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1163 points DaveZale | 57 comments | | HN request time: 0.207s | source | bottom
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max_ ◴[] No.44770751[source]
"More than half of Helsinki’s streets now have speed limits of 30 km/h."

This is the only secret.

People over speeding is what kills.

replies(15): >>44770777 #>>44770835 #>>44770930 #>>44770933 #>>44770965 #>>44771249 #>>44771579 #>>44771659 #>>44771841 #>>44771921 #>>44772000 #>>44772213 #>>44772231 #>>44776460 #>>44779615 #
1. astura ◴[] No.44770777[source]
For dumb Americans like me - that 18.641 miles/hr.
replies(3): >>44770819 #>>44774101 #>>44779652 #
2. para_parolu ◴[] No.44770839[source]
Clearly it’s opposite of killing
3. monster_truck ◴[] No.44770863[source]
Something tells me you play on your phone while driving anyways
4. sapiogram ◴[] No.44770886[source]
Making drivers miserable is part of the intention, they want people to drive less because it's annoying as hell for everyone else.
replies(3): >>44771185 #>>44771499 #>>44775096 #
5. 9dev ◴[] No.44770895[source]
Not as painful as getting run over, apparently.
replies(1): >>44771478 #
6. SoftTalker ◴[] No.44771049[source]
I agree, but if the streets are set up accordingly, it's about as fast as you'd normally want to drive anyway.

For the standard US road with 12-foot-wide lanes and generally straight-ahead routes, 20mph does feel very slow. I've driven on some roads though where narrower lanes, winding paths, and other "traffic calming" features contribute to a sense that 20mph is a reasonable speed.

replies(1): >>44774655 #
7. squigz ◴[] No.44771114[source]
Sorry to say but if we can reduce traffic accidents by a significant margin this way, people being annoyed at having to drive slower is a fine price to pay.
8. BolexNOLA ◴[] No.44771154[source]
It may feel like you aren’t going very fast, but at the end of the day you’re probably only arriving at your location a couple of minutes later than you normally would and when applied at scale this could potentially save thousands if not tens of thousands of lives a year depending on how widely this is adopted. Hell maybe hundreds of thousands, but I don’t know the numbers well enough to make a claim that high, seems steep at first glance.

Surely we can agree the pros outweigh the cons here? I can wake up 5-10 minutes earlier for safer roads.

replies(1): >>44771220 #
9. jmkni ◴[] No.44771185{3}[source]
That's fine if the public transport is up to scratch, as well as the cycling infrastructure.

Where I live it's woefully inadequate making driving the only viable option for most journeys.

This has a knock on effect of making cycling down right dangerous in places, because of all the cars + relatively high speed limits, like I wouldn't want to cycle from my house to work, it would be at best unpleasant, and I would be taking my life in my hands on some of the roads.

replies(2): >>44771349 #>>44774931 #
10. graevy ◴[] No.44771191[source]
i think a large part of this that often goes unstated is the suburban sprawl that causes people to need to drive longer distances near pedestrians to begin with -- do you live in an area with wide streets, many single-family homes, and parking lots? when i've lived in city neighborhoods with dense housing i've only had to drive far/fast to leave, and when i've lived in the middle of nowhere i wasn't at risk of flattening pedestrians
11. echelon_musk ◴[] No.44771220{3}[source]
> you’re probably only arriving at your location a couple of minutes later than you normally would

That depends on the total journey distance.

replies(2): >>44771277 #>>44773009 #
12. jeffbee ◴[] No.44771227[source]
If we were a real country, we would actively hunt down people who express this sentiment and seize their vehicles until after they satisfy a psychological exam.
replies(2): >>44771435 #>>44771666 #
13. crote ◴[] No.44771277{4}[source]
No, it doesn't. Those low speed limits are only used for smaller residential streets. It only impacts the part of your journey from your home to the edge of your neighbourhood, and the same at your destination. Regardless of journey distance, the vast majority of your trip will be spend driving on roads intended for through traffic - which will of course still have a higher speed limit.

Percentage-wise it is only going to meaningfully impact your travel time if you stay within your own neighbourhood. At which point the only logical response can be: why are you even taking the car?

replies(1): >>44772139 #
14. CalRobert ◴[] No.44771349{4}[source]
Streets with low speeds are themselves decent bike infrastructure.
replies(1): >>44771484 #
15. ◴[] No.44771435{3}[source]
16. jmkni ◴[] No.44771484{5}[source]
If people actually stick to those speed limits.
replies(1): >>44771673 #
17. userbinator ◴[] No.44771499{3}[source]
And those with that intention are authoritarians that need to be kept out of government.
replies(4): >>44771651 #>>44771794 #>>44771911 #>>44772004 #
18. knome ◴[] No.44771605{4}[source]
Looking both ways is undone if drivers are speeding, not bothering to stop at stop signs and being generally unpredictable and dangerous.

Blaming pedestrians for getting run over by speeders that are too impatient to drive at safe speeds in residential areas is a ludicrous opinion to take.

replies(2): >>44772869 #>>44774019 #
19. Muromec ◴[] No.44771651{4}[source]
But Finland is a democracy. People clearly voted for it.
20. Muromec ◴[] No.44771666{3}[source]
And then if they fail the exam, appoint to the public office.
replies(1): >>44771854 #
21. CalRobert ◴[] No.44771673{6}[source]
Yeah, needs to be in the design instead of a dumb sign
replies(1): >>44772849 #
22. ◴[] No.44771794{4}[source]
23. jeffbee ◴[] No.44771854{4}[source]
Thereby increasing the number of officials without access to cars? A diabolical plan!
replies(1): >>44771997 #
24. perching_aix ◴[] No.44771911{4}[source]
I don't claim to have the perfect definition for authoritarian behavior, but I would say that intending to consolidate authority is pretty key to it. Which making drivers' life miserable isn't really connected to, or at least I really don't see it.

Otherwise, the typical government is a central authority made up of people, carrying out lawmaking, adjudication, and enforcement activities [0], and so basically all of them could be characterized this way, with sufficient bad faith. So I'm not sure that's a very meaningful claim.

It definitely could be a misuse of power regardless though, but there's no evidence that I see in your comment that would suggest it was the officials in question misusing their powers rather than aligning with community sentiment or interests.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_powers

replies(1): >>44773348 #
25. Muromec ◴[] No.44771997{5}[source]
Everybody gets a personal chauffeur and the problem is solved. Check and mate, dirty commie urbanistas.
26. jdiff ◴[] No.44772004{4}[source]
Authoritarian has a definition, it's not just "people who make laws that keep me from doing what I want."

People in the USA still complain in the same way today about laws mandating seat belt usage, but it's still not authoritarian. It's a net positive for the wearer and everyone around them, and it's incredibly childish to push back on something for no other reason than because someone is telling you to do it.

replies(2): >>44772911 #>>44773289 #
27. everforward ◴[] No.44772139{5}[source]
Fwiw, this is how my American neighborhood is set up and it's completely tolerable. Nobody is more than 5 or 6 blocks from a "through traffic road".

It's also got stop signs on virtually every intersection, so speeding is basically gone. A lot of people ignore speed limits, but I've never met anyone that blanket ignores stop signs on 4 way intersections. You're not getting much faster than 20mph in a single city block without making a very obvious amount of noise (at least in an ICE).

28. frosted-flakes ◴[] No.44772849{7}[source]
Good design is just that: de-sign. US roads have so. many. signs. Instead of just designing the roads and streets to not need signs in the first place.
29. userbinator ◴[] No.44772869{5}[source]
If you can't estimate how fast traffic is moving, you are either a child too young to cross unattended, or an idiot deserving of your fate.

Pedestrians have far better visibility and can stop or change directions far more quickly than the slowest car.

replies(2): >>44775056 #>>44776264 #
30. userbinator ◴[] No.44772911{5}[source]
New Hampshire is a state with no seat belt laws, yet it's near the bottom of traffic fatality rates in the US:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_road_de...

In the EU, Germany infamously has roads with no speed limits, but its traffic fatality rate isn't high either.

replies(1): >>44774067 #
31. BolexNOLA ◴[] No.44773009{4}[source]
If you have to go a meaningful distance you are going on highways, interstates, etc. where this is irrelevant. Anywhere super dense where this would matter likely has a more robust train/subway system than other parts of the country. The % that falls in between is likely very small.
32. Ray20 ◴[] No.44773289{5}[source]
>It's a net positive for the wearer and everyone around them

This is literally the argument autocrats use for any authoritarian law they pass.

replies(1): >>44803394 #
33. Ray20 ◴[] No.44773348{5}[source]
In my understanding, authoritarianism is not only defined by the desire to strengthen their own power, but also by the desire to bring the way of life of all other people in line with their own moral values.

For example, the persecution of homosexuals is widely recognized as an authoritarian behavior and has nothing to do with consolidate of authority

replies(2): >>44774446 #>>44781080 #
34. ◴[] No.44773572[source]
35. wyre ◴[] No.44774019{5}[source]
I’d go a step further and say blaming pedestrians for getting ran over when a driver can’t pay attention to avoid them is a ludicrous opinion. If anyone disagrees I ask what traffic rule is more important than a human life?
replies(1): >>44780231 #
36. petre ◴[] No.44774067{6}[source]
The statistic is almost funny to looking at, seeing SC at the top of the list with 40% more fatalities as the next state.

Germany only has no speed limits on some Autobahns. But you mostly end up in a Stau or Baustelle anyway, so it's not that exciting.

37. Sharlin ◴[] No.44774101[source]
For dumb Americans like you who haven’t heard of significant figures, it’s 20 mi/hr. Mayybe 18 mi/h but that’s stretching it.
38. bitmasher9 ◴[] No.44774446{6}[source]
The persecution of homosexuals absolutely has an impact on consolidating authority.

* Some of your political opponents will be homosexual, so it gives you an avenue to remove them. You can turn a blind eye to your political allies, if they are discrete.

* You can use the accusation to persecute anyone.

* It sets the frame that the authority governs every private aspect of your life.

replies(1): >>44777981 #
39. zahlman ◴[] No.44774570[source]
Try checking the average speed (total distance / total time) on your next outing. You might be surprised.
40. timeon ◴[] No.44774655{3}[source]
Yes narrower lanes is "traffic calming" in itself. Residential roads and city streeets should have different lanes than highways.
41. Earw0rm ◴[] No.44774931{4}[source]
Even where public transport and cycling infra is more than adequate, you still have to restrict cars.

Otherwise some people will choose driving to an extent that it screws up the public transport for everyone else.

At least that's the lesson from London's buses. Paris built a more extensive metro system (London's tube is equivalent in the areas where it operates, but less than half the city is within 15 minutes walk of a Tube stop) so that part is deconflicted at least.

But Paris is running into the same issue as they try to build out their cycle network. It can't be done without restricting cars, much to the annoyance of those who've built lifestyles around driving.

Which really isn't at all necessary in a city like London or Paris, but that doesn't mean people don't do it.

I'm not ideologically against people driving, especially EVs, but on a practical level it seems to be very difficult to accommodate demand for driving in a dense-enough-to-be-interesting city without screwing everything else up: pedestrian and cycling safety, bus reliability, street space usage, noise and air quality.

replies(1): >>44775492 #
42. userbinator ◴[] No.44775056{6}[source]
Apparently the laws of physics are lost on those who don't believe me.
43. scns ◴[] No.44775096{3}[source]
The intention is to prevent accidents. Encountering 30kmh zones in strange places means there have been loads of them.
44. vladvasiliu ◴[] No.44775492{5}[source]
What do you mean by "Paris"? If it's the City of Paris (Paris intra-muros), then it's not comparable to London in terms of size or density. IMO, for the purposes of this discussion, Paris should mean the whole Paris region, since most of the people live outside the actual city limits. And in those areas, access to public transportation is hit or miss. Some people are close to suburban trains, but many are not.

Then, another consideration, which is also very important, is what the available transportation actually looks like. By that I mean how often are there trains, how reliable are they? And, in Paris and probably Central London, too, are you actually able to get on board, or do you need to wait 3 trains packed to the brim?

I don't know about London, but in Paris, the suburban trains have quite poor punctuality.

Note that most car traffic in Paris is actually people from outside the city proper, so those who are most affected by these transit issues.

Additionally, a lot of traffic also goes from suburb to suburb, which, currently, is a terribly bad joke transport-wise. When I was in college, the drive from my parents' house was around 20-30 minutes. Public transit was over one hour with multiple changes, one of which had around one minute of leeway before a 30 minute wait. They are building new circular lines around Paris, but they won't be ready for a few years.

As someone who ever only walks or takes public transit I'm all for limiting car noise and pollution. But what I'd love to see is some form of improvement of the offer (a carrot). Riding around packed like sardines in trains with questionable reliability is a tough sell. I'm lucky enough I can modulate my commute hours to avoid peak times, but not everyone is so lucky. Right now, the city is mostly spending money on making driving hell (all stick).

And bikes are fine, I guess, if you have where to store them. I wouldn't leave any kind of bike unattended around my office. There's also a bike sharing scheme which used to be nice, but for a few months now it's basically impossible to find a usable bike. And I tend to avoid peak times for those, too.

replies(1): >>44776568 #
45. Mawr ◴[] No.44776253{4}[source]
Whatever happened to the person choosing to operate dangerous machinery being the one responsible for it? Putting the onus of safety on everyone else is incredibly selfish and of course illogical.

Oh, and I'll be sure to tell my blind friend to look both ways before crossing.

replies(1): >>44780212 #
46. Mawr ◴[] No.44776264{6}[source]
Were you forced to operate your vehicle by the pedestrian crossing the street? No? Then take responsibility for your own damn choices. You're the one endangering everyone around you, not the pedestrians.
replies(1): >>44780176 #
47. Earw0rm ◴[] No.44776568{6}[source]
London is mostly ok for overcrowding since the pandemic and remote working. Before that it was a big problem.

The main problem with the buses isn't a lack of them, but that they get held up by endless car traffic. When the roads are quiet, they're efficient.

Suburb to suburb is a challenge for most cities, but I'm not convinced people need to do that as much as they say, it's more they do it because they can. There's some journeys here that are awkward without driving, but in a city of ten million people you're pretty spoilt for choice either way.

I've only visited Paris for work and tourism, but the rail network seems denser there and better set up for short trips - London's trains are fast but they rely on buses to fill the gaps and for short trips: the Deep Tube stations take you quite a long time to get to the platform, so if you're going less than about 2km it's often quicker to walk.

And in the centre of town, walking is as quick as the bus, hire bikes are the quickest way of getting around, but when I've used them I've found they can be in poor condition.

48. Ray20 ◴[] No.44777981{7}[source]
Amazing mental gymnastics, literally every point is applicable to prosecution for not wearing a seat belt.

Only there are even more people who do not wear seat belts than practicing homosexuals, i.e. by your logic, a fine for not wearing a seat belt is MORE AUTHORITARIAN than the law on persecuting homosexuals.

replies(1): >>44778373 #
49. bitmasher9 ◴[] No.44778373{8}[source]
Sorry, I was not making a point about the larger discussion about wearing a seatbelt.

While I agree that we shouldn’t have laws regulating seatbelt usage (for adults), I find your comparison disgusting and think it does more harm than good for gaining support.

50. EasyMark ◴[] No.44779652[source]
using a different units system doesn't make you dumb. Otherwise the USA would still be navel gazing instead of star gazing
51. userbinator ◴[] No.44780176{7}[source]
Were you forced to cross the street without looking either?

What fucking retarded arguments these anti-car radicalists spew...

52. userbinator ◴[] No.44780212{5}[source]
If you can't see how the laws of physics work, then I have no interest in talking to you.

Blind people have their own accommodations, so they're irrelevant to this stupid argument.

53. userbinator ◴[] No.44780231{6}[source]
If anyone disagrees I ask what traffic rule is more important than a human life?

How is that relevant? This is simple physics, the laws of reality which you seem to be desperately trying to avoid to make some sort of ideological point.

replies(1): >>44793628 #
54. perching_aix ◴[] No.44781080{6}[source]
> the persecution of homosexuals is widely recognized as an authoritarian behavior

I have unfortunately missed out on that then, because I both do not recognize it as authoritarian behavior, nor do I recognize that recognition to be widely established at all.

There is a distinct correlation between authoritarian regimes and homosexuals being persecuted that I'm also aware of, but this is absolutely the first time I've ever heard someone describe the persecution of homosexuals as an authoritarian behavior.

Maybe we read the phrase here different? When I read "authoritarian behavior" I do not read it as "behavior associated with authoritarians", but instead as "behavior that is authoritarian in its nature".

replies(1): >>44785485 #
55. Ray20 ◴[] No.44785485{7}[source]
> nor do I recognize that recognition to be widely established at all.

> absolutely the first time I've ever heard someone describe the persecution of homosexuals as an authoritarian behavior

Google defines "authoritarian" even more broadly than I do:

> favouring or enforcing strict obedience to authority at the expense of personal freedom.

So I would say that that recognition is established extremely wide.

56. wyre ◴[] No.44793628{7}[source]
What do you mean? Rules, laws, and blame are not simple physics. It is a driver's responsibility to pay attention when driving. I will ask again in a different way: what situation is it correct to blame a non-suicidal pedestrian for their own death when struck by an automobile? Surely it is an ideological point that I believe there is no situation where I think the pedestrian should be at fault for being hit by a car, but if you disagree (it seems like you do) I ask why you believe the rights of the automobile is greater than the cost of a human life.
57. jdiff ◴[] No.44803394{6}[source]
There are many phrases, sentences, and concepts that don't generalize when you remove the facts at hand.