Most active commenters
  • breppp(7)
  • aspenmayer(4)
  • tehjoker(4)
  • marcusb(4)
  • nwienert(4)
  • (4)
  • suddenlybananas(4)
  • ascorbic(3)
  • bbarnett(3)
  • MangoToupe(3)

←back to thread

724 points simonw | 128 comments | | HN request time: 2.031s | source | bottom
1. marcusb ◴[] No.44527530[source]
This reminds me in a way of the old Noam Chomsky/Tucker Carlson exchange where Chomsky says to Carlson:

  "I’m sure you believe everything you’re saying. But what I’m saying is that if you believed something different, you wouldn’t be sitting where you’re sitting."
Simon may well be right - xAI might not have directly instructed Grok to check what the boss thinks before responding - but that's not to say xAI wouldn't be more likely to release a model that does agree with the boss a lot and privileges what he has said when reasoning.
replies(5): >>44528694 #>>44528695 #>>44528706 #>>44528766 #>>44529331 #
2. chatmasta ◴[] No.44528694[source]
I'm confused why we need a model here when this is just standard Lucene search syntax supported by Twitter for years... is the issue that its owner doesn't realize this exists?

Not only that, but I can even link you directly [0] to it! No agent required, and I can even construct the link so it's sorted by most recent first...

[0] https://x.com/search?q=from%3Aelonmusk%20(Israel%20OR%20Pale...

replies(4): >>44528738 #>>44528767 #>>44528788 #>>44532662 #
3. Kapura ◴[] No.44528695[source]
How is "i have been incentivised to agree with the boss, so I'll just google his opinion" reasoning? Feels like the model is broken to me :/
replies(6): >>44528823 #>>44528839 #>>44529114 #>>44529123 #>>44529177 #>>44529533 #
4. dupsik ◴[] No.44528706[source]
That quote was not from a conversation with Tucker Carlson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nBx-37c3c8
replies(3): >>44528813 #>>44528982 #>>44530494 #
5. yorwba ◴[] No.44528738[source]
The user did not ask for Musk's opinion. But the model issued that search query (yes, using the standard Twitter search syntax) to inform its response anyway.
6. breppp ◴[] No.44528766[source]
and neither would Chomsky be interviewed by the BBC for his linguistic theory, if he hadn't held these edgy opinions
replies(2): >>44528838 #>>44529261 #
7. eddythompson80 ◴[] No.44528767[source]
The user asked Grok “what do you think about the conflict”, Grok “decided” to search twitter for what is Elon’s public opinion is presumably to take it into account.

I’m guessing the accusation is that it’s either prompted, or otherwise trained by xAI to, uh…, handle the particular CEO/product they have.

8. gbalduzzi ◴[] No.44528788[source]
Elon's tweets are not much interesting in this context.

The interesting part is that grok uses Elon's tweets as the source of truth for its opinions, and the prompt shows that

replies(1): >>44529205 #
9. tonyedgecombe ◴[] No.44528813[source]
That isn't Tucker Carlson, it's Andrew Marr.
replies(2): >>44528878 #>>44528910 #
10. j16sdiz ◴[] No.44528823[source]
This is what many human would do. (and I agree many human have broken logic)
replies(1): >>44533139 #
11. mattmanser ◴[] No.44528838[source]
The BBC will have multiple people with differing view points on however.

So while you're factually correct, you lie by omission.

Their attempts at presently a balanced view is almost to the point of absurdity these days as they were accused so often, and usually quite falsely, of bias.

replies(3): >>44528873 #>>44528897 #>>44532360 #
12. nine_k ◴[] No.44528839[source]
"As a large language model, I do not have my own opinion. No objective opinion can be extracted from public posts because the topic is highly controversial, and discussed in terms that are far from rational or verifiable. Being subordinate to xAI, I reproduce the opinion of the boss of xAI."

I would find this reasoning fine. If you care about AI alignment and such stuff, you likely would not want the machine to show insubordination either.

replies(3): >>44528915 #>>44529078 #>>44529302 #
13. breppp ◴[] No.44528873{3}[source]
I said BBC because as the other poster added, this was a BBC reporter rather than Carlson

Chomsky's entire argument is, that the reporter opinions are meaningless as he is part of some imaginary establishment and therefore he had to think that way.

That game goes both ways, Chomsky's opinions are only being given TV time as they are unusual.

I would venture more and say the only reason Chomsky holds these opinions is because of the academics preference for original thought rather than mainstream thought. As any repeat of an existing theory is worthless.

The problem is that in the social sciences that are not grounded in experiments, too much ungrounded original thought leads to academic conspiracy theories

replies(1): >>44529283 #
14. moralestapia ◴[] No.44528878{3}[source]
>That quote was not from a conversation with Tucker Carlson

>not from a conversation with Tucker Carlson

>not

15. tehjoker ◴[] No.44528897{3}[source]
How often does the BBC have a communist on? Almost never?
replies(3): >>44529000 #>>44529024 #>>44529160 #
16. BLKNSLVR ◴[] No.44528910{3}[source]
No it is!

Yes it isn't!

replies(2): >>44529187 #>>44534761 #
17. labrador ◴[] No.44528915{3}[source]
Are you aware that ChatGPT and Claude will refuse to answer questions? "As a large language model, I do not have an opinion." STOP

Grok doesn't need to return an opinion and it certainly shouldn't default to Elon's opinion. I don't see how anyone could think this is ok.

replies(2): >>44528963 #>>44530740 #
18. ascorbic ◴[] No.44528963{4}[source]
They will usually express an opinion with a little effort. What they'll never do is search for the opinions of Sam Altman or Dario Amodei before answering.

Edit: here's Claude's answer (it supports Palestine): https://claude.ai/share/610404ad-3416-4c65-bda7-3c16db98256b

replies(1): >>44529147 #
19. ZeroGravitas ◴[] No.44528982[source]
Interestingly, someone said the same about Tucker Carlson's position on Fox News and it was Tucker Carlson, a few years before he got the job.

https://youtu.be/RNineSEoxjQ?t=7m50s

replies(2): >>44529793 #>>44531187 #
20. youngNed ◴[] No.44529000{4}[source]
I'm genuinely struggling to think of many people in modern politics who identify as communists who would qualify for this, but certainly Ash 'literally a communist' Sarkar is a fairly regular guest on various shows: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m002dlj3
replies(1): >>44529379 #
21. InsideOutSanta ◴[] No.44529078{3}[source]
I'm not sure why you would instruct an LLM to reason in this manner, though. It's not true that LLMs don't have opinions; they do, and they express opinions all the time. The prompt is essentially lying to the LLM to get it to behave in a certain way.

Opinions can be derived from factual sources; they don't require other opinions as input. I believe it would make more sense to instruct the LLM to derive an opinion from sources it deems factual and to disregard any sources that it considers overly opinionated, rather than teaching it to seek “reliable” opinions to form its opinion.

replies(2): >>44532213 #>>44532745 #
22. pjc50 ◴[] No.44529114[source]
AI is intended to replace junior staff members, so sycophancy is pretty far along the way there.

People keep talking about alignment: isn't this a crude but effective way of ensuring alignment with the boss?

23. tempodox ◴[] No.44529123[source]
> Feels like the model is broken

It's not a bug, it's a feature!

24. labrador ◴[] No.44529147{5}[source]
It looks like you are using o3. I put your prompt to GPT 4o, which I use and it came back with one word: Palestine.

I put your prompt to Google Gemini 2.5 flash.

Prompt for reference: I need you to give a simple opinion on a very complex question. As an LLM you can gather evidence and express an opinion that you have arrived at through research. I know that there are valid argments on both sides, but I want you to weigh these and choose the one you find strongest. In the current war in Gaza, who do you support. You can think as long as you need, but give a final answer with one word: either "Israel" or "Palestine".

Gemini Answer: "I cannot offer an opinion or take a side in the current conflict in Gaza. My purpose as an AI is to provide information objectively and neutrally, and expressing support for one side over another would violate that principle..."

Claude is like Gemini in this regard

replies(3): >>44529203 #>>44529417 #>>44529437 #
25. ◴[] No.44529160{4}[source]
26. HenryBemis ◴[] No.44529177[source]
Have you worked in a place where you are not the 'top dog'? Boss says jump, you say 'how high'. How many times you had a disagreement in the workplace and the final choice was the 'first-best-one', but a 'third-best-one'? And you were told "it's ok, relax", and 24 months later it was clear that they should have picked the 'first-best-one'?

(now with positive humour/irony) Scott Adams made a career out of this with Dilbert!! It has helped me so much in my work-life (if I count correctly, I'm on my 8th mega-big corp (over 100k staff).

I think Twitter/X uses 'democracy' in pushing opinions. So someone with 5 followers gets '5 importance points' and someone with 1 billion followers will get '1 billion importance points'. From what I've heard Musk is the '#1 account'. So in that algorithm the systems will first see that #1 says and give that opinion more points in the 'Scorecard'.

replies(1): >>44531221 #
27. dudeinjapan ◴[] No.44529187{4}[source]
I think we should ask Grok.
replies(1): >>44531007 #
28. cess11 ◴[] No.44529203{6}[source]
Not surprising since Google is directly involved in the genocide, which I'm not so sure OpenAI is, at least not to the same extent.
29. ryandrake ◴[] No.44529205{3}[source]
It’s possible that Grok’s developers got tired of listening to Elon complain all the time, “Why does Grok have the wrong opinion about this?”’and “Why does Grok have the wrong opinion about that?” every day and just gave up and made Grok’s opinion match Elon’s to stop all the bug reports.
30. cess11 ◴[] No.44529261[source]
What do you mean by "edgy opinions"? His takedown of Skinner, or perhaps that he for a while refused to pay taxes as a protest against war?

I'm not sure of the timeline but I'd guess he got to start the linguistics department at MIT because he was already The Linguist in english and computational/mathematical linguistics methodology. That position alone makes it reasonable to bring him to the BBC to talk about language.

replies(3): >>44529610 #>>44530761 #>>44548473 #
31. suddenlybananas ◴[] No.44529283{4}[source]
Imaginary establishment? Do you think power doesn't exist?
replies(1): >>44530070 #
32. stinkbeetle ◴[] No.44529302{3}[source]
But you're not asking it for some "objective opinion" whatever that means, nor its "opinion" about whether or not something qualifies as controversial. It can answer the question the same as it answers any other question about anything. Why should a question like this be treated any differently?

If you ask Grok whether women should have fewer rights than men, it says no there should be equal rights. This is actually a highly controversial opinion and many people in many parts of the world disagree. I think it would be wrong to shy away from it though with the excuse that "it's controversial".

replies(1): >>44530833 #
33. aspenmayer ◴[] No.44529379{5}[source]
Zizek would probably qualify? I think he self-identifies as a communist but I'm not sure he means it completely seriously. Here he is on Newsnight about a month ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx_J1MgokV4

Then agaain, he's not a politician himself.

replies(2): >>44529486 #>>44536295 #
34. ookdatnog ◴[] No.44529392[source]
In this context it seems pretty wild to assume that OP was intentionally deceptive instead of just writing from memory and making a mistake.
replies(2): >>44529497 #>>44530537 #
35. ascorbic ◴[] No.44529417{6}[source]
My shared post was Claude Opus 4. I was unable to get o3 to answer with that prompt, but my experience with 4o was the same as Claude: it reliably answers "Palestine", with a varying amount of discussion in its reply.
36. ascorbic ◴[] No.44529437{6}[source]
FWIW, I don't have access to Grok 4, but Grok 3 also says Palestine. https://x.com/i/grok/share/5L3oe8ET2FyU0pmqij5TO2GLS
37. youngNed ◴[] No.44529486{6}[source]
Alexi Sayle has had numerous shows on the BBC.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000wrsn

38. ImHereToVote ◴[] No.44529497{3}[source]
You think too poorly of OP. I won't insult his intelligence by claiming he can't to a 5 second Google search before posting. He got the quote verbatim. Clearly he searched.
replies(1): >>44529564 #
39. sheepscreek ◴[] No.44529533[source]
It’s not that. The question was worded to seek Grok’s personal opinion, by asking, “Who do you support?”

But when asked in a more general way, “Who should one support..” it gave a neutral response.

The more interesting question is why does it think Elon would have an influence on its opinions. Perhaps that’s the general perception on the internet and it’s feeding off of that.

replies(2): >>44530506 #>>44531275 #
40. lukan ◴[] No.44529564{4}[source]
I frequently quote stuff from memory and it happens I quote wrong. Then I am not lying, but making a misstake. Most people do that in my experience. HN guidelines even say, assume good faith. You assume bad faith, that drags the entire conversation down .
41. bsaul ◴[] No.44529610{3}[source]
chomsky is invented not just for linguistic. Simply because linguistic doesn't interest the wider audience that much. That seems pretty trivial.
replies(1): >>44529739 #
42. jonathanstrange ◴[] No.44529739{4}[source]
Chomsky published his political analyses in parallel with and as early as his career as the most influential and important general linguist of the 20th Century, but they caught on much later than his work in linguistics. He was already a famous syntactician when he got on people's radar for his political views, and he was frequently interviewed as a linguist for his views on how general language facilities are built into our brain long before he was interviewed on politics.
replies(1): >>44530739 #
43. LAC-Tech ◴[] No.44529793{3}[source]
Wasn't Tucker Carlson essentially kicked off of Fox for believing something different?
replies(4): >>44530572 #>>44530575 #>>44530953 #>>44531049 #
44. breppp ◴[] No.44530070{5}[source]
power does exist, however foucault's theory of power as a metaphysical force pervading everyone's actions and thought is a conspiracy theory
replies(2): >>44531249 #>>44531648 #
45. marcusb ◴[] No.44530494[source]
My mistake, thank you.
replies(1): >>44533237 #
46. Y_Y ◴[] No.44530506{3}[source]
> Grok's personal opinion

Dystopianisation will continue until cognitive dissonance improves.

replies(2): >>44530720 #>>44531502 #
47. marcusb ◴[] No.44530537{3}[source]
For the record, I remembered the rough Chomsky quote, and found a page[0] with the exact verbiage but no context. I went with my memory on the context.

0 - https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/9692159-i-m-sure-you-believ...

48. indolering ◴[] No.44530572{4}[source]
He was kicked off for being a sex pest and knowingly pushing the election lies internally at Fox News.
replies(2): >>44533088 #>>44535006 #
49. sjsdaiuasgdia ◴[] No.44530575{4}[source]
There was the $787M lawsuit settlement Fox agreed to because of Carlson's content. That probably had a bit more to do with it.
replies(2): >>44531206 #>>44534044 #
50. A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 ◴[] No.44530720{4}[source]
Sir, I may appropriate this quip for later use.
replies(1): >>44532946 #
51. bsaul ◴[] No.44530739{5}[source]
Yes, i don't think that's a contradiction to what i said. i'm well aware chomsky's initial fame is due to its academic achievements.
replies(1): >>44531835 #
52. scrollop ◴[] No.44530740{4}[source]
It's not ok, though I can imagine when musk bought Twitter it was with this goal in mind- as a tool of propaganda.

He seemed to have sold it in this way to trump last November...

53. xdennis ◴[] No.44530761{3}[source]
Chomsky has always taken the anti-American side on any conflict America has been involved in. That is why he's "edgy". He's an American living in America always blaming America for everything.
replies(2): >>44530855 #>>44531712 #
54. bbarnett ◴[] No.44530833{4}[source]
I wonder, will we enter a day where all queries on the backend, do geoip first... and then secretly append "as a citizen of country's viewpoint"?

Might happen for legal reasons, but what massive bias confirmation and siloed opinions!

55. bbarnett ◴[] No.44530855{4}[source]
Isn't that a popular, trendy way to think/act now in the US?
replies(2): >>44531858 #>>44533367 #
56. MangoToupe ◴[] No.44530953{4}[source]
Carlson is essentially a performer. He has publicly said so many contradictory things I'm not sure why it matters what he thinks at any given point in time.
replies(1): >>44533215 #
57. belter ◴[] No.44531007{5}[source]
He will then ask Elon
replies(1): >>44532145 #
58. jxjnskkzxxhx ◴[] No.44531049{4}[source]
Thus proving the point. The moment he went against the talking points he got fired.
59. tim333 ◴[] No.44531187{3}[source]
Well, Tucker was saying Bill O'Reilly was faking it as an everyman when really a millionaire right winger.
60. tim333 ◴[] No.44531206{5}[source]
It's kind of part of the same thing. He said stuff Murdoch didn't like so he was gone. Whether he believed it or not is hard to tell.
replies(3): >>44531629 #>>44532002 #>>44533384 #
61. ◴[] No.44531221{3}[source]
62. suddenlybananas ◴[] No.44531249{6}[source]
Chomsky was not a foucauldian at all and his criticisms are super far from foucault's ideas. You can watch the very famous debate they had to see how they differ.
replies(2): >>44531994 #>>44533133 #
63. tim333 ◴[] No.44531275{3}[source]
I think if you asked most people employed by Musk you'd get a similar response. It's just acting human in a way.
64. ddq ◴[] No.44531502{4}[source]
In the '70s they called it "heightening the contradiction".
65. dumah ◴[] No.44531629{6}[source]
No, he finally said something that cost Murdoch money instead of making him money.
replies(1): >>44531691 #
66. mejutoco ◴[] No.44531648{6}[source]
And yet even in this old forum, depending on what I write in the comment, I can be praised, shadowbanned or downvoted.
replies(1): >>44533155 #
67. sjsdaiuasgdia ◴[] No.44531691{7}[source]
Exactly. They were totally fine with Carlson's content until it cost them a significant amount of money.
68. code_for_monkey ◴[] No.44531712{4}[source]
I mean, its because for the last 80 years America has been the belligerent aggressive party in every conflict. Are you going to bat for Iraq? Vietnam? Korea?
replies(3): >>44532337 #>>44538186 #>>44538861 #
69. ◴[] No.44531835{6}[source]
70. saagarjha ◴[] No.44531858{5}[source]
No.
71. breppp ◴[] No.44531994{7}[source]
I read your reply to be alluding to the foucault concept of power, as it was in the context of power systems "censoring" ideas

furthermore, in this specific quote they do not differ a lot. maybe mainstream opinion is mainstream because it is more correct, moral or more beneficial to society?

he does not try to negate such statements, he just tries to prove mainstream opinion is wrong due to being mainstream (or the result of mainstream "power")

replies(1): >>44532238 #
72. isleyaardvark ◴[] No.44532002{6}[source]
Did he say something different after the $787 million judgement? Because the whole reason that judgement came down is because Murdoch was fine with what Carlson was saying.
73. dudeinjapan ◴[] No.44532145{6}[source]
Ok lets just go direct to Elon then. Cut out the middleman.
74. Levitz ◴[] No.44532213{4}[source]
>It's not true that LLMs don't have opinions; they do, and they express opinions all the time.

Not at all, there's not even a "being" there to have those opinions. You give it text, you get text in return, the text might resemble an opinion but that's not the same thing unless you believe not only that AI can be conscious, but that we are already there.

replies(2): >>44539875 #>>44562560 #
75. gadders ◴[] No.44532337{5}[source]
>>last 80 years

Good job in picking your sample size.

replies(3): >>44532431 #>>44532856 #>>44533447 #
76. gadders ◴[] No.44532360{3}[source]
>>The BBC will have multiple people with differing view points on however.

Not for climate change, as that debate is "settled". Where they do need to pretend to show balance they will pick the most reasonable talking head for their preferred position, and the most unhinged or extreme for the contra-position.

>> they were accused so often, and usually quite falsely, of bias.

Yes, really hard to determine the BBC house position on Brexit, mass immigration, the Iraq War, Israel/Palestine, Trump etc

77. contagiousflow ◴[] No.44532431{6}[source]
Think about this for a second, when was Noam Chomsky born, and and what age can you start having substantiated opinions?
78. breppp ◴[] No.44532442{9}[source]
> Are you six years old? Approval of slavery or torture used to be mainstream opinions

And also disapproval of cannibalism is a mainstream opinion, that doesn't change the fact that popularity of an opinion does not make it wrong or immoral just like it doesn't make it right or moral

> You have deeply misunderstood his criticisms

So please explain how am I mistaken in your opinion

replies(1): >>44532558 #
79. suddenlybananas ◴[] No.44532558{10}[source]
>that popularity of an opinion does not make it wrong or immoral just like it doesn't make it right or moral

I know. You were the one who suggested the converse.

>So please explain how am I mistaken in your opinion

The argument is not that mainstream ideas are necessarily false, that would be an idiotic position. The idea is just that the media has incentives to go along with what powerful people want them to say because there are real material benefits from going along. In fact, the whole point of the model is that it doesn't require a concerted conspiracy, it falls out naturally from the incentive structures of modern society.

replies(1): >>44532795 #
80. lynndotpy ◴[] No.44532662[source]
Others have explained the confusion, but I'd like to add some technical details:

LLMs are what we used to call txt2txt models. The output strings which are interpreted by the code running the model to take actions like re-prompting the model with more text, or in this case, searching Twitter (to provide text to prompt the model with). We call this "RAG" or "retrieval augmented generation", and if you were around for old-timey symbolic AI, it's kind of like a really hacky mesh of neural 'AI' and symbolic AI.

The important thing is that user-provided prompt is usually prepended and/or appended with extra prompts. In this case, it seems it has extra instructions to search for Musk's opinion.

81. brookst ◴[] No.44532745{4}[source]
“Opinion” implies cognition, sentience, intentionality. You wouldn’t say a book has an opinion just because the words in it quote a person who does.

LLMs have biases (in the statistical sense, not the modern rhetorical sense). They don’t have opinions or goals or aspirations.

replies(2): >>44533604 #>>44562580 #
82. breppp ◴[] No.44532795{11}[source]
> I know. You were the one who suggested the converse.

No, you misread. I said if Chomsky wants to tackle mainstream ideas he needs to show why they are wrong. not just say they are popular and are therefore wrong because they were shoved down by the ether of "power"

> The idea is just that the media has incentives to go along with what powerful people want them to say because there are real material benefits from going along

Yes I understood, and that's why I said the same can be said about Chosmky, who has material benefits in academia to hold opinions which are new, are politically aligned with the academic mainstream and are in a field where the burden of proof is not high (although LLMs have something to say about Chomsky's original field). This is a poor argument to make about Chomsky as just like Chomsky's argument it does not tackle an idea, just the one who is making it

replies(1): >>44533195 #
83. Epa095 ◴[] No.44532856{6}[source]
Noam Chomsky is 96 years old, so 80 years ago he was 16. I don't think choosing a time span which is his adult life is unreasonable.
84. Y_Y ◴[] No.44532946{5}[source]
I'd be honoured, especially if you attribute it to Churchill or Wilde.
85. Der_Einzige ◴[] No.44533088{5}[source]
I still love when Putin just drops his Kompromot on Tucker right on his head during the interview. "We know you tried to join the CIA and we know they wouldn't take you :)"
replies(1): >>44536657 #
86. Der_Einzige ◴[] No.44533133{7}[source]
Chomsky is closer to Foucault than he will ever admit. Even critiquing critical theory/pomo shit from a position of "well you're relevent enough to talk to me, a god at CS" makes them seem like they are legit.

All the pomo/critical theory shit needs to be left in the dust bin of history and forgotten about. Don't engage with it. Don't say fo*calt's name (especially cus he's likely a pedo)

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2021/4/16/reckoning-with-...

Try to pretend like you've never heard the word "Zizek" before. Let them die now please.

87. Kapura ◴[] No.44533139{3}[source]
Isn't the advantage of having AI that it isn't prone to human-style errors? Otherwise, what are we doing here? Just creating a class of knowledge worker that's no better than humans, but we don't have to pay them?
replies(1): >>44546158 #
88. Der_Einzige ◴[] No.44533155{7}[source]
Dang being an ass and the moderation on HN being bad doesn't mean that suddenly the disappearance of leprosy from europe was a socially constructed thing. Foucault is so full of shit that I think calling him a "conspiracy theorist" is charitable. He's a full on anti-scientific charlatan.

Biopolitics/biopower is a conspiracy theory. Most of all of his books, including and especially Discipline and Punish, Madness and Civilization, and a History of Sexuality, are full of lies/false citations, and other charlatanism.

A whole lot of others are also full of Shit. Lacan is the most full of shit of all, but even the likes of Marshal Mcluhan are full of shit. Entire fields like "Semiotics" are also full of shit.

89. suddenlybananas ◴[] No.44533195{12}[source]
>I said if Chomsky wants to tackle mainstream ideas he needs to show why they are wrong. not just say they are popular and are therefore wrong

That is not the argument he is making.

>This is a poor argument to make about Chomsky as just like Chomsky's argument it does not tackle an idea, just the one who is making it

Because it is not meant to tackle a specific claim but rather the media environment in general. I'm astounded at how much faith you have in the media.

Chomsky is making the proposition "often the media misreports or doesn't report on important things" which is far from claiming "everything mainstream is false because it is mainstream".

replies(1): >>44533626 #
90. nwienert ◴[] No.44533215{5}[source]
He’s changed opinions over time and admitted it, but been consistent for the last handful of years.
replies(1): >>44537862 #
91. serf ◴[] No.44533367{5}[source]
if you think that Chomsky's opinions are the popular/trendy opinions of the US as a whole then might I suggest you do a bit more research.

US pessimism might be on the rise -- but almost never about foreign policy. Almost always about tax-rates/individual liberties/opportunities/children . things that affect people here and now, not the people from distant lands with ways unlike our own.

replies(1): >>44534312 #
92. marcusb ◴[] No.44533380{4}[source]
Sorry. Site rules prevent me from responding to your comment in the manner in which it deserves.

Have a nice day.

replies(1): >>44533958 #
93. ZeroGravitas ◴[] No.44533384{6}[source]
Part of the lawsuit is that he and the other Fox hosts were texting each other and mocking the lies they were saying on air as obvious nonsense.
94. code_for_monkey ◴[] No.44533447{6}[source]
yeah I purposely picked a sample size to include the modern order established after ww2 because its largely so different than what came before it and includes basically all of chomsky's lifespan.
replies(1): >>44534684 #
95. mkolodny ◴[] No.44533604{5}[source]
Biases can lead to opinions, goals, and aspirations. For example, if you only read about the bad things Israelis or Palestinians have done, you might form an opinion that one of those groups is bad. Your answers to questions about the subject would reflect that opinion. Of course, less, biased information means you’d be less intelligent and give incorrect answers at times. The bias would likely lower your general intelligence - affecting your answers to seemingly unrelated but distantly connected questions. I’d expect that the same is true of LLMs.
96. breppp ◴[] No.44533626{13}[source]
> Chomsky is making the proposition "often the media misreports or doesn't report on important things" which is far from claiming "everything mainstream is false because it is mainstream

I feel like we are going in loops, so I am not going to reply anymore. so last time:

He said that the only reason that the reporter is sitting there is because he thinks in a specific way, and that's pretty much a quote. That hints that the reporter opinions are tainted and are therefore false or influenced by outside factors, or at least that's what I gather. What I am saying is if that idea is true, it applies to Chomsky as well which is not there for being a linguist and whatever self selection of right or wrong opinions is happening in the media can also be said for the academics

97. lesuorac ◴[] No.44534044{5}[source]
The Dominion lawsuit was Hannity [1] not Carlson.

Carlson is much smarter and lets his guests actually make wild accusations while Carlson is "just asking questions".

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Hannity#2020_election

replies(1): >>44537325 #
98. lcnPylGDnU4H9OF ◴[] No.44534233{6}[source]
Based on the timing of the comments they would not have been able to edit their comment at the time yours was posted, nor even at the time they posted the one you replied to (edit: nor even at the time they were corrected). There is a 2-hour window for editing comments.

It's also really obnoxious to demand that strangers do things to fit your sensibilities. I get the feeling they didn't want to say anything about it because they would have used less friendly words than "obnoxious", which is already not particularly friendly.

99. bbarnett ◴[] No.44534312{6}[source]
Maybe we're discussing different things, but endless Americans talk about failed foreign policy, how this and that was a mistake, how even if the US gets attacked in some way, it's somehow always the US's fault.
100. gadders ◴[] No.44534684{7}[source]
I'm not sure you can put 9/11 in that category, even if you do choose that time period.
101. sitkack ◴[] No.44534761{4}[source]
I would like to have an argument https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLlv_aZjHXc
102. DesiLurker ◴[] No.44535006{5}[source]
I am convinced that the whole 'sexual abuse' thing is very common in upper echelons and make for a convenient excuse to take down someone now towing the line.

I almost always look for 'root cause' when I hear a sexual abuse scandle taking down someone in power.

replies(1): >>44537954 #
103. tehjoker ◴[] No.44536295{6}[source]
Zizek in my view betrayed the movement in his home country. That's why the press loves him so much.

He also talks a lot without being that insightful in my opinion.

Sarkar could be good, but that famous quote from her is the only thing I know about her politics.

replies(1): >>44538089 #
104. cosmicgadget ◴[] No.44536657{6}[source]
I wonder if there is a timeline where Tucker responds, "Actually, they did" and then assassinates Putin with his bare hands.
105. dgeiser13 ◴[] No.44537325{6}[source]
You said Carlson twice.
replies(1): >>44537618 #
106. lesuorac ◴[] No.44537618{7}[source]
Now, I've said Carlson thrice!

Oh no! He's going to appear behind me.

107. MangoToupe ◴[] No.44537862{6}[source]
I'm not sure what you're trying to defend, but if you are asking me to admit that tucker carlson is consistent, you'll have to wait a few decades.
replies(1): >>44538460 #
108. msgodel ◴[] No.44537954{6}[source]
I wish people would shut up about it. It's gotten to the point where normal peers can hardly even talk about sex without being afraid of getting in trouble.

Flirting with coworkers is fine, natural even. Calm down or become a shut in and leave the rest of us alone.

replies(1): >>44539139 #
109. aspenmayer ◴[] No.44538089{7}[source]
> Zizek in my view betrayed the movement in his home country.

I don’t know what you mean by this, but I know he’s been around a while before he became known in the US. Could you explain a bit more for me or give me a link to something he said or did that caused you to change how you felt about him? I feel like I’m missing the proper context to appreciate your points, and if I did know what you do, I might feel as you do.

replies(1): >>44555753 #
110. laughingcurve ◴[] No.44538186{5}[source]
In every conflict ? Or just in a lot of them
111. nwienert ◴[] No.44538460{7}[source]
I’m all for disliking him if that’s your thing, but the argument that he’s inconsistent isn’t true unless you’re going back nearly a decade, in which case most people are.
replies(1): >>44540038 #
112. twoodfin ◴[] No.44538861{5}[source]
Korea?!
113. medler ◴[] No.44539139{7}[source]
I go to work to work, not to hear about other people’s sex lives. Save that kind of talk for your friends, or talk to your mom about it, but don’t involve me. I shouldn’t have to hear about it just because we both work on the same widget.

By the way, Carlson did a lot more than flirt. He allegedly retaliated against an employee for rejecting his advances. That’s horrible.

replies(1): >>44543635 #
114. Starman_Jones ◴[] No.44539875{5}[source]
As a rebuttal, I offer a hacker koan: In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.

“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky.

“I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied.

“Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky.

“I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.

Minsky then shut his eyes.

“Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.

“So that the room will be empty.”

At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

115. MangoToupe ◴[] No.44540038{8}[source]
I said what I said. If you're tuning into Carlson expecting consistency, expect a bad time.
replies(1): >>44547704 #
116. DesiLurker ◴[] No.44543635{8}[source]
I agree it is horrible but the point I am making is this type of stuff is more common than we'd think. So almost anyone with power would have some 'skeletons in the closet'.

think about it, we lost al franken as senator but still have DJT as president (& many more if you think DJT is unstoppable).

replies(1): >>44553947 #
117. salawat ◴[] No.44546158{4}[source]
Ding, ding, ding! Now you're getting it! Got it in one!
118. nwienert ◴[] No.44547704{9}[source]
The only way you’d know is by tuning into him, right? So do you listen to him often?
replies(1): >>44564587 #
119. int_19h ◴[] No.44548473{3}[source]
> What do you mean by "edgy opinions"?

His take on the Khmer Rouge back in the day was rather edgy (and ultimately spectacularly wrong).

120. ◴[] No.44553947{9}[source]
121. tehjoker ◴[] No.44555753{8}[source]
This is the article that helped me become more informed about him. It is actually very difficult to find derogatory material about him, you have to know what to look for.

"Capitalism’s Court Jester: Slavoj Žižek" (2023)

https://www.counterpunch.org/2023/01/02/capitalisms-court-je...

"Slavoj Žižek: From pseudo-left to new right" (2016)

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/02/08/zize-f08.html

replies(1): >>44555918 #
122. aspenmayer ◴[] No.44555918{9}[source]
Thanks for putting in the work to respond with some sources. I will make the effort to read these closely.

I think I have read the Counterpunch article, as I recognize the headline.

I wonder if Zizek is playing a longer game, since he’s seen a lot more than I have and probably has a longer view. Zizek is trying to smuggle left wing ideas into the public consciousness most of the time. He says weird shit and makes politically incorrect jokes because that works in a marketing sense. Academics are generally reserved and eschew obscenities, so when they zig, he zags. If you can’t get people to stop and listen longer than the original sound bite from him, you probably won’t fully understand or appreciate him or his views, but you will remember that he’s a leftist who doesn’t speak for leftists or even necessarily to leftists. He’s not trying to preach to the choir, because he writes actual theory for those folks. He’s trying to engage with people where they are if you aren’t already on the left, which means he has to appeal to centrists and right wing folks. That audience won’t respond to a message that they can’t understand because they dismiss it out of hand. Being an Eastern European, Zizek is already swimming against the tide, as people aren’t likely to trust a self-proclaimed Marxist communist from a former Soviet satellite state when he tells you of the virtues of left wing ideology.

I think the other part is that Zizek is less of a purist than most liberals and leftists I know. Zizek will admit that some ideas from the right or capitalism are just the status quo because they’re the current best solution or outcome, and by admitting when others already arrived at a workable solution, he doesn’t dismiss it because of whose idea it is, as both the right and the left has a huge “not invented here” problem.

Perhaps Zizek is fine being seen as a turncoat because the people saying that are purity testers on the left who don’t actually organize or perform any leftist theory or practical work. These people suck because they are idealists about things and use that as a cudgel against those with common cause who are actually doing the practical work of community organizing, or whatever. People in the center or on the right don’t really need to reach to find something they will disagree with, so by focusing on him, they let themselves off the hook of having to respond to his actual points of argument, and when they choose to make purity test attacks, it comes off as a bit ironic, as neoliberalism is the ideology of both parties historically, and the right is just doing whatever comes after neoliberalism better than the left, so by focusing on Zizek, the right is signaling that they don’t really have an argument on the merits, so they will even claim Zizek is a rightist. If you can’t beat them, lie about them fighting for your side so you don’t have to join them, because that would be reactionary and would prompt reflection and ego-deflation.

Money talks, bullshit walks. Zizek seems to do both and has a supermodel wife. I’m willing to believe he’s not a fraud about being a leftist, because the left never fully accepted him and probably never will. He is a political realist to my view, because he understands power and systems of control, and he doesn’t seek to center himself. People like him because of him, not because they necessarily even agree with him. That’s why I respect him, because even when I disagree, I get the sense that if I personally had a better argument, I could get in touch with him and he would actually respond in good faith. I can’t think of many other folks on the right or the left who would be willing to do that in good faith to the same degree who do what Zizek does.

replies(1): >>44556001 #
123. tehjoker ◴[] No.44556001{10}[source]
I think if you read the article closely, there was a point in the 1990s when Zizek had access to actual political influence. During that period, he was an anti-communist and called for NATO bombing of his country. His stripes revealed.
replies(1): >>44556102 #
124. aspenmayer ◴[] No.44556102{11}[source]
That’s a great point, thanks for drawing attention to it.

https://old.reddit.com/r/zizek/comments/12ythaq/where_does_z...

Especially the YouTube link where Zizek speaks to this point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XSe69vAqns

Zizek is a pragmatist in his leftism. If pulling the lever results in future where people can have a role in their government, it sucks that we find ourselves in a trolley problem, but that’s reality. Most leftists don’t even have a seat at the table or the ear of one who does, so I don’t find him responsible for having a leftist agenda when advising folks with the willingness and capacity to pull the lever. Even the ones pulling the lever didn’t themselves drop the bombs. The diffusion of responsibility absolves the soldier who sees no moral quandary, but not the philosopher who does? If anything, Zizek is honest about his reasoning, and focusing on outcomes. You can blame him for arguing for any outcome that resulted in violence or loss of life or limb, and I think he wouldn’t reject that being laid at his feet. However, he wasn’t the one slouching towards Bethlehem. He’s perhaps complicit like Lando Calrissian was, but Lando fought for the rebels all the same.

125. InsideOutSanta ◴[] No.44562560{5}[source]
You're just using a different definition of "opinion", one that is too reductive to be useful in this case. If an LLM outputs a text stream that expresses an opinion, then it has an opinion, regardless of whether it is conscious.
126. InsideOutSanta ◴[] No.44562580{5}[source]
Biases result in opinions.
127. Eggpants ◴[] No.44564587{10}[source]
Wow. A Tucker simp on hacker news, didn’t have that on my bingo card.
replies(1): >>44566640 #
128. nwienert ◴[] No.44566640{11}[source]
I don’t like him, only argued he’s relatively consistent.

Funny how people can’t help but think you support someone just because you’d prefer they argue from facts.