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559 points cxr | 108 comments | | HN request time: 0.86s | source | bottom
1. WarOnPrivacy ◴[] No.44476845[source]
I drive a Toyota that is nearly old enough to run for US Senator. Every control in the car is visible, clearly labeled and is distinct to the touch - at all times. The action isn't impeded by routine activity or maintenance (ex:battery change).

Because it can be trivially duplicated, this is minimally capable engineering. Yet automakers everywhere lack even this level of competence. By reasonable measure, they are poor at their job.

replies(13): >>44476881 #>>44476892 #>>44477024 #>>44477518 #>>44477594 #>>44477656 #>>44478016 #>>44478375 #>>44480180 #>>44480505 #>>44481914 #>>44482166 #>>44482519 #
2. staplers ◴[] No.44476881[source]

  Because it can be trivially duplicated
While I agree with your sentiment, designing and manufacturing custom molds for each knob and function (including premium versions) instead of just slapping a screen on the dash does have a cost.
replies(2): >>44476906 #>>44476911 #
3. aikinai ◴[] No.44476892[source]
It's cost, not competence. These days making a touch screen is easier and cheaper than manufacturing and assembling lots of little buttons and knobs.
replies(7): >>44476984 #>>44477057 #>>44477062 #>>44477068 #>>44477087 #>>44477266 #>>44477517 #
4. marginalia_nu ◴[] No.44476906[source]
Has this cost risen?

Why is this so expensive it can't even be put into a premium car today when it used to be ubiquitous in even the cheapest hardware a few decades ago?

replies(5): >>44477023 #>>44477054 #>>44477163 #>>44477252 #>>44477721 #
5. WarOnPrivacy ◴[] No.44476911[source]
> designing and manufacturing custom molds for each knob and function ... dash does have a cost.

Manufacturing car components already involves designing and custom molds, does it not? Compared to the final purchase price, the cost of adding knobs to that stack seems inconsequential.

replies(2): >>44476927 #>>44477263 #
6. antisthenes ◴[] No.44476927{3}[source]
Yeah, seems like a really weird cope to defend the automakers.

Your average transmission will have an order of magnitude more parts that also needed to be designed and produced with much higher precision.

The interior knob controls are just a rounding error in the cost structure.

7. gaudystead ◴[] No.44476984[source]
One of the reasons I purchased a (newer but used Mazda) was because it still has buttons and knobs right next to the driver's right hand in the center console. I can operate parts of the car without even having to look.

(another reason was because it still has a geared transmission instead of a CVT, but that's a separate discussion)

replies(2): >>44477203 #>>44477318 #
8. cortesoft ◴[] No.44477023{3}[source]
No, but every cost cut is additional profit
9. aspenmayer ◴[] No.44477024[source]
Power abhors a vacuum. Choosing to not change is viewed as failure to innovate, even if the design suffers. Planned obsolescence is as old as the concept of yearly production models themselves, and likely older, going back to replacement parts manufacturing and standardized production overtaking piecework.

It’s a race to the bottom to be the least enshittified versus your market competitors. Usability takes a backseat to porcine beauty productization.

10. const_cast ◴[] No.44477054{3}[source]
Because most companies are ruthless penny-pinchers and over-optimizers. They're willing to burn dollars to save pennies. The reason is that they're trading things they can measure for things they can't.

Basically, if you remove the knobs you can save, say, 10 dollars on every vehicle. In return, you have made your car less attractive and will lose a small number of sales. You will never, ever be able to quantify that loss in sales. So, on paper, you've saved money for "free".

Typically, opportunity cost is impossible or close to impossible to measure. What these companies think they are doing is minimizing cost. Often, they are just maximizing opportunity cost of various decisions. Everyone is trying to subtly cut quality over time.

Going from A quality to B quality is pretty safe, it's likely close to zero consumers will notice. But then you say "well we went from A to B and nobody noticed, so nobody will notice B to C!". So you do it again. Then over and over. And, eventually, you go from a brand known for quality to cheap bargain-bin garbage. And it happened so slowly that leadership is left scratching their heads. Sometimes the company then implodes spontaneously, other times it slowly rots and loses to competitors. It's so common it feels almost inevitable.

Really, most companies don't have to do much to stay successful. For a lot of markets, they just have to keep doing what they're doing. Ah, but the taste of cost-cutting is much too seductive. They do not understand what they are risking.

replies(1): >>44477141 #
11. PoshBreeze ◴[] No.44477057[source]
This is often repeated but I don't believe this for a second. I have an 90s vehicle which is based on 60/70s technology. A switch for a fog light is like £10 on ebay for a replacement and I know I am not paying anywhere near cost i.e. I am being ripped off.
replies(2): >>44477122 #>>44480336 #
12. Aeolun ◴[] No.44477062[source]
I’m not sure if this is actually true for the volumes produced by the big carmakers. You’d very quickly get to volumes that make the largest component the material cost.
13. WarOnPrivacy ◴[] No.44477068[source]
> It's cost, not competence.

This implies it's a consequential cost. Building with tactile controls would take the (already considerable) purchase price and boost that high enough to impact sales.

If tactile controls were a meaningful cost difference, then budget cars with tactile controls shouldn't be common - in any market.

replies(1): >>44477485 #
14. seanmcdirmid ◴[] No.44477087[source]
Not just that, wiring it in to the single control bus is easier, otherwise you are stuck doing an analog to digital conversion anyways. Even new cars that have separate controls, these are mostly capacitive buttons or dials that simply send a fixed signal on the bus (so your dial will go all the way around, because it isn't actually the single volume control on the radio, but just a turn the volume up or down control).

Most of the cost savings is in having a single bus to wire up through the car, then everything needs a little computer in it to send on that bus...so a screen wins out.

replies(1): >>44477186 #
15. seanmcdirmid ◴[] No.44477122{3}[source]
I'm pretty sure that simple switch is something directly in the circuit for the fog light, and there is a dedicated wire between the fog light, the switch, and the fuse box. And if its an old Jag, those wires flake out and have to be redone at great expense.

Compare this to the databus that is used in today's cars, it really isn't even a fair comparison on cost (you don't have to have 100 wires running through different places in your car, just one bus to 100 things and signal is separated from power).

replies(2): >>44477190 #>>44480412 #
16. rileymat2 ◴[] No.44477141{4}[source]
> Basically, if you remove the knobs you can save, say, 10 dollars on every vehicle. In return, you have made your car less attractive and will lose a small number of sales.

Is there evidence that fancy looking screens don't show better in the showroom than legacy looking knobs and buttons? Where under use, they may be better, I am not sure all that sells better.

replies(2): >>44477199 #>>44478407 #
17. criddell ◴[] No.44477163{3}[source]
Because cars have long design times and a big touchscreen have generally been seen as more premium than a bunch of push buttons and dials. I think the tide has turned somewhat, but it’s going to take some time.
18. bluGill ◴[] No.44477186{3}[source]
Most of the seeming analog controls on cars switched to digital in the 1990s. The digital control bus saved several hundred dollars per car. It still looked analog until around 2010 when touch screen started taking over.
replies(1): >>44477465 #
19. PoshBreeze ◴[] No.44477190{4}[source]
> I'm pretty sure that simple switch is something directly in the circuit for the fog light, and there is a dedicated wire between the fog light, the switch, and the fuse box. And if its an old Jag, those wires flake out and have to be redone at great expense.

I don't really want to get into a big debate about this as I haven't worked on Jags, but I don't believe that replacing parts of the loom is would be that expensive. Remaking an entire loom, I will admit that would expensive as that would be a custom job with a lot of labour.

> Compare this to the databus that is used in today's cars, it really isn't even a fair comparison on cost (you don't have to have 100 wires running through different places in your car, just one bus to 100 things and signal is separated from power).

Ok fine. But the discussion was button vs touch screens and there is nothing preventing buttons being used with the newer databus design. I am pretty sure older BMWs, Mercs etc worked this way.

replies(1): >>44477355 #
20. const_cast ◴[] No.44477199{5}[source]
No, there isn't. Like I said, the opportunity cost is invisible and impossible to measure.

All I know is personal anecdotes from people I talk to. I know a couple people who have a Mercedes EQS - they've all said the same thing: the big screen is cool for a little bit, then it's just annoying.

I think it will take a generation or two of cars before some consumers start holding back on purchases because of this. For now, they don't know better. But I'm sure after owning a car and being pissed off at it, they'll think a little bit harder on their next purchase. I think consumers are highly impacted by these types of things - small cuts that aren't bad, per se, but are annoying. Consumers are emotional, they hold grudges, they get pissed off.

I sort of feel the same way about fix-a-flat kits. Once people actually have the experience of trying to use a fix-a-flat kit, they'll start asking car salesmen if the car comes with a spare...

replies(1): >>44477541 #
21. bluGill ◴[] No.44477203{3}[source]
My newer phev saves me a large pile of money ever month in gas. Not as much as payments, but closer than you would think.
replies(1): >>44480250 #
22. bluGill ◴[] No.44477252{3}[source]
It was always expensive. Car makers need their cars to last (the used market is imbortant since few can afford a new car the scrap in 3 years) so they are not buying the cheap switches. a cherry mx will run near a dollar each in quantity. Then you put the cap an it plus wires and it adds up fast per switch. A touch screen is $75 in quantity and replaces many switches.
23. bluGill ◴[] No.44477263{3}[source]
Yes, but the touch screen is one large mold. The button needs a custom mold for each button. The touch screen also has large flat areas with reduces cost since is prevents extra cost round shapes.
24. djoldman ◴[] No.44477266[source]
Is this true given all the chips modern cars have, all the programming that must be done, and all the complex testing and QA required for the multitude of extra function?

I would gladly gladly keep my AC, heat, hazards, blinkers, wipers, maybe a few other buttons and that's it. I don't need back cameras, lane assist, etc.

I find it hard to believe it's cheaper to have all the cameras, chips, and other digital affordances rather than a small number of analog buttons and functions.

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25. bongodongobob ◴[] No.44477282{3}[source]
You're not thinking about the manufacturing part. Buttons and knobs have to get assembled and physically put into every car. Software just needs to be written once.
26. grugagag ◴[] No.44477318{3}[source]
Look ma, I can change the air conditioning controls without looking moment.

A friend got a tesla on lease and it was quite cheap, 250/month. Been driven in that car a few times and was able to study the driver using the controls and it’s hideusly badly designed, driver has to take eyes off the road and deep dive in menus. Plus that slapped tablet in the middle is busy to look at, tiring and distacting. The 3d view of other cars/ pedestrians is a gimmick, or at least it looks like one to me. Does anyone actually like that? Perhaps im outdated or something but I wouldn’t consider such a bad UX in a car.

replies(1): >>44479785 #
27. seanmcdirmid ◴[] No.44477355{5}[source]
They can be used, they just need more complexity than a simple switch that completes a circuit, they now have tiny cpus so they can signal the bus correctly. The switch must broadcast turn thing on when the switch is set to on, and then turn thing off when the switch is set to off, all with whatever serial protocol being used (including back off and retry, etc. ..). So your input devices need to be little computers so that you can use one bus for everything, now you can see where one touch screen begins to save money.
replies(3): >>44478023 #>>44478469 #>>44481253 #
28. seanmcdirmid ◴[] No.44477465{4}[source]
Probably in 2010 the price of the touch screen began to out compete the price of the analog controls on the bus.
29. hinterlands ◴[] No.44477485{3}[source]
Are controls uniquely important, though? There are hundreds of things in a car that could be made better (more durable, longer lasting, better looking) for just $10 to $100 extra a piece. But it adds up.

It's not just cost, though. The reality is that consumers like the futuristic look, in theory (i.e., at the time of the purchase). Knobs look dated. It's the same reason why ridiculously glossy laptop screens were commonplace. They weren't cheaper to make, they just looked cool.

replies(2): >>44477511 #>>44477970 #
30. cwillu ◴[] No.44477511{4}[source]
Yes, controls are uniquely important.
31. gblargg ◴[] No.44477517[source]
It allows UI designers to add nearly endless settings and controls where they were before limited by dash space. It's similar to how everything having flash for firmware allows shipping buggy products that they justify because they can always fix it with a firmware update.
replies(1): >>44479747 #
32. makeitdouble ◴[] No.44477518[source]
I'm sympathetic , but think it's a disservice to the designers to present it like that:

> Every control in the car is visible

No. And that would be horrible.

Every control _critically needed while driving_ is visible and accessible. Controls that matter less can be smaller and more convoluted, or straight hidden.

The levers to adjust seat high and positions are hidden while still accessible. The latch to open the car good can (should ?) be less accessible and can be harder to find.

There are a myriad of subtle and opinionated choices to make the interface efficient. There's nothing trivial or really "simple" about that design process, and IMHO brushing over that is part of what leads us to the current situation where car makers just ignore these considerations.

replies(5): >>44478685 #>>44480195 #>>44480980 #>>44481296 #>>44481300 #
33. elwebmaster ◴[] No.44477541{6}[source]
And not every consumer has to feel the pain to know. Many, like myself, have seen others suffer and have made their mind of not buying such a car.
34. ◴[] No.44477594[source]
35. hahn-kev ◴[] No.44477650{3}[source]
In some countries it's a legal requirement to have a backup camera, which means you need a screen to display it, and hardware to render it.
replies(3): >>44479423 #>>44479721 #>>44480268 #
36. citizenpaul ◴[] No.44477656[source]
I commented on here about the surge in US car mfg recruiters contacting me about working on their new car systems. The HN opinion seemed to that they are complete disasters and stay away if I value my sanity.
37. jama211 ◴[] No.44477721{3}[source]
Because being more expensive than a competitor for something most consumers don’t care about is a hit to sales.
38. riknos314 ◴[] No.44477970{4}[source]
> knobs look dated

Not all. Knobs designed with dated designs and/or materials look dated. There's a million ways to make a knob, just use a modern or novel one.

replies(1): >>44478698 #
39. _kidlike ◴[] No.44478016[source]
I had similar discussions with my father who started his career in the 80s as an engineer, and has been a CEO for the last ~15 years. The discussion was a bit broader, about engineering and quality/usability in everything.

His perspective was that companies were "run" by engineers first, then a few decades later by managers, and then by marketing.

Who knows what's next, maybe nothing (as in all decisions are accidentally made by AI because everyone at all levels just asks AI). Could be better than our current marketing-driven universe.

replies(1): >>44479965 #
40. PoshBreeze ◴[] No.44478023{6}[source]
I don't believe what you are describing is necessary. I am pretty sure you could have a module where the switches are wired normally into something and that communicates with the main bus. I am pretty sure this is how a lot of cars already work from watching people work on more modern vehicles.

In any event. I've never heard a good explanation of why I need all of this to turn the lights on or off in a car, when much simpler systems worked perfectly fine.

replies(1): >>44480311 #
41. swiftcoder ◴[] No.44478375[source]
The good news over here is that the European NCAP is now mandating they put a bunch of those physical controls back if they want a 5-star safety rating. Would not be sorry to say good bye to the awful touchscreen UI in my car...
replies(1): >>44478773 #
42. troupo ◴[] No.44478407{5}[source]
The problem isn't just that. These screens are actual safety hazards. Whatever you display in a showroom doesn't justify this: https://grumpy.website/1665
43. sheiyei ◴[] No.44478469{6}[source]
Ah, the classic "a keyboard has a CPU for each key" argument
44. ringeryless ◴[] No.44478685[source]
i disagree. i only want minimalist functionality and therefore it's reasonable to have ALL controls always present and physical. someone needs to have the courage to say no to features that will get people killed. a simple gun doesn't jam in the heat of battle. u my 1989 Toyota corolla has manual windows and that is great.
replies(3): >>44479010 #>>44480406 #>>44481179 #
45. ykonstant ◴[] No.44478698{5}[source]
Thank you; this ridiculous non-argument also pollutes discussion on GUI/UX. "Skeuomorphism looks outdated"--no, skeuomorphism that looks like old UIs looks dated, by definition, but that does not mean it is the only way to design tactile UIs.

It is the job (and in my opinion, an exciting challenge) for the UI designers to come up with a modern looking tactile design based on the principles of skeuomorphism, possibly amalgamated with the results of newer HCI research.

replies(1): >>44481245 #
46. Marazan ◴[] No.44478773[source]
Now they just need to fix their testing of pedestrian collisions with SUVs and I can go back to praising EuroNCAP.
replies(1): >>44480164 #
47. Marazan ◴[] No.44478778{3}[source]
Knobs (plus mechanical circuitry) that can survive 100k miles of use are expensive.
48. kergonath ◴[] No.44478856{3}[source]
> I would gladly gladly keep my AC, heat, hazards, blinkers, wipers, maybe a few other buttons and that's it. I don't need back cameras, lane assist, etc.

I would pay more for decent physical switches and knobs, but I would give up AC before the backup camera. Getting this was life changing. I also wish all cars had some kind of blind spot monitoring.

replies(1): >>44482587 #
49. freddie_mercury ◴[] No.44479010{3}[source]
Simple guns jam all the time bro. Even 100 year old super simple designs jam.
replies(1): >>44480194 #
50. zabzonk ◴[] No.44479423{4}[source]
which countries?
replies(1): >>44479607 #
51. pynappo ◴[] No.44479607{5}[source]
For new cars, US/Canada since 2018, Japan/EU since 2022

https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Backup_camera

52. echoangle ◴[] No.44479721{4}[source]
> and hardware to render it

Not really, you legally could have a video camera and a CRT as a backup camera. I wouldn't say that anything is rendered in an analog video system.

replies(1): >>44480641 #
53. hulitu ◴[] No.44479747{3}[source]
> It allows UI designers to add nearly endless settings and controls where they were before limited by dash space

Except, they don't do it.

Just like your Windows PC is capable of drawing a raised or sunked 3D button, or a scrollbar, but, they don't do it anymore.

replies(1): >>44480891 #
54. jeroenhd ◴[] No.44479753{3}[source]
Both lane assist and backup cameras are mandatory safety systems for new cars in the EU. Same goes for things like tired driver detection and other stuff that was considered opulent luxury ten years ago.

With the land tanks we call SUVs today, I can imagine it wasn't hard for politicians to decide that mirrors are no longer enough to navigate a car backwards.

Still, you don't need touch screens. Lane assist can be a little indicator on a dashboard with a toggle somewhere if you want to turn it off, it doesn't need a menu. A backup camera can be a screen tucked away in the dash that's off unless you've put your car in reverse. We may need processing to happen somewhere, but it doesn't need to happen in a media console with a touch screen.

replies(1): >>44479987 #
55. hulitu ◴[] No.44479769{3}[source]
> I find it hard to believe it's cheaper to have all the cameras, chips, and other digital affordances rather than a small number of analog buttons and functions.

You should check how SW and HW are tested in the car.

A typical SW test is: Requirement: SW must drive a motor if voltage reaches 5 V. A typical SW test is: Increase the voltage to 5 V, see that the motor moves.

Now what happenes at 20 V is left as an exercise for the user.

56. jeroenhd ◴[] No.44479785{4}[source]
The 3D view is a marketing gimmick and maybe something to show off to your passengers. You've for a massive screen, so you can't just leave it empty, the owners would realize it's a gimmick.

In practice many drivers seem to be dealing fine with the touch screen because they've stopped paying attention to the road, trusting their car to keep distance and pay attention for them. Plus, most of the touch screen controls aren't strictly necessary while driving, they mostly control luxury features that you could set up after pulling over.

replies(1): >>44479932 #
57. milkshakes ◴[] No.44479932{5}[source]
luxury features like... the windshield wiper

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-53666222

58. amelius ◴[] No.44479965[source]
The free market does not optimize for quality.
59. everdrive ◴[] No.44479987{4}[source]
You can actually put a backup camera in the rearview mirror. Back before rollover protection cars had quite amazing visibility. Best vehicle visibility I've had in the past 5 years was actually a 1997 F-150. You'd think it's a big truck, but you could more or less see all around you, and it didn't have that crazy high front hood either.
replies(1): >>44480340 #
60. Xss3 ◴[] No.44480164{3}[source]
Don't forget the headlight regulations desperately need an update. RAC survey said 89% think some are too bright, 30% think *most* are too bright. Insane.
61. BrtByte ◴[] No.44480180[source]
It's wild how we've come full circle. It's baffling how something so simple and effective has been abandoned in favor of glossy screens and guesswork
62. bluGill ◴[] No.44480194{4}[source]
All guns can jam. However a simpler design has less potential to jam.
replies(2): >>44482172 #>>44482222 #
63. BrtByte ◴[] No.44480195[source]
The older designs weren't perfect, but they generally respected that you might need to adjust something without thinking too hard or taking your eyes off the road
64. sokoloff ◴[] No.44480250{4}[source]
At an average 14K miles per year and a guessed 25 mpg, that’s 560 gallons/year. At $4/gallon (guessed and well over the US average), that’s $2240/yr.

If you exclusively charged with completely free electricity and still managed to drive that 14K miles in a year, you’d save $187/mo.

If it moved you from 25mpg to 40mpge, it’d save you a little over $70/mo.

Our two cars are a BEV and a hybrid, so I’m no battery-hater, but neither is cheaper than a reasonable gas-only equivalent would be.

replies(1): >>44482486 #
65. ludicrousdispla ◴[] No.44480268{4}[source]
I have always thought they should put the display for the backup camera behind the driver and facing the front of the car, so that it would be easily visible to a driver looking out the rear and rear-side windows while backing up.
replies(1): >>44480632 #
66. sokoloff ◴[] No.44480311{7}[source]
Many of the low-speed switches are connected to a single controller that then interfaces over LIN or CAN to the car.

Reducing the copper content of cars and reducing the size of the wiring bundles that have to pass through grommets to doors, in body channels, etc. was the main driver. Offering greater interconnectedness and (eventually) reliability was a nice side effect.

It used to be a pain in the ass to get the parking lights to flash some kind of feedback for remote locking, remote start, etc. Now, it’s two signals on the CAN bus.

replies(1): >>44480450 #
67. sokoloff ◴[] No.44480336{3}[source]
You think you’re being ripped off for a £10 fog light switch on a ~30 year old car?

That sounds like an incredible bargain to me.

Why do you think you should pay near cost? What’s the incentive for all the people who had to make, test, box, pack, move, finance, unpack, inventory, pick, box, label, and send it to you? I can’t imagine the price between £10 and free that you’d think wasn’t a rip-off for a part that probably sells well under a 100 units per year worldwide.

replies(1): >>44480784 #
68. anton-c ◴[] No.44480340{5}[source]
Yeah my big old truck has basically no blind spot. I'm getting a new work vehicle soon and am going to need to retrain my brain hard.
69. makeitdouble ◴[] No.44480406{3}[source]
IMHO we'd need to ban anything fancier than a bare bone golf cart if we're following the principles you're describing. Not that I'd disagree with that either, I genuinely think it would have a positive impact on cities, and even most rural towns; especially as the population is growing older in so many places.
70. sokoloff ◴[] No.44480412{4}[source]
Depending on age, it’s more likely that the physical switch drives an electric relay and the relay switches the actual fog lamp current which could be 3-5amps per lamp, letting the manufacturer use a small gauge trigger wire to run to/from the dash and thicker wire only for the shorter high-current path.
71. PoshBreeze ◴[] No.44480450{8}[source]
OK, thanks for the explanation.

> Offering greater interconnected news and (eventually) reliability was a nice side effect.

I am not sure about that. You still suffer from electronic problems due to corrosion around the plugs, duff sockets and dodgy earths as the vehicle ages.

72. animal531 ◴[] No.44480505[source]
Youtuber/Engineer William Osman had a great rant some time back when he bought a new microwave and it came with a ton of buttons, his argument being that a microwave only really needs one (and ideally its just a dial instead of a button).

My previous one lasted more than 20 years, from when my parents bought it for me when I went to study until some time in my 40s. It was still functional, but its dial had become loose and it didn't look that great anymore.

The one I bought after that follows the new pattern, it has buttons up the wazoo and who even knows what they do? To be honest I just need one power setting with a time and maybe a defrost option?

replies(5): >>44481282 #>>44481594 #>>44481631 #>>44482627 #>>44485553 #
73. Andrex ◴[] No.44480632{5}[source]
That could be an accessibility issue for people with neck problems. I can see why general legislation put it at the front with everything else.
replies(1): >>44481213 #
74. Andrex ◴[] No.44480641{5}[source]
The last thing I'd want in an accident is a little CRT exploding glass shards next to me.
75. PoshBreeze ◴[] No.44480784{4}[source]
I shouldn't have worded it that way. I wanted to stress that the £10 would have been way more than the price per unit if there was a bulk order.

As for it being a bit of a rip off yes it was a little bit. I found the same part for cheaper literally the next day.

In any-event. It isn't the important part of what I was trying to communicate.

76. TeMPOraL ◴[] No.44480891{4}[source]
The real cost saving is in the touch panel being a single component. It eliminates the need to optimize UI in physical space, and decouples the UI design and testing from the rest of the car design and manufacturing process. As a bonus, both hardware and software for the panel can then be outsourced do the lowest bidder or bought as a bottom-of-the-barrel COTS package.
77. mystified5016 ◴[] No.44480980[source]
If that's the case, why not simply delete all controls and shove them into a smartphone app?

Right, because it's fucking ridiculous to expect a driver to fumble through menus while driving.

78. threetonesun ◴[] No.44481179{3}[source]
Manual windows and not being able to control all 4 (or more) from the drivers seat is a considerable downgrade in usability.
replies(1): >>44511507 #
79. LtWorf ◴[] No.44481213{6}[source]
Perhaps people who can't turn their head shouldn't be driving?
replies(1): >>44503528 #
80. LtWorf ◴[] No.44481245{6}[source]
But designers just copy each other… they don't come up with things.
81. LtWorf ◴[] No.44481253{6}[source]
You can have hundreds of switches closing circuits all connected to a device that is connected to the can bus.
82. yoz-y ◴[] No.44481282[source]
When I was looking to buy a microwave myself I wanted to buy one that has exactly two dials and two buttons.

Power, time, start, stop.

It turns out that luckily there is one like that made. The Y4ZM25MMK. Also as bonus no clock.

That said, I realized only very late that the function dial actually has a marker to show which function it selects. An extremely shallow colorless groove.

83. yoz-y ◴[] No.44481296[source]
I think there is a difference between “hidden” (like the notification and control centers on an iPhone) and “out of the way less visible but still there”, like a car seat adjustment lever on the side of the seat.
replies(1): >>44485882 #
84. xg15 ◴[] No.44481300[source]
I think Blizzard got this right in StarCraft and WarCraft III. During a game, there is a 3x3 (or 3x5) grid on the bottom right that sort of looks like a numpad. When you have units selected, the grid will show the actions, and only those actions, that correspond to those units.

Technically, you never see "all" actions - you only see the actions that make sense for the selected units. However, because there is a predictable place where the actions will show up, and because you know those are all the actions that are there, it never feels confusing.

On the contrary, it lets you quickly learn what the different skills are for each unit.

There is also a "default" action that will happen when you right-click somewhere on the map. What this default action will do is highly context specific and irregular: e.g. right-clicking on an enemy unit will trigger an attack order, but only if your selected unit actually has a matching weapon, otherwise it will trigger a move order. Right-clicking a resource item will issue a "mine" order, but only if you have selected a worker, etc etc.

Instead of trying to teach you all those rules, or to let you guess what the action is doing, the UI has two simple rules:

- How the default action is chosen may be complicated, but it will always be one of the actions from the grid.

- If a unit is following an action, that action will be highlighted in the grid.

This means the grid doubles as a status display to show you not just what the unit could do but also what it is currently doing. It also lets you learn the specifics of the default action by yourself, because if you right-click somewhere, the grid will highlight the action that was issued.

The irony is that in the actual game, you almost always use the default action and very rarely actually click the buttons in the grid. But I think the grid is still essential for those reasons: As a status display and to let you give an order explicitly if the default isn't doing what you want it to do.

The counterexample would be the C&C games: The UI there only has the right-click mechanic, without any buttons, with CTRL and ALT as modifier keys if you want to give different orders. But you're much more on your own to memorize what combination of CTRL, ALT, selected unit, target unit and click will issue which order.

replies(1): >>44482754 #
85. rekabis ◴[] No.44481594[source]
> a microwave only really needs one (and ideally its just a dial instead of a button).

The 1967 Amana Radarange (https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2017/08/28/microwave_custom...) had two dials: short duration under 5 minutes and a long duration out to something like 30 minutes.

My parents still have theirs. It needs some resto love, but it’s still fully functional. I’ve already put my foot down in terms of who’s inheriting it.

86. tikhonj ◴[] No.44481631[source]
I have a commercial microwave with exactly one dial[1]. It's great. It's more expensive than a "normal" microwave, but the UI is great, the construction is really solid and it's easy to clean. There's no external moving parts—no annoying rotating tray on the inside, and no visible latch on the door. It's clearly meant to take some abuse.

At first it was a bit annoying because frozen meals sometimes want you to run it at lower power and this microwave has no power setting. If that's a problem, I imagine there's some other similar model that does. But in practice, just running it at full power for shorter seems to work just as well.

It would look much nicer if it didn't have a cooking guide printed on it.

In Europe, I saw some consumer-grade microwaves with similarly minimalist designs, like these Gorenje microwaves[2] with two dials. I'd have gotten one of those, but I couldn't easily find them in the US. But I also did not look especially hard.

[1]: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00ZTVIPZ2?ref_=ppx_hzsearch_conn_...

[2]: https://international.gorenje.com/products/cooking-and-bakin...

replies(1): >>44482635 #
87. CommenterPerson ◴[] No.44481914[source]
Lots of comments that a few plastic knobs, switches, wiring add to the cost. Yes. But buttons and knobs are more intuitive, less distracting, can be operated blind while keeping eyes on the road.

So guess what Mr.Auto Manufacturer, you can keep your hifi $30K-70K touchscreen surveillance machine on your lot. I'll keep driving my 20+ year old Corolla until you learn to do better.

88. regnull ◴[] No.44482166[source]
I notice an interesting phenomenon here and elsewhere. There is this complaint where everyone agrees that the current state of affairs sucks. There are some (perhaps limited, but still) ways to improve it, and yet, they don’t get much traction. My very brief research produced this list of cars with limited touch screens:

Toyota 4Runner, Toyota Tacoma, Jeep Wrangler, Nissan Frontier, Ford Maverick, Ford Bronco, Jeep Gladiator, Mazda MX-5 Miata

I wonder what kind of cars do you guys drive.

Stranger still, if someone comes up with an idea of how to improve that thing that sucks, frequently the reaction is very negative. Sadly, the whole thing more and more gets into “old man yelling at the cloud” territory.

89. okanat ◴[] No.44482172{5}[source]
I think this is a bad analogy made with good intentions. Guns jam because the physical nature of the material is simply degradation. You need to actively fight against it by producing higher precision guns, use more advanced / tougher materials and come up with mechanisms that would reduce the possibility. That's far from simple.
replies(1): >>44484540 #
90. IX-103 ◴[] No.44482222{5}[source]
That's not true. Preventing jams can actually require more complicated designs. To avoid jams the device should limit the range of motion a device is capable of and deal with dirt and debris. That can require additional parts to stabilize the motion, sealed components, specialized alloys to match thermal expansion, or more complicated motions that clear contaminants.
replies(1): >>44482438 #
91. bluGill ◴[] No.44482438{6}[source]
Or you can step back to a basic bolt action that has less moving parts. The slow cycle times mean you can ignore thermo expansion - just let it cool.
replies(1): >>44484680 #
92. bluGill ◴[] No.44482486{5}[source]
that is a large pile of money saved there, but not as much as payments.

Still cars don't last forever - my pervious minivan needed a transmission rebuild so we can cut the cost of the replacement by 10000 since either way that money is spent and now the newer van is break even on payments and it should still work after it is paid off for a few years.

93. dfxm12 ◴[] No.44482519[source]
By reasonable measure, they are poor at their job.

I don't think you can make this assertion without knowing what they were tasked with doing. I very much doubt they were tasked with making the most user friendly cockpit possible. I suspect they were required to minimize moving parts (like switches and buttons) and to enable things like Sirius, iPhone and Android integration, etc.

94. Modified3019 ◴[] No.44482587{4}[source]
Same. It is a bit curious, at first I didn’t care for them for some reason. Not outright against, just a bit negative on it. I can’t even remember exactly why.

If I had to guess, it’s because it’s so closely associated with the awful to use touch controlled center console. That and “new features” in general tend to take away from the ease of use and durability of the vehicle.

It may also have to do with now having an additional place to look during a stressful activity, which I’ve now fully adapted to.

I’m 100% on board with it now, if I had a vehicle without one I’d retrofit one. I also want side and front cameras.

I’ve got a big stupid truck (work provided) with a 140” wheelbase that I use for my agriculture job to transport my ATV (my real work vehicle) around. I absolutely hate the bloated, boxy, dangerous designs of modern pickups. Frankly they should be banned and forced to look stupid via visibility and child collision safety requirements.

95. vel0city ◴[] No.44482627[source]
My current microwave is 20 years old. It has a lot of buttons. I love the buttons it has. It's sensor modes are spot on.

I stab a potato and cover it in butter and salt, put it on a plate, press "potato" and it's cooked just perfect every time. Doesn't matter if it's big or small, it's just right.

When I have a plate of leftovers I just press reheat and it's perfect pretty much every time. Could be pork chops and Mac and cheese, could be a spaghetti with marinara sauce, could be whatever. Toss it in, lightly cover, press reheat, and it's good.

When I want to quickly thaw out some ground beef or ground sausage, I just toss it in, press defrost, put in a weight to a tenth of a pound, and it's defrosted without really being cooked yet.

Back when I microwaved popcorn, just pressing the popcorn button was spot on. Didn't matter what the bag size was, didn't matter the brand, the bag was always pretty much fully popped and not burned.

Despite being the same age it's still in excellent working order while yours with the dials fell apart.

96. miki123211 ◴[] No.44482635{3}[source]
How does a microwave without a rotating tray even work?

Most microwaves only have the magnetron (the part actually producing the microwaves) on one side. The rotation is needed to cook your food evenly.

This is why food in the middle of the tray often ends up undercooked. No matter how the tray rotates, that part is never particularly close to it.

replies(1): >>44483576 #
97. fouronnes3 ◴[] No.44482754{3}[source]
There's a lot to be studied about Blizzard games UI. Blizzard is really good at UI.
replies(1): >>44482950 #
98. xg15 ◴[] No.44482950{4}[source]
Yep, fully agreed. Also finding it interesting how they kept extending and improving this and other patterns throughout the games. This particular one was used in SC1, WC3 and SC2 (and maybe others that I don't know) and you could see the improvements in each one.

(OK, just for fairness: StarCraft also has hidden features that are only reachable through modifier keys, like the entire grouping and command chaining systems - and C&C does have some feedback: They do indicate the action by changing the cursor icon. So there are flaws, but I still find Blizzard's system more consistent and information-rich.)

99. tfvlrue ◴[] No.44483576{4}[source]
These commercial microwaves have a ceramic tray (transparent to microwaves) that the food sits on. It fills the entire bottom of the microwave. Underneath the tray is a small piece of metal bent into a particular shape attached to a spindle that rotates. The idea being that it spins around the reflected microwaves rather than the food itself.

For a visual aid, these are pictures of the replacements parts: https://www.partstown.com/panasonic/PANA010T8K10AP https://www.partstown.com/panasonic/PANF202K3700BP

replies(1): >>44484105 #
100. ale42 ◴[] No.44484105{5}[source]
Same principle in the combined oven/microwave from Siemens we have at home, except the microwaves come from the top. If you look well, you can even see the thing rotating.
101. freddie_mercury ◴[] No.44484540{6}[source]
But the badness of the analogy highlights the flaw in reasoning.

They want to go to war with a simple design? Sure, they get a Lee-Enfield bolt action rifle. They fight against people with EF88 Austeyr.

They will die and lose the war.

Longer range, higher rate of fire, lighter, grenade launcher mount, scopes, more accurate, higher lethality, etc, etc.

Simple design so it doesnt't jam doesn't mean you've maximised all the other areas that are important for winning a war.

replies(1): >>44489980 #
102. wredcoll ◴[] No.44484680{7}[source]
I mean, maybe a musket has fewer jams per minute, but I suspect it has more jams per round fired.

Also, bolt actions aren't exactly the definition of simple.

replies(1): >>44489922 #
103. FridayoLeary ◴[] No.44485553[source]
My microwave has more controls and settings then an airbus. I have no idea what any of them even do. All a microwave needs is a timer. I've never had a case yet where i want less power.
104. makeitdouble ◴[] No.44485882{3}[source]
It's a fine line, and I'm partial to put the notification and control center on the well thought out side.

While it's technically hidden, it can consistently be called within a single swipe, whatever app you're using, whatever the circumstances. The icon positions is also consistent, to the point muscle memory can be built.

It's to me more reliable than the home screen or any other mechanism on the phone (android's double click to open the camera would be on par), I wouldn't mind if more stuff acted that way.

105. bluGill ◴[] No.44489922{8}[source]
Given equal precision and alloys used in construction a musket will jam less than a more complex gun. However a musket and bullets built with 1700 technology/precision will jam more than a gun built to the best best modern standards standards (though there are some pretty bad modern guns out there too that may not stack up so well).

A bolt action is simple compared to any semi-automatic gun. Particularly if it is a single shot bolt action thus dispensing with the complexity of a magazine feed.

106. bluGill ◴[] No.44489980{7}[source]
I fully agree with this. There is a reason long range sharp shooters use simple bolt action guns, while the vast majority of an army uses much more complex guns. A simple bolt action also happens to be the most precise gun we can make (a single shot musket would be simpler, but it wouldn't be more accurate and loading it would be a pain). You choose the best tool for the job. Properly cared for modern guns don't jam very often, and improperly cared for guns jam too often no matter how simple they are.
107. Andrex ◴[] No.44503528{7}[source]
I knew this would be the next direct comment. If the comment was about a broken foot the response would be "Maybe people with broken feet shouldn't be driving. <smug face>"

What do you think handicap spots are for?

108. xnx ◴[] No.44511507{4}[source]
and safety (for me who tries to hand-crank down the passenger window while driving)