive and harder to tolerate. And that's on top of the technical challenges, tolerances leave less room for error today.
replies(1): >>44040870 #
54. smallstepforman ◴[] No.44040658{7}[source]
“ endless supply of uneducated conscripts “

Now you’re just being silly.

replies(1): >>44041197 #
55. IAmBroom ◴[] No.44040675{7}[source]
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1507056013245128716.html

Your cite?

56. anonymars ◴[] No.44040676{6}[source]
I think this overstates the challenges, especially given the last 10+ years of despots doing things they shouldn't just be able to do. Waking up one day to find that the US has invaded Canada is now a non-negligible possibility.

I think they are up to the challenge of whipping up some BS casus belli and scaring would-be protesters into submission.

57. mimsee ◴[] No.44040743[source]
The costs were already studied in 2023 and were deemed cost ineffective[0]. The report contained three main strategies (VE1, VE2, VE3) with A & B plans for the first two. Costs would be in the range of 10-15+ billion with 15-20+ years allocated for construction time[1, p. 47].

[0]: https://valtioneuvosto.fi/en/-/1410829/report-shows-that-cha...

[1]: https://api.hankeikkuna.fi/asiakirjat/697c1f25-332b-40ed-9d6...

replies(1): >>44041240 #
58. vintermann ◴[] No.44040748{9}[source]
What you're really saying here, is that Russians are fundamentally different people than you, because they fall for any dumb propaganda, whereas you don't.

Or maybe you accept that you are human too, vulnerable to the same thing, and maybe you are the brainwashed one, but you don't care?

Going down either of these roads ends you up with the neonazis in the long run (and yes, Russia has a lot of them too).

So no, it's not naive to point out the good points that feed the propaganda. What's naive is to think that dictators can manufacture good propaganda out of thin air anyway so it doesn't matter what "our side" is guilty of.

Putin is a gangster, not a cult leader. He's in it for himself, the people around him are in it for themselves. No one thinks he's selfless, least of all regular Russian people. It takes effort to keep something like that together. Unfortunately, he gets help from his foreign enemies.

replies(1): >>44042205 #
59. FpUser ◴[] No.44040826{7}[source]
>"...than pursuing a single thing..."

Where did I say about single thing: "...weapons and other more effective preventive measures..."

Looking from the other angle - should Russia attack it'll trigger article 5. Russia can not win conventional war with NATO. It is just laughable. They're not that suicidal. And if they are it'll escalate to nuclear and then the railroad will be your last worry.

replies(2): >>44042029 #>>44042222 #
60. IAmBroom ◴[] No.44040830{5}[source]
Also:

> what's to prevent

Russian lack of logistical planning.

61. IAmBroom ◴[] No.44040848{8}[source]
In the distant past of the 1990s, it was.
replies(2): >>44041441 #>>44045812 #
62. shaftoe ◴[] No.44040870{5}[source]
(US centric assumption)

It might be easier to change today than it was in 1886. Back then, trains were really the only means of travel between cities. Today, there are less passenger trains than back then, though more freight (even with trucks and planes). But freight diversions/delays could be scheduled well in advance and have alternative means. Not to mention, since then we've developed variable gauge train tech. A subset of trains could run during the cutover.

It's likely more costly today, but less disruptive.

replies(2): >>44041309 #>>44041742 #
63. StefanBatory ◴[] No.44040897{5}[source]
It's such a mystery why all neighbours of Russia hate Russia and Russians.

If only there was a reason for this.

replies(3): >>44042364 #>>44043123 #>>44051022 #
64. theshrike79 ◴[] No.44040957{6}[source]
Compare this to the completely bonkers logistics of the US Military: https://youtu.be/iIpPuJ_r8Xg

Even Unicef has a massive logistics center in Denmark with pallets of stuff categorised and ready to be sent for any emergency: https://www.unicef.org/supply/warehousing-and-distribution

replies(1): >>44045057 #
65. Gravityloss ◴[] No.44040961{4}[source]
Since it's only 90 mm, I wonder if one could add some sort of a 45 mm lateral adapter between the rails and the ties on both sides. At least for low speed track parts...
66. mopsi ◴[] No.44041006{5}[source]
> Just like fear of "greater finland" made the Soviets invade in the first place.

And the fear of Poland made the Nazis invade Poland, right?

Their propaganda no doubt presented things this way, but that was far from the truth. Much like Nazis had to stage a Polish attack on German radio station[1] to justify their invasion of Poland, the USSR had to fabricate the shelling of Mainila[2] to justify the invasion of Finland, because neither Poland nor Finland were apparently threatening enough on their own.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shelling_of_Mainila

replies(1): >>44041629 #
67. mazurnification ◴[] No.44041011{3}[source]
No, fear is not why Soviet Union allayed with Nazis. Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact was agreement in which Nazis and Soviets divided central/eastern Europe between them. They even had join parade after conquering Poland in Brest (Brześć). And yes, they ware allied.
replies(1): >>44042284 #
68. PaulRobinson ◴[] No.44041022[source]
An impressive feat, that is unlikely unachievable on a modern train network.

The tolerances are just a bit tighter, the risks and liabilities are higher, and the workforce just isn't "there" - this is from a time when rail was a huge money earner and could afford to employ a huge number of people. Today? Not so much, pretty much anywhere in the World.

replies(3): >>44042014 #>>44043526 #>>44044058 #
69. iggldiggl ◴[] No.44041068{7}[source]
> Train tracks are normally not precise to within 4mm anyway

Yes they are. Of course practical tolerances including allowances for wear and there are large enough that things can be made to work, but in terms of nominal construction tolerances for example, 4 mm can easily eat up all your construction tolerances or even exceed them.

replies(1): >>44042334 #
70. Retric ◴[] No.44041073{7}[source]
So the drone bit was a non sequitur.

As to railways surviving it’s relatively difficult to effectively destroy rail infrastructure. Making the call to cripple your internal infrastructure is tough especially in such a dire situation, it’s also a really large target. Taking out some strategic bridges is easier but most local issues can be quickly fixed when you talking million men armies.

71. iggldiggl ◴[] No.44041154{7}[source]
Where? Finland specifically, or elsewhere? Both my local tram system in Germany as well as DB as the national infrastructure operator in Germany have construction tolerances of only +/- 2 mm. Maintenance tolerances on the other hand can be quite a bit larger, at least in the plus direction (on the order of 15/20/25 mm).
replies(4): >>44042295 #>>44043270 #>>44047593 #>>44049136 #
72. logifail ◴[] No.44041164[source]
> funneling more EU funding

I'm sure EU taxpayers will be presented with a solid business case demonstrating value for money before our €billions are spent on a project such as this.

Oh, wait, this is the EU.

Most likely a deal would be thrashed out between key players via Whatsapp but that "due to their ephemeral nature"[0] we aren't entitled to read any of their messages.

[0] see https://www.politico.eu/article/pfizergate-ursula-von-der-le...

73. ◴[] No.44041166{4}[source]
74. bluGill ◴[] No.44041197{8}[source]
Regardless of how much education they have - they are treated as uneducated.
75. Gravityloss ◴[] No.44041240[source]
I agree that a new line at least from Tornio to Oulu would make sense. There's also a lot of heavy industry in the Gulf of Bothnia, like Raahe and Kokkola.
76. MyPasswordSucks ◴[] No.44041309{6}[source]
Passenger travel is easy mode. The economic consequences of disrupted freight dwarf anything you could imagine from disrupted passenger travel of equal duration. That's why the US has always strived to do a really, really good job with their freight rail system, and US freight is still to this day generally considered the best freight rail system in the world, even as passenger rail lags well behind.

Remember that freight is more than just moving pallets of finished goods to Amazon warehouses. It doesn't matter if you've given the cows a month's advance notice, if they don't have feed they're still going to starve; and no matter how many KPIs you dangle at the silos, they're only going to hold x amount of reserve grain.

replies(1): >>44041704 #
77. celticninja ◴[] No.44041356{7}[source]
i dont believe it is.
replies(1): >>44045022 #
78. celticninja ◴[] No.44041406{6}[source]
there are economic benefits to closer integration with the EU that the weapons would not provide.
79. nradov ◴[] No.44041441{9}[source]
Right, under Soviet military occupation.
replies(2): >>44041460 #>>44042041 #
80. hollerith ◴[] No.44041460{10}[source]
There was no military occupation of Finland in the 1990s.
replies(1): >>44042420 #
81. phkahler ◴[] No.44041523{3}[source]
Imagine one short "train" whose tail is able to pull up one rail of the track behind it. Then another train whose front is an automated thingamajig to take the loose rail and nail it down a specific distance from the fixed rail. How much play there is in the loose rail depends on how far apart these two train are. Notice that the nailer runs on the narrow rails while the nail-puller runs on the wide ones.
82. pydry ◴[] No.44041629{6}[source]
No. The closest living analog to the Nazis today is our allies in Israel and like the Nazis they arent shy about endless expansionism for the sake of creating lebensraum for their ubermensch. Theyre not very shy about the holocaust theyre committing either.

Russia never went on an extermination drive in order to create an ethnically pure ethnostate.

The biggest western geopolitical mistake of the 2020s is assuming that Israel isnt run by Nazis but Russia is.

>Their propaganda no doubt presented things this way

Every country presents its propaganda in its own way. Pointing that a country that you consider an enemy publishes propaganda without reference to your own serves merely to underscore that accident of birth dictates which flavor of propaganda you believe.

replies(2): >>44045909 #>>44051074 #
83. phkahler ◴[] No.44041645{4}[source]
And if you're Russia wanting to invade Europe, it's better to do the Gauge switching right near your own border rather than on the far side of Finland. So while this may make it harder to invade Finland, it makes it easier to invade Europe as a whole.
replies(3): >>44041783 #>>44041903 #>>44041987 #
84. AlotOfReading ◴[] No.44041704{7}[source]
Any competent shipper facing a train issue will just put the load on semis instead for 3-10x the price. Freight rail mainly exists as an low cost bulk carrier of convenience these days. Ships outcompete rail for bulk goods along inland waterways, and semis outcompete rail for network volume, ease of delivery, and adaptability to constraints.
replies(5): >>44042309 #>>44042523 #>>44042729 #>>44043814 #>>44050237 #
85. Reason077 ◴[] No.44041742{6}[source]
> "Today, there are less passenger trains than back then"

I don't think this is true in Europe. Certainly in the UK, passenger rail volume since the 2010s has set records higher than in any previous years, exceeding numbers that were last seen before WW2. Today there are fewer miles of track than there were in that era, but modern signalling technology allows more trains to operate safely on the same tracks, and modern trains run much faster on average.

As for freight, the US actually moves a significantly greater portion of its freight by rail than Europe does. Rail has around 40% modal share for freight in the US vs only 17% in Europe. One reason for this is that in Europe many lines are congested with passenger traffic, leaving few slots for freight trains to operate - except late at night.

replies(2): >>44042843 #>>44044211 #
86. dcow ◴[] No.44041783{5}[source]
This. I am struggling to see how this is anything other than posturing by politicians. It’s hard to imagine this is strategy devised by military leaders.
87. Cthulhu_ ◴[] No.44041895{3}[source]
Probably not, but laying track or replacing sleepers is a very satisfying to look at, fully automated process.
88. gbear605 ◴[] No.44041903{5}[source]
The far side of Finland? That’s the Baltic Sea. Sure, there’s a little bit of Sweden, but it’s so far north that there isn’t much rail infrastructure there - certainly little enough that it could quickly be destroyed at the beginning of a war.
replies(2): >>44044357 #>>44044740 #
89. Cthulhu_ ◴[] No.44041987{5}[source]
The objective they try to achieve is not to slow down Russia's invasion into Europe, but to stop them at the border by being able to move assets throughout Europe relatively quickly. If they gain a proper foothold and full access to "euro gauge" rails, it's a different fight.

Of course, if it does go that far, tanks and trains can move rolling stock, rip up the tracks, blow up bridges and other infrastructure behind them if they're forced to retreat.

90. hedora ◴[] No.44042014{3}[source]
In the US, rail tolerances seem to be getting looser over time, and derailments are still uncommon.

I’d guess that overseas modern non-high speed trains could deal with it. The passengers might not put up with it though.

replies(3): >>44046042 #>>44050272 #>>44095161 #
91. Cthulhu_ ◴[] No.44042017{4}[source]
It's less about what the Russians can do and more about how fast European and NATO countries can move assets to a potential invasion front line; as it stands, they're slowed down at the borders needing to switch to the different gauges.
92. wbl ◴[] No.44042029{8}[source]
Russia can however win the US dithering, western Europe being scared of cruise missile strikes while their propagandists ask if it's worth dying for a few little towns.

We need to have resolve!

93. wbl ◴[] No.44042041{10}[source]
"Do you have Russian soldiers in Finland?" "Yes, hundreds of thousands" "Where are they stationed?" "Along the border, six feet deep".
94. jcranmer ◴[] No.44042205{10}[source]
> What you're really saying here, is that Russians are fundamentally different people than you, because they fall for any dumb propaganda, whereas you don't.

No, I don't read that at all. There's plenty of Russian propaganda that Westerners have fallen for hook, line, and sinker, chief among them the idea that all Russian speakers are actually Russian and want to be a part of the Russia.

The point is that the propagandists don't need to base their propaganda on truth. A salient historical example here is actually World War II: the Germans tried to provoke Poland into overreacting and causing a major incident in Danzig to justify their invasion of Poland. The Poles refused to play ball, so when the appointed hour came, the Germans made up some atrocity and used it as the basis of the declaration of war, faking the evidence early in the invasion. Given that Russia has already used a similar pretext regarding Russian speakers in Ukraine, it's not a surprise that the Baltics are nervous about Russia doing the exact some thing with regards to Russian speakers in their territories.

replies(1): >>44045966 #
95. kibwen ◴[] No.44042222{8}[source]
> Russia can not win conventional war with NATO

Without the US Navy, NATO loses any war in the Baltic Sea. If Putin thinks the US won't respect Article 5, then he'll attack anyway. And if the US Navy is annihilated in a war against China, he'll attack anyway. Finland needs all the separation from Russia it can get.

96. lazide ◴[] No.44042244{3}[source]
'86, in the south? Let's not be racist and assume the labor was Chinese - surely it was 95% recently freed black slaves paid almost nothing + 'free' prison labor. (/s, a little).
replies(1): >>44042367 #
97. pydry ◴[] No.44042284{4}[source]
They were fighting Japan at the time, were unable to fight a war on two fronts and Britain had at that point chosen to follow a strategy of appeasement towards the Nazis.

And your idea is that they had zero reason to fear invasion from the west? Even though that is precisely what happened just a few years later?

replies(1): >>44045546 #
98. lazide ◴[] No.44042295{8}[source]
Sure, but thats Germans. I'm surprised it isn't specc'd in 10ths.
replies(1): >>44043744 #
99. metadat ◴[] No.44042299[source]
Corresponding discussion:

The Days They Changed the Gauge (1966) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8371773 (2014, 15 comments)

And a related discussion:

Why BART uses a nonstandard broad gauge - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32031131 (2022, 253 comments)

The BART discussion was where I first learned about the North American 2-day gauge change. A truly inspiring feat for so many engineers to come together across such a large amount of land area to Make It Happen.

100. franktankbank ◴[] No.44042309{8}[source]
I see several trains go by per day on my pretty sleepy tracks. You have no clue the amount of semis that would need to be built to accommodate your proposal, they just do not wait in the wings. Do you think all the bulk shipments are being done for fun and someone isn't waiting for 5000 gallons of HCL and 2000 tons of coal?
replies(1): >>44042630 #
101. sidewndr46 ◴[] No.44042334{8}[source]
I obviously don't have a in depth knowledge of Finnish rail, but have you ever looked at rail in the US? I can show you tracks with completely missing ties. Tracks that move vertically by a foot when the train goes over them. Tracks that visually snake all over the place. The difference is made by slowing down the train. Derailment at 3 mph rarely matters. The biggest risk is the conductor doesn't know it happened & continues to drag the car along the tracks
replies(1): >>44042801 #
102. lazide ◴[] No.44042364{6}[source]
Experience.
103. firesteelrain ◴[] No.44042367{4}[source]
This was 20 years after the Civil War. It consisted mostly of skilled and semi-skilled workers laborers that were White, African American and other immigrant labor. Chinese laborers were mostly concentrated in the West not the South. The reconstruction of the southern rail network involved many people who were part of the Southern economy and employment structure at that time
replies(2): >>44042681 #>>44043204 #
104. sidewndr46 ◴[] No.44042369{5}[source]
Given the disaster that is the Ukrainian invasion, this doesn't really hold true. As long as leadership is OK with a total logistical clusterfuck, you don't need to worry about "years to recover" for your next offensive. The next offensive starts today. You can figure out the details as you go.
105. ◴[] No.44042385{4}[source]
106. nradov ◴[] No.44042420{11}[source]
A was referring to the Baltic countries, as per the comment from @kibwen above.
replies(1): >>44043094 #
107. culopatin ◴[] No.44042523{8}[source]
Assuming an unlimited supply of semis and drivers to fit the demand. With limited supply big companies will be able to a compete for the available trucks at really high prices but small-mid businesses will be left out.
replies(2): >>44042668 #>>44043583 #
108. gosub100 ◴[] No.44042531{3}[source]
Even the wooden sleepers would have to be weakened by moving the spikes over. Unless the old holes were patched.
109. culopatin ◴[] No.44042602{3}[source]
Wouldn’t it be simpler to make a “train moat” by disconnecting rails from Russia? Or would they run the trains on dirt for a mile and re attach?
replies(1): >>44042755 #
110. AlotOfReading ◴[] No.44042630{9}[source]
I'm well aware that it's a couple hundred trucks to replace a single train. I'm not sure you understand that this is what already happens. Rail carries around a quarter of freight ton-miles in the US. Trucks carry much more than that. All of the stuff that isn't bulk, time insensitive freight, or anything that surges in excess of the carefully scheduled rail capacity already has to spill over onto trucks. That includes things like disaster recovery shipments, unusual seasonal demand, and so on. There's also a population of truckers that work these temporary jobs, as well as a certain level of excess vehicle capacity in the fleet carriers to service it, plus whatever truckers can be pulled from other work to meet the demand.

Anyone looking at massive losses will pay the sticker shock to put it on trucks. Anyone who can afford to shut down instead will wait. That's the system working as intended.

replies(1): >>44042786 #
111. AlotOfReading ◴[] No.44042668{9}[source]
Small-mid businesses generally are not shipping on rail to begin with, unless they've been bundled as part of a larger shipment by an intermodal carrier. If you've ever tried to talk to a rail carrier, they really don't want to deal with companies under a certain size.
112. noelrock ◴[] No.44042678[source]
So odd - was listening to an account of this in an Audiobook just yesterday - "Why Nothing Works" by Marc Dunkelman. Was essentially making the point that this sort of thing would be several magnitudes of difficulty harder to pull off today, and certainly wouldn't happen within that timeframe.
113. lazide ◴[] No.44042681{5}[source]
I believe that’s what I said.
replies(1): >>44042749 #
114. bobthepanda ◴[] No.44042729{8}[source]
This is not as true in the US where domestic shipping is subject to the expenses of the Jones Act.
115. firesteelrain ◴[] No.44042749{6}[source]
"'86, in the south? Let's not be racist and assume the labor was Chinese - surely it was 95% recently freed black slaves paid almost nothing + 'free' prison labor. (/s, a little)."

It's not what you said

replies(1): >>44048820 #
116. bobthepanda ◴[] No.44042755{4}[source]
Building temporary bridges in wartime is pretty normal.
117. franktankbank ◴[] No.44042786{10}[source]
Thanks for the response. I'm curious what percent of stuff that would normally end up on train ends up as spillover onto trucks. Any idea? I think stuff is quite finetuned already and there may only be an extra few percent of capacity in trucks. I agree, in a lot of cases it might work to just bite the bullet and wait or try a different apparatus. However the stuff on the trains typically is not slackable. That is, you aren't transporting computers and sofas via rail.
118. iggldiggl ◴[] No.44042801{9}[source]
Sure, but even in the US that infrastructure state is usually only found on minor branch lines (shortlines), not on the main lines.
119. jabl ◴[] No.44042843{7}[source]
> As for freight, the US actually moves a significantly greater portion of its freight by rail than Europe does. Rail has around 40% modal share for freight in the US vs only 17% in Europe. One reason for this is that in Europe many lines are congested with passenger traffic, leaving few slots for freight trains to operate - except late at night.

It's also that rail tends to be more competitive for long haul traffic, and the US operators have big trans-continental freight networks well suited to that. In Europe there's a sharp drop off in modal share as freight crosses borders. Each national railway operator is in practice fiercely protective of its own turf, and there are a lot of hurdles to overcome. So in practice cross-border freight is largely done with trucks instead.

Despite the EU commission wanting to get some competition going on the rails and better interoperability requirements etc etc. for at least the past 30 years, the operators are still in the "discussion about preparing to setup a committee to discuss interoperability" phase.

120. orthoxerox ◴[] No.44042875{6}[source]
There used to be a St.Pete-Helsinki high-speed train before the war, Allegro. It was built with bogies for a 1522mm gauge.
121. hollerith ◴[] No.44043094{12}[source]
Sorry, my bad.
122. pydry ◴[] No.44043123{6}[source]
I can name about 8 who dont. The rest all belong to or tried to join a military bloc which helped rape Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan for no particular reason other than because the gang boss demanded it.

It's more of mystery why particular kinds of westerners are especially sanctimonious about Moscow while bending over backwards to excuse nearly identical behavior from the west.

replies(1): >>44045992 #
123. rz2k ◴[] No.44043204{5}[source]
1886 is after The Compromise of 1877 which ended Reconstruction and lead to the rise of largely white supremacist Redeemer governments.

Though versions of the Convict Lease System had started earlier, even before the Civil War, it was in full force by 1886 and even accounted for a significant portion of many states’ annual revenue.

The supply of this labor was dramatically influenced by new laws that were selectively enforced, such as vagrancy laws that might apply to anyone traveling without immediate proof that they had an employer, “pig laws” that made petty thefts often convicted with poor standards of proof subject to extended prison sentences, and in some cases offenses like “mischief” and “insulting gestures”. There were even people who were impressed into this system as a result of violating the terms of a labor contract, which possibly becomes even more difficult to distinguish from slavery.

If you were caught up in this system, you were virtually powerless. Federal troops were long gone, there were instances of lawfully elected governments that had been overthrown by insurrection, and if you exposed the absurdity of this system and threatened it, you could easily be publicly lynched with no chance of repercussions for your murderers.

replies(1): >>44046225 #
124. nayuki ◴[] No.44043266[source]
> Now, the only broad-gauge rail tracks in the United States are on some city transit systems.

One such oddball is the TTC subway/streetcar gauge of 1495 mm in Toronto, Canada. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto-gauge_railways

replies(1): >>44050430 #
125. ◴[] No.44043270{8}[source]
126. dehrmann ◴[] No.44043312[source]
Makes it even crazier that Bart would choose a non-standard gauge 75 years later. And now they're stuck paying for custom trains with less flexibility and longer lead times.
replies(1): >>44044250 #
127. Suppafly ◴[] No.44043526{3}[source]
>The tolerances are just a bit tighter, the risks and liabilities are higher, and the workforce just isn't "there"

Sure, but they do it with big machines that ride down the rails now instead of lining up thousands of men with sledge hammers.

replies(1): >>44044138 #
128. Suppafly ◴[] No.44043583{9}[source]
>Assuming an unlimited supply of semis and drivers to fit the demand.

If the US really wanted to get it done, they could involve the army and various state national guards. They have tons of trained semi and heavy truck drivers, way more than most people would assume. Most states also have tons of trained drivers for their massive snow plows and highway repair trucks and stuff. The only thing stopping these massive projects is money and lack of imagination.

129. anticensor ◴[] No.44043744{9}[source]
They should've specced 1435mm±410µm, with no broadening at curves.
130. ta1243 ◴[] No.44043745{6}[source]
So "closer to 10cm" then

Clearly not "doable", without guage changing bogies.

replies(1): >>44047627 #
131. MyPasswordSucks ◴[] No.44043814{8}[source]
> Any competent shipper facing a train issue will just put the load on semis instead for 3-10x the price.

Did you not see how the markets recently reacted to certain components merely doubling in cost due to tariffs? In what world do you live in where the agricultural margins are high enough that the cattle ranchers can just casually absorb a threefold cost increase? Clearly they're eating the loss, because if they passed those costs onwards in the chain there'd certainly be huge economic consequences, as I said, and you wouldn't have felt the need to try and correct my premise. Anyway, I'd like to visit this world of yours, though only if you'd be buying the meals.

> Freight rail mainly exists as an low cost bulk carrier of convenience these days.

This is what happens when one tries to create a narrative from DoT statistics.

The reason why rail freight tonnage is less than truck tonnage is long-haul vs short-haul. You deliver lumber from the timber yard to the finishing facility once. That's rail. You don't load up trucks with semi-finished logs on an industrial scale, you don't load them with coal, you don't load them with industrial quantities of gravel or sand or steel either.

Once you have the logs processed into boards, then you use trucks to carry those boards to various short-haul destinations, where some of the boards are further processed into fence pickets and bird houses and old-timey sign posts that Roadrunner can inadvertently spin around so Wile E ends up taking a completely wrong turn. All of that stuff then goes to storefronts and warehouses (also short-haul) and as a result, the short-haul tonnage can count twice, three times, or even more, depending on just how many steps are being taken between "tree" and "birdhouse".

> Ships outcompete rail for bulk goods along inland waterways

Which is great along inland waterways, but if you're not located along them, you're probably using rail to get the bulk goods to the shipyard.

replies(1): >>44044510 #
132. mschuster91 ◴[] No.44044058{3}[source]
> this is from a time when rail was a huge money earner and could afford to employ a huge number of people.

Well, back then the US had freshly banned slavery, so there was an ample workforce that could be hired for dirt cheap.

The Soviets and the Wehrmacht pulled off similar feats in WW2, but back then the rails and sleepers didn't have to be built to last many decades, so in addition to loads upon loads of forced labor from concentration camps and gulags, the work effort was massively reduced because easier technology could be used.

133. crote ◴[] No.44044138{4}[source]
There are no ready-made gauge changing machines, though. Not exactly a big market for those.
replies(4): >>44045002 #>>44046492 #>>44049220 #>>44052942 #
134. crote ◴[] No.44044211{7}[source]
> As for freight, the US actually moves a significantly greater portion of its freight by rail than Europe does. Rail has around 40% modal share for freight in the US vs only 17% in Europe.

Europe also has far more freight-friendly waterways. US rail is designed for dirt-cheap bulk transport for things like coal and grain. In most of Europe that's done by barge - but US geography doesn't really allow for that.

135. euroderf ◴[] No.44044245{4}[source]
When speaking to Americans, I explain the wartime co-operation between Finland and Germany as, "The enemy of my enemy is not necessarily my 'friend', but we can do business."
replies(1): >>44046238 #
136. wbl ◴[] No.44044250{3}[source]
BART was always going to need custom trains for other reasons beyond track gauge. Electric third rail at those speeds isn't standard. 125kV pantagraph would mean big expensive tunnels and stations due to clearance requirements.
replies(3): >>44044775 #>>44047340 #>>44058216 #
137. andreasmetsala ◴[] No.44044357{6}[source]
If the supply line is blown up at the beginning of the war then what was the point of switching gauges.
138. qingcharles ◴[] No.44044508[source]
Always loved going over the border from France as a kid and they would lift the whole train up and slide the old wheels out and put the new ones in and off you go!
139. AlotOfReading ◴[] No.44044510{9}[source]
Feel free to look up the ton-mile by distance numbers. Rail exceeds trucks by fairly narrow margins only for hauls between 1,000-2,000 miles. Below that distance, trucks dominate. Above that distance, trucks also dominate. Even in that band, it's like a narrow difference of like 35% vs 40%.

Note that the inverse situation is common at west coast ports, with short haul rail lines running to intermodal facilities so things can be loaded onto trucks for long haul. The cost of transloading to domestic containers often dominates keeping it on rails.

> The reason why rail freight tonnage is less than truck tonnage is long-haul vs short-haul. You deliver lumber from the timber yard to the finishing facility once. That's rail. You don't load up trucks with semi-finished logs on an industrial scale, you don't load them with coal, you don't load them with industrial quantities of gravel or sand or steel either.

Around here the timber arrives at the railyard by truck and aggregates are usually mined and transported locally, which is truck heavy. Grain is also majority truck these days from the BTS stats I can see, but basic materials isn't my industry.

Regardless, ton-miles aren't doubled counted. It's one ton, transported one mile. If rail took freight that extra distance, it'd get the same share (subject to all the usual caveats of industry numbers).

140. dmurray ◴[] No.44044740{6}[source]
The stated reason for the gauge change is "to remove technical obstacles to transporting troops and goods between Finland, Sweden and Norway".

Those few connections in the sparse north of the country are the entire point.

141. badc0ffee ◴[] No.44044775{4}[source]
Electric third rail at 130 km/h? The LIRR does it, with standard gauge: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Island_Rail_Road

I also don't know where you're getting 125kV from. Many trains throughout the world use 25kV, especially high-speed ones (actually high speed, like 200+km/h), but BART uses 1000V, which is closer to a typical subway system.

142. wkat4242 ◴[] No.44045002{5}[source]
Once Spain and Portugal move from Iberian gauge that market will increase a lot. Which is kinda inevitable with the added environmental pressure on flights.
replies(1): >>44056740 #
143. paddy_m ◴[] No.44045022{8}[source]
Trent and a lot of Ukranian war commentators have a habit of saying $X is catastrophic for the Russians (this is the worst on YouTube). Then those catastrophic things don't come to pass.

Related, I have seen one guy, over and over say "Why isn't Ukraine hitting Russian electric train transformer stations". I don't have a good answer, most of Russia's rail network is electric, transformers blow up easily, there are many of them, and they would be very slow to replace. Ukraine clearly has deep strike capabilities, and Russia cant defend every transformer. I don't think it's a humanitarian issue, or at this point even an issue with the US telling Ukraine they can't hit those targets.

replies(2): >>44045082 #>>44045545 #
144. wkat4242 ◴[] No.44045057{7}[source]
Well yes but the US usually fights in faraway places to bring freedom (though the only thing they manage to 'liberate' is oil, see how Afghanistan and Iraq turned into hellholes as soon as they turned their backs)

Russia just likes to kill the shit out of their neighbours which is a lot easier logistically.

replies(1): >>44049126 #
145. wkat4242 ◴[] No.44045082{9}[source]
Transformers are not very hard to replace or make though. All they are is some copper wound around iron. It will just be some added frustration and annoyance for them but no gamechanger. If they start doing it a lot Russia will just build a bigger electrical workforce and more backstock. They have plenty of people and the authorianism to make them do whatever they want. It's just a pissing contest. Russia did lots of cyberattacks on the Ukrainian electrical network in the years before the invasion. Didn't do anything either but send a message.

I would compare it to the Natanz cyber attack which reportedly cost a fortune and caused lots of business losses around the world. It only set the Iranian uranium refinement back a few percent.

Then Obama comes and talks to them, strikes a deal. That solved the issue entirely and cost much less. Of course then Trump comes and messes it all up again but that's another story.

replies(2): >>44045566 #>>44046252 #
146. celticninja ◴[] No.44045545{9}[source]
Yeah sure, but it doesn't take away from the fact that the Russians do not use pallets for logistics and therefore struggle with logistics as a result.

So I stand by my statement that his assessment is not wrong, even if it isn't as outcome changing as some may hope. It is however one of the many straws heaped upon the camel's back.

As for the transformer issue, I would imagine that these are somewhat related. Their train based logistics are inefficient, so Ukraine doesn't need to stop the trains running. If they did the russians may find a more efficient solution.

replies(1): >>44046201 #
147. mazurnification ◴[] No.44045546{5}[source]
First of all this were USSR-Japan skirmishes not war, second they did not have to worry about Japan as was shown by Soviet–Japanese Neutrality Pact of April 1941, third if they were worried about Japan then "spending" army on invasion of Poland, Finland, Baltics, Bessarabia were counter productive, fourthly at the time of Ribentrop Molotov pact Britain ceased following appeasement strategy as shown by declaring war to Germany at 3-rd of September 1939 as fulfillment of security guarantees given to Poland in March of 1939.

It is totally ahistoric to pin any actions of USSR on fear or just reaction to external events. If WWII was continuation of WWI (in my and many opinion it was) both Germany and USRR were revanchist powers that wanted to reverse outcome of WWI. Many forgot that Russia later USSR lost WWI badly. Plus Stalin after very, very, bloody consolidation of power in 30ties was ready (in fact it was imperative for regime stability) to start outward aggression/expansion.

Furthermore historian believe that Stalin knew that confrontation w/ Germany is inevitable but (more popular opinion) was estimating it will happen one year later at least or (less popular, even fringe opinion) was amassing forces to attack Germany and was cough by Nazis w/ "pants down". Either scenario would be explanation for initial successes of Operation Barbarossa.

Fun fact - last train with grain from USSR to Germany crossed border few minutes before start of Operation Barbarossa.

In summary - Soviets and Nazis were allies till 1941 - both parties know it was tactical alliance not unlike USSR - GB/USA against Germany and at the very end Japan. Note that after WWII there was cold war between former allies - not unlike like hot war between former alliance parties of Nazis and Soviets.

Second fun fact: Orwell's "oceania was always at war with eastasia" from 1984 is direct reference to how alliances were changing during WWII.

replies(1): >>44049815 #
148. celticninja ◴[] No.44045566{10}[source]
Do you mean stuxnet? That was a cyber attack, natanz was a blackout caused by a blast/explosion IIRC.
replies(1): >>44050428 #
149. dang ◴[] No.44045724[source]
Ok, we've changed to that URL from https://www.trenvista.net/en/news/rnhs/finland-migration-sta... above. Thanks!
150. rmind ◴[] No.44045812{9}[source]
It was the case during the Soviet occupation and briefly during the transitional period, but otherwise - no, it wasn't. For example, in 1990, Latvia simply restored its 1922 constitution (still in effect today, although with some amendments) which enacted Latvian as the sole official language. This has also been the case with Lithuanian and Estonian constitutions, respectively.
151. oblio ◴[] No.44045903{5}[source]
Which 27 million deaths? Finland never had 27 million inhabitants.
replies(1): >>44053799 #
152. oblio ◴[] No.44045909{7}[source]
> Russia never went on an extermination drive in order to create an ethnically pure ethnostate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circassian_genocide

153. vintermann ◴[] No.44045966{11}[source]
> No, I don't read that at all. There's plenty of Russian propaganda that Westerners have fallen for hook, line, and sinker, chief among them the idea that all Russian speakers are actually Russian and want to be a part of the Russia.

Oh yeah, other westerners, but not you. You take the foreign policy think tank line that Russians actually want to be balkanized. Just after saying that Putin has succeeded in brainwashing the population to go along with whatever he wants without need for excuses based on good points.

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154. oblio ◴[] No.44045979{5}[source]
> Just like fear of "greater finland" made the Soviets invade in the first place.

Which "fear" prompted the Soviets to invade Romania in 1940? Which "fear" prompted the Soviets to invade Poland in 1939? Which "fear" prompted the Soviets to invade the Baltics in 1940?

Ah, now I remember, the "fear" of not being the premier colonial power.

155. oblio ◴[] No.44045992{7}[source]
> The rest all belong to or tried to join a military bloc which helped rape Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan for no particular reason other than because the gang boss demanded it.

Quick essay for 20 points, those countries all decided to join NATO BEFORE Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan.

WHY did they decide to try to join NATO? Who were they running away from and why?

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156. fuddy ◴[] No.44046042{4}[source]
A country that would put up with US rail is a big ask.
157. paddy_m ◴[] No.44046201{10}[source]
Crippling the Russian train system would be very much worth it. Russia would have to switch to limited diesel locomotives, and it would really hurt regular civilian logistics in those areas.
158. firesteelrain ◴[] No.44046225{6}[source]
Ah yes, the 'absurdity' of enforcing laws and contracts; how dare a post-war society try to reestablish order without the constant supervision of federal troops. And of course, 'insulting gestures' clearly the backbone of any sinister system of oppression. It's amazing anything functioned at all without a daily constitutional check-in from the moral high ground
replies(1): >>44049644 #
159. yencabulator ◴[] No.44046238{5}[source]
I'd go with "Otherwise they would have attacked us also, and we definitely couldn't afford a war on two fronts."
160. paddy_m ◴[] No.44046252{10}[source]
Russia is importing shells from North Korea. Transformers are more complex than you give them credit for, and Russia has a very limited ability to manufacture anything, it would make a difference.
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161. reaperducer ◴[] No.44046492{5}[source]
There are no ready-made gauge changing machines, though. Not exactly a big market for those.

So what? I'd there isn't a machine, you build one.

Large industries like mining and shipping and the military don't just stop because they can't buy a needed item off the shelf because there isn't a market for it. They build stuff all the time.

I worked in a factory for a few years, and can tell you that if industries followed your "can't do" attitude, commerce would stop.

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162. jcranmer ◴[] No.44047122{12}[source]
Given the ample reporting of Russian speakers in places like Odesa switching to speaking in Ukrainian as a result of the 2022 invasion to distance themselves from Russia, or the difficulty the Russian occupiers of Ukraine has had in finding people willing to work for them, or the fact that the current president of Ukraine is himself a Russian-speaking Ukrainian, or the fact that in the 1991 referendum, a majority of people in every Ukrainian oblast (including Crimea!) supported being a part of Ukraine rather than Russia, I don't think it's that hard to say what the general appetite of Russian-speaking Ukrainians becoming part of Russia is.

Or, to use an analogy with a different language, Putin's argument is akin to saying that a majority of Irishman want to be a part of England, because they speak English.

Don't confuse language for cultural identity.

(And, FWIW, I have fallen for this propaganda in the past; I've just been successfully educated since then as to why the simplistic linguistic map is fundamentally the wrong way to look at the conflict.)

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163. fanf2 ◴[] No.44047340{4}[source]
Third rail lines south of London often run at 90mph and up to 100mph in places. BART’s top speed is 80mph.
164. ◴[] No.44047593{8}[source]
165. eqvinox ◴[] No.44047627{7}[source]
The really annoying thing is that it's too close for "simple" dual gauge rails (e.g. 1435 + 1000); 1435 + 1524 is possible and in fact exists (e.g. the one single SE-FI railway bridge that exists is dual guage: https://openrailwaymap.org/?style=gauge&lat=65.8273204537081...), but AFAIK it's expensive because the mounts interfere and need to be quite custom.
replies(1): >>44049902 #
166. owenversteeg ◴[] No.44047690{6}[source]
Yeah, in theory, but the vibes are different.

Let’s say you have a problem and the only way to solve it is with a thingamabob. The thingamabob doesn’t exist, so you need to make the first one. Unknown to everyone, the military, the O&G/mining industry, and the rail industries all try to build one at the same time. Do you think they all cost the same? What about the time to design and build them?

The oil and gas people will call up some machinists and engineers the same day. Time is money and they need the problem solved. It doesn’t need to look pretty. I don’t think anyone would disagree that they would be the first with a thingamabob. First one might break, they’d get Bob on a Cessna from the nearest machine shop with a replacement.

The military would have some meetings, which would spawn more meetings, and eventually put out some requests for proposals. They’d review the proposals and ten years later they’d have their thingamabob. No doubt it would be the most expensive.

The rail industry… the modern, passenger rail industry in wealthy western countries? There might be proposals, or designs or prototypes with large amounts of money spent, but I think it is reasonable to say the thingamabob would never actually be built and used. Look at CAHSR or Stuttgart 21 or Turin-Lyon.

167. lazide ◴[] No.44048820{7}[source]
I’m pretty sure that’s exactly what I said, actually.

[https://www.train-museum.org/2019/02/18/black-railroad-jobs/]

Which part do you think I didn’t?

replies(1): >>44050356 #
168. theshrike79 ◴[] No.44049126{8}[source]
And when most of their neighbours historically use the same rail gauge, it's a lot easier too :D
169. theshrike79 ◴[] No.44049136{8}[source]
I just wish the Germans would be as accurate with their train schedules as they are with their rail gauge tolerances :D
170. mikewarot ◴[] No.44049220{5}[source]
There are ready-made machines that pull up track, and replace sleepers... it shouldn't be a major project to allow it to change the gauge of the rail as it resets it.
171. int_19h ◴[] No.44049250{5}[source]
I would also imagine that large-scale retrofitting of traincars with variable gauge adaptations is something that would be hard for foreign intelligence services (including the Finnish one to miss) - and would then serve as a signal that Russia is indeed preparing for an invasion.
172. int_19h ◴[] No.44049253{5}[source]
> that would be either Georgia, Moldova, or the Baltics.

Or Kazakstan, although China might object there.

173. int_19h ◴[] No.44049262{9}[source]
Said brainwashing can still be more or less effective depending on how much material it can build upon.

More importantly, though, it can only be effectively applied on Russian territory, while real grievances among minority Russian populations in other countries can be exploited into fifth-columnizing them.

174. pydry ◴[] No.44049606{8}[source]
The promise to Ukraine was that they are going to be protected by their chosen gang rather than be cynically used to try and take down a rival gang.

The lie was laid bare once they were actually attacked. Article 5 protections - the only reason they are fighting this war - came off the table as soon as it became clear that the rival gang wasn't going to be taken down.

Quick essay for 30 points: write to a grieving mother campaigining against gangs explaining why even though her son joined the crips for protection and got murdered by a blood in the initiation phase, she needs to STFU about kids staying out of gangs. The reason is simple: she needs to STFU because several other 14 year olds who joined the crips for the promise of protection haven't yet had that promise tested.

replies(1): >>44049918 #
175. lazide ◴[] No.44049644{7}[source]
Those do-gooder Yankees and their war of northern oppression, amiright? (/s)
176. int_19h ◴[] No.44049646{13}[source]
But, similarly, don't confuse cultural identity with political one. That is really the crux of the issue here - self-identifying as Ukrainian or as Russian is very much a political question in Ukraine, and has been since their independence. This is also why you have this weird situation where several prominent Ukrainian military commanders and politicians have close direct relatives in Russia who are pro-war politicians there and who often were themselves born in Ukraine (or, conversely, the Ukrainian ones were born in Russia). So somebody may be Russian not just linguistically but culturally and ethnically as well, be born and raised in Russia, and still self-identify as Ukrainian today and speak the language solely as a marker of their chosen affiliation. And because it is a political identity in those cases, it can be very fluid - i.e. those very same people might be ones who have voted for Yanukovich 15 years ago precisely because he was seen as pro-Russian-language.

Ironically, this war will probably end up doing more to truly hammer out a single cohesive Ukrainian nation out of all the ethnic Russians in Ukraine than all the efforts of Ukrainian nationalists before it - assuming that Russia loses the war, that is.

177. pydry ◴[] No.44049815{6}[source]
>First of all this were USSR-Japan skirmishes not war, second they did not have to worry about Japan as was shown by Soviet–Japanese Neutrality Pact of April 1941

...two years after Molotov Ribbentrop.

If they had nothing to worry about Japan it logically follows that they had nothing to worry about Hitler either as was shown by the Molotov Ribbentrop pact.

In 1939 the Soviet military was a disaster, also. It's difficult to overstate just how exposed they were.

>Furthermore historian believe that Stalin knew that confrontation w/ Germany is inevitable

They were right to be afraid.

>In summary - Soviets and Nazis were allies till 1941 -

In summary, out of fear which was entirely legitimate. Fun fact: the only difference between them and Finland is that Finland gets excused for allying to Hitler out of fear by its western allies.

178. ta1243 ◴[] No.44049902{8}[source]
That bridge is 4-rail, not 3-rail

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torne_River_Railway_Bridge#/me...

Even if you were to 4-rail every line, you'd potentially run into loading gauge issues (you would have to offset the current centre of the bogies, go too far one way and you collide with platforms, too far the other way and you collide with oncoming trains)

replies(1): >>44050308 #
179. oblio ◴[] No.44049918{9}[source]
Ukraine wasn't in NATO and NATO members Baltics have not been attacked, even though they're a lot smaller and more vulnerable

The Western alliance is doing some horrible things worldwide, but your point of view regarding Eastern Europe is horribly mistaken. I'm fairly sure you have no idea what you're talking about, and you're probably not from there. I'd basically classify you as a tankie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie

I'm doubly going to classify you as a tankie as you're dodging the question of WHO Eastern Europe was running from (and WHY).

Also another quick essay for 40 points: who has voluntarily joined Russian led alliances (except for Armenia, which is currently reconsidering its life choices).

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180. red_admiral ◴[] No.44050223{6}[source]
Switzerland has some for narrow (meter) gauge to standard gauge. I think it's to make the Glacier Express run without changing train. Had a bit of teething problems at the start but seems to be working well now.

That's not a "change gauge for a 100-wagon freight train" scale operation, and it's not "off the shelf" tech, but we're fairly close I think?

181. red_admiral ◴[] No.44050237{8}[source]
I was told a while ago "trains are great if you want to move a trainload of stuff, trucks are great if you want to move a few truckloads of stuff". I guess trains also need loading/unloading facilities and stations close to your origin and destination, and perhaps a hump yard somewhere.

Cargo ships beat everything hands down if there's a port close to your origin and destination, and lots of water in between.

182. panick21_ ◴[] No.44050272{4}[source]
Derailments are incredibly common in the US.
183. eqvinox ◴[] No.44050308{9}[source]
Bleh, but kinda confirms my point too. I do think there are some 3-rail setups in other border regions though? I should check… then again it doesn't matter that much if it's 3 or 4.

As for the loading gauge, yes, of course. On the plus side, this is Finland, most of the lines is in the middle of nowhere and single track even. Maybe the best option for them is to just build 1435 in parallel whereever possible, and just merge where not otherwise practical (bridges, tunnels, populated areas & stations). I don't even think it's that infeasible considering Finland's layout. I'd wager there are only a handful of specific locations that need expensive work.

184. firesteelrain ◴[] No.44050356{8}[source]
I made a more nuanced and historically grounded point, whereas your post was a sarcastic oversimplification. So no — you didn't say what I said. I emphasized the diversity and complexity of postbellum labor in the South; you gave a glib summary that oversimplifies it as mostly “recently freed black slaves paid almost nothing + ‘free’ prison labor.”
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185. wkat4242 ◴[] No.44050428{11}[source]
Natanz was the site of the facility targeted by stuxnet.

https://www.nti.org/education-center/facilities/natanz-enric...

186. earnestinger ◴[] No.44050430{3}[source]
Does it imply that, Toronto finally is one of United States cities with broad gauge rail tracks?
187. earnestinger ◴[] No.44050545{11}[source]
Logical explanation, there are better alternative targets. (Supply of deep strike is finite, one must prioritise)
188. lazide ◴[] No.44050932{9}[source]
Your point is flat out misrepresenting the situation. Especially by listing White workers first. At that time, the only white workers in the south who would have been moving rail and driving spikes would have been on a prison work detail or in a similar severely legally compromised situation. Even getting white workers to couple cars didn’t happen until much later.
replies(1): >>44056237 #
189. earnestinger ◴[] No.44051022{6}[source]
Hate? No.

Wary? Yes.

Seems Necessary given current circumstances.

(After peace comes, and enough time passes, someday, we will be friends again)

190. earnestinger ◴[] No.44051074{7}[source]
> Russia never went on an extermination drive in order to create an ethnically pure ethnostate.

Technically correct is the best kind of correct.

replies(1): >>44055082 #
191. Suppafly ◴[] No.44052942{5}[source]
>There are no ready-made gauge changing machines, though. Not exactly a big market for those.

I'm not a train guy, but I'm pretty sure the machine that lifts the track up and allows them to swap out the ties is like 95% of what would be needed for a gauge changing machine.

192. pydry ◴[] No.44053692{10}[source]
Ironically this slur is only ever used by imperialists who support the empire they live under.

If we were having this argument inside the Soviet Union in 1968 you'd be calling me different slurs for an identical reason - because I wouldnt have supported sending the tanks into czechoslovakia. and you would, coz your calculus is "my empire justified, other empire unjustified".

This isnt any different to when I was called a Tankie in 2003 coz I didnt want to send the tanks in to Baghdad by people who accused me of being pro Saddam.

You apparently dont have the capacity to see pacifism, only traitors.

193. pydry ◴[] No.44053799{6}[source]
The Soviet Union lost 27 million people in WW2. It was a minor detail you swept under the carpet in your comment.
194. pydry ◴[] No.44055082{8}[source]
Technically I'd prefer to be living in a newbuild in Mariupol paying taxes to a different government rather than having the Israeli army drop bombs on my head and starving my entire family until we are all dead.

Small distinction to you perhaps, but to me it's a bit more than just "technical".

195. firesteelrain ◴[] No.44056237{10}[source]
Again, you didn’t say what I said. I described a complex labor force with various roles and racial backgrounds. You gave a sarcastic oversimplification, and now you’re shifting to a narrower historical claim that contradicts your own original tone.

“Even getting white workers to couple cars didn’t happen until much later”

That’s an overstatement. While Black workers were indeed disproportionately given dangerous roles like coupling cars in the South, it wasn’t unheard of for white laborers - especially poor or immigrant - to do that work too

The labor structure wasn’t as racially absolute as you’re implying

196. wyan ◴[] No.44056740{6}[source]
It is taking decades to achieve though!
197. LargoLasskhyfv ◴[] No.44058216{4}[source]
12.5kV?
replies(1): >>44066047 #
198. wbl ◴[] No.44066047{5}[source]
Thank you!
199. sehansen ◴[] No.44095161{4}[source]
There have been around 3 derailments per day in the US in the past few years: https://www.nlc.org/resource/interactive-rail-safety-map-see...