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461 points axelfontaine | 24 comments | | HN request time: 1.32s | source | bottom
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vesinisa ◴[] No.44039149[source]
Here's a much better article from the Finnish public broadcaster giving more context: https://yle.fi/a/74-20161606

My comments:

The important thing to note that at this point it's just a political posturing and an announcement of intent. They haven't shown any concrete technical plan how this would actually be executed.

> "Of course, we are very pragmatic and realistic, we cannot do this in five years. Planning will continue until the end of the decade, and maybe in 2032 we can start construction."

Once they have the cost estimates and effects on existing rail traffic studied, I bet construction will never start.

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cladopa ◴[] No.44039611[source]
>Once they have the cost estimates and effects on existing rail traffic studied, I bet construction will never start.

It is not that hard. Countries like Spain have already two different gauges and have the necessary technology in the trains to change between different systems.

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varsketiz ◴[] No.44039699[source]
One of the main goals of this is to not have the russian gauge available in case russians attack, so that logistics deeper into Finland cant happen easily with the same train, so backwards compatability is not desired.
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1. dotancohen ◴[] No.44039786[source]
But if the Spanish can muster dual gauge trains, what's to prevent the Russians from doing the same? Or is the Finnish gauge a state secret?
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2. theshrike79 ◴[] No.44039817[source]
The difference between Finnish and Russian gauge is 4mm

IIRC the diff to European standard is closer to 10cm, still doable but a hurdle compared to just driving a trainload of troops to the middle of Helsinki it's a bit harder

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3. dotancohen ◴[] No.44039863[source]

  > The difference between Finnish and Russian gauge is 4mm
What is the acceptable tolerance? It doesn't sound like a huge engineering effort to design a boogie compatible with both without requiring switching.
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4. anticensor ◴[] No.44040020{3}[source]
Yes, the acceptable tolerance is -4mm+7mm.
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5. bell-cot ◴[] No.44040027[source]
> what's to prevent

Conceptually? Nothing.

But building such trains, at scale, takes a load of resources. Resources which could otherwise be used to build tanks, guns, missiles, and similar high-priority products.

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6. CapitalistCartr ◴[] No.44040037{3}[source]
Train tracks are normally not precise to within 4mm anyway, and wheels are wide enough to tolerate that.
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7. T-A ◴[] No.44040176[source]
First sentence from the article: The Finnish government has announced the conversion of its rail network from Russian gauge (1,524 mm) to European standard (1,435 mm).

1524 - 1435 = 89

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5_ft_and_1520_mm_gauge_railway...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard-gauge_railway

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8. IAmBroom ◴[] No.44040830[source]
Also:

> what's to prevent

Russian lack of logistical planning.

9. iggldiggl ◴[] No.44041068{4}[source]
> Train tracks are normally not precise to within 4mm anyway

Yes they are. Of course practical tolerances including allowances for wear and there are large enough that things can be made to work, but in terms of nominal construction tolerances for example, 4 mm can easily eat up all your construction tolerances or even exceed them.

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10. iggldiggl ◴[] No.44041154{4}[source]
Where? Finland specifically, or elsewhere? Both my local tram system in Germany as well as DB as the national infrastructure operator in Germany have construction tolerances of only +/- 2 mm. Maintenance tolerances on the other hand can be quite a bit larger, at least in the plus direction (on the order of 15/20/25 mm).
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11. Cthulhu_ ◴[] No.44042017[source]
It's less about what the Russians can do and more about how fast European and NATO countries can move assets to a potential invasion front line; as it stands, they're slowed down at the borders needing to switch to the different gauges.
12. lazide ◴[] No.44042295{5}[source]
Sure, but thats Germans. I'm surprised it isn't specc'd in 10ths.
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13. sidewndr46 ◴[] No.44042334{5}[source]
I obviously don't have a in depth knowledge of Finnish rail, but have you ever looked at rail in the US? I can show you tracks with completely missing ties. Tracks that move vertically by a foot when the train goes over them. Tracks that visually snake all over the place. The difference is made by slowing down the train. Derailment at 3 mph rarely matters. The biggest risk is the conductor doesn't know it happened & continues to drag the car along the tracks
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14. iggldiggl ◴[] No.44042801{6}[source]
Sure, but even in the US that infrastructure state is usually only found on minor branch lines (shortlines), not on the main lines.
15. orthoxerox ◴[] No.44042875{3}[source]
There used to be a St.Pete-Helsinki high-speed train before the war, Allegro. It was built with bogies for a 1522mm gauge.
16. ◴[] No.44043270{5}[source]
17. anticensor ◴[] No.44043744{6}[source]
They should've specced 1435mm±410µm, with no broadening at curves.
18. ta1243 ◴[] No.44043745{3}[source]
So "closer to 10cm" then

Clearly not "doable", without guage changing bogies.

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19. ◴[] No.44047593{5}[source]
20. eqvinox ◴[] No.44047627{4}[source]
The really annoying thing is that it's too close for "simple" dual gauge rails (e.g. 1435 + 1000); 1435 + 1524 is possible and in fact exists (e.g. the one single SE-FI railway bridge that exists is dual guage: https://openrailwaymap.org/?style=gauge&lat=65.8273204537081...), but AFAIK it's expensive because the mounts interfere and need to be quite custom.
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21. theshrike79 ◴[] No.44049136{5}[source]
I just wish the Germans would be as accurate with their train schedules as they are with their rail gauge tolerances :D
22. int_19h ◴[] No.44049250[source]
I would also imagine that large-scale retrofitting of traincars with variable gauge adaptations is something that would be hard for foreign intelligence services (including the Finnish one to miss) - and would then serve as a signal that Russia is indeed preparing for an invasion.
23. ta1243 ◴[] No.44049902{5}[source]
That bridge is 4-rail, not 3-rail

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torne_River_Railway_Bridge#/me...

Even if you were to 4-rail every line, you'd potentially run into loading gauge issues (you would have to offset the current centre of the bogies, go too far one way and you collide with platforms, too far the other way and you collide with oncoming trains)

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24. eqvinox ◴[] No.44050308{6}[source]
Bleh, but kinda confirms my point too. I do think there are some 3-rail setups in other border regions though? I should check… then again it doesn't matter that much if it's 3 or 4.

As for the loading gauge, yes, of course. On the plus side, this is Finland, most of the lines is in the middle of nowhere and single track even. Maybe the best option for them is to just build 1435 in parallel whereever possible, and just merge where not otherwise practical (bridges, tunnels, populated areas & stations). I don't even think it's that infeasible considering Finland's layout. I'd wager there are only a handful of specific locations that need expensive work.