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623 points franzb | 141 comments | | HN request time: 1.568s | source | bottom
1. jmspring ◴[] No.10563642[source]
The repeated attacks, heavy immigration of refugees...I'm hoping for the best, but I feel like there is a powder keg here. Whether or not it is based in any fact, how this is handled and plays out is a serious concern.
replies(11): >>10563659 #>>10563676 #>>10563703 #>>10563754 #>>10563797 #>>10563798 #>>10563843 #>>10563975 #>>10564129 #>>10564253 #>>10564396 #
2. PhasmaFelis ◴[] No.10563659[source]
Indeed. I'm sure a bunch of dipshits are already claiming that this is what happens when you allow Muslims into your country, somehow. Gonna wind up hurting a lot more innocent people.
replies(2): >>10563678 #>>10563803 #
3. untog ◴[] No.10563676[source]
What do people think the refugees were running away from? Exactly these people.
replies(4): >>10563683 #>>10563711 #>>10563740 #>>10563770 #
4. chinathrow ◴[] No.10563678[source]
Indeed - and calls for more surveillance will follow the next day. 100% sure. Terrible what happened, to say so. RIP.
5. gotchange ◴[] No.10563703[source]
I believe that France didn't open its borders to this wave of refugees/migrants but I could be mistaken since I don't follow the news this closely.
replies(3): >>10563735 #>>10563760 #>>10563896 #
6. Cthulhu_ ◴[] No.10563711[source]
I think a major problem is that even they can't know who among them - in the big groups of refugees making the journey - is an isis member or supporter, and even if they're not, there's no telling who is going to radicalise in the future. The attacks earlier this year in paris weren't done by someone that came from that area, iirc.
replies(2): >>10563747 #>>10563998 #
7. cm2187 ◴[] No.10563735[source]
France cannot really control the wave of migrants anyway. But it is unlikely that the terrorists are one of these migrants. My guess is that they were French nationals/residents.
replies(1): >>10563783 #
8. serge2k ◴[] No.10563740[source]
The Syrian refugees, sure. A big problem is actually determining who people are and why thy are entering Europe.
replies(1): >>10563898 #
9. toyg ◴[] No.10563747{3}[source]
Refugees carry little more than their shirts in their travels. Those guns and grenades didn't come with refugees. End of story.
replies(4): >>10563791 #>>10563812 #>>10563876 #>>10565243 #
10. roadbeats ◴[] No.10563754[source]
How many refugee camps does France have? Let me answer you: 0

Refugees are victims of the war. If they wanted to involve violence, they would not be refugees looking for home. Why to see them as potential terrorists ?

replies(2): >>10563766 #>>10563804 #
11. jules ◴[] No.10563760[source]
What do you mean by that? The border between France and neighboring nations is always open.
replies(1): >>10563863 #
12. saryant ◴[] No.10563766[source]
That's not true, France does have refugee camps.
replies(1): >>10563810 #
13. robbiep ◴[] No.10563770[source]
Not European but travelling in Asia at the moment. Have had a couple of discussions with run-of-the-mill Europeans concerned that the refugees areproportionally made up much more of young men than women/children with the implication that these guys are up to no good. I'd say the subtleties of the humanitarian crisis is going to be lost on the average European Joe in the wake of this
replies(2): >>10564126 #>>10564323 #
14. AlexB138 ◴[] No.10563783{3}[source]
>My guess is that they were French nationals/residents.

Based on what? I'm pretty uninformed here, and it seems like a lot of people are bringing up refugees. Curious why you think the opposite.

replies(4): >>10563809 #>>10564146 #>>10564771 #>>10564772 #
15. philwelch ◴[] No.10563791{4}[source]
Guns and grenades are not that hard to get, even in Europe. The limiting factor is how many people are willing to lay siege to a concert hall and calmly execute a hundred people, and whether some of those people were let in under the guise of "refugees".
replies(2): >>10563877 #>>10563900 #
16. stefantalpalaru ◴[] No.10563797[source]
> heavy immigration of refugees

It's much more likely that the terrorists come from the frustrated youth born and raised in France, than some fresh immigrants.

replies(1): >>10565201 #
17. cm2187 ◴[] No.10563798[source]
The far right is already the largest party in France. The reasons for its strength have actually less to do with immigration than the continuous state of crisis of the French economy combined with the corruption of the political establishment. But the Charlie Hebdo attacks in January noticeably increased the anti-islam sentiment in France and I am ready to bet that this night's events will be another step up.
replies(1): >>10563841 #
18. mikeash ◴[] No.10563803[source]
Can we at least wait until people start saying these things before we complain? I'm getting tired of seeing a bunch of comments complaining about other people supposedly making arguments of which I see no trace.
replies(5): >>10563834 #>>10563840 #>>10563981 #>>10564218 #>>10564367 #
19. jmspring ◴[] No.10563804[source]
I don't know the views and concerns in France, I've only followed the responses to the Charlie Hedbo shooting and other media incidents in France. That said, the views and conversations with in-laws in Germany, it's interesting hearing what are otherwise inclusive people being concerned about things and not supporting the refugees.

The events are most likely unrelated, but there is a habit to generalize. And escalation of that generalization is what is a concern to me.

20. roadbeats ◴[] No.10563810{3}[source]
I volunteered two different refugee camp constructions in Syrian border and I know the difference between a refugee camp and a homeless camp clearly.
replies(1): >>10563858 #
21. cm2187 ◴[] No.10563809{4}[source]
We do not know yet the identities of the terrorists, so only a guess based on the previous three years of attacks in France.
replies(1): >>10563873 #
22. arcadeparade ◴[] No.10563812{4}[source]
They also carry their religion, genes and culture. And with that comes a clash of civilisations. With open gates: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=cb0_1447249820
replies(2): >>10563985 #>>10565024 #
23. bonaldi ◴[] No.10563834{3}[source]
There are people making that argument literally in this thread. They're not saying "Muslims" but they're using terms like "culture" as signifiers.
replies(1): >>10563857 #
24. Swizec ◴[] No.10563840{3}[source]
Open twitter. Every tweet on this topic has a bunch of replies complaining about muslims and migrants.

Even the first comment on HackerNews contained an anti-islamic sentiment jabbing at the migrant crisis.

replies(1): >>10564289 #
25. RogtamBar ◴[] No.10563841[source]
> The reasons for its strength have actually less to do with immigration than the continuous state of crisis of the French economy combined with the corruption of the political establishment.

The political establishment in France is in thrall to a radical, globalist agenda that seeks to increase its power by performing 'divide and conquer'.

A multicultural society has many more fault lines that can be exploited for political gain. One has only to look at how miserably the US is faring and how Americans are getting it good and hard from the donor class..

replies(1): >>10563920 #
26. vonnik ◴[] No.10563843[source]
It's really important to understand the Muslim community in France, and not evoke false connections.

We don't know if the attackers had anything to with the flux of Syrian migrants moving across Europe now, but my guess would be: they had nothing to do with it.

There are about 5 million Muslims in France, which accounts for about 7 percent of France's total population. France has deep, long-standing and often troubled ties to several Muslim nations, notably Algeria. The French presence in Algeria lasted from 1830-1962.

During the Algerian civil war of the 1990s, France was targeted by terrorist attacks several times. One of those bombings EDIT: injured more than 100 people, which may be the number lost in the attacks today.

There are several basic facts that may help people understand why these attacks happen in France (I'm going to make some crude and unsympathetic generalizations that stem from the years I spent there):

* It's close to Middle Eastern and North African countries torn by conflict, notably Libya and Syria. These are training grounds for would-be attackers, many of whom originate in the west.

* Because of that, and of the fact that France rejoined NATO in 2009 and put itself firmly on the side of the US, it is also a proxy for the US, and will be targeted by those unhappy with American policies.

* It's racist. France has not dealt with the fact that people other than the French live on its soil. If you are the child of immigrants who were invited to France to help its post-War growth, you soon learn that a Muslim name will exclude you from many opportunities.

* Its economy is stagnant. France is no country for young men. They will face limited opportunities regardless of their ethnicity, unless they belong to the elite passing through the grandes écoles. This leads to a lot of frustration. When people cannot build a life in one direction, sometimes they are susceptible to morbid, violent ideologies.

* It's sloppy. I lived in France for 14 years, on either side of the 9/11 attacks on Manhattan. The French were really slow to put respectable security systems in place. CDG airport leaked like a sieve for years and I have no reason to believe that has changed.

Anyone who wants to know more about Islam in France should read Gilles Kepel:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilles_Kepel

He wrote a particularly good book in the 1980s called "The suburbs of Islam".

replies(4): >>10563925 #>>10564151 #>>10564162 #>>10564708 #
27. mikeash ◴[] No.10563857{4}[source]
Go reply to them, then. Don't add to the clutter by repeating their arguments as a straw man.
28. tonfa ◴[] No.10563858{4}[source]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calais_jungle
replies(3): >>10563885 #>>10564131 #>>10564668 #
29. gotchange ◴[] No.10563863{3}[source]
It's open but that doesn't mean that everyone who shows up at the gate will be allowed in, right?
replies(5): >>10563899 #>>10563906 #>>10563909 #>>10563912 #>>10563933 #
30. cm2187 ◴[] No.10563873{5}[source]
also the TVs are mentioning terrorists speaking French, which if confirmed strongly support this guess.
31. ◴[] No.10563876{4}[source]
32. stsp ◴[] No.10563877{5}[source]
Come on. Don't blame refugees. Normal people are refugees. Refugees are normal people.

Their problems are rooted in abuse of power.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2015/nov/11/...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2015/nov/12/...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2015/nov/13/...

replies(1): >>10566769 #
33. ◴[] No.10563885{5}[source]
replies(1): >>10564068 #
34. jacquesm ◴[] No.10563896[source]
France is part of the Schengen area so there were no borders to open. The signs read 'Bienvenue en France'...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/redlotusmama/4583584976

35. michaelchisari ◴[] No.10563898{3}[source]
Yet if it's determined that this was orchestrated by a dozen Saudi nationals on travel visas, my guess is that the Syrian refugees are still going to take it hardest on the chin.
36. ino ◴[] No.10563899{4}[source]
there are no gates
37. toyg ◴[] No.10563900{5}[source]
> Guns and grenades are not that hard to get, even in Europe.

Not hard to get, but when you're talking about dozens of assault rifles, someone somewhere will know what is going where. If your intelligence people are worth their salt, of course.

> whether some of those people were let in under the guise of "refugees".

Yeah, because it's extremely effective to drop your people for months in a Turkish refugee camp, hoping that 1) they will survive in shocking conditions, 2) they will be processed and sent to France, or 3) they will jump on a dinghy and make it to the other side (when chances are that they will just sink), or 4) they will walk through half a dozen borders on high alert and across unsympathetic countries. Pure tactical genius.

More likely, these people had good passports and went through friendly airports smelling of roses. Once on-site, they were armed by existing networks that the French security apparatus still doesn't know how to infiltrate effectively. That's so much easier than leaving people to their own devices across two continents and hope they'll somehow manage to make it to la Gare du Nord at 10 o'clock on Friday morning.

replies(3): >>10563927 #>>10564134 #>>10564799 #
38. darkr ◴[] No.10563906{4}[source]
Under normal circumstances there is no gate to speak of.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area

39. jules ◴[] No.10563909{4}[source]
What gates? You can walk or drive from France into Spain or Belgium or Germany and not even notice.
40. saryant ◴[] No.10563912{4}[source]
Have you crossed a French land border lately? There are no controls. There are no gates between France and other Schengen countries.
41. noobermin ◴[] No.10563920{3}[source]
Offtopic, but while multiculturalism makes certain things difficult (like congress in the US now, agreeing on policy) diversity also helps in other ways (like being able to understand and deal with those who aren't like you and don't agree with you). One example of an extremely sucessful, multicultural society is Singapore. And, be honest, for all of America's faults, it's still a world power and one of the largest economies in the world.
replies(2): >>10563980 #>>10564378 #
42. tonfa ◴[] No.10563925[source]
Correction: 1995 attacks killed 8 and injured 100 (Puts the current attack in perspective, I don't think anything similar ever happened)
replies(1): >>10563953 #
43. jacquesm ◴[] No.10563927{6}[source]
Since the end of the war in former Yugoslavia and the fall of the former USSR Europe is awash with arms of all shapes and sizes. Automatic weapons caches are uncovered with scary regularity and it is not hard to imagine at all that groups with sufficient money can gain access to assault weapons in relatively large numbers.
replies(1): >>10565043 #
44. bensandcastle ◴[] No.10563933{4}[source]
There are no gates. There is a sign. http://travel.jeffersoncampervan.com/Pictures/PixoriginalSit...

Cross border travel within the EU is like moving between states in the US, easy to miss.

replies(1): >>10563969 #
45. vonnik ◴[] No.10563953{3}[source]
I stand corrected. Thank you. A terrorist attack killing more than 100 happened in 1961, during the Algerian war for independence.
replies(1): >>10564089 #
46. gotchange ◴[] No.10563969{5}[source]
What about airports?

I'm very positive that they check people's passports and papers in airports.

replies(3): >>10564025 #>>10564409 #>>10564578 #
47. lfam ◴[] No.10563975[source]
The population of France is about 7.5% Muslim. France has had a close relationship with the Muslim world since the 19th century when they colonized parts of North Africa and the Middle East. Sadly, the position in French society of colonial immigrants and their descendants is not very high. Also sadly, France has had a lot of experience with this sort of violence, both in the colonies and "at home".

If you know the attacks were carried out by Muslims, there's no reason to assume these attacks were carried out by refugees.

replies(1): >>10564355 #
48. ◴[] No.10563980{4}[source]
49. jacquesm ◴[] No.10563981{3}[source]
That wait was over more than an hour ago, unfortunately.
50. facetube ◴[] No.10563985{5}[source]
Are you suggesting that migrants are somehow genetically inferior? Because that'd be, frankly, an insane point of view to have.
replies(3): >>10564033 #>>10564034 #>>10565505 #
51. cm2187 ◴[] No.10563998{3}[source]
The French TV mentions that the terrorists were speaking French. And based on previous attacks it is more likely to be home grown terrorists. Syria is probably just a pretext, like a lot of European leftists in the 70s were using the Palestinian situation to justify their terrorist attacks.
replies(2): >>10564104 #>>10565425 #
52. the_french ◴[] No.10564025{6}[source]
The vast majority of European travellers use trains or roads, not air travel.
replies(1): >>10564716 #
53. jacquesm ◴[] No.10564033{6}[source]
P.O.E.
54. vox_mollis ◴[] No.10564034{6}[source]
A charitable reading would suggest that the parent is making a nod to behavioral genetics, which is substantially less insane.
55. Animats ◴[] No.10564068{6}[source]
The Calais camp is on fire.[1]

[1] http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/calais-migrant-camp-...

replies(2): >>10564167 #>>10564587 #
56. e12e ◴[] No.10564089{4}[source]
And not to detract from your points above, there's been terror attacks on "both" sides: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961
replies(1): >>10564949 #
57. tormeh ◴[] No.10564104{4}[source]
Hm... Interesting parallels:

In the 70s, European communist terrorism was widespread because of support from the Soviet Union. Now, European islamist terrorism is widespread because of support from the middle east. I'm aware that the CIA et al. have been doing exactly the same thing, but it's just a sad pattern.

replies(1): >>10565428 #
58. bsder ◴[] No.10564126{3}[source]
> the refugees areproportionally made up much more of young men than women/children with the implication that these guys are up to no good.

You don't even have to imply that they are intentionally up to no good.

Groups of young men without possibilities of pairing off with young women are far more prone to crime and violence.

59. Asbostos ◴[] No.10564129[source]
Yes, people like to blame the outsider, no matter how ridiculous it is. Ever hear a news story about an angry partner killing a spouse? About a person stabbed to death in the street? Pushed in front of a train? Hit by a car? Most of these you'll never hear of because they're such routine daily occurrences. They're done by US! Normal local people who grew up here (wherever that might be).

Nevermind refugees. People everywhere are much more dangerous than any terrorists. Somehow we don't like the idea of banning everyone from everywhere so we feel justified in judging one group as more dangerous than another to give us a sense of safety.

60. tormeh ◴[] No.10564131{5}[source]
That's a queue to get to Britain. It's a weird effect of inter-EU collaboration that Britain's borders effectively start at the coast of France.
61. tinco ◴[] No.10564134{6}[source]
With 'good passports' there is a good chance the passports were French, and not so much an infiltration as a return to home. Young people coming from poor segregated communities who are vulnerable to radicalization seem ideal tools for this kind of home-turf attack. In the Netherlands the (Italian) organised crime employs this same group, so there could be your access to smuggled arms.
62. aikah ◴[] No.10564146{4}[source]
What he means is french muslims , which are nationals/residents. Charlie Hebdo attackers were french nationals, though having a north african/african background.
replies(1): >>10564168 #
63. gotchange ◴[] No.10564151[source]
You forgot to include the recent intervention in Mali by French troops. This incident definitely upset the Al Qaeda in the Maghreb people and this terrorist attack was probably a retaliatory attack for the intervention.
replies(1): >>10564978 #
64. Asbostos ◴[] No.10564162[source]
Not that it makes up for it, but France also committed state-sponsored terrorism (by any definition of the word) in New Zealand in the 80's. Though they only killed one person with their bomb.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_of_the_Rainbow_Warrior

replies(2): >>10564275 #>>10565026 #
65. cm2187 ◴[] No.10564168{5}[source]
Almost certainly. But it does make a difference. Most French muslims come from Algeria and Marrocco and can't really claim to have been affected by the war in Syria. There are deeper roots to home grown terrorism than the Syrian conflict.
66. jacquesm ◴[] No.10564167{7}[source]
Oh shit.
67. PhasmaFelis ◴[] No.10564218{3}[source]
I suppose I could have been clearer. People are already making those arguments in the comments of practically every news story on the subject.

It is the central dynamic that perpetuates all this violence. Someone from Group A kills dozens or hundreds of Group B, which uses the violence as an excuse to oppress thousands of Group A, which uses the oppression as an excuse to kill more of Group B, and this goes on and on for decades long after everyone's forgotten who "started" it or why, because both sides have convinced themselves, against all logic and evidence of history, that if they just hurt the other guys enough they'll give up and be nice.

It is never going to end until we find a way to break the cycle. The only way I can think of to contribute is to be a voice condemning the violent bigots on both sides, and trying to separate them from the millions of innocents that they claim to represent. It's not much. It probably isn't anything at all. But what else can I do?

replies(1): >>10564258 #
68. pje ◴[] No.10564253[source]
How dare you mention refugees in the same sentence as this tragedy? Shame.
replies(1): >>10564801 #
69. mikeash ◴[] No.10564258{4}[source]
A large part of the reason I avoid comments on sites like that, and read HN comments, is precisely to avoid nonsense like this.

You're just perpetuating the nonsense. Yes, you're against it, but your comment is little more than the sentiment you're against, plus a statement of opposition.

70. 001sky ◴[] No.10564275{3}[source]
Could you clarify how this would be "terrorism"? Terrorisms is not something targeted like this. Whethor or not it was a war crime or treason or murder or whatever (they plead guilty to manslaughter)...it's not a repeatable or scalable type of situation and was never a threat to the general public.
replies(2): >>10564301 #>>10564495 #
71. mikeash ◴[] No.10564289{4}[source]
The whole point is to avoid all the nonsense like what you're saying is on Twitter.
72. Asbostos ◴[] No.10564301{4}[source]
I suppose not if terrorism has to give fear to the whole country, not just one group. But it was surely meant to intimidate by random-seeming violence. It wasn't part of a war, which distinguishes it from general war killing. Nor was it a personal grudge that distinguishes it from typical murder.
73. jameshart ◴[] No.10564323{3}[source]
The refugees who have travelled to Europe to seek asylum are disproportionately young and male. Because if you have a family group in a refugee camp in Turkey, you don't send your grandmother to take a dangerous boatride across the Med and then traipse around the countryside of the Balkans trying to find a way to get to talk to a German government official about the possibility of making an asylum application for your family.
replies(3): >>10564353 #>>10564377 #>>10564441 #
74. Turing_Machine ◴[] No.10564353{4}[source]
If I had a wife, grandmother, kids, etc. in a dangerous war zone or refugee camp, there is no way in hell that I would leave them behind. Not gonna happen.
replies(1): >>10564439 #
75. SHIT_TALKER ◴[] No.10564355[source]
Context: It was French colonization that put an end to the predations of the Barbary pirates and the Arab slave trade.
replies(1): >>10564975 #
76. TeMPOraL ◴[] No.10564367{3}[source]
"Howdy, lefties? Still arguing for disarming the citizens and letting in imigrants without control?" -- a (translation of a) friend's post on Facebook I just saw.

Yes, they will make those comments. They always do, even if nothing is happening.

replies(2): >>10564393 #>>10565098 #
77. pbhjpbhj ◴[] No.10564377{4}[source]
No, you set fire to your refugee camp because when seeking help from people to flee violence and oppression the best thing to do is start more violence ... /s

It's like being mugged for your wallet and then when someone comes to help you mug them for their wallet, then you wonder why no one wants to help you.

78. SHIT_TALKER ◴[] No.10564378{4}[source]
One example of an extremely sucessful, multicultural society is Singapore.

So that's one. And one overseen and enforced by an autocrat.

replies(1): >>10564803 #
79. mikeash ◴[] No.10564393{4}[source]
Yes, and they should be kept to Facebook and news article comment sections where they belong, not brought preemptively here.
replies(1): >>10564400 #
80. TeMPOraL ◴[] No.10564396[source]
I am afraid. Seriously. I'm scared about my life and life of my family, and the civilization we enjoy in Europe.

There was a lot of mess already with the current immigration crisis. Now add that attack, and like you said, it's a powder keg, except I'm afraid that this shooting may have just lit the fuse. People will be connecting those two issues. They already are, judging from things that start popping up on my Facebook feed.

I fear the overreaction coming, of both citizens and governments. I fear the Europe will split, or start a war with someone, or draconian security measures will be introduced by the government. Charlie Hebdo was symbolic. This was a real terror strike. I just hope that sanity prevails and we won't amplify the damage further.

replies(4): >>10564428 #>>10564469 #>>10564674 #>>10564889 #
81. TeMPOraL ◴[] No.10564400{5}[source]
Fair enough.

But it doesn't change the fact that general population will say these things, and it's them, not HN crowd, that shapes policy. I am seriously, true to God, afraid of what's going to happen now - afraid of overreaction of people and governments.

replies(2): >>10564430 #>>10565318 #
82. kalleboo ◴[] No.10564409{6}[source]
Only if you're arriving from outside of Schengen. Within Schengen, there are only ID checks if the airline themselves have them there to avoid ticket resales.
83. Kequc ◴[] No.10564428[source]
You had me for the first line. But then you clarified throughout the rest of your post that the reason you are scared is that you are afraid of the west. Can you bend over any further backwards, in any way at all, would that be possible.
replies(1): >>10564474 #
84. mikeash ◴[] No.10564430{6}[source]
I just want to see intelligent discourse, whatever the topic may be. Preemptively stating some nonsense before the people who believe it can get there hurts discourse just as much as when it's stated for real.
85. TeMPOraL ◴[] No.10564439{5}[source]
Oh you would, if that was the only way to ensure survival and/or a better future for them. It would be painful, but you would feel you have to do this.
replies(1): >>10564521 #
86. TeMPOraL ◴[] No.10564441{4}[source]
Exactly. Tried to explain that to people many times, and they didn't listen when it was just about refugees. They sure as hell are not gonna listen now.
87. q3k ◴[] No.10564469[source]
> I am afraid. Seriously.

This is exactly what the attackers want you to be. Don't let them win.

replies(1): >>10564478 #
88. TeMPOraL ◴[] No.10564474{3}[source]
I'm not sure what you mean here. Me and my family are in no immediate danger now. We don't live near France. But between the war in Ukraine (actually quite closer to my home) and immigration crisis, the perceived tension is pretty high. I am afraid because things like this tend to spiral out of control, and society is a fragile thing.
replies(1): >>10564916 #
89. TeMPOraL ◴[] No.10564478{3}[source]
Thanks.

My stay in Asia was extended 'till the end of this month. One of the things that bounce in my head now is - what Europe will I come back to?

replies(1): >>10564715 #
90. gozo ◴[] No.10564495{4}[source]
That has nothing to do with the definition of terrorism. Groups who do targeted attacks of sabotage that rarely kill people are also considered terrorists. For example the Earth Liberation Front is regarded as terrorists by the US.

https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/dt https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2009/september/domterror_09...

replies(1): >>10564596 #
91. Turing_Machine ◴[] No.10564521{6}[source]
No, I would not. Absolutely not. No way.

I would send the wife and kids first before going myself.

replies(2): >>10564572 #>>10566113 #
92. TeMPOraL ◴[] No.10564572{7}[source]
I wanted to argue with you about this but the more I think about it, the more I think I should retract my previous comment. I'm not in your head, I can't tell you what you would do. I apologize for doing that before.

I know that for me it would depend a lot on circumstances. Is the current refugee camp safe? Is the trip overseas that dangerous? Can my family handle it there, maybe caring for our grandparents while being protected by our parents? Then I would probably, with my heart broken, go alone to safeguard a place to live for them. I know I would be the kind who's naive enough to play by the books instead of just showing up in another country. But if my family staying would put them in danger, I'd definitely take them with me.

But I guess my point is that the amount of young males among the refugees can be explained by them going to secure a place for their entire family, and not willing to risk taking kids and grandparents on such a dangerous trip.

replies(1): >>10565168 #
93. acjohnson55 ◴[] No.10564578{6}[source]
Sometimes. About 5 years ago, I walked off a plane from Baltimore to Rome and out of the airport like it was a domestic flight. No stamp or anything.
94. acjohnson55 ◴[] No.10564587{7}[source]
Compounding terror with terror. Doubly sad.
95. 001sky ◴[] No.10564596{5}[source]
Terrorism is anti civillian warfare. Planting sabatoge devices that kill and maim innocent people is actually terrorism/ Is it just not as effective because it maims more than it it kills? I don't get it with these pedantic aruments.

eg lets say we load a bunch of shrapnel into a tree so it maims or permanenly injures whoever the next logger is...tha is basically the same thing as lobbing hand grenades into the public square. the attacks are meant to target random people, caught unawares, in a way that conveys a persistant threat of continued, scalable future action.

Now lets take some other shady randome violence like the KGB assinating a civilian in London with radioactive isotopes in his tea. Is that terrorism? No, its a specific threat carried out in a limited capacity against a designated target. It might be criminal or a war crime or wahatever bad thing describes it, but its not "anti civilian warfare", in the same way that not all war casualties are "war crimes" in the normal usage.

replies(1): >>10564722 #
96. gluelogic ◴[] No.10564668{5}[source]
I wonder about the etymology behind the term "jungle" here.

Is it derived from the slang term that train hoppers and other people in hobo culture use for the temporary, makeshift residences they hold in the woods near train yards during travel?

97. eva1984 ◴[] No.10564674[source]
> draconian security measures will be introduced by the government

Inevitable. The attack is no joke, it certainly alarms that the current measure is inadequate.

replies(1): >>10564885 #
98. InclinedPlane ◴[] No.10564708[source]
A correction: France has always been a member of NATO, they withdrew from integrated military command for several decades though.
99. firebones ◴[] No.10564715{4}[source]
If my 9/11 experience is a guide, then you will have months of overreacting to everything...from the sick feeling in your gut when you see a clear blue sky with no contrails in it like I did that fateful Tuesday, to the moment of doubt when you take your mail out of the mailbox after the Anthrax attack.

It goes away and you realize that the equilibrium in a civil society is normalcy, and to give in to fear is to lose. Recency bias, forgetting your math/probability/statistics--you're smarter than that. Lead the way for others to keep calm and carry on.

100. saryant ◴[] No.10564716{7}[source]
Actually, air travel is the most common mode of transport in intra-EU travel.

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/...

Trains are a tiny 6%.

101. gozo ◴[] No.10564722{6}[source]
Yes, the murder of Litvinenko is considered state terrorism by those who can afford to say so. Its not considered random at all. They very publicly killed someone who was an outspoken opponent of theirs. KGB has a long history of both state terrorism and state-sponsored terrorism.

> THE senior British official was unequivocal. The murder of the former KGB man Alexander Litvinenko was "undeniably state-sponsored terrorism on Moscow's part. That is the view at the highest levels of the British government".

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/world_news/article6...

You might think that some forms of terrorism are worse than others, but that doesn't mean that those are the only forms of terrorism.

replies(1): >>10564835 #
102. rihegher ◴[] No.10564771{4}[source]
At least they speaks french according to witnesses http://www.mediapart.fr/journal/france/131115/paris-frappe-p...
103. apetresc ◴[] No.10564772{4}[source]
There were eyewitness reports that the gunmen were talking to each other in French. So, that's something. If they were recently-arrived refugees that probably wouldn't be the case, though it doesn't rule out long-term embedded groups.
104. agumonkey ◴[] No.10564799{6}[source]
Not long ago French journalists did a 'weird' documentary about smuggling military weapon from eastern Europe. They managed to pass a whole bag of them, neutralized before their trip home obviously and destroyed as soon as they crossed the border. Still, far too easy for two peaceful, networkless persons.
105. icewater ◴[] No.10564801[source]
Thats a perfectly reasonable thing to mention.
106. neuro_imager ◴[] No.10564803{5}[source]
Singapore is a success only if you appreciate 24/7 unrelenting surveillance not to mention brutal oppression of anything even vaguely against the status quo.
107. 001sky ◴[] No.10564835{7}[source]
I do appreciate your point and the quote shows its not just yourself arguing the other side of the case. But every act of violence or intimidation is not "an act of terrorism". For god's sake what would you call the USA police vs Black Unarmed people? I mean if that is not worse and more akin instilling intimidation into people I don't know what is.
replies(1): >>10564989 #
108. jakeogh ◴[] No.10564885{3}[source]
How convenient for the power brokers. God forbid they explain that fear and power are the real goals and you are more likely to die in [nearly endless list].
109. lsc ◴[] No.10564889[source]
>I fear the overreaction coming, of both citizens and governments. I fear the Europe will split, or start a war with someone, or draconian security measures will be introduced by the government.

so... As an American who is old enough to very clearly remember America both before and after the 9/11 attacks? to the extent that America is like France, I can speak some to those fears.

We did several of those things. We massively overreacted; I mean, we didn't split, but we did pick a war with a country who's people kind of looked like the people who attacked us (and another war with a country we had some evidence that they had something to do with the attack) - and yes, both wars were pretty costly in terms of money, geopolitical power and credibility, commodity prices and world stability, but it didn't break us, and it didn't spill out into a major war between industrial powers. It didn't turn into Vietnam, or even something as bad as the CCCP's experience in Afghanistan. I'm not saying it was a good experience, just that it's survivable, and not as life changing as you seem to think. This isn't a war of the 19th or 20th century between major powers. This is a 21st century asymmetrical war, and while that's still pretty bad for whoever ends up getting blamed for these attacks, it's not the end for Europe.

Yes, the security measures were very costly. Airplane travel is dramatically less convenient, which means more traffic. Lots of lost productivity. We've lost so many human-years standing in line, waiting to be groped... or driving instead of flying; that has caused who knows how many extra deaths. (re-reading this... while I logically stand by the idea that we've lost more to the security measures than to the original attacks... on an emotional level, I feel shame for saying so out loud.) Personally, my perception is that this is slowly getting better with the pre-groping of the 'tsa pre-check' or the straight up money check of the "CLEAR" program. I mean, air travel is never again going to be as easy as it was when I was 19 during my lifetime, but it's not as bad as it was when I was 22, let me tell you, and it's getting better.

But... even at it's worst? This wasn't world war two. This wasn't even the Crimean war, at least on my side of the conflict. I mean, I don't want to diminish the sacrifices of our soldiers, it's not a job I would want to do, but being deployed in the wars we engaged in after 9/11 was less dangerous than delivering pizzas, if you only count the chance of getting killed or maimed, rather than harder to quantify mental traumas associated with fighting a war (which personally, I find to be a much larger deterrent to becoming a soldier than the danger. I was... just about at prime recruiting age on September 11th, 2001.

And for the rest of us? Yeah, 9/11 was a big deal. A bigger deal than I understood it to be at the time. A much bigger deal. but... it wasn't the end of life as we know it.

That was the weird thing about my 9/11 experience. So I had a dot-com job, and my boss was watching the news on a very early live-streaming website. (I want to say it was CNN or something, but I don't remember) I was mildly annoyed with her for not working and instead subjecting me to, you know, video news.

My thoughts at the time were the opposite of yours. It did not occur to me that this was going to change my country; It took me quite some time to understand that this was hugely impactfull.

replies(2): >>10564952 #>>10565062 #
110. cronjobber ◴[] No.10564916{4}[source]
Very probably this:

> I fear the overreaction coming, of both citizens and governments.

This is pretty much the standard official and media reaction to these kind of events. You're supposed to fear the "backlash" more than the terrorism. Yes, dear French people, this was bad, but the real catastrophe would be voting for Le Pen or ending Mid-East and African immigration.

That's what the OP probably meant. If you think about it, don't you think it is a somewhat unnatural reaction to being under attack, to always end up fearing those who didn't initiate the attack?

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111. TeMPOraL ◴[] No.10564932{5}[source]
> If you think about it, don't you think it is a somewhat unnatural reaction to being under attack, to always end up fearing those who didn't initiate the attack?

It is, but natural reaction is wrong. I still have much bigger chance of dying in a car accident than a terrorist attack. In general, the natural reaction to such events was fine 6000 years ago, but in today's hyperconnected, media-driven society, awareness of a danger is usually inversely proportional to the chance of it happening to you.

But I also know that general population has this natural reaction, and - as politicians follow the voice of people, instead of the voice of reason - it leads to very bad outcomes. I am afraid of those bad outcomes.

112. mercurial ◴[] No.10564949{5}[source]
That was a pretty nasty time. The French military tortured and assassinated on very large scale in Algeria (thousands of people). On the other side, the FLN was fighting a guerilla war, combined with terrorist actions (mostly bombings) against civilian targets. To compound this, once De Gaulle announced that Algeria would be become independent, hardliners from the military as well as from the Pieds-Noir community (people living in Algeria of French descent) formed a terrorist group known as OAS, targeting both FLN, Algerian civilians and French authorities (including attempts to kill De Gaulle).
113. TeMPOraL ◴[] No.10564952{3}[source]
Thank you for sharing your experiences.

> I mean, we didn't split, but we did pick a war with a country who's people kind of looked like the people who attacked us

The problem here is that 'people who kind of look like the people who attacked us' are not foreign, they're here, in Europe. The hot topic of past months was the waves of immigration, and before that it was Islam minorities. I fear that people will retaliate on those communities and it will turn into a civil war. Or even if not, the tension between policies of various European countries RE immigration were high, and overreaction here may just be enough to split us apart.

> My thoughts at the time were the opposite of yours. It did not occur to me that this was going to change my country; It took me quite some time to understand that this was hugely impactfull.

My experiences are informed by what happened to your country over the last 14 years. I've learned that such events can be very impactful.

114. mercurial ◴[] No.10564975{3}[source]
Context: the French king Charles X was in a difficult political situation and needed money, so attacking the then-Ottoman-dominated Algeria looked like a good idea at the time. The slave trade had stopped years ago, and the pirate activity, while not over, was way down.
replies(1): >>10565196 #
115. mercurial ◴[] No.10564978{3}[source]
The attackers mentioned Syria. The most likely candidate is ISIS, and they wouldn't give a damn to what happens to AQ or their affiliates.
replies(1): >>10565297 #
116. gozo ◴[] No.10564989{8}[source]
The problem with declaring the police as terrorist is that they also have legitimate use and the aren't necessarily directly politically motivated. That said, I could see how someone could claim that the crackdown of the civil rights movement in the US in the 60s could be considered a form of state terrorism. A more obvious example would be something like South Africa under apartheid.

This is of course a slightly academic use of the word. Many people have a hard time seeing even traditional domestic terrorism (like the unabomber) as terrorism.

117. threeseed ◴[] No.10565024{5}[source]
> Multiculturalism has never, at any time in human history, worked anywhere

What a load of complete and utter nonsense. I am embarrassed to even see that link on this site.

Multiculturalism is working just fine in Australia right now. In fact it is largely how this country was built. And just like most Western countries we have a fringe right who are xenophobic and anti immigrant but by and large the population welcomes different cultures and the benefits they bring.

replies(1): >>10565410 #
118. tajen ◴[] No.10565026{3}[source]
Please stop with the Rainbow Warrior story, it's true but not proportional. US has attacked Irak by producing false proof of WMD at UN, for God's sake! All states rely on secret agents, only its intensity varies, and I would not classify the Rainbow Warrior as FUD.
119. ordinary ◴[] No.10565043{7}[source]
I have never heard of this, which is scary in itself. Or maybe it isn't, I don't really know. Do you know of any further reading for me?
replies(2): >>10565248 #>>10565336 #
120. tajen ◴[] No.10565062{3}[source]
The risk in France is for the battle to happen on its land. There is a lot of racism and there is also a lot of e.g. Algerian people burning the French flag here and a lot of resentment. There are most well-integrated and well-considered Muslim people here, but there is also a minority we've completely lost. Each year the FN (extremist party) has more votes and after 2 terrorist attacks, it is a real possibility that they get elected for President 2017. From there, police arrests (of actually guilty people, but focused on a minority) can become routine, counter protests will be routine too, protest squashing will be routine, and the uproar can be as fast as a few days after the election.
121. ◴[] No.10565098{4}[source]
122. stuaxo ◴[] No.10565168{8}[source]
Exactly - as a species we get the males to take the risks. There is much to be gained from leaving a warzone, but when you see the footage of the refugee camps, children drowned, the immense cost of doing the journey, dealing with people smugglers etc it makes sense that you would send a young male in the family through this first.

If said young male gets to the country on the other side they are probably the most employable too.

123. SHIT_TALKER ◴[] No.10565196{4}[source]
The slave trade had stopped years ago, and the pirate activity, while not over, was way down.

Thanks to military defeats at the hands of Americans, English, and Dutch.

replies(1): >>10565465 #
124. qb45 ◴[] No.10565201[source]
Honestly, I'm curious what makes you think that the children of the new ones will be different?

When people like, say, Angela Merkel, advocate blindly accepting all those thousands of refuges smuggled to the EU, I just can't really understand - what's the point?

replies(1): >>10565936 #
125. briandear ◴[] No.10565243{4}[source]
You have no idea what you're talking about. Within probably 3 hours, one could arrange the purchase of AK-47s. The "bad guys" aren't coming to France with weapons in their checked luggage. This is supported by networks. The foot soldiers aren't the smugglers. You flood 10,000 people, among those you have your "bad guys," then, once they're in country, they link up with their networks.

This isn't "end of story." These ISIS guys aren't just buying tickets to CDG airport. How are they getting into Europe? What's the easiest way to get into Europe if your from Syria? It isn't going through traditional entry routes, it's blending in with refugees.

Why are so many people attempting to vindicate the refugees? If the bad guys are from Syria and 38% of the hundreds of thousands of refugees are Syrian, then wouldn't it follow that some percentage of those refugees could logically be nefarious actors? To think otherwise is to be incredible naive and perhaps blinding by an ideological desire for these refugees to not be part of the problem.

Sure there's tragedy in Syria, however, I'm unwilling to open my home if that exposes my family to any risk. There's no upside for me. There are plenty of poor people here in France that could use my help -- my capacity to care deeply about every single person in every single war zone is limited.

Let's export 50,000 Syrian refugees and dump them in the Mission District in San Fran and see how opinions change.

126. ◴[] No.10565248{8}[source]
127. louhike ◴[] No.10565297{4}[source]
It has been confirmed that the attacker is ISIS.
128. aws_ls ◴[] No.10565318{6}[source]
> But it doesn't change the fact that general population will say these things, and it's them, not HN crowd

What about thought leadership? I know its a cliche beaten to death perhaps, but still I think people are able to see a raised level of discourse, than theirs, while they may not always leave their hard positions and immediately agree.

But there's also this balancing act, that we need to do, of not wanting to get into an argument of certain kinds.

replies(1): >>10565353 #
129. jacquesm ◴[] No.10565336{8}[source]
Sure, here are two links to start with:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/europes-small-arms-plague/ (1998)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/getting-a-gun-le...

And many many others, unfortunately. It's a very nasty thing and it will take an extraordinary effort to put this genie back into the bottle.

Open borders has been a blessing in many ways but at the same time it has caused a whole bunch of un-intended side effects and this one and cross border heavy crime are two of the not so nice ones, to put it very mildly. We now have actual gangs with heavy arms in Amsterdam which was a fairly peaceful city not all that long ago.

130. TeMPOraL ◴[] No.10565353{7}[source]
> But there's also this balancing act, that we need to do, of not wanting to get into an argument of certain kinds.

Well, ok. It took me a while after I posted my responses to (sort-of) understand where 'mikeash was going. I initially thought he was disputing the existence or possibility of those comments, so me and others were providing proofs and arguments that they in fact exist.

I think now that 'mikeash wanted us to not accidentally fall from quoting some arguments to actually using and discussing them, but I also still think the meta-level issue is something worth thinking about. We all know general population will say stupid things, because GenPop always says stupid things in situations like that, and those calls will drown reasonable public discussion and they will shape public policy - so it is worth asking, what to do about it? How to prevent this situation from spiralling out of control?

replies(1): >>10568086 #
131. arcadeparade ◴[] No.10565410{6}[source]
Australia wasn't built on multiculturalism. The native culture was destroyed and Australia was built on its ruins.
132. hokkos ◴[] No.10565425{4}[source]
This is probably french terrorists, but they probably did this because they couldn't go in Syria or were ordered to do it in France from Syria. There is hundreds of young french men and few women who went there. There is every week in France a group of muslim terrorists that are arrested because they were ordered or prepared a strike. One time a group a 10 terrorists was arrested.
replies(1): >>10565482 #
133. kpil ◴[] No.10565428{5}[source]
Unfortunately, if one correlates the money, the particular religious flavour, and some incentives in loss of influence in certain neighbour countries, it would point to certain gulf states that we seem to be reliant on for oil. Regard as allies even.
134. mercurial ◴[] No.10565465{5}[source]
I'm not sure where you're going with that.
135. cm2187 ◴[] No.10565482{5}[source]
The problem is that there is a very significant portion of the French immigration who absolutely hate France and that ISIS can recruit so easily in this population. In many suburbs of Paris, people were cheering during 9/11. And earlier this year you didn't see any immigrant in the Charlie support demonstrations. The French press is trying to spin this as a foreign attack from the middle-east but I think that the real problem is inside France.
136. arcadeparade ◴[] No.10565505{6}[source]
Inferior is subjective. Different groups have different traits. Not an insane point of view, but definitely one that is politically incorrect, for now: https://jaymans.wordpress.com/hbd-fundamentals/ Of course we are all human beings equally deserving of compassion, no matter what our differences, but the equality myth that we are all born the same and all have the same chances of having equal outcomes in life, is a very dangerous one that is destroying the social pacts modern Europe was built on.
137. stefantalpalaru ◴[] No.10565936{3}[source]
The point is that our pensions system is crashing because people stopped making 2.2 children on average because they no longer needed children to survive in their old age. They payed their taxes so they have a guaranteed pension, right?

Wrong, those taxes were already used to pay the pensions in the same year they were collected. Now the shrinking work force is straining itself to pay for the increasing number of old farts, and the future is bleak.

We need young immigrants in Europe. We need them to work for us and make children for us. At least until they get rich and complacent like us and settle for 1 child per family.

There are ways to integrate them culturally, once their children are in our school system. And there are ways to avoid the chronic poverty and marginalization that plagues french banlieues. What we don't have is a way to keep paying those pensions with more and more pensioners leeching on fewer and fewer workers.

138. jameshart ◴[] No.10566113{7}[source]
You seem to misunderstand what displaced people want. Why would you send them away and stay in a refugee camp? Refugee camps are precisely the first relatively safe place displaced people find. They are attended by aid agencies, and provide basic needs. They are temporarily a place of shelter and food. Traveling on the road from border crossing to border crossing around Europe is less safe than staying put in the refugee camp. You'll need to find food and shelter in different places each night. You will be hassled by authorities. You might end up living rough on the streets of Ljubljana for the winter. But if you make it to Berlin you might be able to apply for asylum, find a job, and get enough money together to bring your family (if you have papers, they will be able to use trains or planes - they won't have to walk 800 miles). That seems a rational calculation for a young man.
replies(1): >>10566235 #
139. Turing_Machine ◴[] No.10566235{8}[source]
No, I'm not "misunderstanding" anything. If the refugee camp is safe, has food, etc., there's no reason for anyone to leave on a dangerous journey. If it's not safe, there's no excuse for leaving your children there.

I realize that life in Germany is more pleasant than life in a refugee camp in Turkey (or has been, historically... that seems to be changing), but that's an entirely different thing.

140. philwelch ◴[] No.10566769{6}[source]
I'm not blaming the refugees. If anything I feel sympathetic for them because the refugees are trying to escape entire countries that are effectively ruled by these people. But it's worth asking how ISIS managed to get these people into Paris.
141. mikeash ◴[] No.10568086{8}[source]
I'm sure I was deeply unclear, since I was just venting my annoyance through sarcasm.

You raise a good point, though. I would ask, where do you have reasonable public discussions? I want to see reasonable discussions here, but it's purely selfish, and I don't think it matters much in the bigger picture. Popular media is full of idiots, because they're pandering to the loudest idiots in the population. What alternative venues could there be?