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461 points axelfontaine | 14 comments | | HN request time: 0.539s | source | bottom
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vesinisa ◴[] No.44039149[source]
Here's a much better article from the Finnish public broadcaster giving more context: https://yle.fi/a/74-20161606

My comments:

The important thing to note that at this point it's just a political posturing and an announcement of intent. They haven't shown any concrete technical plan how this would actually be executed.

> "Of course, we are very pragmatic and realistic, we cannot do this in five years. Planning will continue until the end of the decade, and maybe in 2032 we can start construction."

Once they have the cost estimates and effects on existing rail traffic studied, I bet construction will never start.

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oblio ◴[] No.44039743[source]
Fear of a foreign invasion by a country much larger than your, and one that occupied you once for 200 years and attacked you again just 20 years after independence tends to clear the mind.
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pydry ◴[] No.44039837[source]
Fear of foreign invasion is also why the Soviet Union invaded during the Winter War ("Greater Finland" irredentism was a thing, and St Petersburg was militarily exposed).

Fear is why Finland allied with the Nazis.

Fear is why the Soviet Union also signed a pact with the Nazis and invaded Ukraine.

It's easy to justify anything with fear.

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1. oblio ◴[] No.44040114[source]
One is the biggest country on the planet, with 150 million people.

The other one is about 300 sqkm with 5 million people.

When in doubt, use basic logic.

Your argument is the same as Iraq being a realistic threat against the US.

Also, list of Russian neighbors not threatened or invaded by Russia:

Belarus (pushed into a sort of union state)

China (too big)

Japan (I think)

Mongolia (I think)

Azerbaijan (I think)

List of neighbors threatened or invaded by Russia:

Ukraine

Georgia

Moldova (Transnistria occupied since 1991)

Estonia

Latvia

Lithuania

Finland

Poland

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2. pydry ◴[] No.44040357[source]
>Your argument is the same as Iraq being a realistic threat against the US.

Your argument appears to be that your enemy's fear driven by losing 27 million people during an invasion/war of extermination is exactly equivalent to your country's fear of weapons that were imagined solely for the purposes of justifying an invasion.

My argument was that it is quite easy to get a domestic population to treat all of the enemy's legitimate fears as utterly irrelevant while treating bullshit domestic fears as existential.

In a way I think you helped make this point for me by forgetting about those 27 million deaths.

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3. pixelesque ◴[] No.44040423[source]
> The other one is about 300 sqkm with 5 million people.

You've missed a few significant figures there, Finland's area is: 338145 km2

4. StefanBatory ◴[] No.44040897[source]
It's such a mystery why all neighbours of Russia hate Russia and Russians.

If only there was a reason for this.

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5. ◴[] No.44041166[source]
6. lazide ◴[] No.44042364{3}[source]
Experience.
7. pydry ◴[] No.44043123{3}[source]
I can name about 8 who dont. The rest all belong to or tried to join a military bloc which helped rape Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan for no particular reason other than because the gang boss demanded it.

It's more of mystery why particular kinds of westerners are especially sanctimonious about Moscow while bending over backwards to excuse nearly identical behavior from the west.

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8. oblio ◴[] No.44045903[source]
Which 27 million deaths? Finland never had 27 million inhabitants.
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9. oblio ◴[] No.44045992{4}[source]
> The rest all belong to or tried to join a military bloc which helped rape Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan for no particular reason other than because the gang boss demanded it.

Quick essay for 20 points, those countries all decided to join NATO BEFORE Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan.

WHY did they decide to try to join NATO? Who were they running away from and why?

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10. pydry ◴[] No.44049606{5}[source]
The promise to Ukraine was that they are going to be protected by their chosen gang rather than be cynically used to try and take down a rival gang.

The lie was laid bare once they were actually attacked. Article 5 protections - the only reason they are fighting this war - came off the table as soon as it became clear that the rival gang wasn't going to be taken down.

Quick essay for 30 points: write to a grieving mother campaigining against gangs explaining why even though her son joined the crips for protection and got murdered by a blood in the initiation phase, she needs to STFU about kids staying out of gangs. The reason is simple: she needs to STFU because several other 14 year olds who joined the crips for the promise of protection haven't yet had that promise tested.

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11. oblio ◴[] No.44049918{6}[source]
Ukraine wasn't in NATO and NATO members Baltics have not been attacked, even though they're a lot smaller and more vulnerable

The Western alliance is doing some horrible things worldwide, but your point of view regarding Eastern Europe is horribly mistaken. I'm fairly sure you have no idea what you're talking about, and you're probably not from there. I'd basically classify you as a tankie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie

I'm doubly going to classify you as a tankie as you're dodging the question of WHO Eastern Europe was running from (and WHY).

Also another quick essay for 40 points: who has voluntarily joined Russian led alliances (except for Armenia, which is currently reconsidering its life choices).

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12. earnestinger ◴[] No.44051022{3}[source]
Hate? No.

Wary? Yes.

Seems Necessary given current circumstances.

(After peace comes, and enough time passes, someday, we will be friends again)

13. pydry ◴[] No.44053692{7}[source]
Ironically this slur is only ever used by imperialists who support the empire they live under.

If we were having this argument inside the Soviet Union in 1968 you'd be calling me different slurs for an identical reason - because I wouldnt have supported sending the tanks into czechoslovakia. and you would, coz your calculus is "my empire justified, other empire unjustified".

This isnt any different to when I was called a Tankie in 2003 coz I didnt want to send the tanks in to Baghdad by people who accused me of being pro Saddam.

You apparently dont have the capacity to see pacifism, only traitors.

14. pydry ◴[] No.44053799{3}[source]
The Soviet Union lost 27 million people in WW2. It was a minor detail you swept under the carpet in your comment.