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1737 points pseudolus | 35 comments | | HN request time: 0.002s | source | bottom
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ajkjk ◴[] No.41859541[source]
There are so many things like this that have needed fixing for such a long time. The fact that something is happening, even slowly, is so heartening.

If your reaction is wondering if this is legal then you should be interested in the passing of new laws that make it unequivocally legal. Society should be able to govern itself.

replies(7): >>41859610 #>>41859669 #>>41860003 #>>41860390 #>>41861087 #>>41861257 #>>41861766 #
1. rachofsunshine ◴[] No.41860003[source]
This feels like one of those things that could be solved on the payment end with something like a unique payment ID for each subscription, rather than giving a CC number. Then you just enable or disable payment IDs (perhaps for a limited time, e.g., "create a payment ID that works for Netflix for the next three months but not after that"), rather than relying on vendors to decide whether they feel like charging you or not.
replies(8): >>41860019 #>>41860074 #>>41860086 #>>41860101 #>>41860238 #>>41860349 #>>41860583 #>>41861481 #
2. AdamJacobMuller ◴[] No.41860019[source]
privacy.com
3. ajkjk ◴[] No.41860074[source]
My understanding is that under the hood this does happen, but in the company's favor-some memberships will survive your credit card changing? There was a patio11 article about it which I can't find at the moment. (edit: maybe not. maybe it was a tweet? in any case I remember it being a thing)
replies(1): >>41860673 #
4. datadrivenangel ◴[] No.41860086[source]
The problem, is that not paying does not get you out of the legal obligation to pay. Most companies won't follow up because the cost isn't worth it, but there are definitely organizations that will go after you or sell your debts to collection agencies...

The marginal cost to a gym/ISP of the remaining duration of your contract is basically zero, especially if you're not going to use it, and they can get a few more dollars by being a jackass about it. In aggregate the incentives dominate.

replies(2): >>41860236 #>>41860735 #
5. kibwen ◴[] No.41860101[source]
A number of credit card companies offer virtual card numbers that you can generate to avoid giving out your real number. I agree that it should be more normalized, widespread, and automatic, but it is already possible to start doing this today.
replies(3): >>41860387 #>>41861010 #>>41861193 #
6. stevenally ◴[] No.41860236[source]
Yes. The problem is the current law. Which needs to be changed. Make these predatory contracts illegal.
replies(2): >>41860321 #>>41860543 #
7. DowagerDave ◴[] No.41860238[source]
you're describing virtual credit cards with controls, like amount, vendor, time of month, etc. it's an awesome service that limits your widespread exposure to one company vs. everyone you've every bought anything from.
8. conradev ◴[] No.41860321{3}[source]
I don't think these sorts of contracts should be illegal. I think a lot of things around them should be, like gyms requiring you to go in-person to cancel, or offering a terrible phone service to cancel, or marketing it deceptively such that you were unaware it was a contract.

But getting a discount in exchange for a longer-term commitment is often a benefit to consumers.

I just paid Visible for a year of cellular service up front and it was far cheaper than paying monthly – truly a great deal. I was able to front that money now, but if I paid a slightly higher per-month price in exchange for a year contract, that would be the same but with less money required up front.

replies(2): >>41860638 #>>41860654 #
9. astura ◴[] No.41860349[source]
You can do this with PayPal, Google Play, and privacy.com. Probably others too, these are just the ones I've used.

The thing is that sometimes you need to actually cancel the service, not just stop paying for it, to remove your financial obligations. Depending on the contract you signed.

replies(1): >>41861062 #
10. rachofsunshine ◴[] No.41860387[source]
Yeah, I was thinking of what I could do with a company Brex card - but I can't with my personal CC, at least not directly through my bank (though as others note apparently Google Pay does this now).
11. candiddevmike ◴[] No.41860543{3}[source]
I don't think this is a bad idea. Each month you would confirm whether you want to continue with the service, and if you say no or don't respond, it stops. If you think this would be annoying, then pay for a year (or more) in advance. This method would in theory reduce/remove the ability for folks to perform mid-month chargebacks under the guise of "I forgot to cancel".
replies(1): >>41860970 #
12. dspillett ◴[] No.41860583[source]
It isn't something I've seen advertised by credit card companies here (UK) but in the US at least some offer virtual cards whereby you can give different vendors a specific virtual card and cancel that if they don't stop taking payments when you want them to.

As much as I'm not a big fan of PayPal¹ I use that rather than separate credit card payments/subs for online purchases including subs for things like hosting accounts. Stopping a payment from their web UI seems like it would be easier than arranging a chargeback or calling the CC company to put a block on future payments, and it reduces the number of companies that I hand my credit card details too. When I cancel a service I make sure that the sub is cancelled there as well. I always follow the cancellation procedure at the other end too, unless it is obnoxiously bothersome, as just cancelling the payment method feels like I'm being dickish².

----

[1] I'm not sure that I'd risk a business account with them, and I hardly ever keep a balance there, due to the many stories of accounts being frozen for long periods with litle reason and inadequate review.

[2] You might argue that often they'd be more than happy to be dickish, hence the cancellation procedures, but I prefer not to stoop to that level whether they would or not.

replies(1): >>41860975 #
13. cogman10 ◴[] No.41860638{4}[source]
There are contracts that are basically impossible to terminate and offer basically no benefit to anyone, timeshares is a key example of it.

A problem with our contract law is that if you get anything out of a contract it becomes really hard to terminate if the terms don't allow for it (a peppercorn). With contracts now being written in dense legalese with multiple pages of terms and conditions, it's not really feasible to expect the common contractor to have a full understanding of exactly what they are signing up for.

replies(1): >>41862540 #
14. AlexandrB ◴[] No.41860654{4}[source]
> But getting a discount in exchange for a longer-term commitment is often a benefit to consumers.

This is already framing it in marketing terms. You're not getting a discount but being charged an artificial price premium for less/no commitment. This can get especially obscene in places where gyms are required by law to offer monthly membership options but they charge a significant markup if you go that route.

All of this has the effect of suppressing competition.

replies(1): >>41861592 #
15. 0cf8612b2e1e ◴[] No.41860673[source]
I have never(?) updated my Netflix billing information, but I know it has survived many new cards/numbers.

Which feels like it defeats the purpose of getting a new generated card.

replies(1): >>41860921 #
16. pbhjpbhj ◴[] No.41860735[source]
Cancelling of a subscription payment, without simultaneously notifying eg continuation (such as through an alternate payment means), is a clear and unequivocal indication of termination of the agreement for which the payment was being made.

A company has a simple avenue to avoid inadvertent cancellation, they just ask the customer "did you mean to cancel, please contact us by $date to continue your subscription".

But that's preferring the citizen over business interests.

replies(1): >>41861679 #
17. ajkjk ◴[] No.41860921{3}[source]
well, the idea is that you have a contract with them and that determines the money you owe, not the actual card. There's some mechanism under the hood to update the recurring subscription to use your new card when it changes.
replies(1): >>41861270 #
18. CSMastermind ◴[] No.41860970{4}[source]
I don't think you even have to be that extreme.

Just make it so that you can remove the authorization of vendors to charge you. You see a vendor charging you for a service you no longer want - click a button and remove their authorization to charge you.

replies(1): >>41861309 #
19. pbhjpbhj ◴[] No.41860975[source]
My PayPal story (in short, search my comments if you want more detail) - I bought a cheap game (<£5) on Steam. The game was broken, Steam wouldn't refund and so broke UK Consumer Rights Act.

I contacted PayPal, who opened a case, according to their agreement with Steam (which I'm not party to). PayPal found Steam to be in breach of their agreement (PayPal & Steam's). I was refunded.

Then Steam enacted petty revenge against me, and continue to do so.

PayPal acted laudibly, imo, but there seems to be nothing one can then do about any revenge a company might take against a customer.

A hypothetical might be that you return damaged goods to Amazon, then they refuse to sell to you in the future because you demanded your legal rights.

A computer retailer appears to have done similar. I had to return goods to them that were broken on arrival; they refunded, but closed my account (I have assumed that this was because of the refund request). They do have a general right to drop a customer, or refuse service (outside of protected characteristics) but it seems wrong that "making a reasonable demand in view of legislation" (a device was broken when it arrived) is apparently an allowable reason for refusal of future service.

replies(1): >>41862742 #
20. pbhjpbhj ◴[] No.41861010[source]
A problem mentioned is that whilst this cuts off the payment, in law it may not remove the liability to pay, so the company could in future chase you for the payments.
replies(1): >>41861339 #
21. Brybry ◴[] No.41861062[source]
PayPal is not great at it. I assume you mean the settings->payments->automatic payments (https://www.paypal.com/myaccount/autopay/) feature.

Last year I had a company (DomainsPricedRight/OwnMyDomain aka GoDaddy) that I last did business (a one time purchase) with 18 years prior (2005), bill me under a new "subscription" with no input on my part.

PayPal sort of allows you to prevent that but it seems only with companies you have recently done business with.

PayPal did do a good job of email notification of the automatic payment and cancelling the "subscription" but there is no easy way to reverse the fraudulent payment, so in the end the consumer still gets burned for profit (it was only $1 but how many people had $1 stolen?)

replies(1): >>41861335 #
22. HDThoreaun ◴[] No.41861193[source]
Companies can still send your debt to collections. For this strategy to truly work you can never give the company your real identity.
23. 0cf8612b2e1e ◴[] No.41861270{4}[source]
Well then they can go after me to get their money were I to fall behind. Not that they get a permanent linkage to my account.
24. FireBeyond ◴[] No.41861309{5}[source]
Yet currently, we have the opposite, financial institutions will "helpfully" update your card details with merchants you have recurring charges with.

Years ago at Key Bank I even argued with a teller and manager about blocking a recalcitrant merchant from charging our account, "But you have ongoing charges with them and if we decline the transaction..."

Yeah, that's between me and them, you shouldn't be inserting into this to 'obligate' me to pay.

25. FireBeyond ◴[] No.41861335{3}[source]
Agreed, I had similar where I had signed up for a trial with a subscription, sure, and then went to cancel. "This can be done by 'manage payments' in PayPal." or similar. This existed, but the subscription was not there. But sure enough, it got charged. They did reverse it at least, but was more painful than it had to be.
26. cvalka ◴[] No.41861339{3}[source]
They never do that
27. 620gelato ◴[] No.41861481[source]
India basically has this - when creating subscriptions, merchants typically create "mandates" which specify max amount permitted per month, frequency, and duration.

Afterwards, 1) if per month amount is greater than a regulated threshold, manual confirmation is needed. [ This is friction ] , 2) cancelling can be as simple as going to your bank's website and deleting the "mandate".

In all honesty, this is probably a really balanced approach, but the roll out was a real pain, with banks and merchants collaborating on who supports whom, etc. International payments got screwed completely - to this day, I can't subscribe to nytimes, after almost 2.5 years of this.

(A good summary - https://support.stripe.com/questions/rbi-e-mandate-regulatio... )

28. conradev ◴[] No.41861592{5}[source]
It is absolutely not just marketing: https://commoncog.com/cash-flow-games/

Jump to "Pre-payments in the Restaurant Industry"

Money now is more valuable than money later, and guaranteed future money is more valuable than no guaranteed future money.

29. bluGill ◴[] No.41861679{3}[source]
If it is easy to cancel then you should cancel. However if it is hard have your credit card cancel for you. (not all will, but some will) The advantage is they work for you and can put pressure on merchants to make it easy so they don't have to be the middleman.
30. kevin_thibedeau ◴[] No.41862540{5}[source]
A timeshare is purchasing fractional ownership. That's different than purchasing a service.
31. AnthonyMouse ◴[] No.41862742{3}[source]
The real problem here is that the banks make the rules and they like rules that allow them to covertly screw everyone.

What you really want is a system where a customer who issues a chargeback that isn't disputed gets the money back, but the merchant also doesn't get a chargeback fee because there is no dispute. And then if there is a dispute (and the customer still wants to do the chargeback), the chargeback fee is loser pays. Then you have a reasonable way for customers to issue legitimate chargebacks that still discourages illegitimate ones.

What we have instead is that if you do a chargeback, the merchant gets whacked with a chargeback fee in the range of $20-$50. Obviously the banks love this; they get the money. But the merchants respond by banning customers who do this, because if you make a $5 purchase with a $1.50 margin and then issue a chargeback, the risk that you do it again before you make enough purchases to even recover the first one is too large.

But if you prohibited merchants from dropping customers over that then there would be no deterrent to fraudulent chargebacks (or to using the chargeback system with the eye-watering fees instead of the merchant's RMA process), so there would be more of them, and merchants would have to raise prices on everybody else even more to cover the bank's fees.

Whereas if you had a balanced system that minimized fraudulent chargebacks while still allowing (and eliminating fees for undisputed) legitimate ones, that would minimize chargeback fees, which is exactly what the banks don't want.

replies(1): >>41865614 #
32. dspillett ◴[] No.41865614{4}[source]
> you do a chargeback, the merchant gets … a chargeback fee … But the merchants respond by banning customers who do this

If I've had to do a chargeback, I'm highly unlikely to want to spend further money with that company in future, so they can "ban" me all they like.

replies(2): >>41867256 #>>41871018 #
33. AnthonyMouse ◴[] No.41867256{5}[source]
But then what's your complaint? That's the status quo.
replies(1): >>41867630 #
34. dspillett ◴[] No.41867630{6}[source]
I didn't complain, as such.

My original post in this trail described how I minimise the risk that I have to faf around because of the status quo, which also reduces the potential for my direct payment data leaking due to security snafus, in the absence of the virtual card option in my locale. The one you replied to questioned one point in your description, which seemed to suggest that being banned by a bad trader was a problem.

Though I'll grant that being blocked could be an issue if that merchant was the only supplier for something that you particularly need.

35. pbhjpbhj ◴[] No.41871018{5}[source]
For me, I still buy games on Steam because my kids want them (I just try hard to find them elsewhere first). Steam just make it hard for me to do that, which is insane when the root of preventing me is a couple of quid they refused to refund when they sold a game they knew was broken.

Of course they don't care about that, it's the £10s across millions of customers that they possibly retain unlawfully that makes it worthwhile.