Germany votes to bring in voluntary military service programme for 18-year-olds

> "We don't want to spend half a year of our lives locked up in barracks, being trained in drill and obedience and learning to kill," the organisers of the protests wrote in a statement posted on social media. "War offers no prospects for the future and destroys our livelihoods."

Is the idea that it’s better for your livelihood to just start learning how speak Russian now?

I think a lot of young people look at all of the wars waged post-WWII and are rightfully opposed to fighting for their governments. Would you want to die for nothing in Vietnam? Probably not, and a lot of other people didn't want to as well. Some of them did anyway, and it was all for nothing.

So please have some grace if today's kids have looked back at our miserable history and have decided that they'd rather not die for a country that doesn't seem to give a shit about them.

Germany didn't fight in Vietnam.

The problem is, if Russian takes over they'll just conscript you and send you to die in a ditch anyway.

Missing the point.

Great, I'll go sign up to die in a ditch for a war I oppose to avoid being forced to die in a ditch for a war I oppose.

The German government will be the first ones to tell you that the German language and ancestry is totally unrelated to the idea of who gets to be German.

Putin will happily take over your home, even if you thought Viet Nam was a waste.

On the other hand, we know that a lot of those who want the Germans fighting the Russians speak English.

How is it a proxy war if Russia invades and you fight back?

They were in Afghanistan and the U.S. would have no problems with setting up other EU countries as proxies against Russia in order to get Russia out of countries like Syria and Venezuela (as has now happened, courtesy of the Ukrainians).

The Venezuelan escalation happened after the Alaska Summit, and God knows what tradeoffs were made there verbally and with full deniability.

A strong army is only good if you have a strong, independent foreign policy. German chancellors used to be able to contradict the U.S., but that is no longer a given.

Because both sides are funded and armed by much larger players using their respective proxies to deplete the resources of the other side. NATO is using Ukraine like a bullet sponge to deplete Russian resources, China is using Russia as a bullet sponge to deplete NATO resources. NATO sends Ukraine equipment, happy to send hundreds of thousands of Ukranians who have no say in the matter to their deaths. China sends Russia raw materials and manufacturing equipment for weapon systems, happy to send hundreds of thousands of Russians who have no say in the matter to their deaths.

Western defense contractors and Chinese industrial suppliers profit. Russians and Ukranians alike die.

It sounds like you believe life in western democracy is exactly the same as life in modern imperial Russia, like if you could choose, you would have no preference whatsoever?

In my opinion pitting our youth against theirs man to man means we have already lost anyway. Lots of people that don't deserve it would have to die. We need to be able to destroy them at the push of a button so they don't even think about invading us. And then we don't need to order kids around to their deaths.

In other words we need a nuclear umbrella. Now that America is no longer our friend we need to build our own. It has worked very well to keep us safe since the 50s. And I don't think the French + English ones are sufficient deterrence anymore.

Exactly. Even after Vietnam, in this century. Iraq war 2 was all false pretenses. And the resulting power vacuum created ISIS. Afghanistan accomplished absolutely nothing, things are back to the way it was and all the deaths were for nothing.

The only fairly recent war that the west was involved in that was slightly justified was the first gulf war. But even that wasn't really any of America's business. It wasn't that they actually cared about the Kuwaiti people. Just the oil.

> If things are as the governments claim

Leaving aside your xenophobic ramblings, that's a VERY BIG "if".

That's the traditional recipe for military coups. When the ones with the weapons, training, and combat experience have no particular loyalty to the regime, they often start thinking that they would be more qualified to rule.

Simply because all bets are off when they come back armed, trained, hardened and angry.

What the heck is this racist drivel

History shows that the best way to resist, in these circumstances, might be to let them in, and then blow them up in the streets and countryside until they leave. It's cheaper and (morbidly enough) probably has a lower human cost.

Wars are won on resolve, and mercenaries don't have any. The reason so many of these people fled to Europe in the first place was to avoid getting caught up in violence. They have zero reason to fight anything except the insistence that they fight.

Also, this is racist as hell, why isn't it flagged to death yet?

But do people think American will translate to Germany?

Russia, because just by existing there as a male in a certain age bracket you have a realistic chance of being tasered and beaten until you sign "voluntary" military service papers so that they can send you to die on the front lines of a war of conquest (https://theins.ru/en/society/277452).

That wouldn't be half as bad, by comparison. But it's more like learning how to survive in the Russian "meat wave" corps a bit longer than your peers.

Looking at the parts of Eastern Ukraine that were under Russian occupation since 2014 and are now almost devoid of male population, that's what happens if you're not willing to fight in your own (European) army: sooner or later you end up fighting in the Russian one.

Of course, it's just a question of Ukraine knowing what's good for it (and the poor Russians) and folding so that all of the dying stops!

Nice one, аноним29; I hope you made your day's quota!

You must have missed my comment about opposing the war. But this kind of bad faith accusation is really disappointing to see on HN. The caliber of discourse here is usually much higher - people engaging with the actual merits of the points being raised, not reverting to attacking strawmen that only exist in their head as if this was Facebook.

Ordinary Russian and Ukranian people are both victims of this war. It is being waged for reasons neither of them chose, that neither of them asked for, that neither of them wanted. Civilians are being killed on both sides, and the people most vested in the continuation of the conflict are those that reap all of the profits from the war while paying none of the human costs. This is a classic principal-agent problem.

If you can't see the inhumanity in the structural forces at play and want to play a game of "attack the strawman" to score meaningless internet points while millions die needlessly over a pointless war, I can't force you to stop, but I'd at least hope you can grow up and take the tragedy and human suffering seriously enough at some point to care more about that than you do about your HN rep.

This is not how reality works at all. Nuclear war is a last resort, not a first response to a ground invasion. Ground troops are essential for defense, even in the era of nukes and drones.

No it is not a last resort. It is a political weapon that helps you avoid war.

Wouldn't that require military training, too?

What history shows that?

Housing is cheap in Somalia too.

Freedom is not prices of rent - it’s whether the police can arrest you for criticizing the government.

> But this kind of bad faith accusation is really disappointing to see on HN.

The longer you stick around HN, the less surprising this is.

HN does not punish commenting in bad faith, and the design of HN's gamified engagement systems encourages bad-faith use of the downvote and flagging system.

Conscripts are generally not allowed to be moved abroad.

Why not, at that guy cares about his country

> You must have missed my comment about opposing the war.

You're opposing the war in the same way Russian propaganda "opposes" it: if only Ukraine stopped fighting, so many lives would have been saved!

But Ukrainians don't have that choice; if they stop fighting against the Russian aggression, they will be fighting as part of it in a few years when Russia invades the next country over. Not to mention losing their culture in the cultural genocide that Russia is committing in the occupied territories.

On the other hand, Russians can stop fighting and go home any time you guys feel sufficiently "opposing the war". But that option is clearly not what you're advocating here with your posts.

Learning to speak Russian, and to live with the massive amount of corruption, prosecution, genocide, and much lower quality of life.

Assuming you survive the initial wave of plunder, rape and murder of course.

But that they learn how to speak English is not an issue for you, is it?

I'd rather learn Russian than to get drilled to shoot Russians. Current Germany/Europe doesn't have anything to offer that I'd raise a weapon for.

Each to their own.

Had to imagine Putin moving into someone's 45sqm flat in the suburbs after his evil empire invaded somewhere. Had to chuckle, thanks for that.

Ukrainians had a choice as well which is why many of their men and women escaped and are now living in various European neighbouring countries instead of rotting in a ditch somewhere.

You're also describing Germany and most of Europe will follow suit. Political elites wanting war will make it so that being against the government will be punishable by law. See UK, see Germany where posts on social media will get you visits by police.

Everything the media has been hammering Russia for is being setup right here in Europe.

Do you think Russians have a better quality of life than Germans?

You seem to be forgetting that Russia is clearly the aggressor, and Ukraine clearly the defender. None of this would be happening if Russia simply abided by international law and common decency.

It’s simple. Don’t invade your neighbors.

While it’s all reprehensible, I’ll give a pass to horrific recruitment practices in a nation fighting for its survival. Not so much to a nation working to commit genocide on their neighbor in an adventuristic invasion.

I’d be saying the same thing about Ukraine if they had been the ones to invade Russia. Russia chose to be the bully here. This “both sides” rhetoric is just gaslighting and victim blaming BS.

So you'd rather read Russian propaganda?

Weird choice.

Hi, Russian propaganda.

So in your experience there is only one or the other and there's no room for nuance and neutral assessments of both positions?

Guess who has been propagandized.

Maybe you should look for other sources than random YouTube videos of people shopping in central Moscow.

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/04/02/indoor-plumbing-st...

There is nuance and neutral assessments, but your comment provides absolutely none of that.

The state of Russia are very well documented you know, by countless of neutral observers. Yet you dismiss it all as "mainstream media propaganda".

> your livelihood to just start learning how speak Russian now?

that was a thing in East Germany not that long ago

> So you'd rather read Russian propaganda?

Propaganda happens on both sides during a war. You just need to be aware of it.

These arguments always try to imply that both sides are equally bad, which is not the case (by far).

> The UK locks up more people for speech crimes than Russia does.

Do you think there might be a fairly obvious reason for that?

And you're posting a 6+ years old news report about indoor plumbing for a country with the lowest population density (in squared kilometers) of ~8.5 compared to ~35 (US) and ~100 (all of the EU) as if it had any meaning.

Good luck, man.

Reading the nuanced and neutral assessments where what convinced me that mainstream media propaganda is an issue in the first place but I see that this isn't leading anywhere.

Good luck on your path.

Here, educate yourself:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_occupation_of_...

The Red Army wasn't all that civilized either on their way to Berlin.

Says the guy who is "Looking at various videos of people going shopping in Russia I see lots of full cabinets"

26 million people killed in Soviet Union. Jews massacred in Lithuania, Latvia, Ukraine by the local population (not all of them participated, but your current friends ideological fathers did). Only in Leningrad's blocade 2 million people died.

It was the Soviet Army which liberated Auschwitz, Soviet Army which crushed the nazi war machine starting from Stalingrad.

And these are the main points which your nauseating antirussian propaganda pretends as if it does not exist. And the rest, some of it happened, some of it did not. And wikipedia is not a reliable source for historic events, itis full of propaganda as most educated people realize.

[Just saw that this comment got hidden; if it was not so dangerous, one could have only laughed at how the "free speech" warriors want to suppress other people's views. Nothing new of course.]

Indoor plumbing doesn't have anything to do with population density. Millions of rural Americans have indoor plumbing without municipal water and sewer systems, using wells and septic tanks.

Yeah, it will technically not be Putin himself, but someone from russia's poor regions, while you will be forcibly send to the grinder.

This all happened multiple times, and the only reason you can chuckle is ignorance.

Glad that you are thinking so much about Ukrainians.

Don't forget that hundreds of thousands of russians are rotting in ditches as of now. Save some pity for them too.

I chuckled because of the s/Russia/Putin/g nonsense everywhere. I'm not laughing at anyone's expense if they forcibly lose their home, no matter where and under which circumstances.

Most of Europe stopped letting Russian conscription refugees cross the border.

I'm not Russian either.

Speaking of things people pretend not to exist, Russian historiography frames WWII as lasting from 1941 to 1945. The USSR conspired with the Nazis to divide Europe[1], invaded Poland from the east in cooperation with Germany[2], held a joint victory parade when Soviet and German forces met[3], murdered the Polish people in an industrial manner[4], and so forth. Later, it pretended that the war began only in 1941 and that none of this had happened. These events were officially acknowledged only in the early 1990s, in the final days of the USSR.

And these were only the opening months of the war. Here is Soviet officer Leonid Rabichev giving a chilling description of the final months of the war in Prussia and the extent of Soviet atrocities against civilians: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ywe5pFT928

Stories like these are why the phrase "Soviet liberators" is used only sarcastically in Eastern Europe.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pac...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_military...

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

You see, millions are already killed in the biggest war in Europe since WW2 and it looks like this is just the prelude.

Russia is threatening to fight Europe as of yesterday, continue to increase weapon production and militarisation. It is obvious that it just cannot stop as its economy and social order is switching more and more to the war-time. China backs russia up and officially declaring that it cannot allow Russia to lose.

The alliance which was created specifically to stop this scenario is now being neutralised by US withdrawing from it.

And you still call it "Russia/Putin nonsense". Do you live somewhere where you feel isolated from all of this?

Please tell me so I can go there as well. Because at the place where I live - Russians drones are flying over important infrastructure mapping it out without government/military being able to stop it. Russians propaganda fills social media, and politicians are corrupted by russia without hiding it too much.

Yes all those things are true, but the Red Army raping and pillaging on a massive scale in the liberated areas is also true. Bringing the dark side of one's history to light (no matter the country) isn't propaganda but the first step towards freeing yourself from state propaganda. The Soviet Union already seemed to be have been further in that process after Stalin's death than Russia is today.

What are you suggesting? That without forced military service Russia will take over Germany? It's not impossible, but basic military service likely does little to thwart invasion by a powerful Russian army — powerful by your suggestion. This is quite an expensive program and a questionable use of taxpayer money.

"Conspired with the nazis to divide Europe" - was pushed to reach an agreement with Germany by the other parties, Soviet Union did realize the danger of the nazi regime, and this was not the preferred course, even for Stalin's regime.

"Used only sarcastically in Eastern Europe"

You just forgot to add "after decades of antirussian propaganda". And still, there are people who don't think about it sarcastically at all, they just are not allowed to speak (if they don't want to lose work, or to get processed by the state for "negating history").

As for the rest go and get the skeletons out from your own closet, there are plenty of them there.

You misunderstand. I'm not against reporting about Russia. The oversimplification of reducing everything down to "Putin this, Putin that" is my issue. Imagine me saying everything the EU is doing is explicitly because of Ursel. It's stupid, ignorant and reminds me of Trump Derangement Syndrome which had a similar effect on reporting about US issues.

I live in Germany so I'm fucked either way. I'm also aware of NATO expansion until a point where Russia couldn't ignore it anymore. You think Russia will attack Europe, I think the West is keen on fighting a war against Russia. I don't subscribe to any of the narratives you presented, especially since I think it obvious that its the West that finds itself having to wage a war because their currencies, social order and demographics needing a reset. NATO being a defensive alliance is a joke.

Since we're unlikely to come closer to an understanding I'll refrain from going further.

Sometimes it's just easier to agree to disagree.

May we all live through this somehow.

ahahah really ? I would suggest you study some geopolitics.

I am not pro Russia, I am anti war. There are no winners in war. And the US betrayed us (I live in Germany).

Also what about that "millions" number? Where did that come from? I can barely find any mentions of numbers exceeding 500.000 people being killed thus far.

No it is not comparable.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/1/22/russia-hands-down-c...

> You think Russia will attack Europe, I think the West is keen on fighting a war against Russia.

And the way it was keen on fighting a war is (check notes) _increase economic ties to the point that the whole of Germany's economic growth was dependent on Russian' gas_? Or to reduce military spending year over the year? Or to stop conscription in all countries?

It is completely a wild take for me to hear that the west was keen to fight a war with nuclear power by the means of reducing its fighting abilities to almost zero while the other side militarises? Am I having some crazy dream?

Sorry, I meant killed and injured. I don't keep up with the numbers, but few years ago it was at least around half a million from both sides. I extrapolated it for last few years.

Germany already had mandatory conscription for a long time and not once were conscripts send abroad.

Germany took part in a lot of those wars.

> I'm also aware of NATO expansion until a point where Russia couldn't ignore it anymore.

Are you?

Tell us — for how long has NATO been on russia's border?

> You think Russia will attack Europe

No, we have observed that russia has already attacked Europe.

An attempt at mind reading to market an opinion

Are you of fighting age? In other words, are you putting your life on the line, or you just think that “someone else” should die to protect you?

> I live in Germany so I'm fucked either way.

Honest question: why don't you emigrate to Russia since you seem to admire it so much? They are specifically looking for people who 'share Russian values', and Germany is on the 'white list' - so acquiring citizenship should be really easy and you don't need to live in a country you apparently seem to hate.

Here's how it works:

https://russianresidency.com/

https://mid.ru/upload/medialibrary/aef/94mfg4ehws6kav1nk8bts...

> and all the deaths were for nothing

Deaths and destruction in wars against significantly weaker countries are never for nothing, as certain well-connected people always get filthy rich, regardless of the end result. The ones who make the decisions, they always get their share, whether through the war hardware industry, mercenary business, the reconstruction industry, the resource exploitation industry, or something else. The wider population might end up worse off and poorer, but who has ever asked them about anything when there is so much money to be made by their ''democratic representatives'' if they play along?

You mean the home of a boomer that you have to continuously pay an ever-increasing share of your wages for so he can just sit there and live off your labor?

I don't think you'll find much sympathy for that class among the people this reform is targeting.

So now Soviet Union was "pushed" to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, and to attack independent countries? I'm sure modern Russia was also "pushed" to attack Ukraine and Georgia?

There's no need for antirussian propaganda. The Russian actions speak for themselves, have always done so, and will continue to do so.

Russia in Afghanistan. America in Afghanistan. America in Iraq. America and France in Vietnam. France in Algeria. France in Haiti. Britain in Ireland.

Honorable mention to Britain in America and Germany in France, where guerilla/resistance forces were instrumental in the eventual allied victories, even though the invaders were eventually toppled by outside armies.

I dunno, maybe Berliners would prefer becoming Ukrainian War-era Kyiv instead of WWII-era Paris after all.

No. That is really bloody and a last resort. And horrible for civilians. Bucha and Irpin are counter-examples.

Russians should only be treated with a very long stick.

Guerilla warfare is not winning, it is making things a huge mess.

Sure, but it doesn't require throwing young people who don't care to fight into pitched battle meat grinders.

Obviously, either path is undesirable. It would be nice if we could use some of those "undermining and overthrowing regimes we don't like" expertise on actual threats instead of countries that just want to nationalize their resources.

> I'm sure modern Russia was also "pushed" to attack Ukraine and Georgia?

Well yeah, that is indeed what the Russian argument is: America/NATO forced us to attack Ukraine. There was no choice!

> I'm also aware of NATO expansion

This is the Russian way of putting it. Guess what, NATO doesn't "expand". Each and every NATO member had to apply for membership themselves, after a national decision to do so. Any guesses why all Russian neighbours want to be NATO members?

Haha you think the youth own homes? It'll be young people dying so old people get richer just like every other war.

Everybody who talks like this is unwilling to fight themselves.

Keep on ignoring Western intelligence influence on color revolutions and political instability at your own peril. I'm out.

Use, for example, Google Translate on the (Russian) explanations of the lyrics at https://genius.com/Ic3peak-no-more-death-lyrics to understand the context of this song.

Just turning CC=on in the video does a great job as well. They translated well, I think?

In my opinion understanding even the translated text requires a little bit more (cultural) context, which genius.com provides.

There is no such thing as russian conscription refugees - all of the invading army consists of military contractors now.

It was a brief period in 2022 where russia was forced to conscript to save itself from total loss.

> These arguments always try to imply that both sides are equally bad, which is not the case (by far).

You have actually no way of knowing the truth

My words:

> It was a brief period in 2022 when russia was forced to conscript to save itself from total loss.

Atricle:

> 25 September 2022

At present, the russian army is the biggest mercenary army in the world.

Bit hard to paint Portugal, Spain, France, and Britain as Russia's neighbours. All enthusiastic NATO members.

You may have to read my comment again, I was not reinventing geography.

Of course you're "out" when an inconvenient question lands in your lap.

I'll ask you again.

For how long has NATO been on russia's border?

I know you've seen this comment. I know you've downvoted it and ignored it because it's at odds with your sympathy towards terrorists.

And all this from a guy who has never actually even been to russia.

palm_penetrating_forehead.gif

I do.

When I was sitting in my home in Odesa, Ukraine, on February 23rd, 2022, one side was saying that the russians were going to invade, and the other side claimed that this was Western russophobic hysteria.

Do you remember what happened next? Do you? Tell us. What happened? Was there an invasion? Was there a war? Were there drones and tanks and missiles and rapes and tortures and hundreds of thousands of people dead and cities razed and millions displaced?

Who could possible know these things!?

HuuRR DuuURrR YoU HaVe aCtUaAllyt no WaY oF kNoWiNg ThE TrUtH DuyrrRR

I didn't say you were. I live in a NATO member myself which is nowhere near Russia and yet keeps baiting Russia and using it as an easy scapegoat for its issues... Now and then it's true. Thankfully I haven't been accused of being a Russian bot for a while. :)

> Wars are won on resolve

That's what Hitler thought too...

From what I learned as typical 'armchair general', wars are usually won by superior logistics.

The idea is that it apparently doesn't matter who is the government, German or Russian, because these young men can't start normal lives anyway.

Why fight for a nation that is keen on giving away your taxes to random immigrants? Then forcing you to fight and die?

Explain how it’s not just “racism” but also “as hell” “racial”. Is “as hell racism” like a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad, super special, makes you stomp your feet really hard, and you’ll hold your breath or else racism?

Did it? Genuine question. I thought they were mostly prohibited by their constitution (a.k.a. what the Allies thought was best) from engaging in offensive warfare.

> The oversimplification of reducing everything down to "Putin this, Putin that" is my issue. Imagine me saying everything the EU is doing is explicitly because of Ursel. It's stupid, ignorant and reminds me of Trump Derangement Syndrome which had a similar effect on reporting about US issues.

Those oversimplifications are in fact also really at the core of the issues. Russia without Putin would be far less likely to have quagmired itself in this economy-wrecking show of technical and strategic incompetence. His navy is intimidated by a nation without active seamen! His invasion forces got stuck on the way in, for weeks!

And in the US, it has literally been proven career suicide, time and time again, for a GOP politician to buck the line, even a little, against that demented, narcissistic idiot. I can't believe the nation has not only created, but sustained, this freakish coopting of half the government - but it has. If Trump says he likes poop-flavored ice cream, GOP senators will line up for their brown-lipped photo ops. I guarantee it.

It's hard to make adequate satire of these two hellish clowns.

Technically correct, but more importantly: the lack of trained military personnel does even less to thwart invasion.

"Likely little" >> nothing.

It is both. The policy of AMD has never yet failed.

But likewise, AMD only works because there IS a last resort that is unthinkably bad for both sides.

Voluntarily? Nope.

So, leave. Emigration to Russia isn't that hard.

Seriously, you're just an internet poser.

Who isn't a complete jester nowadays? Can you take anyone serious who has some impact and public presence? It's one big complete that most of us aren't in. Zelensky is a coke head, he's surrounded by proud fascists wearing their symbols while EU is talking of saving democracy by propping up a government that cancelled it's elections. Scholz stood next to Biden while he proclaimed that the US will end NS2. People get debanked for having wrong opinions but it's all meant to keep our freedoms. You can't take any of it seriously anymore.

They didn’t consider them offensive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_involving_Germany...

Of course, but a trained military is achieved by proper incentives to have people enlist — willingly.

I would make a terrible soldier, but I attended an info session laat year about how civilians can contribute their skills to the military. Force me into service and all you'd get is resentment. Ironically I can't actually do anything for the military since I don't have citizenship here.

Stop spreading Kremlin bullshit here.

Why do you keep ignoring my question?

How long has NATO been on russia’s border?

1999 or 2004.

So how the fuck can russia’s narrative of the war being about “NATO expansion” and preventing NATO from appearing on russia’s border hold any water when NATO has been on russia’s border since even before Putin was in office?

Exactly what is driving you to simp so hard for a terrorist regime here?

All that rhetoric. I get it, you're Ukrainian, you've been psyopped into oblivion since at least the 2014 coup so I get why you're acting the way you do.

Watch Putin's 2007 address at the Munich Security Conference. If you don't, well, whatever. If you do, you'll at least be equipped to understand my position here.

No, you don’t get it, because I’m not Ukrainian.

I understand your position just fine. You are a useful idiot for the kremlin; brainwashed by fucking terrorists.

Disgusting, shameful behaviour.

Well, you mentioned living in Odessa in 2022 but I shouldn't have assumed your nationality based on that, sorry about that.

And yet you're the one doing all the name calling, not me. I'll ignore this thread from now on, you're obviously not able to have a reasonable exchange of opinions. Bye.