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Two wings, two different moods, one prison.
That's unfortunately not universally true. This is most obvious when considering the death penalty.
Norway exemplifies a rehabilitative justice model and it is effective, evidenced by low recidivism rates.
Unfortunately, the trend for more rule based order has reversed. European governments are all struggling when the "who cares about rules" governments are full steam ahead. Even if they have net negative approval, they have plenty of fanatical supporters, they hold full narrative control through the media which is owned by their super rich allies. Oh and by the way this is happening because the "rule based world" folks screwed up and weren't fair either.
It's going to be worse before it gets better. The west is going through a phase and all I hope is that would be too destructive. Thankfully, the world isn't made just from "the west", so I guess its not the end for the humanity - yet.
I'm just pointing out that the golden rule requires us to offer human rights even to people who we might think are scum. Because that's the only way to secure those rights for ourselves.
"Humanity" as in "the species homo sapiens sapiens", yes, that will survive.
But "humanity" as in "societies ruled by foundational human rights and democracy"? Not if Trump's USA, China, Russia and Modi's India have their will.
Personally I don't have problem with that, my stuck is with the decay of the west. I like the European way of life, makes me sad to think that it might be coming to an end and that the rest of my life I will have to care deeply about the implications of geopolitics and power instead of more important things higher in the Maslow pyramid.
Sarkozy played no small part in making this happen.
We should absolutely wish for all prisoners to be treated decently, and it is a terrible thing that the matter is only brought up when someone like Sarkozy has to ensure a portion of what regular prisoners endure.
And worst of all, his political followers are all lamenting about the conditions he is in while remaining hardliners for the rest of the prisoners. You are right that OP should not wish ill on Sarkozy, whose distress is real and painful to see. But OP's frustration is understandable to anyone who cares even a little for the welfare of regular prisoners in France.
I mean, jail should be a punishment, right?
Justice as prevention is secondary - and arguably ineffective - or we'd have no crime, no recidivism, no addicts, nobody acting with obviously negative personal outcomes.
The past ~10 years have been a serious masks off moment. I long for who we were in the past, but I sometimes wonder if we ever were that, or if it was just a more well maintained facade. But this current nonsense? Yeah, I'm not particularly upset about giving another bloc having their time in the limelight, because at this point somebody calling what we've become to be grounded on 'foundational human rights and democracy' is plainly nauseating.
"First-world" is Cold War terminology meaning Western countries and their allies, as opposed to second-world Warsaw Pact states and their allies, versus third-world non-aligned states. This would include death penalty states like Pakistan and Iran, who at one point were British dominions.
If we instead mean "developed countries" (as defined by the IMF), then 4 out of 60 developed countries have not abolished the death penalty: they are the United States, Japan, Singapore and Taiwan.
The other 49 states continuing to use the death penalty (including China) are not considered "developed countries" by the IMF.
I guess there are some edge cases. Drug smugglers for example are probably aware of the rough probability of detection and weigh it up against the length of jail time. But I reckon Sarkozy thought he'd just get away with it and didn't even consider what the potential punishment would be.
It's worth considering then that the next person who has the option to do this might behave differently, given Sarkozy has not got away with it.
Sarkozy ran a right wing populist campaign promising "zero tolerance" and being "tough on crime". He helped, through the policies passed under his term, create a huge overcrowding issue within our jail system. It would be only fair for him to experience all of that for himself, after the many heinous crimes he's committed.
I have been opposed to these policies in forever, and advocate for the humane treatment of prisoners. Now that Sarkozy is finally facing some retribution for his crimes, we should all feel sorry for him and bend over backwards to make his life more comfortable. Fuck that. He should reap what he sowed. I don't believe in that "they go low, we go high" bullshit.
To use the example from a sibling comment, if a person kills a child and the father kills this guy out of vengeance .. it will do those children good, who can now live in safety afterwards from that person.
But if in reality the murderer also had family who did not believe he murdered anyone in the first place now set out to seek justice/vengeance, then yes, it becomes a war .. which is why we have courts and police nowdays, but what justice is, is still rather arbitarily defined. Concretely it means enforcing the law. And laws are written by people.
I'll take the time to recommend everybody go see the Northern Lights one time in their lives. Not only are they beautiful, the brain has a hard time contemplating something so huge and far away that the eyes discern no parallax. But unlike the moon and stars, they move!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_by_country#...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependen...
The purposes are punishment are deterrence, retribution, and rehabilitation [1]. (Incapacitation is also typically considered in sentencing.)
The potential deterrence and retributive benefits of cruel have been known for ages. It’s why jailers did it. Those potential benefits are balanced against rehabilitation. But that doesn’t make it the supreme consideration, particularly for crimes of corruption.
It’s not fancy around these parts to give the example of El Salvador, because most of us live in a very comfortable bubble and can pretend we support all these fancy thing of “reintegration and not punishment” but go ask what the people in El Salvador think about how their country got rid of criminal violence.
For a modern look at this, look at the xeer system of Somalia, where victims will almost always prefer payment/compensation over punishment.
Imprisonment is largely an invention of the state, as they push victims and inter-personal conflict aside, and rather use their tools to subordinate the citizen to the order of the state and then charge the victim taxpayers the cost of imprisonment and funnel the money into their buddies running and working the prisons.
Also I Wanted to say that French jail is NO JOKE. You already hurt from inhumane solitary, or else you have a cell with a TV (there is indeed a TV) but to socialize with psychopatic and/or "exotic" people. They're not "kind", and they're not nice.
Even other exotic people had a rough time. It is filled with aggressivity, honor struggles, ect.. JAIL IS NO JOKE. On top of that, it spans a looooong time... You cannot realize how loooong it is to be in jail, it feels forever. People who never went to jail cannot realize that.
I am basically thinking nowadays that jail is torture and it should not be a thing. It is very torture... Let us militate for the end of that.
You're implying that imprisonment makes people offend more - perhaps the simpler explanation is that most criminals will commit crimes when they get the chance, especially prolific criminals. Prison takes them off the streets and stops them victimising more people - this is helpful.
I agree that the point is punishment and deterrence to other public officials, proving no one is truly out of reach of the law.
* An honest acknowledgement of ones behaviour and its impact on others.
* Accepting the consequences of your behaviour, whether legal (such as going to jail), financial, or personal.
* Taking the initiative to make amends where possible.
* Taking steps to improve oneself and/or prevent the same behaviour in future.
I imagine in the latter form, it's easier to get big boys in jail, because simply being defeated once doesn't weaken all future attempts. I could be completely misremembering though.
For a nuanced discussion, the Illustrated Guide to the Law is an excellent introduction. Here's the section on Punishment: https://lawcomic.net/guide/?p=41
It ends with the summary "The State punishes those who commit crimes partly in the hope of preventing future offenses (via rehabilitation, deterrence, and removal)... partly to restore a sense of balance and fairness (via retribution)... and partly because fuck you, that’s why (retaliation)"
You kill a single mom and her children for fun , those people shouldn’t suffer consequences for that ?
Sarkozy is at the root of much prison violence, but we should feel sorry for him now that he's facing prison himself? I won't. I am merely wishing for him to get a taste of his own medicine, not to be subjected to senseless, uncalled for physical violence.
I'll link you aaplok's comment, somewhere else on this thread, that summarizes my viewpoint with much more verve than I: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45667285
The reason the answer is not clear is attitudes to Retributive Justice vary widely across cultures and political systems. In OECD countries, the dominant (but not universal view) is there is no role for Retributive Justice in a modern society.
That is my position. The reason I don't think vengeance should be part of Justice is it's counter productive. The role of society as I see it, is to create an environment that produces nice things for myself and my family, so we prosper. I think it's self evident having as many people as possible working hard maximises this.
Justice is a unfortunate blight on that. Producing nice things requires people to work cooperatively, people working cooperatively requires rules. You can't have someone kill another for food when they could be working on a farm instead, so we have a rule for that. The role of Justice is to encourage people to follow those rules, so Justice is necessary too. But Justice is costly. It requires police, lawyers, judges, and jails. It removes people who could be producing nice things from society and makes them a burden to carry instead. "An eye for an eye" sounds equitable, but it means there are now two people without an eye instead of one. There have been calculations on what the Justice systems costs a typical OECD country. The answer seems to be around 2% of GDP. For the USA, that's about $600 billion per year.
Because of that large cost to me it is self evident you want as little Justice as possible. Just enough so just about everyone follows the rules, and no more. If you are forced to productive people from society and feed, house, and protect them in a jail, then you should strive to redirect, educate, and train them so when released they will become productive, and produce nice things. For me. This is called rehabilitation. Every modern society preaches rehabilitation over vengeance, but not all do it.
So what rule does vengeance play in this? Vengeance is by definition punishing people more than rehabilitation requires. Thus it costs money to extract vengeance. Sometimes a lot of money. In my country jailing someone for life means it costs my government $300/day, potentially for decades. That means I have less nice things. It even means the victim has less nice things, in the end. After all, that money could be paying for teachers and schools, to educate the victims kids. The conclusion most most people in OECD societies have drawn from that is vengeance has no role in Justice.
In this view, the becoming the victim of a crime is no different to any another unfortunate event, like losing your house to a storm, or becoming the victim of a plane crash, or dying from cancer. You don't get to seek vengeance for those events, so why should being the victim of a crime be any different? Adding to that, you are not entirely powerless against random destructive events. You can insure against them. Crime is no different. We can and do insure against the ill effects of crime.
If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.
If you'd please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it.
But what Israel is doing isn't war and the innocents they're killing aren't unfortunate 'collateral damage.' They're primarily and purposefully killing civilians that had absolutely nothing to do with what aggrieves Israel, exactly the same as Nazi Germany was killing Jews who had absolutely nothing to do with their grievances. And they're doing this only thanks to American weapons and technology.
After all is said and done, Israel will claim victory, yet Hamas will likely be dramatically larger than ever, at least if there are any Gazans left, simply because each person whose brother, father, or child was killed by Israel is now going to hold a life-long death grudge against Israel, in the same way that Jews still seek out what few remaining Nazis there are, when they aren't getting standing ovations in the Canadian parliament at least (more of those 'foundational human rights' being displayed). And this is because genocide has nothing to do with war - it's something uniquely abhorrent.
