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Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

(www.nytimes.com)
623 points franzb | 41 comments | 14 Nov 15 00:25 UTC | HN request time: 0.823s | source | bottom
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jmspring ◴[14 Nov 15 00:45 UTC] No.10563642[source]▶
The repeated attacks, heavy immigration of refugees...I'm hoping for the best, but I feel like there is a powder keg here. Whether or not it is based in any fact, how this is handled and plays out is a serious concern.
replies(11): >>10563659 #>>10563676 #>>10563703 #>>10563754 #>>10563797 #>>10563798 #>>10563843 #>>10563975 #>>10564129 #>>10564253 #>>10564396 #
1. untog ◴[14 Nov 15 00:51 UTC] No.10563676[source]▶
What do people think the refugees were running away from? Exactly these people.
replies(4): >>10563683 #>>10563711 #>>10563740 #>>10563770 #
2. Cthulhu_ ◴[14 Nov 15 00:58 UTC] No.10563711[source]▶
I think a major problem is that even they can't know who among them - in the big groups of refugees making the journey - is an isis member or supporter, and even if they're not, there's no telling who is going to radicalise in the future. The attacks earlier this year in paris weren't done by someone that came from that area, iirc.
replies(2): >>10563747 #>>10563998 #
3. serge2k ◴[14 Nov 15 01:02 UTC] No.10563740[source]▶
The Syrian refugees, sure. A big problem is actually determining who people are and why thy are entering Europe.
replies(1): >>10563898 #
4. toyg ◴[14 Nov 15 01:03 UTC] No.10563747[source]▶
Refugees carry little more than their shirts in their travels. Those guns and grenades didn't come with refugees. End of story.
replies(4): >>10563791 #>>10563812 #>>10563876 #>>10565243 #
5. robbiep ◴[14 Nov 15 01:07 UTC] No.10563770[source]▶
Not European but travelling in Asia at the moment. Have had a couple of discussions with run-of-the-mill Europeans concerned that the refugees areproportionally made up much more of young men than women/children with the implication that these guys are up to no good. I'd say the subtleties of the humanitarian crisis is going to be lost on the average European Joe in the wake of this
replies(2): >>10564126 #>>10564323 #
6. philwelch ◴[14 Nov 15 01:11 UTC] No.10563791{3}[source]▶
Guns and grenades are not that hard to get, even in Europe. The limiting factor is how many people are willing to lay siege to a concert hall and calmly execute a hundred people, and whether some of those people were let in under the guise of "refugees".
replies(2): >>10563877 #>>10563900 #
7. arcadeparade ◴[14 Nov 15 01:14 UTC] No.10563812{3}[source]▶
They also carry their religion, genes and culture. And with that comes a clash of civilisations. With open gates: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=cb0_1447249820
replies(2): >>10563985 #>>10565024 #
8. ◴[14 Nov 15 01:29 UTC] No.10563876{3}[source]▶
9. stsp ◴[14 Nov 15 01:29 UTC] No.10563877{4}[source]▶
Come on. Don't blame refugees. Normal people are refugees. Refugees are normal people.

Their problems are rooted in abuse of power.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2015/nov/11/...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2015/nov/12/...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2015/nov/13/...

replies(1): >>10566769 #
10. michaelchisari ◴[14 Nov 15 01:33 UTC] No.10563898[source]▶
Yet if it's determined that this was orchestrated by a dozen Saudi nationals on travel visas, my guess is that the Syrian refugees are still going to take it hardest on the chin.
11. toyg ◴[14 Nov 15 01:34 UTC] No.10563900{4}[source]▶
> Guns and grenades are not that hard to get, even in Europe.

Not hard to get, but when you're talking about dozens of assault rifles, someone somewhere will know what is going where. If your intelligence people are worth their salt, of course.

> whether some of those people were let in under the guise of "refugees".

Yeah, because it's extremely effective to drop your people for months in a Turkish refugee camp, hoping that 1) they will survive in shocking conditions, 2) they will be processed and sent to France, or 3) they will jump on a dinghy and make it to the other side (when chances are that they will just sink), or 4) they will walk through half a dozen borders on high alert and across unsympathetic countries. Pure tactical genius.

More likely, these people had good passports and went through friendly airports smelling of roses. Once on-site, they were armed by existing networks that the French security apparatus still doesn't know how to infiltrate effectively. That's so much easier than leaving people to their own devices across two continents and hope they'll somehow manage to make it to la Gare du Nord at 10 o'clock on Friday morning.

replies(3): >>10563927 #>>10564134 #>>10564799 #
12. jacquesm ◴[14 Nov 15 01:39 UTC] No.10563927{5}[source]▶
Since the end of the war in former Yugoslavia and the fall of the former USSR Europe is awash with arms of all shapes and sizes. Automatic weapons caches are uncovered with scary regularity and it is not hard to imagine at all that groups with sufficient money can gain access to assault weapons in relatively large numbers.
replies(1): >>10565043 #
13. facetube ◴[14 Nov 15 01:54 UTC] No.10563985{4}[source]▶
Are you suggesting that migrants are somehow genetically inferior? Because that'd be, frankly, an insane point of view to have.
replies(3): >>10564033 #>>10564034 #>>10565505 #
14. cm2187 ◴[14 Nov 15 01:56 UTC] No.10563998[source]▶
The French TV mentions that the terrorists were speaking French. And based on previous attacks it is more likely to be home grown terrorists. Syria is probably just a pretext, like a lot of European leftists in the 70s were using the Palestinian situation to justify their terrorist attacks.
replies(2): >>10564104 #>>10565425 #
15. jacquesm ◴[14 Nov 15 02:06 UTC] No.10564033{5}[source]▶
P.O.E.
16. vox_mollis ◴[14 Nov 15 02:06 UTC] No.10564034{5}[source]▶
A charitable reading would suggest that the parent is making a nod to behavioral genetics, which is substantially less insane.
17. tormeh ◴[14 Nov 15 02:22 UTC] No.10564104{3}[source]▶
Hm... Interesting parallels:

In the 70s, European communist terrorism was widespread because of support from the Soviet Union. Now, European islamist terrorism is widespread because of support from the middle east. I'm aware that the CIA et al. have been doing exactly the same thing, but it's just a sad pattern.

replies(1): >>10565428 #
18. bsder ◴[14 Nov 15 02:28 UTC] No.10564126[source]▶
> the refugees areproportionally made up much more of young men than women/children with the implication that these guys are up to no good.

You don't even have to imply that they are intentionally up to no good.

Groups of young men without possibilities of pairing off with young women are far more prone to crime and violence.

19. tinco ◴[14 Nov 15 02:29 UTC] No.10564134{5}[source]▶
With 'good passports' there is a good chance the passports were French, and not so much an infiltration as a return to home. Young people coming from poor segregated communities who are vulnerable to radicalization seem ideal tools for this kind of home-turf attack. In the Netherlands the (Italian) organised crime employs this same group, so there could be your access to smuggled arms.
20. jameshart ◴[14 Nov 15 03:33 UTC] No.10564323[source]▶
The refugees who have travelled to Europe to seek asylum are disproportionately young and male. Because if you have a family group in a refugee camp in Turkey, you don't send your grandmother to take a dangerous boatride across the Med and then traipse around the countryside of the Balkans trying to find a way to get to talk to a German government official about the possibility of making an asylum application for your family.
replies(3): >>10564353 #>>10564377 #>>10564441 #
21. Turing_Machine ◴[14 Nov 15 03:51 UTC] No.10564353{3}[source]▶
If I had a wife, grandmother, kids, etc. in a dangerous war zone or refugee camp, there is no way in hell that I would leave them behind. Not gonna happen.
replies(1): >>10564439 #
22. pbhjpbhj ◴[14 Nov 15 03:57 UTC] No.10564377{3}[source]▶
No, you set fire to your refugee camp because when seeking help from people to flee violence and oppression the best thing to do is start more violence ... /s

It's like being mugged for your wallet and then when someone comes to help you mug them for their wallet, then you wonder why no one wants to help you.

23. TeMPOraL ◴[14 Nov 15 04:20 UTC] No.10564439{4}[source]▶
Oh you would, if that was the only way to ensure survival and/or a better future for them. It would be painful, but you would feel you have to do this.
replies(1): >>10564521 #
24. TeMPOraL ◴[14 Nov 15 04:21 UTC] No.10564441{3}[source]▶
Exactly. Tried to explain that to people many times, and they didn't listen when it was just about refugees. They sure as hell are not gonna listen now.
25. Turing_Machine ◴[14 Nov 15 04:55 UTC] No.10564521{5}[source]▶
No, I would not. Absolutely not. No way.

I would send the wife and kids first before going myself.

replies(2): >>10564572 #>>10566113 #
26. TeMPOraL ◴[14 Nov 15 05:14 UTC] No.10564572{6}[source]▶
I wanted to argue with you about this but the more I think about it, the more I think I should retract my previous comment. I'm not in your head, I can't tell you what you would do. I apologize for doing that before.

I know that for me it would depend a lot on circumstances. Is the current refugee camp safe? Is the trip overseas that dangerous? Can my family handle it there, maybe caring for our grandparents while being protected by our parents? Then I would probably, with my heart broken, go alone to safeguard a place to live for them. I know I would be the kind who's naive enough to play by the books instead of just showing up in another country. But if my family staying would put them in danger, I'd definitely take them with me.

But I guess my point is that the amount of young males among the refugees can be explained by them going to secure a place for their entire family, and not willing to risk taking kids and grandparents on such a dangerous trip.

replies(1): >>10565168 #
27. agumonkey ◴[14 Nov 15 07:03 UTC] No.10564799{5}[source]▶
Not long ago French journalists did a 'weird' documentary about smuggling military weapon from eastern Europe. They managed to pass a whole bag of them, neutralized before their trip home obviously and destroyed as soon as they crossed the border. Still, far too easy for two peaceful, networkless persons.
28. threeseed ◴[14 Nov 15 09:01 UTC] No.10565024{4}[source]▶
> Multiculturalism has never, at any time in human history, worked anywhere

What a load of complete and utter nonsense. I am embarrassed to even see that link on this site.

Multiculturalism is working just fine in Australia right now. In fact it is largely how this country was built. And just like most Western countries we have a fringe right who are xenophobic and anti immigrant but by and large the population welcomes different cultures and the benefits they bring.

replies(1): >>10565410 #
29. ordinary ◴[14 Nov 15 09:09 UTC] No.10565043{6}[source]▶
I have never heard of this, which is scary in itself. Or maybe it isn't, I don't really know. Do you know of any further reading for me?
replies(2): >>10565248 #>>10565336 #
30. stuaxo ◴[14 Nov 15 10:08 UTC] No.10565168{7}[source]▶
Exactly - as a species we get the males to take the risks. There is much to be gained from leaving a warzone, but when you see the footage of the refugee camps, children drowned, the immense cost of doing the journey, dealing with people smugglers etc it makes sense that you would send a young male in the family through this first.

If said young male gets to the country on the other side they are probably the most employable too.

31. briandear ◴[14 Nov 15 10:48 UTC] No.10565243{3}[source]▶
You have no idea what you're talking about. Within probably 3 hours, one could arrange the purchase of AK-47s. The "bad guys" aren't coming to France with weapons in their checked luggage. This is supported by networks. The foot soldiers aren't the smugglers. You flood 10,000 people, among those you have your "bad guys," then, once they're in country, they link up with their networks.

This isn't "end of story." These ISIS guys aren't just buying tickets to CDG airport. How are they getting into Europe? What's the easiest way to get into Europe if your from Syria? It isn't going through traditional entry routes, it's blending in with refugees.

Why are so many people attempting to vindicate the refugees? If the bad guys are from Syria and 38% of the hundreds of thousands of refugees are Syrian, then wouldn't it follow that some percentage of those refugees could logically be nefarious actors? To think otherwise is to be incredible naive and perhaps blinding by an ideological desire for these refugees to not be part of the problem.

Sure there's tragedy in Syria, however, I'm unwilling to open my home if that exposes my family to any risk. There's no upside for me. There are plenty of poor people here in France that could use my help -- my capacity to care deeply about every single person in every single war zone is limited.

Let's export 50,000 Syrian refugees and dump them in the Mission District in San Fran and see how opinions change.

32. ◴[14 Nov 15 10:52 UTC] No.10565248{7}[source]▶
33. jacquesm ◴[14 Nov 15 11:37 UTC] No.10565336{7}[source]▶
Sure, here are two links to start with:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/europes-small-arms-plague/ (1998)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/getting-a-gun-le...

And many many others, unfortunately. It's a very nasty thing and it will take an extraordinary effort to put this genie back into the bottle.

Open borders has been a blessing in many ways but at the same time it has caused a whole bunch of un-intended side effects and this one and cross border heavy crime are two of the not so nice ones, to put it very mildly. We now have actual gangs with heavy arms in Amsterdam which was a fairly peaceful city not all that long ago.

34. arcadeparade ◴[14 Nov 15 12:12 UTC] No.10565410{5}[source]▶
Australia wasn't built on multiculturalism. The native culture was destroyed and Australia was built on its ruins.
35. hokkos ◴[14 Nov 15 12:20 UTC] No.10565425{3}[source]▶
This is probably french terrorists, but they probably did this because they couldn't go in Syria or were ordered to do it in France from Syria. There is hundreds of young french men and few women who went there. There is every week in France a group of muslim terrorists that are arrested because they were ordered or prepared a strike. One time a group a 10 terrorists was arrested.
replies(1): >>10565482 #
36. kpil ◴[14 Nov 15 12:24 UTC] No.10565428{4}[source]▶
Unfortunately, if one correlates the money, the particular religious flavour, and some incentives in loss of influence in certain neighbour countries, it would point to certain gulf states that we seem to be reliant on for oil. Regard as allies even.
37. cm2187 ◴[14 Nov 15 12:51 UTC] No.10565482{4}[source]▶
The problem is that there is a very significant portion of the French immigration who absolutely hate France and that ISIS can recruit so easily in this population. In many suburbs of Paris, people were cheering during 9/11. And earlier this year you didn't see any immigrant in the Charlie support demonstrations. The French press is trying to spin this as a foreign attack from the middle-east but I think that the real problem is inside France.
38. arcadeparade ◴[14 Nov 15 12:59 UTC] No.10565505{5}[source]▶
Inferior is subjective. Different groups have different traits. Not an insane point of view, but definitely one that is politically incorrect, for now: https://jaymans.wordpress.com/hbd-fundamentals/ Of course we are all human beings equally deserving of compassion, no matter what our differences, but the equality myth that we are all born the same and all have the same chances of having equal outcomes in life, is a very dangerous one that is destroying the social pacts modern Europe was built on.
39. jameshart ◴[14 Nov 15 16:15 UTC] No.10566113{6}[source]▶
You seem to misunderstand what displaced people want. Why would you send them away and stay in a refugee camp? Refugee camps are precisely the first relatively safe place displaced people find. They are attended by aid agencies, and provide basic needs. They are temporarily a place of shelter and food. Traveling on the road from border crossing to border crossing around Europe is less safe than staying put in the refugee camp. You'll need to find food and shelter in different places each night. You will be hassled by authorities. You might end up living rough on the streets of Ljubljana for the winter. But if you make it to Berlin you might be able to apply for asylum, find a job, and get enough money together to bring your family (if you have papers, they will be able to use trains or planes - they won't have to walk 800 miles). That seems a rational calculation for a young man.
replies(1): >>10566235 #
40. Turing_Machine ◴[14 Nov 15 16:44 UTC] No.10566235{7}[source]▶
No, I'm not "misunderstanding" anything. If the refugee camp is safe, has food, etc., there's no reason for anyone to leave on a dangerous journey. If it's not safe, there's no excuse for leaving your children there.

I realize that life in Germany is more pleasant than life in a refugee camp in Turkey (or has been, historically... that seems to be changing), but that's an entirely different thing.

41. philwelch ◴[14 Nov 15 19:09 UTC] No.10566769{5}[source]▶
I'm not blaming the refugees. If anything I feel sympathetic for them because the refugees are trying to escape entire countries that are effectively ruled by these people. But it's worth asking how ISIS managed to get these people into Paris.