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577 points mooreds | 69 comments | | HN request time: 1.936s | source | bottom
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euroderf ◴[] No.42176649[source]
So what's the solution ? Assign a surveillance UAV to every Russian ship parked "without a good reason" over a cable ? It would be expensive, but doable, and create a reserve of vehicles for wartime use.
replies(13): >>42176749 #>>42176841 #>>42177370 #>>42178833 #>>42179561 #>>42179942 #>>42180172 #>>42180905 #>>42181805 #>>42182065 #>>42182741 #>>42182772 #>>42185221 #
1. regnull ◴[] No.42176841[source]
The solution is to project strength and hit them where they don't expect. You are dealing with a thug, not a cost/benefit accountant, as Obama seemed to mistakenly believe. As long as they do things and we respond, nothing good will happen. They have already calculated the response and found it acceptable. Instead of this, go to the mattresses. Oh, your bridge has suddenly exploded? Shame.
replies(3): >>42176982 #>>42179050 #>>42182126 #
2. petre ◴[] No.42176982[source]
"We" already screwed their pipeline, what's left? Provide Ukraine with the means to blow up the Kerch bridge maybe? They're the ones that could legitimately do that sort of escalation.
replies(4): >>42177070 #>>42179156 #>>42182092 #>>42183645 #
3. JumpCrisscross ◴[] No.42177070[source]
> what's left?

The other pipelines. Their shadow oil fleet. There are lots of options. But to my knowledge, only the British, French and Americans are capable of the long-range clandestine operations.

replies(1): >>42177105 #
4. petre ◴[] No.42177105{3}[source]
Their shadow oil fleet is operated by third parties and shell companies. We are dealing with a mafia state here.

https://windward.ai/knowledge-base/illuminating-russias-shad...

replies(4): >>42177161 #>>42177182 #>>42178626 #>>42180589 #
5. JumpCrisscross ◴[] No.42177161{4}[source]
> Their shadow oil fleet is operated by third parties and shell companies

Would be a shame if they started having engine troubles in the middle of the ocean.

replies(3): >>42178243 #>>42178476 #>>42179866 #
6. baq ◴[] No.42177182{4}[source]
yeah just count the cases of unprovoked attacks on gazprom-related people by open windows.
7. libertine ◴[] No.42178243{5}[source]
The "problem" of Western countries is that the political sphere operates under different moral compasses: like taking down a shadow fleet tanker would be a natural disaster... taking down many would mean many disasters.

The real question is, should security and defense concerns be placed on hold? If our basic freedoms and rights are being attacked, how big of a deal would be a shadow fleet tanker catastrophe?

replies(2): >>42178967 #>>42179430 #
8. consumer451 ◴[] No.42178626{4}[source]
They are planning on this:

> Parliament calls for an EU crackdown on Russia’s ’shadow fleet’

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/press-room/20241111IP...

9. favorited ◴[] No.42178832{6}[source]
That might carry more weight if Russia hadn't started an expansionist war to reclaim former imperial territory.
10. toomuchtodo ◴[] No.42178967{6}[source]
Those ships are going to be transiting somewhere unloaded. That is when you engage them.
replies(1): >>42179408 #
11. HumblyTossed ◴[] No.42179050[source]
"We" won't respond because "we" just elected a Russian asset and he is going to install more in his cabinet.
replies(1): >>42179327 #
12. chii ◴[] No.42179156[source]
> "We" already screwed their pipeline

unfortunately, "we" didnt have to pay a sacrifice to the economy for it, because germany paid it.

The US is too afraid of nukes, and won't escalate. The russians rightly predicted this.

replies(2): >>42179469 #>>42180166 #
13. IncreasePosts ◴[] No.42179327[source]
It's already been settled that the trump dossier from 2016 was a work of fiction.

Why did Putin take crimea under Obama's watch, parts of Ukraine under Biden's watch, but then not make any huge moves like those while his "asset" was in the white house?

replies(3): >>42179474 #>>42179582 #>>42187541 #
14. DiggyJohnson ◴[] No.42179408{7}[source]
That would be in the busiest shipping ports, channels, and anchorages in the entire world. Aka the most bananas place to interdict.
replies(1): >>42179491 #
15. jojobas ◴[] No.42179430{6}[source]
Western countries have intelligence services with sabotage departments and in general are not above blowing up things their leaders don't like.

If the CIA or US Navy don't have the technical means to blow up the Crimea bridge with plausible deniability they haven't been paying attention.

replies(2): >>42180148 #>>42188001 #
16. ◴[] No.42179469{3}[source]
17. mlyle ◴[] No.42179491{8}[source]
If something bad happened to a mostly empty Russian shadow tanker in the Gulf of Finland, that impact is going to be mostly confined to Russia. i.e. past the major Finnish and Estonian ports.

As long as we're all playing silly only-kinda-deniable games, that's an option on the table.

replies(2): >>42179918 #>>42180123 #
18. inpdx ◴[] No.42179571{4}[source]
If you believe otherwise...you aggressively haven't been paying attention for the last 8 years.
19. aguaviva ◴[] No.42179582{3}[source]
Because he needed all that time (2014-2022) to build up his forces and cash reserves.

Also, he needed a green light. Which was provided in the form of the chaotic Afghanistan pullout in 2021. Not that he was counting on it -- but once it went through, it seems very likely that tipped the scales in his mind in favor of deciding to actually go through with the full-scale invasion in 2022.

replies(2): >>42179787 #>>42184854 #
20. burningChrome ◴[] No.42179787{4}[source]
Its also been widely reported that when Trump first met Putin he said if he invaded Ukraine, he would turn Moscow and several other cities into a parking lot. Trump in several interviews has said he warned Putin not to do it, that he would pay a very, very heavy cost and he would see to it that he would.

This is all Trump had to do.

He was able to leverage the media's reporting on him that he was reckless, dangerous and prone to rash behavior and they were convinced he was going to start WWIII with? Yeap, you guessed it, the Russians. Putin believed what the media were reporting because Trump himself had verbally warned him.

He didn't need forces and cash. He did what OP recommended, he threatened Putin with force and Putin complied and just waited out Trump. It was a gift that Biden was elected in 2020 and if you go through the news reports, literally months after Biden was elected, Russia started massing troops on the border and readying their troops to invade. Its a strange coincidence that they didn't invade in the four years Trump was in office. He leaves and less than a year later, Russia is preparing to invade? C'mon man.

Your timeline is completely wrong.

- Biden's inauguration took place on January 2021.

- The Russians were amassing troops by December of 2021 (less than a year after he took office).

- The Afghan pullout wasn't until the Summer of 2021

- The Russian officially invaded in February of 2022

The green light wasn't needing forces and cash built up, it was Trump leaving office. The Afghan pullout had no effect on when they were going to invade since they were already massing troops and air support to the border regions where they finally launched their invasion from. Its not like the Russians decided to invade during the Afghan disaster as you insinuated, the invasion plans were already established by then.

Again, the tipping point was Trump leaving office.

replies(3): >>42179932 #>>42181869 #>>42183346 #
21. geniusplanmate ◴[] No.42179866{5}[source]
1. They already do, because those are old, garbage ships

2. It's not exactly in the interests of NATO to have those ships start spilling tons of oil in the North Atlantic

The problem of that "shadow fleet" is precisely that those are old, uninsured vessels that cause environmental risks.

replies(1): >>42180097 #
22. geniusplanmate ◴[] No.42179918{9}[source]
That's not where that shadow fleet is operating.

The gas sold by Russia to France, Germany, etc. is transported using normal vessels, AFAIK.

replies(1): >>42180532 #
23. tenuousemphasis ◴[] No.42179932{5}[source]
Surely you should be able to provide a source for the claim that Trump threatened Putin over Ukraine.
replies(3): >>42180124 #>>42181819 #>>42188116 #
24. JumpCrisscross ◴[] No.42180097{6}[source]
> not exactly in the interests of NATO to have those ships start spilling tons of oil in the North Atlantic

Since when did engine troubles cause an oil spill?

replies(3): >>42180339 #>>42180371 #>>42182773 #
25. petre ◴[] No.42180123{9}[source]
Except it isn't in the Gulf of Finland but the East Sea or Soth China Sea. Most of these ships are transporting oil to China, India, Singapore, The Middle East. The only allies able to interdict most of these ships are Japan and South Korea. Japan doesn't engage in such activities after WW2 and South Korea is reluctant to because of retaliatory actions from Russia and China. Maybe they'll change course after the DPRK has sent triops into Ukraine, but don't hold your breath.
replies(2): >>42180531 #>>42180602 #
26. teractiveodular ◴[] No.42180124{6}[source]
Here's the man himself claiming this in his inimitably eloquent style:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/trump-putin-no-way-ukraine-mu...

"No way." "Way."

replies(1): >>42181724 #
27. petre ◴[] No.42180148{7}[source]
Thry do but it only benefits Ukraine. So they're the ones who should blow it up, preferably with with weapons of their own in order to avoid NATO escalation. Just lke the Moskva sinking.
replies(2): >>42180585 #>>42182391 #
28. petre ◴[] No.42180166{3}[source]
Germany was told to stop buying Russian gas financing the Russian war machine by the previous Trump administration. They were told to pledge 2% of their GDP for defense, contributing more to NATO. They didn't listen. This is what happened: Ukraine got invaded, the pipeline was blown up to ensure compliance, their defense spending reachd 2% this year, more two years too late in a worse economic climate. Next year, the next Trump administration is going to demand more, because 2% is already insufficient.

https://www.dw.com/en/germany-to-hit-nato-budget-goal-for-1s...

replies(1): >>42180280 #
29. throwaway290 ◴[] No.42180280{4}[source]
Don't forget how Germany's exports of chips and machinery to places like Kyrgyzstan skyrocketed since the invasion.

> Exports of motor vehicles and motor vehicle parts to Kyrgyzstan grew particularly strongly in the first quarter, soaring more than 4,000% from a very small base to over 84 million euros... That came after a six-fold rise in German exports to Kyrgyzstan last year following Russia's February 2022 invasion of Ukraine.

https://www.reuters.com/world/german-exports-russias-neighbo...

I know people in Kyrgyzstan, trust me they did not suddenly become industrialized when Russia invaded

Anecdotally, as a Russian, some of my craziest interactions with foreigners who support the thugs in Russian gov, blame US/NATO for Russian aggression and totally buy the propaganda were with Germans. (Not a proper data point, just venting frustration, Germany get your act together...)

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30. aziaziazi ◴[] No.42180339{7}[source]
In case of an engine failure, it’s way more easier to tug the boat empty than full.
31. onionisafruit ◴[] No.42180371{7}[source]
Ever blown a head gasket?
replies(1): >>42180394 #
32. gnabgib ◴[] No.42180394{8}[source]
Bit of a personal question
replies(1): >>42184919 #
33. mlyle ◴[] No.42180531{10}[source]
https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/09/30/7477500/

Plenty of targets in the Gulf of Finland.

34. mlyle ◴[] No.42180532{10}[source]
https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/09/30/7477500/

Plenty of targets in the Gulf of Finland.

35. lottin ◴[] No.42180585{8}[source]
How does destroying the Crimea bridge not benefit the West? They destroy our infrastructure, we destroy theirs. That's the whole idea.
36. wbl ◴[] No.42180589{4}[source]
They sink just the same.
37. wbl ◴[] No.42180602{10}[source]
What exactly do you think we spend all that money on fast attack subs and frigates and destroyers for? Of course the US Navy (and the French and British) can interdict those ships anywhere on the high seas.
38. chii ◴[] No.42181096{5}[source]
With the gov't coalition collapse in germany, there's definitely some voices that oppose western actino against russia (adf is one, see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hG4bxFKBNos).

I can't help but suspect that russian influence and covert action behind the scenes, most of which might be decades in the making, is kicking into high gear.

replies(1): >>42183778 #
39. hackandthink ◴[] No.42181251{5}[source]
>who support the thugs in Russian gov

You can't defeat them, the NATO strategy has failed.

I sympathize with the Russian opposition, but I think it is wrong to interfere in Russian domestic politics.

Apart from that, I have always been suspicious of the West's favorite oligarchs.

replies(1): >>42183801 #
40. aguaviva ◴[] No.42181724{7}[source]
If all we have to go on is the man himself -- that means it's a lie of course, like nearly everything else he says.
replies(1): >>42184904 #
41. alecco ◴[] No.42181819{6}[source]
Not op. But in 2018 Trump did scold live on camera the German leaders for buying gas from Russia. "Germany is completely controlled by Russia".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JpwkeTBwgs

NOTE: I mostly don't like Trump. But the "Russiagate" angle is ridiculous.

replies(1): >>42185443 #
42. aguaviva ◴[] No.42181869{5}[source]
[flagged]
replies(1): >>42188176 #
43. ponector ◴[] No.42182092[source]
>> what's left?

Cut trade? But everyone likes Russian dirty money too much

44. stoperaticless ◴[] No.42182126[source]
> You are dealing with a thug, not a cost/benefit accountant

Spot on.

45. jojobas ◴[] No.42182391{8}[source]
If Russian leadership doesn't change there's just no chance it will stop at Ukraine. Next those sharing your sentiment will say "it only benefits Poland".
46. instig007 ◴[] No.42182773{7}[source]
since the times ocean waves decided to wreck ships that can't turn and navigate in storms without their prime mover.
47. rad_gruchalski ◴[] No.42183346{5}[source]
> Its also been widely reported that when Trump first met Putin he said if he invaded Ukraine, he would turn Moscow and several other cities into a parking lot.

Yeah. Trump talks a lot. Like his best friend, Melon.

replies(1): >>42186159 #
48. markvdb ◴[] No.42183645[source]
NATO filter blockade on Öresund?
49. throwaway290 ◴[] No.42183778{6}[source]
This is my impression, too.
50. throwaway290 ◴[] No.42183801{6}[source]
Calling it "Russian domestic politics" just invalidates in my eyes any other argument you make. Because it is so plainly not
51. IncreasePosts ◴[] No.42184854{4}[source]
Doubtful. He needed another 8 years after an annexing Crimea to build up the Russian army? Why would he need cash reserves if he has a toadie in the white house?

Imagine how quickly ukriane would have collapsed if the US was not providing support, and the US was preventing European nations from providing support. And then imagine how well off Russia would be if there were no sanctions placed on it by America. All in all your point doesn't make sense. You don't get an asset sitting in the oval office and then not use them.

replies(1): >>42185381 #
52. dgfitz ◴[] No.42184904{8}[source]
Least they posted a source. Credit where it is due.
53. dgfitz ◴[] No.42184919{9}[source]
Oh, its not. Why do you think that?
54. aguaviva ◴[] No.42185381{5}[source]
Why would he need cash reserves if he has a toadie in the white house?

You may want to think about the chronology again.

And then ask yourself if your statement above still makes sense.

replies(1): >>42185500 #
55. timeon ◴[] No.42185443{7}[source]
This is moving the goalpost a bit.
56. IncreasePosts ◴[] No.42185500{6}[source]
You're saying Russia couldn't have invaded Ukraine successfully in 2018, if the US and Europe were not providing support, and no sanctions were levied on Russia?
replies(2): >>42185992 #>>42187732 #
57. aguaviva ◴[] No.42185992{7}[source]
You're saying Russia couldn't have invaded Ukraine successfully in 2018

They didn't invade successfully in 2022, either. Meaning they were never able to invade successfully at any year before that. The whole war is a gigantic delusion for them, remember.

But as for evidence that they needed about 7-8 years to build their resources to a point where its regime thought they could invade successfully:

One of the pieces of evidence in favor of this view is the graph of the CBRF's (that's the Central Bank of Russia) holdings of foreign cash reserves, over the past 20 years. It shows oscillation or decline up until 2014, and then from 2014-2022, steady increases each year, resulting in a net increase from about $100b to $300b by 2022.

Military analyst say that Russia engaged in similar purchasing patterns internally (building up its reserves of shells and missile stocks, for example).

replies(1): >>42186828 #
58. M3L0NM4N ◴[] No.42186159{6}[source]
I am NOT his best friend.
59. IncreasePosts ◴[] No.42186828{8}[source]
You're ignoring half of what I'm saying. In 2022, they had to deal with the US and Europe providing aid and arms to Ukraine, and sanctions levied on Russia, because they didn't have their stooge in the White House.

If they invaded in 2018, they wouldn't have had to deal with any of those things. That is, if Trump actually is a Russian agent. So why did they wait until the situation was much worse for them in order to invade?

replies(2): >>42187845 #>>42188110 #
60. ◴[] No.42187541{3}[source]
61. koiueo ◴[] No.42187732{7}[source]
In 2019-2021 our president zieliensky - ordered retreat from fortified positions - downsized our army - demined southern and eastern borders

I'll leave out whether this was intentional or because he saw peace in putin's eyes (as he himself claimed).

But yes, russia couldn't successfully invade in 2018.

62. aguaviva ◴[] No.42187845{9}[source]
I'm not ignoring it.

I considered it, but I just don't think it adds up to what you think it does.

63. mrguyorama ◴[] No.42188001{7}[source]
The problem is we (The US) used to swing our """nation building"""/Imperialism dick all around, coup'ing and invading whoever we want, but after Vietnam and wasting trillions bombing sand for 20 years, a lot of us have softened on the idea of forcing our desires through explosions.

Add to that a natural conservative tendency in the US to jump at isolationism whenever there's an easy excuse (the guy you like is doing the "bad thing" so you don't actually want to stop him, the war is literally somewhere else and doesn't exactly involve us)

So it's hard for people like me, who used to be pretty pacifist, to decide that yeah maybe violence is the right option sometimes?

Also, the entire time we are trying to shake off bullshit "Democrats are warhawks" nonsense from the party that did the desert bombing just because Bush wanted to defend his daddy's memory. The same people who call the Dems warhawks spent the 2000s screaming that "you're either with us or against us" and calling anti-war people pussies so I guess they don't have very good memories.

So for various reasons, some good, the US is extremely gunshy right now. Even those of us wholeheartedly in support of Ukraine, wishing we gave them a thousand Bradleys and tanks, feel uncomfortable with the idea of boots on the ground. Meanwhile Europe has forgotten what intervention is, and seems utterly unwilling to do anything, lest they have to get off their holier than thou pedestal.

Appeasement definitely doesn't work, but the middle east is full of examples of "just bomb them all" also not working very well. Everyone is very nervous. It sure seems like Russia won't stop their horseshit until someone makes them stop, but that's going to require a million dead.

replies(1): >>42191837 #
64. holowoodman ◴[] No.42188082{5}[source]
Half of Germany was, for roughly 4 decades, a soviet puppet state. With indoctrination programs, propaganda towards the western part, cadre schools, the whole deal. And even in West Germany the soviets always had a lot of support, especially in the burgeoise (yes, the irony...) upper layers of society. Socialism and communism weren't just invented here out of thin air and such.

This means that a good part of especially the general former East German population as well as the academic and cultural upper class are left-leaning (in USian terms: deep red communists), soviet/russia-supporting and antiamerican by default. This got even stronger the farther we got past the 1990s, because the view back on the communist times naturally lost the memories of the bad parts.

replies(1): >>42190890 #
65. geoka9 ◴[] No.42188110{9}[source]
> In 2022, they had to deal with the US and Europe providing aid and arms to Ukraine, and sanctions levied on Russia

On top of what the GP listed, there was also the post-pandemic uncertainty, soaring inflation and increase in the support of far-right/isolationist politicians in Europe. The Russians probably expected a slow start from them and a quick takeover of Kyiv[0], which would likely mean game over for a big chunk (if not all) of Ukraine. To be fair, they almost succeeded: it came down to the single battle that saved Kyiv from a quick occupation[1].

Last (but not least), there was the Putin's isolation during the pandemic when he might have read too much of Russian fascism philosophers'[2]. To me, the open all-out invasion at that time seemed very much out of his style as he had always preferred covert probing and sabotage before that.

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Antonov_Airport [1]https://kyivindependent.com/opinion-russias-failure-to-take-... [2]https://thebulletin.org/2022/03/inside-putins-head-paranoid-...

66. burningChrome ◴[] No.42188116{6}[source]
Here you go:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/17852964/donald-trump-threaten...

“They're all saying oh he's a nuclear power, it's like they're afraid of him,” Trump said in a recording of the phone conversation with Daly. “You know, he was a friend of mine, I got along great with him. I say, Vladimir, if you do it, we're hitting Moscow. We're going to hit Moscow. And he sort of believed me like 5 per cent, 10 per cent - that's all you need.”

He's also said the same thing in several interview. That he told Putin he would make it very difficult to take Ukraine and it cost them economically and militarily. You can infer that meant could mean several things depending on your point of view.

67. burningChrome ◴[] No.42188176{6}[source]
[flagged]
replies(1): >>42188244 #
68. throwaway290 ◴[] No.42190890{6}[source]
I always ask Germans which side of the wall they are from, it seems like East Germans are a bit more disillusioned or realistic but people from West parts can be ardent supporters of Putin
69. ◴[] No.42191837{8}[source]