Most active commenters
  • arcadeparade(3)
  • jacquesm(3)

←back to thread

Paris Shootings and Explosions Kill Over 100, Police Say

(www.nytimes.com)
623 points franzb | 20 comments | 14 Nov 15 00:25 UTC | HN request time: 0.207s | source | bottom
Show context
jmspring ◴[14 Nov 15 00:45 UTC] No.10563642[source]▶
The repeated attacks, heavy immigration of refugees...I'm hoping for the best, but I feel like there is a powder keg here. Whether or not it is based in any fact, how this is handled and plays out is a serious concern.
replies(11): >>10563659 #>>10563676 #>>10563703 #>>10563754 #>>10563797 #>>10563798 #>>10563843 #>>10563975 #>>10564129 #>>10564253 #>>10564396 #
untog ◴[14 Nov 15 00:51 UTC] No.10563676[source]▶
What do people think the refugees were running away from? Exactly these people.
replies(4): >>10563683 #>>10563711 #>>10563740 #>>10563770 #
Cthulhu_ ◴[14 Nov 15 00:58 UTC] No.10563711[source]▶
I think a major problem is that even they can't know who among them - in the big groups of refugees making the journey - is an isis member or supporter, and even if they're not, there's no telling who is going to radicalise in the future. The attacks earlier this year in paris weren't done by someone that came from that area, iirc.
replies(2): >>10563747 #>>10563998 #
1. toyg ◴[14 Nov 15 01:03 UTC] No.10563747[source]▶
Refugees carry little more than their shirts in their travels. Those guns and grenades didn't come with refugees. End of story.
replies(4): >>10563791 #>>10563812 #>>10563876 #>>10565243 #
2. philwelch ◴[14 Nov 15 01:11 UTC] No.10563791[source]▶
Guns and grenades are not that hard to get, even in Europe. The limiting factor is how many people are willing to lay siege to a concert hall and calmly execute a hundred people, and whether some of those people were let in under the guise of "refugees".
replies(2): >>10563877 #>>10563900 #
3. arcadeparade ◴[14 Nov 15 01:14 UTC] No.10563812[source]▶
They also carry their religion, genes and culture. And with that comes a clash of civilisations. With open gates: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=cb0_1447249820
replies(2): >>10563985 #>>10565024 #
4. ◴[14 Nov 15 01:29 UTC] No.10563876[source]▶
5. stsp ◴[14 Nov 15 01:29 UTC] No.10563877[source]▶
Come on. Don't blame refugees. Normal people are refugees. Refugees are normal people.

Their problems are rooted in abuse of power.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2015/nov/11/...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2015/nov/12/...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2015/nov/13/...

replies(1): >>10566769 #
6. toyg ◴[14 Nov 15 01:34 UTC] No.10563900[source]▶
> Guns and grenades are not that hard to get, even in Europe.

Not hard to get, but when you're talking about dozens of assault rifles, someone somewhere will know what is going where. If your intelligence people are worth their salt, of course.

> whether some of those people were let in under the guise of "refugees".

Yeah, because it's extremely effective to drop your people for months in a Turkish refugee camp, hoping that 1) they will survive in shocking conditions, 2) they will be processed and sent to France, or 3) they will jump on a dinghy and make it to the other side (when chances are that they will just sink), or 4) they will walk through half a dozen borders on high alert and across unsympathetic countries. Pure tactical genius.

More likely, these people had good passports and went through friendly airports smelling of roses. Once on-site, they were armed by existing networks that the French security apparatus still doesn't know how to infiltrate effectively. That's so much easier than leaving people to their own devices across two continents and hope they'll somehow manage to make it to la Gare du Nord at 10 o'clock on Friday morning.

replies(3): >>10563927 #>>10564134 #>>10564799 #
7. jacquesm ◴[14 Nov 15 01:39 UTC] No.10563927{3}[source]▶
Since the end of the war in former Yugoslavia and the fall of the former USSR Europe is awash with arms of all shapes and sizes. Automatic weapons caches are uncovered with scary regularity and it is not hard to imagine at all that groups with sufficient money can gain access to assault weapons in relatively large numbers.
replies(1): >>10565043 #
8. facetube ◴[14 Nov 15 01:54 UTC] No.10563985[source]▶
Are you suggesting that migrants are somehow genetically inferior? Because that'd be, frankly, an insane point of view to have.
replies(3): >>10564033 #>>10564034 #>>10565505 #
9. jacquesm ◴[14 Nov 15 02:06 UTC] No.10564033{3}[source]▶
P.O.E.
10. vox_mollis ◴[14 Nov 15 02:06 UTC] No.10564034{3}[source]▶
A charitable reading would suggest that the parent is making a nod to behavioral genetics, which is substantially less insane.
11. tinco ◴[14 Nov 15 02:29 UTC] No.10564134{3}[source]▶
With 'good passports' there is a good chance the passports were French, and not so much an infiltration as a return to home. Young people coming from poor segregated communities who are vulnerable to radicalization seem ideal tools for this kind of home-turf attack. In the Netherlands the (Italian) organised crime employs this same group, so there could be your access to smuggled arms.
12. agumonkey ◴[14 Nov 15 07:03 UTC] No.10564799{3}[source]▶
Not long ago French journalists did a 'weird' documentary about smuggling military weapon from eastern Europe. They managed to pass a whole bag of them, neutralized before their trip home obviously and destroyed as soon as they crossed the border. Still, far too easy for two peaceful, networkless persons.
13. threeseed ◴[14 Nov 15 09:01 UTC] No.10565024[source]▶
> Multiculturalism has never, at any time in human history, worked anywhere

What a load of complete and utter nonsense. I am embarrassed to even see that link on this site.

Multiculturalism is working just fine in Australia right now. In fact it is largely how this country was built. And just like most Western countries we have a fringe right who are xenophobic and anti immigrant but by and large the population welcomes different cultures and the benefits they bring.

replies(1): >>10565410 #
14. ordinary ◴[14 Nov 15 09:09 UTC] No.10565043{4}[source]▶
I have never heard of this, which is scary in itself. Or maybe it isn't, I don't really know. Do you know of any further reading for me?
replies(2): >>10565248 #>>10565336 #
15. briandear ◴[14 Nov 15 10:48 UTC] No.10565243[source]▶
You have no idea what you're talking about. Within probably 3 hours, one could arrange the purchase of AK-47s. The "bad guys" aren't coming to France with weapons in their checked luggage. This is supported by networks. The foot soldiers aren't the smugglers. You flood 10,000 people, among those you have your "bad guys," then, once they're in country, they link up with their networks.

This isn't "end of story." These ISIS guys aren't just buying tickets to CDG airport. How are they getting into Europe? What's the easiest way to get into Europe if your from Syria? It isn't going through traditional entry routes, it's blending in with refugees.

Why are so many people attempting to vindicate the refugees? If the bad guys are from Syria and 38% of the hundreds of thousands of refugees are Syrian, then wouldn't it follow that some percentage of those refugees could logically be nefarious actors? To think otherwise is to be incredible naive and perhaps blinding by an ideological desire for these refugees to not be part of the problem.

Sure there's tragedy in Syria, however, I'm unwilling to open my home if that exposes my family to any risk. There's no upside for me. There are plenty of poor people here in France that could use my help -- my capacity to care deeply about every single person in every single war zone is limited.

Let's export 50,000 Syrian refugees and dump them in the Mission District in San Fran and see how opinions change.

16. ◴[14 Nov 15 10:52 UTC] No.10565248{5}[source]▶
17. jacquesm ◴[14 Nov 15 11:37 UTC] No.10565336{5}[source]▶
Sure, here are two links to start with:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/europes-small-arms-plague/ (1998)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/getting-a-gun-le...

And many many others, unfortunately. It's a very nasty thing and it will take an extraordinary effort to put this genie back into the bottle.

Open borders has been a blessing in many ways but at the same time it has caused a whole bunch of un-intended side effects and this one and cross border heavy crime are two of the not so nice ones, to put it very mildly. We now have actual gangs with heavy arms in Amsterdam which was a fairly peaceful city not all that long ago.

18. arcadeparade ◴[14 Nov 15 12:12 UTC] No.10565410{3}[source]▶
Australia wasn't built on multiculturalism. The native culture was destroyed and Australia was built on its ruins.
19. arcadeparade ◴[14 Nov 15 12:59 UTC] No.10565505{3}[source]▶
Inferior is subjective. Different groups have different traits. Not an insane point of view, but definitely one that is politically incorrect, for now: https://jaymans.wordpress.com/hbd-fundamentals/ Of course we are all human beings equally deserving of compassion, no matter what our differences, but the equality myth that we are all born the same and all have the same chances of having equal outcomes in life, is a very dangerous one that is destroying the social pacts modern Europe was built on.
20. philwelch ◴[14 Nov 15 19:09 UTC] No.10566769{3}[source]▶
I'm not blaming the refugees. If anything I feel sympathetic for them because the refugees are trying to escape entire countries that are effectively ruled by these people. But it's worth asking how ISIS managed to get these people into Paris.