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1009 points n1b0m | 87 comments | | HN request time: 1.294s | source | bottom
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Swoerd123[dead post] ◴[] No.43411056[source]
[flagged]
1. Zambyte ◴[] No.43411102[source]
What was wrong with Harris?
replies(12): >>43411121 #>>43411128 #>>43411133 #>>43411146 #>>43411203 #>>43411223 #>>43411248 #>>43411296 #>>43411442 #>>43411552 #>>43411640 #>>43412970 #
2. ◴[] No.43411121[source]
3. AlexandrB ◴[] No.43411128[source]
Extremist positions on trans issues. To quote Sam Harris: "Congratulations, Democrats. You have found the most annoying thing in the fucking galaxy and hung it around your necks."[1]

[1] https://samharris.substack.com/p/the-reckoning

replies(3): >>43411159 #>>43411231 #>>43411239 #
4. righthand ◴[] No.43411133[source]
She didn’t have time to campaign as Biden lied about stepping down after 4 years.
5. Trasmatta ◴[] No.43411159[source]
Harris said almost nothing about trans issues during the election. You're attempting to rewrite history if you're claiming it was somehow a core tenant of her campaign. That was entirely propaganda by the opposing party.
replies(3): >>43411242 #>>43411265 #>>43411678 #
6. Trasmatta ◴[] No.43411167[source]
How can you honestly believe this? What evidence do you have of this?
replies(2): >>43411244 #>>43411253 #
7. Starlevel004 ◴[] No.43411203[source]
Non-policy reasons: Too attached to Biden, didn't win via a primary but because Biden stood down far too late. (Not that she would've won a primary).
8. mandmandam ◴[] No.43411223[source]
All Harris had to do to win was promise to stop sending arms to Israel.

Many, many polls showed this very clearly. 77% of Democrat voters wanted an arms embargo, and over 30% of 2020 Biden voters in key battleground states said that this issue was serious enough to affect their vote.

> A Harris organizer who worked on youth turnout said that senior campaign officials gave them an order: When they sent out mass volunteer or fundraising emails and people replied by asking about Gaza, they were told to mark it as “no response.” The result? They seldom ended up engaging with voters on that issue.

- https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/uncommitted-le...

So yeah, if there was one thing wrong with Harris, that would be it. That one issue would have changed the result, and as far as single issues go, I call genocide a pretty big one. It's kinda the biggest.

Far from the only issue though - campaigning with Dick Cheney was pretty fucking stupid, for one thing. Then there was promising to be harsher on immigration than Trump. Promising the world's "most lethal" military (we already are?) while trying to gaslight broke Americans into believing the economy was great. In general, trying to pick up right wing votes was a heinous 'strategy'.

replies(3): >>43411263 #>>43411280 #>>43411333 #
9. pjc50 ◴[] No.43411231[source]
I don't think that leaving trans people alone is extremist.
replies(2): >>43411275 #>>43411295 #
10. LastTrain ◴[] No.43411239[source]
And that impacts you on a daily basis exactly how? Think long and hard about why that would even begin to bother you. Not to mention is was barely a passing side issue for Harris
replies(1): >>43412783 #
11. blindriver ◴[] No.43411242{3}[source]
Are voters only supposed to limit their votes about things candidates say during the election? If so does that mean voting against Trump for Jan 6 insurrection was wrong? Or can voters vote against Harris because of policies she has endorsed before the election?
replies(1): >>43411290 #
12. linuxftw ◴[] No.43411244{3}[source]
Did you ever hear her speak? Have you never talked to a low IQ person?
13. lesuorac ◴[] No.43411248[source]
She lost her own primary should be enough.

Given how much disadvantage being an incumbent was the last cycle across the globe I think she actually would've won in say 2016 but an incumbent candidate was not the one to run in 2024.

14. mrkstu ◴[] No.43411253{3}[source]
Obvious hyperbole, but any unedited interviews with her descended into word salad hell, on just about any subject.
15. ta1243 ◴[] No.43411263[source]
Well done for all the anti-israel-arming people. I hope they're happy with the outcome they wanted.
replies(3): >>43411434 #>>43411475 #>>43411484 #
16. AlexandrB ◴[] No.43411265{3}[source]
In various outlets she said she would change little from Biden's administration. And of course there's the classic: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/harris-gender-surgeries-ja...

Are you suggesting that Harris would have reeled in some of the most outrageous policies on this issue? She said no such thing so the reasonable assumption anyone would make is that it would be business as usual. Not talking about it is the problem.

replies(1): >>43414115 #
17. lenerdenator ◴[] No.43411280[source]
> All Harris had to do to win was promise to stop sending arms to Israel.

Not sending arms to allies seems to be a good way to piss them off.

replies(1): >>43411516 #
18. skyyler ◴[] No.43411290{4}[source]
>If so does that mean voting against Trump for Jan 6 insurrection was wrong?

Well, no, because he campaigned on that. Including pardons for people that participated.

replies(1): >>43414951 #
19. AlexandrB ◴[] No.43411295{3}[source]
Allowing bad actors to claim they have a female gender identity so they can get transferred to women's prisons is not "leaving trans people alone". There are clearly people abusing these policies to bad ends and the refusal to grapple with the idea that not every person who claims they're trans is a pure and honest snowflake is going to do tons of damage to the cause of "leaving trans people alone".
replies(1): >>43411374 #
20. kcplate ◴[] No.43411296[source]
She had only one really important job to do as vice president—become president if the president was incapable of doing the job. She, like many administration (and media), put her political party’s optics over the good of the country and tried to hide Joe Biden’s mental decline from the population. She was literally derelict in her most important duty as vice president. How could she be trusted as president?

I’m an independent and I could not and would not vote for her for this reason. I could not and would not vote for Trump either, so I simply didn’t vote.

replies(4): >>43411537 #>>43411556 #>>43411579 #>>43411708 #
21. righthand ◴[] No.43411333[source]
> All Harris had to do to win was promise to stop sending arms to Israel.

That might be true but it would have set herself up for a lie that would then be weaponized by Trump for another four years. A lot of people in this country don’t want a liar in office, that’s why they didn’t vote Trump.

So while she said she wouldn’t do anything different than Biden on immigration and not stop funding Israel. Those would have been lies if she did. Saying you’ll change things also builds distrust in past government and our well working systems. This rhetoric Trump champions and puts us in the problem we have today. We can see those lies in effect today as Trump ignores the voters he won from briefly talking about Gaza and still funding those wars.

replies(1): >>43411530 #
22. sjsdaiuasgdia ◴[] No.43411340{4}[source]
Exactly how have trans people affected your life, directly?
replies(1): >>43412374 #
23. pjc50 ◴[] No.43411374{4}[source]
Ah yes, the bad behavior of one person justifies mistreatment of an entire group.
replies(1): >>43411536 #
24. lenerdenator ◴[] No.43411434{3}[source]
To be fair, they're okay with what they got so long as they're not the ones getting it.

Hamas is a hardline theocratic political party based on a very conservative interpretation of a religion. That means they're anti-free speech/press/religion/assembly, anti-LGBTQ rights, anti-free enterprise, anti-secular jurisprudence, and anti-representative government. Neither of the Palestinian Territories have had meaningful elections in over a decade. They're utterly unwilling to discuss any sort of deviation from their foreign policy agenda in good faith.

And yet, that's who many people on the political left-of-center see as the "freedom fighters" of the Israel-Hamas conflict.

Is Israel blameless? Absolutely not. They've committed numerous war crimes and atrocities since October 7th. On the other hand, they have shown with Jordan and Egypt that if their neighbors agree to leave them alone, they'll do the same in turn.

Fatah isn't that much better.

Honestly it's a different flavor of the same kind of authoritarianism that many on the right in the US dream of. And with Trump, they're much closer to implementing this, albeit with a different religion. If the idea behind the 2024 election in the US was to prevent more people from coming under authoritarian rule on a global scale, the left in the US failed miserably. And I say that as someone on the political left.

replies(2): >>43412351 #>>43412638 #
25. BLKNSLVR ◴[] No.43411475{3}[source]
Another lazy $4 billion in arms to Israel two weeks ago...
26. mandmandam ◴[] No.43411484{3}[source]
No, sorry, you don't get to declare moral superiority because people refused to vote for a candidate who promised to keep arming genocide. "The lesser genocide" is an incredibly weak campaign pitch, and that was proven.

Everything Trump has done, from rearming Netanyahu, to allowing more bombing during a ceasefire, to making efforts for ethnic cleansing was initially proposed/endorsed by Biden; and Harris had promised to do the same.

77% of Democrat voters wanted an arms embargo. The vast majority of elected Dems keep voting to rearm. You can't blame voters for abandoning a party which point-blank refuses to even listen to them, never mind represent them.

replies(1): >>43412366 #
27. mandmandam ◴[] No.43411516{3}[source]
Conducting genocide is supposed to be a good way to piss off "allies".

That's domestic and international law, by the way.

replies(1): >>43412572 #
28. mandmandam ◴[] No.43411530{3}[source]
> it would have set herself up for a lie

No. Committing genocide - murdering tens of thousands of children - nullifies any previous weapons contracts. That's obvious.

Here's the specific law against it [0]. If you want to insist that Harris would be "forced" to keep arming Israel because of contracts, I do hope you'll have a read of it first.

0 - Section 502B of the Foreign Assistance Act (FAA), codified at 22 U.S.C. § 2304(a)

replies(1): >>43411569 #
29. AlexandrB ◴[] No.43411536{5}[source]
Could you please engage with the issue instead of making emotional appeals. You're saying this isn't a problem at all? What about the rights of the women affected by the bad actor(s)? Do you have some proposed solution for identifying the "one person" doing bad behavior?

The Democratic Party refused to grapple with these questions either and their electoral loss is going to do far more harm to trans rights than some reasonable policies (for example some gatekeeping of "self-ID") would have.

replies(1): >>43413086 #
30. righthand ◴[] No.43411537[source]
If you don’t vote then your opinion is meaningless. Voting is applying your opinion.

Your view of Biden’s mental state is lies spewed by all the media. How many videos of Biden speaking have you actually watched? He is actually 10x better speaker than Trump or George W Bush ever was. It’s ridiculous how people take those lies verbatim.

replies(1): >>43412868 #
31. ◴[] No.43411552[source]
32. walls ◴[] No.43411556[source]
"My feelings are so important I'd rather let the country fall to fascism than make a small concession."

You're an embarrassment, I hope you get what you 'voted' for.

replies(1): >>43412943 #
33. righthand ◴[] No.43411569{4}[source]
Unfortunately like Trump, that spending is out of her hands. That spending like all spending is set by the legislature through bills. She could have done nothing and saying she could is a lie you’re telling yourself.
34. 01HNNWZ0MV43FF ◴[] No.43411579[source]
I remember in 2016 I had the luxury to vote third-party. Now my life is on the line, though, so I always vote. It'd be super nifty if you voted too so I don't die before my time
replies(2): >>43412394 #>>43413379 #
35. ◴[] No.43411640[source]
36. jl6 ◴[] No.43411678{3}[source]
She was loudly accused of having extreme positions on a hot button issue. Saying nothing was tantamount to admitting the accusation was true. That's how the court of public opinion works.
replies(1): >>43412042 #
37. BLKNSLVR ◴[] No.43411708[source]
This, kids, is a fine example of the cost of pride as it relates to the very important task of any and all (voting age) citizens of any country.

One must choose the lesser of two evils!

replies(1): >>43413311 #
38. eagleislandsong ◴[] No.43412042{4}[source]
> She was loudly accused of having extreme positions on a hot button issue.

She was accused of many things in bad faith, e.g. not being Black, being a Marxist, being a communist, and more. Spending time and effort to address every single one of these would have been tantamount to allowing her opponent to dictate her campaign.

replies(1): >>43413350 #
39. ta1243 ◴[] No.43412351{4}[source]
I don't know. I do know when I've worked in Gaza I've had to deal with Hamas because they are the defacto civil service.

It's the same story we're seeing in the west though, from Hungary to America to Turkey to the UK. Strongman comes along and correctly says "your life sucks", then says "it sucks because of this group of people"

Run with that message for generations, throw in members of "this group of people" actually killing your friends and family, and it's easy to see how that message works.

replies(1): >>43412755 #
40. ta1243 ◴[] No.43412366{4}[source]
I'm not declaring anything, I'm just observing outcomes.
replies(1): >>43413746 #
41. gadders ◴[] No.43412374{5}[source]
I have worked with (born male) non-binary people who alternate between wearing male and female clothes. I have seen them enter the female toilets, and win awards for women.

But tbh, this is a daft question. It's like saying you can't have a policy position on gun control unless someone has shot at you.

replies(2): >>43412945 #>>43413270 #
42. 5ahrgf ◴[] No.43412394{3}[source]
I'm confused. If you can vote, you must be a U.S. citizen. How is your life threatened?

How would Pelosi help you? She might have been happy about the TSLA rally after the Trump election, like many other Democrat share holders.

43. lenerdenator ◴[] No.43412572{4}[source]
Well, what did putting Trump back into office do to stymie it?
replies(1): >>43415774 #
44. bloopernova ◴[] No.43412638{4}[source]
People weren't supporting hamas, they were condemning the indiscriminate bombing of civilians.

That message was picked up by the russians etc and turned into a wedge issue on social media.

replies(2): >>43412886 #>>43413402 #
45. lenerdenator ◴[] No.43412755{5}[source]
> Run with that message for generations, throw in members of "this group of people" actually killing your friends and family, and it's easy to see how that message works.

Oh, absolutely. But the way to solve that is to realize that it was authoritarianism that started the problem.

If the Arab states had been willing to talk about the concept of a Jewish state in the Middle East immediately after WWII, this probably doesn't happen. Instead a bunch of authoritarian rulers (most of them monarchs) decided to send troops to try to snuff out the founding of the new state. "I was put here by God; what I say goes" was their entire experience, and they tried applying it to the geopolitical disagreement in their region.

A bunch of countries who more-or-less sat out WWII were up against the survivors of industrialized state-backed efforts to wipe out their people during the bloodiest war in human history. As we know, the former lost, and with it, any real chance of establishing a meaningful state for the Palestinian people on their terms.

There's two ways to handle a loss: you can accept it on reasonable terms, or you can keep digging a hole. Egypt and Jordan eventually came around to reasonable terms. So far, those terms have held over multiple governments and decades on both sides.

If the continued method taken by Hamas (and by extension, Iran) is going to be that of violence, particularly against a state they have to know, deep down, that they can't beat, then there's not too much else to be done other than keep the region from falling further into chaos. That, whether it is right or wrong in the minds of American voters, means blunting the impact of enemy action against Israel. It's one of the bloodiest examples of realpolitik.

46. djohnston ◴[] No.43412783{3}[source]
Are you implying that people should only vote on things which they encounter in their day-to-day lived experience? That's silly and not how the world works. Why are you mad about Gaza? You aren't getting JDAMs dropped on your roof, are you? How does Gaza impact you on a daily basis?

Harris failed to distance herself from positions that are deeply unpopular with the majority of Americans (e.g. sex changes for illegal immigrants). That's all there is to it.

If you want to step away from this particular issue, she failed to distance herself from the Biden administration's policies. There's a pretty famous clip of her failing to answer a question to that point, definitely on the youtubes.

replies(1): >>43418160 #
47. kcplate ◴[] No.43412868{3}[source]
My view of Biden’s mental state is colored by my own experience with my father’s dementia that was happening alongside Biden’s administration. What I saw in Biden, mirrored my father’s decline minus about 18 months.

We took the car keys away from my dad when he was measurably more mentally capable than Biden appeared to be in 2022. I worried every single day between when I recognized the signs and when he left office about the dangers of having someone in his state as the presumed most powerful person in the world. What I do know is that whoever was running the country for the last 3 years, it wasn't someone elected to do it.

Not voting is a vote. It’s applying my opinion that there was not a reasonable candidate worthy of my vote.

replies(1): >>43412900 #
48. lenerdenator ◴[] No.43412886{5}[source]
> People weren't supporting hamas, they were condemning the indiscriminate bombing of civilians.

At least within my little bubble, I saw a lot more concern about that than the fact that Hamas had basically committed a massive war crime on October 7th. The only people consistently talking about the hostages that I saw were my Jewish friends. Otherwise, it was mainly "Free Palestine".

It's worth remembering that they also mainly targeted civilians, and that basically no nation-state today would do too much different from what Israel has been doing. If you were to kill, rape, and kidnap the proportional equivalent of any country's civilian population, you are likely to see their military attack you, and not stop until you at the very least returned the hostages.

replies(1): >>43416029 #
49. righthand ◴[] No.43412900{4}[source]
This is the exact same thing my father said before Biden stepped down, only instead it was my grandmother. Suddenly everyone’s an expert in mental decline and that was worrying for voters with Biden to stutter infrequently but with logical talking points. However it was acceptable for Trump to stand there and literally drool out of his mouth with nonsensical hate. That is a reason to not vote is unfounded medical hysteria and lies. Something you have no proof for other than your own bias and stigma on mental health as you have stated.

Joe Biden was running the country, he signed bills, gave speeches, and helped restore our economy. Because you chose to only read headlines and drink the “Joe is practically dead” kool-aid. That is how you led yourself to the lies and not voting.

Not voting is not a vote in a national election system. It is a vote for your own smugness. It is opting out of voting because you’re looking for a reason to stay neutral instead of a reason apply your opinion in a meaningful way.

That is what makes your opinion today meaningless because you voted for meaninglessness.

replies(1): >>43413237 #
50. kcplate ◴[] No.43412943{3}[source]
If the country falls to fascism it will be due to the democratic party choosing to run absolutely shitty candidates for the last 3 election cycles more than my single vote not being registered for any given candidate.

The democratic party is an embarrassment (that is coming from a former democrat, now independent BTW). Whatever we “get”, they own it.

51. hobs ◴[] No.43412945{6}[source]
Dang you saw a trans person? How many trans people are the equivalent of a loaded weapon? Because that's the completely bonkers question that somehow is being equivocated here - that someone wearing different clothes or identifying differently is a potential harm just waiting to get you... how exactly?

Did you deserve the woman only award? Would you assume that identity to get that award? Are you saying that people dishonestly assume trans identities because its an easy way to assume power in our society? Are you a serious person?

replies(2): >>43413666 #>>43414703 #
52. ◴[] No.43412970[source]
53. contagiousflow ◴[] No.43413086{6}[source]
What actual policies prevent bad behavior?
replies(1): >>43414059 #
54. kcplate ◴[] No.43413237{5}[source]
Got it. You disregard the opinions of people who have seen dementia first hand in favor of a DNC talking point. “Don’t trust your lying eyes! Biden is as sharp as a tack”.

I know what I saw, and I am sure your dad did too. I spent years as a caregiver to an Alzheimers patient, I may not be a “medical expert” but I am capable of recognizing similarities, especially when they are obvious and frankly common for dementia sufferers. I can also make judgements of who I vote for and not vote for based on my own observations. Whatever your opinion of my decision and my reasoning for it—-that is meaningless to me.

replies(2): >>43413549 #>>43423979 #
55. sjsdaiuasgdia ◴[] No.43413270{6}[source]
> who alternate between wearing male and female clothes

Does a woman in a t-shirt and jeans also cause you great emotional distress? Does it become more if she wore a dress the day before?

I'm going to agree with the other person who replied. You're not a serious person.

replies(1): >>43413688 #
56. kcplate ◴[] No.43413311{3}[source]
Why? I hear that all the time, but no one can ever really explain why its important for me to need to feel like I am on the “winning side” of two subjective evils in a contest?
replies(1): >>43420864 #
57. jl6 ◴[] No.43413350{5}[source]
None of those things had attack ads with this kind of impact:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamala_is_for_they/them

It was and is an important issue to a lot of voters and by ignoring it she let her opponent explain her position for her.

58. kcplate ◴[] No.43413379{3}[source]
How is your life on the line?
59. meeshmuesh ◴[] No.43413402{5}[source]
You can’t pretend that every issue that is contentious is some Russian propaganda designed to cause infighting. If you misplace your keys, do you blame Putin as well?
replies(1): >>43415070 #
60. myko ◴[] No.43413549{6}[source]
It's kind of humorous reading this and thinking about trump during the same campaign. He looks utterly confused and has no idea what he is talking about all the time, he was a doddering fool during his last administration, and this one he's not at the wheel at all.

So it's just funny to think that people looked at the mental capabilities of Harris and trump and decided... yep trump is the guy!!

replies(1): >>43413719 #
61. gadders ◴[] No.43413688{7}[source]
No emotional distress, but obviously it does for women who have to share toilets and changing rooms with them. That has been well documented and isn't a controversial position, apart from amongst male to female trans people.
62. kcplate ◴[] No.43413719{7}[source]
I didn’t vote for him either. I don’t necessarily see dementia there, but there are quite a few personality traits that I find absolutely abhorrent.
replies(1): >>43447478 #
63. mandmandam ◴[] No.43413746{5}[source]
"Well done" ... "I hope they're happy" ...

In case you weren't aware, that language isn't coming across as super-observational and not smug.

64. bobalob ◴[] No.43414059{7}[source]
In the case of prison policy, keeping prisoners strictly separated by sex, with no transfers of male prisoners into women's prisons allowed, under any circumstances.

Prisons should of course have safeguarding policy for further separation of vulnerable inmates within the prison.

Interestingly this is exactly what male prisoners with a transgender identity were requesting, according to https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/10/19/chase-strangio...:

> He teamed up with Lorena Borjas, the unofficial den mother to transgender Latinx women in New York City, to start the bail fund for transgender immigrants, and he joined a working group of lawyers who were drafting recommendations for President Obama's Department of Justice on the incarceration of trans people. "We asked people in prison what they needed, and they all said that they wanted a trans unit," Strangio said. But the lawyers in the working group, including Strangio, believed that L.G.B.T. units were stigmatizing, and only served to perpetuate the prison system.

However they were ignored, and instead of this, a policy of transferring males to women's prisons was introduced.

replies(1): >>43414794 #
65. skyyler ◴[] No.43414115{4}[source]
What exactly is the issue with prisoners getting medical care?
66. bobalob ◴[] No.43414703{7}[source]
This article is a good read, it explains why it's problematic to bestow upon men awards that were intended for women: https://www.filia.org.uk/latest-news/2018/9/21/does-the-appa...
replies(1): >>43416877 #
67. contagiousflow ◴[] No.43414794{8}[source]
Do you think the status quo of American prisons is good for anyone? I agree that this issue could be handled better, but as a non-American I've been horrified by many more things in the American prison system than this.
replies(2): >>43415405 #>>43423060 #
68. loeg ◴[] No.43414951{5}[source]
It is reasonable for voters to consider politicians' behavior before the most recent election cycle and ridiculous to say voters should have ignored Harris' earlier statements. (And I say that as someone who voted for Harris.)
replies(1): >>43415188 #
69. bloopernova ◴[] No.43415070{6}[source]
what about my comment led you to state that I pretend "every issue is russian propaganda"?
70. skyyler ◴[] No.43415188{6}[source]
Oh, no, I definitely agree with you on that, was just pointing out that specific premise is factually incorrect.
71. jl6 ◴[] No.43415405{9}[source]
Having a vulnerable inmates unit sounds like a great first step towards fixing some of the other abuses you might be thinking of.
72. mandmandam ◴[] No.43415774{5}[source]
That's not the point, and wasn't the question.

The question was, why did Harris lose, and the answer is that many Americans are still too decent to vote for someone who promises to arm the world's most live-streamed genocide.

Millions of potential Dem voters saw atrocities being committed with weapons sent by Biden and Harris. Every day, for over a year. Harris promised to keep doing that. That's viscerally disgusting, and a red line for decent people everywhere.

That's why she lost, which answers the question. Polls before during and after the election back that up unequivocally.

Now, you can argue that it's practical and more moral to vote for the lesser genocide all day, and you can point to all the ways that Trump is worse all night, but you can never, ever convince me that Democrats actually wanted to win more than they wanted to fuel genocide. Because they knew. They knew Harris' numbers, they knew the margins, and they knew what the polls were saying about Gaza. And then they campaigned with Dick Cheney. They managed to lose to a rapist insurrectionist, despite outspending him and his billionaires.

One more time - it's not the voters fault that they couldn't stomach voting for someone actively enabling the mass murder of tens of thousands of children, even if the alternative was openly worse. And it's weird that this is in any way confusing to people.

73. mandmandam ◴[] No.43416029{6}[source]
> they also mainly targeted civilians

How many Palestinians, mostly civilians, were held hostage in Israeli prisons on October 6th? (Hint: over 5,000).

> If you were to kill, rape,

Are you referencing long debunked fabricated accounts [0]? Or do you have any actual evidence of rape?

> and kidnap the proportional equivalent of any country's civilian population

Again - over 5,000 Palestinians were being held hostage by Israel on October 6th, including 170 children [1]. That's a huge proportion of the population.

That's what October 7th was about. That's why they did it - to free kidnapped Palestinians. So, if you were to apply your own logic equally, you would then have to justify what Hamas did on October 7th.

You can compare any statistic you like - kidnappings, murders, torture, rape. Per capita, or absolute, Israel comes out worse every time.

> you are likely to see their military attack you

Most countries attack military targets. Not tens of thousands of children, or every hospital, or record numbers of journalists, and refugee camps. Because the numbers (real people) are unprecedented. Unprecedented.

> and not stop until you at the very least returned the hostages.

Hamas offered to return the hostages on October 9/10 in exchange for Israeli troops not entering Gaza [2].

Netanyahu has scuppered many deals since.

You may live in a bubble, but you can leave it any time you choose.

0 - https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/how-2-debunked-accounts-o...

1 - https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20241023-number-of-palesti...

2 - https://www.timesofisrael.com/no-doubt-netanyahu-preventing-...

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74. hobs ◴[] No.43416877{8}[source]
Apologies, but I really do not care about sports awards or whatever - we're basically at the point in the USA that we're trying (or succeeding) to force de-transitioning because of bullshit like "He took her awards!"

When there's an impact that individual bad actors have, that's why we have individual punishments - we don't punish all men or all women for one bad actor, its nonsensical to treat trans folks as some homogeneous group when they literally embody the opposite :]

replies(1): >>43417212 #
75. bobalob ◴[] No.43417212{9}[source]
Understood, but I would still recommend reading that article, as it addresses some of your points and you may find it an interesting perspective.
76. LastTrain ◴[] No.43418160{4}[source]
I tend to care about policies that don't impact me personally when they harm other people. I'm a natural born citizen, I'm not going to get deported with out process, but I still care about that. I'm not in grade school, so I'm not going to be a victim of a school shooting, but I still care about that. If it is a policy that doesn't impact me personally, but benefits someone else, yeah I tend to not give a shit. Why would I be against a position that has no impact on me whatsoever when it only meant to help someone else as in the case with civil rights?
replies(1): >>43418940 #
77. djohnston ◴[] No.43418940{5}[source]
> If it is a policy that doesn't impact me personally, but benefits someone else, yeah I tend to not give a shit.

You're excluding a key point - the policy often benefits one party at the cost of another. You mentioned immigration and that's a great example of this sort of pathological empathy that has infected the left.

There's a cheap and fleeting sense of virtue attained when you champion illegal immigration and decry deportations. You post photos of mothers and their children crying at the border because the human trafficking organisations are having a hard time getting them across nowadays. But it's important to remember the negative pressure illegal immigrants place on wages and why there's a gross cabal of large corporations, lobbies, and affiliated NGOs, who virtue signal immigration as a means to lower their labor costs. It's important to remember the entire pipeline of illegal immigrants is owned and operated by extremely violent cartels - humans are now their most valuable product. Your desperate craving for that high of in-group acceptance is propping this up.

It's not that you're empathetic - you just don't care about the negatively impacted party. Nothing new under the sun.

replies(1): >>43419021 #
78. LastTrain ◴[] No.43419021{6}[source]
Yeah you don’t get to use the claim of “virtue signaling” to shut down conversation any more, we all understand that is a manipulative play to make someone feel a chump for having standards. Your claims on immigrants don’t match stats, they are less violent than the American population at large. And your example wasn’t that, it was about trans rights. Why would you be singularly opposed to recognizing someone’s basic rights to be who they are?
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79. djohnston ◴[] No.43419064{7}[source]
> they are less violent than the American population at large.

I made no assertion about the criminality of the immigrants, but rather the cartels bringing them here.

Regarding "trans rights", which is quite a large umbrella of ideas, negatively impacted parties include:

1. Parents who don't want schools influencing their children's ideas about sexual identity.

2. Women who don't want to compete against biological men in athletics (this is the most bewildering failure of the left's tolerance).

3. Women who feel uncomfortable sharing previously women-only spaces with biological men.

4. Trans people who made life-altering decisions as a minor and now regret it.

These negatively impacted parties are vocal now - they aren't hard to see. You don't care about them, is all.

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80. LastTrain ◴[] No.43419682{8}[source]
Yes I see a general lack of common decency lately. And scapegoating. And fear mongering. Because a lot of people hold a view doesn't make it right.
81. lenerdenator ◴[] No.43419923{7}[source]
> How many Palestinians, mostly civilians, were held hostage in Israeli prisons on October 6th? (Hint: over 5,000).

How many were there after trial?

> Are you referencing long debunked fabricated accounts [0]? Or do you have any actual evidence of rape?

Your own source indicates that there are UN investigators who found evidence of rape being carried out by Hamas terrorists.

> Again - over 5,000 Palestinians were being held hostage by Israel on October 6th, including 170 children [1]. That's a huge proportion of the population. That's what October 7th was about. That's why they did it - to free kidnapped Palestinians. So, if you were to apply your own logic equally, you would then have to justify what Hamas did on October 7th. You can compare any statistic you like - kidnappings, murders, torture, rape. Per capita, or absolute, Israel comes out worse every time.

Tell that to Jordan and Egypt. When the Israelis are offered a chance to sit down and hammer out a good-faith deal, they do so, and generally stick to its terms. It's almost as if they're going tit-for-tat with a group that is both willing to use shocking levels of violence to achieve their aims while also being far less able to counter any response using their own tactics.

> Most countries attack military targets. Not tens of thousands of children, or every hospital, or record numbers of journalists, and refugee camps. Because the numbers (real people) are unprecedented. Unprecedented.

Israeli war crimes should be punished. That being said, Hamas is the aggressor that decided to launch a military operation from one of the most densely populated territories on Earth. They also didn't seem to mind attacking civilian targets like a music festival or kibbutzim. If they had launched attacks on IDF bases, that's one thing. They didn't.

> Hamas offered to return the hostages on October 9/10 in exchange for Israeli troops not entering Gaza [2].

Think about that offer for a second. "We know we just killed over a thousand of your citizens - and fundamentally disagree with your state's very existence - but you can have the ones we kidnapped back, so long as you make no real attempt to find those responsible or prevent further attacks on your territory." Which brings me to my next point...

> Netanyahu has scuppered many deals since.

Of course he has. He doesn't have to take the deals Hamas (and by extension, Iran) wants. He's a bastard and is leaning too far towards authoritarianism to make me happy, but there was absolutely, positively no way that the attacks of October 7th were going to lead to anything but what you see going on now. Hamas is a militia. One backed by Iran, but still a militia. They lack the logistical, geographic and economic means to make any sort of sustained war against Israel, and they likely knew that before attacking.

When you're the leader of a country made up of a historically persecuted people and have been dealing with decades of attacks from an opponent, you're going to take advantage of their miscalculations to protect your people. Hamas made a massive miscalculation with October 7th. Netanyahu has been able to stick to power despite the violence of his response, and likely will until next year. Americans voting in the 2024 election, on the whole, didn't care if their government kept backing the Israelis. Iran's attempts to deliver reprisals generally failed to have any effect on Israel's ability to make war. The IDF operates in and around Gaza at will, able to destroy Hamas' token pockets of resistance. And since it's such a densely populated area, Palestinian civilians pay the price.

Furthermore, everyone who's anyone of consequence in the Middle East, save Iran, hates Hamas. There's a reason Egypt has stopped refugees at the border: they don't want a massively destabilizing force potentially entering their country. They're an existential threat to Egyptian society; Israel has shown it is not.

The only way to immediately prevent further civilian deaths in Gaza at this point is for Hamas to surrender, repatriate any hostages/remains, and disarm. Otherwise the Israelis will continue to push their advantage. You can't do what Hamas did on October 7th and run back behind the skirt of international law to stop your opponents; it simply doesn't work. You can screw up so much that it puts the survival of the entire population under your control at risk, and screw up is exactly what Hamas did by exercising the military option.

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82. BLKNSLVR ◴[] No.43420864{4}[source]
You're living it.
replies(1): >>43421231 #
83. mandmandam ◴[] No.43421178{8}[source]
> How many were there after trial?

A littler over 20% [0].

And, is it really a trial when the conviction rate is over 99%?

> Your own source indicates that there are UN investigators who found evidence of rape being carried out by Hamas terrorists.

No forensic evidence, no survivor testimony.

The "credible evidence", when you read it, is that some people had their pants pulled down, and blood, which are both things that can happen when your own forces are firing tank shells at you [1].

And, pretending to ignore the fact that the most lurid claims of rape on that day were totally debunked doesn't make you look like you're debating in good faith, or willing to change your position when presented with new evidence.

> Israeli war crimes should be punished.

When? After the last 10% of Gaza is reduced to rubble? After they've built the "riviera" Trump keeps talking about? When a few more hundred thousand Gazans have died? When? How?

> Hamas is the aggressor that decided to launch a military operation from one of the most densely populated territories on Earth.

The great Bill Burr: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wniaiyA-JE

> Of course he has. He doesn't have to take the deals Hamas (and by extension, Iran) wants.

Deals negotiated in good faith, some of which he agreed to like the ceasefire he just broke by murdering hundreds of people, and stopping food and aid.

> He's a bastard and is leaning too far

Ya think? You sure seem to be carrying a lot of water for him.

> everyone who's anyone of consequence in the Middle East, save Iran, hates Hamas

Ah yes, because only the wealthy and political class are "of consequence", and the opinion of the actual population [2, 3] means nothing.

> The only way to immediately prevent further civilian deaths in Gaza at this point is for Hamas to surrender

Not going to happen lol.

And collective punishment is still a war crime and an atrocity. You really, really need to understand that point, because right now you're spending a lot of time defending the indefensible. Genocide is never justified, ever, ever; and that's not just opinion but international law.

> You can't do what Hamas did on October 7th and run back behind the skirt of international law to stop your opponents

International law is international law. If someone breaks it once, it doesn't give you the right to break it ten times, or a hundred times in response. Do you understand that? It really seems like you don't.

0 - https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/29/jailed-without-cha...

1 - https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-officers-invoked-defunct-h...

2 - https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/egypt-po...

3 - https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/new-publ...

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84. Zambyte ◴[] No.43421231{5}[source]
They would still be if they had voted. I'm curious what the actual answer is too.
85. bobalob ◴[] No.43423060{9}[source]
Placing female prisoners at risk of physical violence, sexual assault, rape and impregnation by male prisoners is an obvious wrong to undo, but I agree there are many other horrifying aspects of prison conditions that need to be addressed as well.
86. righthand ◴[] No.43423979{6}[source]
You’re proving exactly my point is that you hold disdain for Biden being old but Trump who can’t talk either is given a free pass. Yes that discounts your nonvoting opinion to valueless because it is nonsensical. Regardless if Biden is early stage dementia or not.

You can “see” all the dementia signs you want. It doesn’t make it true and you should really seek out more material than the few times you’ve probably watched him speak. He really was a good leader that got thrown under the bus for a few bad performances. Right now you’re just carrying on how you’re not qualified to diagnose dementia but it doesn’t matter because you know what the media circus told you and that lines up with your baseless theory.

87. myko ◴[] No.43447478{8}[source]
Oh yeah I wasn't accusing you of supporting him, just thought it was interesting how people treat him as if he hasn't lost his marbles. It's night and day to how he spoke ~15 years ago. His brain is mush.