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1743 points caspii | 44 comments | | HN request time: 0.194s | source | bottom
1. shmiga ◴[] No.27430926[source]
SEO is so broken, it's not about website content or website quality. It's about how much money you pay to some punks - "SEO experts" who are hacking a system. I'm so sick of that.
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2. topicseed ◴[] No.27430980[source]
True to some extent but it is improving with Google updates. Now, there is a way to go still, and some legit websites get hit by updates unfortunately, but overall fewer and fewer scams pass through.

SEO used to be extremely gameable (seniority of site, keyword stuffing, backlinks), but these levers aren't as obvious now, if at all.

replies(1): >>27431044 #
3. shmiga ◴[] No.27431044[source]
That is great, but can google change their algo to some point where it works differently? Their ad business is there in the web.
replies(1): >>27431122 #
4. SquareWheel ◴[] No.27431122{3}[source]
Google changes their algo frequently. It's a cat and mouse game. Sometimes Google have the lead, and sometimes the Blackhat SEOs do.
replies(1): >>27431950 #
5. mrtksn ◴[] No.27431135[source]
If you Google stuff like "opening hours of ..." in Turkish(probably in other languages too), since many years the search results are only news websites spamming google, including the Turkish franchise of CNN, the CNN Turk.

The format goes like this: Lately people are searching for XYZ but is it safe to search for XYZ? What experts say for XYZ? To find out continue to read our article.

Then it's followed by wall of text made of keywords(in sentences that don't make sense), if you are lucky there would be the opening hours(which are often not accurate) somewhere down the text.

But that doesn't stop there. Even actual news articles are written for the consumption of the Google bot, the sentences often don't make sence, they are repeated multiple times with the synonyms of one of the words, making it into a lengthy article that doesn't have any meat beyond the title.

I argue that the problem is not SEO experts with low ethics, the problem is the way the business is structured. SEO experts don't do it for the sake of the art but because they are paid to do it. They are paid to do it because it has a positive ROI on bringing eyeballs and people pay Google for eyeballs, then Google pays those who generate the eyeballs.

Isn't it better for Google and everyone involved if you can't find what you are looking for, continuing your search brings more eyeballs? It's not like you are going to switch to Bing? You are also not going to abandon the internet and go to a library.

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6. Avamander ◴[] No.27431182[source]
> Then it's followed by wall of text made of keywords.

I've noticed a rise of that as well. With some searches such spam is all I've received. But that's really a problem in all languages Google supports I think.

There's even malware that infects websites and generates such content, not sure what's the point of that. Anyone knows?

replies(1): >>27431206 #
7. vijayr02 ◴[] No.27431206{3}[source]
I'm guessing if even legitimate websites have similar content it's difficult to distinguish between fake and real content for an automated system?
8. AtNightWeCode ◴[] No.27431251[source]
This is not how it generally works, I would say. It is more about how much you pay Google and how good your page is. I worked with several SEO experts and none of them suggested scams like this. The risk of doing something like this is too high for many companies.
9. DelightOne ◴[] No.27431284[source]
That's why for certain things Google is useless. Have to add certain keywords to avoid the SEO content to get comparisons, reviews, forums.

One day Google may introduce multiple search rankings, where one of them is SEO and another is the "useful things". But I don't hold my breath.

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10. ma2rten ◴[] No.27431346[source]
The useful thing would instantly become useless because people would start gaming it.
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11. eino ◴[] No.27431364[source]
> It's not like you are going to switch to Bing

From personal experience, I switched to another tool (DDG) a couple of years ago. When I occasionally try Google, for 95% of common requests I'm appalled by the results: the top is only SEO garbage. For very specific and precise searches (where people are not trying to game the system), Google is still the best, though.

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12. alpaca128 ◴[] No.27431462[source]
It's also so frustrating to get results for websites which present themselves in the search results with "Results for <your query>"...only to show "no results found" when you actually click on them.

Good thing /etc/hosts has no size limit.

13. 1vuio0pswjnm7 ◴[] No.27431480[source]
Fix the system? People who comment online seem to think the concept of the "search engine" cannot be improved, except by Google. The list of inactive search engines at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Search_engine is depressing. The problem for us is that the supposed innovator Google has little financial incentive to improve the system regarding "content" or "quality". As long as the traffic keeps coming, the ad revenue keeps coming. Their best bet is promote what's "popular" ("top-ranking"). Because the traffic keeps coming no matter what Google does, "content" and "quality" are not really their major concerns. There are no true alternatives for users. Bing is basically a Google clone. No new ideas. Other search engines, like DDG, just piggyback off Google or Bing crawlers. Not sure about Baidu, Yandex or others but I suspect they are more or less Google clones as well. In every case, advertising dictates design. No new ideas.
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14. simonbarker87 ◴[] No.27431492{3}[source]
Huh, you've given me a realisation - I don't do 'generic searching' on google anymore. I hear people say "google is broken" and I always think "it's fine for me" but thats because I'm searching for specific things, error messages, function calls etc. If I am searching for general interest stuff I tend to search reddit, hacker news or some other topic specific community rather than just search google
replies(1): >>27431619 #
15. maze-le ◴[] No.27431527[source]
I wonder why google is not more rigorous about that. Google search is riddled since years with "optimized" content nobody wants. It's become so bad even my non-techie friends are beginning to switch to DuckDuckGo -- which is not better per se (probably worse at contextualizig).
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16. AussieWog93 ◴[] No.27431619{4}[source]
I just realised I do something similar - almost every term I search will have the word "Reddit" appended to it. It's not perfect, but at least the content is intended for human consumption.
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17. bungle ◴[] No.27431682[source]
Getting stuff on PagaRank feels a game. Getting stuff out of Google feels a game too. To the point that moving to an alternative feels worth it, at least to try.
18. apples_oranges ◴[] No.27431688[source]
I'm trying alternative search engines from time to time and and they are much weaker than Google. So yeah, I'd bet on them to improve stage. The others first need to catch up.
replies(1): >>27432069 #
19. lvncelot ◴[] No.27431803{5}[source]
Same for me, `site:reddit.com` for almost everything that has to do with product recommendations or reviews.
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20. DelightOne ◴[] No.27431886{3}[source]
Agreed, I heard that before.

What about trust-based systems. You choose who you trust and get information that they found not to be SEO-garbage, like trust-rings. When the system can't do it alone, user-centric feedback may work. That could give interesting inputs besides the ones Google already gets using its standard metrics.

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21. 12ian34 ◴[] No.27431950{4}[source]
the game doesn't change ... only the players
22. lodovic ◴[] No.27432032[source]
> It's not like you are going to switch to Bing?

I changed the default search engine from Google to Bing and DDG in all browsers. Google does have better results, so sometimes I still need to use them. But for 90% of generic queries such as the weather, product information, or finding a company's website, Bing is good enough.

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23. JPLeRouzic ◴[] No.27432069{3}[source]
Long time ago (~2005) my French Telco employer had a search engine (Voila), and they were worried by Google's influence so they try a test campaign to see how Google's results were different from their own search engine.

The result was astonishing: In the first page most results were similar, except for the order. Specifically a first result in Google was only second in the first page in the company's search engine. But in overall the difference was mostly in the presentation, not in the results.

There was something Spartan in Google's page UI that made it more credible and informative. At the time for most people including academics, they were the good guys and us (Telcos) the bad boys.

I guess academics advices were very influential on young adults who will shape the world the next years.

I guess also the erratic management by France Telecom was for something in the demise of Voila.fr

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24. high_byte ◴[] No.27432147{3}[source]
I used DDG as primary engine for a while and it was more like 30% effective
25. randomswede ◴[] No.27432168{4}[source]
Yes, but it feels like an approach that would not allow you to do anon searches. I guess pseud searches may be good enough.

I suspect this is actually one of those fundamentally hard problems.

26. teddyh ◴[] No.27432186{4}[source]
When you place a tangible value on trust, trust becomes a commodity to be bought and sold. See:

1. Old domain names bought solely for their old SEO rank.

2. Apps on mobile app stores are sold, and updates begin to include shady privacy-invading malware.

3. Old free software projects on various registries (npm etc.) are sold, with the same result as (2).

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27. Nextgrid ◴[] No.27432323{3}[source]
I doubt it. A lot of SEO drivel appears easy to detect - recipes for example.

Recipes would ultimately be a list of ingredients, concise instructions and maybe a picture or two. It should be trivial to train a classifier to detect SEO spam in this context.

I think Google doesn't really have an incentive to do this, as SEO spam typically includes ads which can contain Google ads or analytics/Google Tag Manager which helps Google, thus prioritizing better results would work against their bottom line.

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28. DelightOne ◴[] No.27432339{5}[source]
Agreed, being able to become part of any group makes this problematic. Without repercussions, it seems difficult. Detection of ownership and the following loss of trust seems to be also in order. Or make the trust innate, not sellable to others, under the assumption that you cannot sell yourself.

Otherwise, it seems really like a cat and mouse game. Another option may be to force SEO to be indistinguishable from the best content. Is that the current goal?

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29. dspillett ◴[] No.27432975[source]
I've not seen it for opening times (UK here) but the same pattern is very visible elsewhere.

Entertainment/news sites are chock full of pages like "<whatever>, what we know so far, release date, cast, will it be renewed, has it been cancelled..." pages that spend many paragraphs saying "we know nothing, randomly plucking crap out of thin air we could guess something-or-other but that remains to be confirmed". A new news story, film, show, or even just a hint of something, and the pages go up to try capture early clicks. Irritatingly they are often not updated quickly when real information becomes available or that information changes (particularly over the last year that has affected release dates). I have several sites DNS blocked because that annoys me less than getting one of these useless/out-of-date pages more often than not when I follow one of their links.

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30. mrtksn ◴[] No.27434191{3}[source]
Oh, tell me more about it. It's a painful endeavour to gather information about upcoming TV show precisely because of the tactics you described.

BTW, news websites in question are not doing it only for opening times but for any popular search phrase they can come up. Would be such a shame if outlets like BBC, WSJ and others adopted that kind of SEO.

31. mikevin ◴[] No.27434312[source]
I still do this but I'm 99% sure Google and DDG max out at around 3 keywords these days. I just get results for the top 3 SEO keywords, no matter how much I try to refine my search.

Maybe it's just because I'm searching for technical stuff but DDG and Google are both a big source of frustration for me,

DDG thinks I mistype most of my queries and will desperately try to correct my 'mistake' because "surely nobody is really searching for documentation about ARM32 bootloaders, they just mistyped when they were really trying to look for a webshop that sells 32 different ARMchairs and ARMy boots.".

Google will understand my input at least half of the time but uses that power to show me the power of websites that do some article/keyword scraping and run GPT on it, or this great new Medium blogpost with two paragraphs of someone copying a Wikipedia summary of what ARM is and copy pasting build instructions from a GitHub README.

I've tried searching github.com itself but that's just a nice way to find out that apparently most of the data they store is just scraped websites, input for ML models or dictionaries and they will happily show me all 9K forks of the one repo that contains the highest density of these keywords.

/rant

32. FridayoLeary ◴[] No.27434920{3}[source]
I agree. Although DDG isn't exactly a bed of roses either.
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33. jitbit ◴[] No.27435464{3}[source]
Me too, but DDG is using Bing under the hood though.
replies(1): >>27455203 #
34. WarOnPrivacy ◴[] No.27435922{4}[source]
DDG's refusal to honor booleans is putting a gun to it's own head.

The best is minus operands acting more like plus or quotes.

35. WarOnPrivacy ◴[] No.27435989[source]
Everyone wonders about that. Googling most phone numbers return nothing but pages of spam links.

A decade from now, Google will have made no improvement.

36. atatatat ◴[] No.27436186{6}[source]
Putting this here makes it even less likely marketers will miss "gaming reddit" as part of their strategy.
replies(1): >>27445288 #
37. jehb ◴[] No.27436303{4}[source]
> Recipes would ultimately be a list of ingredients, concise instructions and maybe a picture or two.

So, if Google altered their algorithm such that "recipe" content had to be shorter-form in order to perform better in SERPs, how would this change anything? The sites that profit from search traffic would be the ones with their fingers on the pulse of the algorithm, and the resources to instantly alter their content in order to ensure that they continued to rank for the terms that were driving traffic.

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38. rrdharan ◴[] No.27436531{6}[source]
https://xkcd.com/810/
39. enknamel ◴[] No.27436930[source]
Or .... how much money you pay Google. This is working as intended for a free search engine.
40. Nextgrid ◴[] No.27439002{5}[source]
Well, if Google ranks user-friendly content higher then sites will either adjust to be more user-friendly or get outranked by new sites that are user-friendly. The user wins.
41. 1vuio0pswjnm7 ◴[] No.27443249{4}[source]
I thought this a really interesting story because, as I remember it, Google was quite well-established and the dominant search engine in 2005.
42. fakedang ◴[] No.27445288{7}[source]
They already do, but mods have a vested interest in keeping communities clean.
43. DaiPlusPlus ◴[] No.27455203{4}[source]
I thought that was just for image search?
44. raxxorrax ◴[] No.27578612[source]
If a topic or search term is present in any form of news article (If one paper has them, they all have them shortly after), the search results are just extremely bad. You know that Google promotes its media friends and by now Google results look like an ad list. They haven't stopped innovating, they are moving backwards.

It would need an option to ignore any form of news media in search results.