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115 points harambae | 52 comments | | HN request time: 0.497s | source | bottom
1. hardtke ◴[] No.46208389[source]
One of the issues the article doesn't mention is that these houses are effectively cheaper to purchase for corporate owners. Generally they can borrow money at a lower rate, but the ability of corporate owners to use depreciation on a new purchase to offset profits from previous purchases is more significant. Effectively they are redirecting money that would be paid in taxes into the payments on the new purchase.
replies(8): >>46208556 #>>46208610 #>>46208621 #>>46208767 #>>46209057 #>>46209420 #>>46209989 #>>46210020 #
2. shadowpho ◴[] No.46208556[source]
> Generally they can borrow money at a lower rate

There is some tax tricks you can play, but in general homes for primary residence is lower then secondary/rent, which is a big proportion of cost.

3. api ◴[] No.46208610[source]
Our system is far more regressive than most people realize. The poor pay more for things, don't have access to all kinds of tax breaks and cheap money, and can't afford accountants and shell companies and all the other complicated tricks you can use if you are wealthier.

I wonder: if you added it all up, would a flat tax (which is nominally regressive) actually be more progressive than the regressive taxes we have?

replies(2): >>46210723 #>>46211114 #
4. BeetleB ◴[] No.46208621[source]
As another commenter pointed out, buying a home to live in gets you lower interest rates than buying for any other reason.

> but the ability of corporate owners to use depreciation on a new purchase to offset profits from previous purchases is more significant.

If you're referring to cost segregation, this is probably less true now than in the past. It used to cost a lot of money to do a cost segregation analysis, and made sense only for apartment complexes (i.e. the cost to do the analysis vastly exceeded whatever savings you'd get on a single house). So only rich investors who owned 20+ unit complexes would do it.

I've heard that in the last few years, many accounting firms are providing it for relatively cheap, so ordinary investors can do it now.

RE people make a big deal about depreciation as a tax benefit, but it's minor in my experience. You're effectively reducing the cost basis, so when you ultimately sell, you have to pay a larger tax on the capital gains. Overall you gain, but not by a lot.

Perhaps if you combine with a 1031 exchange, you may get a greater benefit.

replies(1): >>46209359 #
5. zipy124 ◴[] No.46208767[source]
This is not true at all. Corporate loan rates are generally pretty damn high, only exceptionally can they borrow for low rates. Mortages however are a special case since they are basically mandated to be low and safe by most governments in exchange for letting banks exist. Or in the US explicitily guaranteed through freddie mac and fannie may.
replies(2): >>46209207 #>>46209251 #
6. HexPhantom ◴[] No.46209057[source]
It's wild when you think about it: a family scrapes together a down payment and pays full freight on property taxes, while a corporate landlord can roll one property's paper losses into the next deal and keep building their portfolio, tax-deferred
replies(4): >>46209167 #>>46209397 #>>46209524 #>>46211823 #
7. drivingmenuts ◴[] No.46209167[source]
Don't forget the sweetheart tax rebates they sometimes get for promises of development.
8. roboror ◴[] No.46209207[source]
>This is not true at all. Corporate loan rates are generally pretty damn high, only exceptionally can they borrow for low rates.

Are these companies going to banks and applying for a loan? I'd think they are privately backed and invested in.

replies(1): >>46209944 #
9. CGMthrowaway ◴[] No.46209251[source]
You whiffed on the point (note the word "but" in parent comment). The depreciation strategies are where the real benefit is. PE buyers use 60% bonus depreciation and cost segregation studies to create a $70-80K writeoff on a $120K asset, which often larger than the check they cut for the property in the first place

The final phase is to exit via UPREIT for OP units rather than cash, with the REIT getting a step up in basis that can be depreciated again, while still not triggering any capital gains for you until you convert

replies(2): >>46209594 #>>46210347 #
10. the_sleaze_ ◴[] No.46209359[source]
And what about if rent into the next 10 years fully servicing the debt, and the maintenance with a margin on top?

If I am blackrock? If I am smaller PE deploying 10 million a year?

replies(1): >>46209431 #
11. hippich ◴[] No.46209397[source]
Afaik, property taxes are due no matter what, at least in Texas.
replies(2): >>46209692 #>>46210400 #
12. triceratops ◴[] No.46209420[source]
What is this special depreciation corporate owners get? IIUC any landlord can use depreciation to lower their tax bill. Wouldn't the depreciation from a new purchase also apply to the rents from that new purchase?

Somewhat more outrageous is the 1031 exchange. Sell VTI at a profit to buy VOO and the government hits you with a capital gains tax. Sell your primary residence for $250k more than you bought it - same thing. But landlords are a special, privileged investor class to whom these rules don't apply. They can sell a house and pay no taxes on gains as long as they buy another property.

replies(5): >>46209466 #>>46210526 #>>46210658 #>>46210676 #>>46212714 #
13. BeetleB ◴[] No.46209431{3}[source]
And ...?

Not sure what you're asking.

As the report points out, institutional investors purchase only 3% of homes nationwide (but much higher in some cities). Regular smaller investors likely buy more homes than the institutional ones.

replies(1): >>46210372 #
14. CGMthrowaway ◴[] No.46209466[source]
It's not special, just requires scale for it to make sense. E.g. Cost segregation studies and UPREIT transactions are cheaper on a neighborhood level. And you need enough passive income to absorb the depreciation losses
replies(1): >>46209556 #
15. bpt3 ◴[] No.46209524[source]
In many states, there's a homestead exemption on property taxes that doesn't apply to non-owner occupied properties, so the opposite is true.

Also, I don't know what you mean about rolling paper losses into the next deal, but I suspect it's not accurate either.

There's a reason this non-existent loophole wasn't mentioned in the article that was looking for reasons to hate on corporate landlords.

replies(1): >>46209624 #
16. pempem ◴[] No.46209556{3}[source]
^ This

And the scale applies at every single step of the process. A citizen homebuyer is playing a oneshot game. There are few discounts to be had and every single fee is its own battle.

A corporation/PE is playing a multi-shot game. There are bulk discounts, relationships, and scale that is applied to everything from title insurance and inspections to cost segregations to filing all of the paperwork.

replies(1): >>46210892 #
17. JumpCrisscross ◴[] No.46209594{3}[source]
> PE buyers use 60% bonus depreciation and cost segregation studies to create a $70-80K writeoff on a $120K asset

Source? That looks like a juicy target for state taxation…

replies(1): >>46210726 #
18. georgeburdell ◴[] No.46209624{3}[source]
Capital loss carryover is possibly what they were referring to

Unrelated note but the Homestead exemption in Santa Clara County, average sale price $2,300,000, is $7,000. To be explicit, the home’s value is reduced by $7,000 for valuation purposes.

Edit: the tax deferred part sounds like a 1031 exchange

replies(1): >>46211872 #
19. thfuran ◴[] No.46209692{3}[source]
The tax being deferred is income/capital gains.
replies(1): >>46210901 #
20. Havoc ◴[] No.46209944{3}[source]
Privately backed isn't necessarily cheaper. In fact PE funds often have a big fat bank loan on their books because it pushes down the average cost
21. mx7zysuj4xew ◴[] No.46209989[source]
This^, this is how you end up with serfdom
replies(1): >>46211881 #
22. maxerickson ◴[] No.46210020[source]
Build enough housing and all of the sudden it isn't such a sure thing investment.

Not easy to do of course, but the problems that come with building more housing are better then the problems we have now.

replies(1): >>46210055 #
23. Teever ◴[] No.46210055[source]
That may be the case but it would still be a good idea to look at regulating these run away feedback loops writ large so that people can't just play a game of whack-a-mole where they play the same old tricks in different sectors or invent whole new mediums to play the same old games afresh
24. PopAlongKid ◴[] No.46210347{3}[source]
>create a $70-80K writeoff on a $120K asset, which often larger than the check they cut for the property in the first place

They're only deferring the tax on $70-80K, correct?

replies(1): >>46210715 #
25. NickC25 ◴[] No.46210372{4}[source]
> institutional investors purchase only 3% of homes nationwide (but much higher in some cities).

This is crucial. People are in cities - in the day and age of corporate consolidation, less and less jobs are available, and they are increasingly in-office, and increasingly in only a select few metro areas.

Nobody would give a damn if a glut of housing was built in the middle of South Dakota or Maine or Wyoming. That's because there's very little to no jobs growth in those regions.

replies(1): >>46210529 #
26. burnt-resistor ◴[] No.46210400{3}[source]
A lot of veterans live in TX because they have reduced or no property taxes, and also no income taxes. It's probably ~ 8-10% of disabled vets in my neighborhood.
replies(1): >>46210542 #
27. AnthonyMouse ◴[] No.46210526[source]
> IIUC any landlord can use depreciation to lower their tax bill.

This is also not really how depreciation works for assets that retain their value. If you buy a building to rent it out, the cost of the building essentially a cost of doing business, i.e. a tax deduction. You pay tax on the profit which is revenue (rents) minus costs (building, interest, maintenance, advertising, etc.) Depreciation is the building, they make you take it over time instead of all at once when you buy it.

But the depreciation lowers the book value of the building, which is your tax basis when you sell it. If you buy a building for a million dollars, depreciate it down to $500,000 and then sell it for $2M, you have a $1.5M capital gain from the sale. You basically have to give back all the depreciation unless the building actually lost that much value by the time you sold it, and in practice it usually goes up instead of down.

It's really the homeowners who have the advantage here because there is a large capital gains tax exemption from the sale of your primary residence, and that's actually a reduction in taxes instead of just a deferral.

replies(1): >>46216613 #
28. BeetleB ◴[] No.46210529{5}[source]
Most people are in cities, and most rentals in cities are not owned by then - except for the exceptions pointed out (Midwest and Southeast).

If you're having trouble buying a house in Atlanta, yes - they are a big factor.

In Austin? No - not a big factor.

29. seethishat ◴[] No.46210542{4}[source]
The reduction in property taxes is just for vets, right? I read that, in general, property taxes are high in Texas compared to other states.
replies(1): >>46220802 #
30. raw_anon_1111 ◴[] No.46210658[source]
You can only deduct passive income losses for depreciation if you aren’t a real estate professional of up to $25000 and that’s only if you earn less than $100K. It starts phasing out between $100K and $150K
31. BeetleB ◴[] No.46210676[source]
> They can sell a house and pay no taxes on gains as long as they buy another property.

As long as they buy another property at least as expensive or more, within a certain time period.

And it's not that they don't pay taxes, it's that the cost basis gets reset. That is the benefit.

32. BeetleB ◴[] No.46210715{4}[source]
> They're only deferring the tax on $70-80K, correct?

Yes, if they sell normally. But usually capital gains tax is lower than that on the income so overall they're saving.

To be explicit: They use the $70-80K depreciation to offset their rental income (which often means they pay no tax on the income for that year and several years after). They'll pay it eventually when they sell, but at a (usually) lower tax rate.

There are tricks like 1031 exchange to avoid paying taxes when they sell, but I don't know how depreciation benefits factor in to those.

replies(1): >>46212968 #
33. AnthonyMouse ◴[] No.46210723[source]
> would a flat tax (which is nominally regressive) actually be more progressive than the regressive taxes we have?

That's an easy one to fix regardless. Use a flat tax with a large fixed refundable credit. Now everyone pays e.g. 30% but gets a $12,000 credit, so someone who makes $40,000 is effectively paying zero, someone who makes $80,000 is effectively paying 15% and the effective rate approaches 30% as the number goes up. But the marginal rate is the same for everyone so there aren't all these complexities and arbitrage games, and at lower incomes the credit stands in for a lot of assistance programs so you don't get all the marginal rate cliffs from overlapping phase outs.

replies(1): >>46211412 #
34. BeetleB ◴[] No.46210726{4}[source]
Bonus Depreciation:

https://tax.thomsonreuters.com/en/glossary/bonus-depreciatio...

Cost Segregation:

https://warrenaverett.com/insights/what-is-cost-segregation/

I believe bonus depreciation is time limited (unless Congress renews it).

replies(1): >>46212982 #
35. georgefrowny ◴[] No.46210892{4}[source]
> There are few discounts to be had and every single fee is its own battle.

Also if you take a 10% gamble on a strategy to save 50k and it backfires and lands you with a 500k legal bill, that's just the cost of business to a big (or even not that big) company, but it'd be absolutely ruinous to private individuals.

36. ◴[] No.46210901{4}[source]
37. bpt3 ◴[] No.46211114[source]
> I wonder: if you added it all up, would a flat tax (which is nominally regressive) actually be more progressive than the regressive taxes we have?

Absolutely not. The US has the most progressive federal tax code in the OECD, mainly because we don't have a VAT like most other countries.

Nearly all of the loopholes you mention are at the federal level, where half of the households in the nation pay <= $0 in income tax.

38. ceejayoz ◴[] No.46211412{3}[source]
> Now everyone pays e.g. 30% but gets a $12,000 credit, so someone who makes $40,000 is effectively paying zero, someone who makes $80,000 is effectively paying 15% and the effective rate approaches 30% as the number goes up.

This only maybe works if you count capital gains as regular income. Otherwise they do the Steve Jobs $1 salary thing.

Even the capital gains can be largely evaded. https://www.propublica.org/article/billionaires-tax-avoidanc... https://www.propublica.org/article/lord-of-the-roths-how-tec... etc.

replies(1): >>46224512 #
39. rmah ◴[] No.46211823[source]
You can't use unrealized capital losses (property paper losses) or even realized losses to offset property tax, you can only offset realized losses against realized gains for income taxes.
40. bpt3 ◴[] No.46211872{4}[source]
You might be right about the 1031 exchange, but that has almost nothing to do with property taxes.

The homestead exemptions are very small or non-existent in some states, but I believe they are fairly substantial in the south. Ultimately, my point was that they are completely wrong in that I don't know of a single locality where landlords are given discounts on property taxes but owner occupied homes have to pay full freight, but the opposite is true in at least some cases. They could be talking about developer incentives for new construction, but that's not the same thing IMO and it's difficult to understand what they meant.

It's very, very hard to talk to people who have such strong, completely uninformed opinions and seem to be completely unwilling to even attempt to educate themselves on the topic. To be clear, this is not pointed at you, I'm just not willing to invest the time you did to seriously guess at what the parent poster was going on about.

41. mx7zysuj4xew ◴[] No.46211881[source]
Ah yes, the down votes have started I forgot that this is a forum for the rent seeking class
replies(1): >>46214935 #
42. Projectiboga ◴[] No.46212714[source]
Depreciation is mandatory, your cost basis declines while inflation slowly pushes up the value, which leads to a type of phantom gain. There are abilities for individuals to lower their tax bill as there are breaks. But for a Mom & Pop small landlord the tax situation can be tough. 1031 exchanges are tricky for small investors as you have to exchange into a situation with the same mortgage. A big real estate corp can borrow against their total equity, rather than taking a mortgage on the new property. So they can roll their equity into the new deal tax free. This is especially lucurative to buying cheap, rennovating and then selling to another corp. And what isn't discussed is there is a huge amount of "carried interest" deferred profits. That tax break was intended for high risk venture capital investments but in the 80s and 90s it became used for speculative and even day trading. https://www.pgpf.org/article/what-is-the-carried-interest-lo...
43. gamblor956 ◴[] No.46212968{5}[source]
This is almost completely wrong.

First, depreciation on real property is about 27 years. 80k annual depreciation indicates a 2.2m purchase price.

Corporate capital gains don't get a special rate. They're taxed the same as regular corporate income. The 1031 like kind exchange is also very difficult to achieve as the bar is very high even under the Trump admin.

replies(1): >>46218417 #
44. gamblor956 ◴[] No.46212982{5}[source]
Residential rental property does not qualify for bonus depreciation.
replies(1): >>46214018 #
45. CGMthrowaway ◴[] No.46214018{6}[source]
The building shell does not. But 5 7 and 15 year components (appliances, cabinets, carpet, site utilities, landscaping, fence, sidewalks, etc) are eligible, that is the point of cost seg
46. lemper ◴[] No.46214935{3}[source]
not really, mate. usually people downvote replies that add nothing of substance or something similar to reddit reaction reply, you get the gist. but yes, this is a forum of rent-seeking class.
replies(1): >>46222212 #
47. triceratops ◴[] No.46216613{3}[source]
It's true depreciation reduces your cost basis and creates a higher capital gain. But the gain can be rolled into another property with a 1031 exchange, deferring taxes. I already said this in the comment you responded to.

Homeowners get a tax exemption but only up to a certain amount in gains.

replies(1): >>46224556 #
48. BeetleB ◴[] No.46218417{6}[source]
> First, depreciation on real property is about 27 years.

That's straight line depreciation. Look elsewhere in the thread and you'll see cost segregation and bonus depreciation. To give you an idea, I once invested $50K in a multifamily property and my depreciation for the first year was $18K. I never paid taxes on any of my income (but did pay more taxes when it was sold due to the lowered cost basis).

49. burnt-resistor ◴[] No.46220802{5}[source]
Yep and yep.
50. red-iron-pine ◴[] No.46222212{4}[source]
nah HN has some pretty aggressive biases.

a lot of temporarily embarrassed millionaires, some of whom may actually cross that threshold.

51. AnthonyMouse ◴[] No.46224512{4}[source]
> This only maybe works if you count capital gains as regular income.

Yes, that's how a flat tax works. It's flat, for everything.

The nominal reason capital gains has a lower rate is that the amount of the gain is calculated without respect to inflation. But that's dumb; just use the normal rate and actually do the inflation adjustment from the time of purchase.

52. AnthonyMouse ◴[] No.46224556{4}[source]
> But the gain can be rolled into another property with a 1031 exchange, deferring taxes. I already said this in the comment you responded to.

They can also keep the property forever and continue renting it out, and then never realize the gain. But in both cases that means they don't get to realize the gain -- or even recover their original principal -- except insofar as they're renting it out, and the rent is taxable income.