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724 points simonw | 26 comments | | HN request time: 0.295s | source | bottom
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marcusb ◴[] No.44527530[source]
This reminds me in a way of the old Noam Chomsky/Tucker Carlson exchange where Chomsky says to Carlson:

  "I’m sure you believe everything you’re saying. But what I’m saying is that if you believed something different, you wouldn’t be sitting where you’re sitting."
Simon may well be right - xAI might not have directly instructed Grok to check what the boss thinks before responding - but that's not to say xAI wouldn't be more likely to release a model that does agree with the boss a lot and privileges what he has said when reasoning.
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breppp ◴[] No.44528766[source]
and neither would Chomsky be interviewed by the BBC for his linguistic theory, if he hadn't held these edgy opinions
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1. mattmanser ◴[] No.44528838[source]
The BBC will have multiple people with differing view points on however.

So while you're factually correct, you lie by omission.

Their attempts at presently a balanced view is almost to the point of absurdity these days as they were accused so often, and usually quite falsely, of bias.

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2. breppp ◴[] No.44528873[source]
I said BBC because as the other poster added, this was a BBC reporter rather than Carlson

Chomsky's entire argument is, that the reporter opinions are meaningless as he is part of some imaginary establishment and therefore he had to think that way.

That game goes both ways, Chomsky's opinions are only being given TV time as they are unusual.

I would venture more and say the only reason Chomsky holds these opinions is because of the academics preference for original thought rather than mainstream thought. As any repeat of an existing theory is worthless.

The problem is that in the social sciences that are not grounded in experiments, too much ungrounded original thought leads to academic conspiracy theories

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3. tehjoker ◴[] No.44528897[source]
How often does the BBC have a communist on? Almost never?
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4. youngNed ◴[] No.44529000[source]
I'm genuinely struggling to think of many people in modern politics who identify as communists who would qualify for this, but certainly Ash 'literally a communist' Sarkar is a fairly regular guest on various shows: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m002dlj3
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5. ◴[] No.44529160[source]
6. suddenlybananas ◴[] No.44529283[source]
Imaginary establishment? Do you think power doesn't exist?
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7. aspenmayer ◴[] No.44529379{3}[source]
Zizek would probably qualify? I think he self-identifies as a communist but I'm not sure he means it completely seriously. Here he is on Newsnight about a month ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx_J1MgokV4

Then agaain, he's not a politician himself.

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8. youngNed ◴[] No.44529486{4}[source]
Alexi Sayle has had numerous shows on the BBC.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000wrsn

9. breppp ◴[] No.44530070{3}[source]
power does exist, however foucault's theory of power as a metaphysical force pervading everyone's actions and thought is a conspiracy theory
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10. suddenlybananas ◴[] No.44531249{4}[source]
Chomsky was not a foucauldian at all and his criticisms are super far from foucault's ideas. You can watch the very famous debate they had to see how they differ.
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11. mejutoco ◴[] No.44531648{4}[source]
And yet even in this old forum, depending on what I write in the comment, I can be praised, shadowbanned or downvoted.
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12. breppp ◴[] No.44531994{5}[source]
I read your reply to be alluding to the foucault concept of power, as it was in the context of power systems "censoring" ideas

furthermore, in this specific quote they do not differ a lot. maybe mainstream opinion is mainstream because it is more correct, moral or more beneficial to society?

he does not try to negate such statements, he just tries to prove mainstream opinion is wrong due to being mainstream (or the result of mainstream "power")

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13. gadders ◴[] No.44532360[source]
>>The BBC will have multiple people with differing view points on however.

Not for climate change, as that debate is "settled". Where they do need to pretend to show balance they will pick the most reasonable talking head for their preferred position, and the most unhinged or extreme for the contra-position.

>> they were accused so often, and usually quite falsely, of bias.

Yes, really hard to determine the BBC house position on Brexit, mass immigration, the Iraq War, Israel/Palestine, Trump etc

14. breppp ◴[] No.44532442{7}[source]
> Are you six years old? Approval of slavery or torture used to be mainstream opinions

And also disapproval of cannibalism is a mainstream opinion, that doesn't change the fact that popularity of an opinion does not make it wrong or immoral just like it doesn't make it right or moral

> You have deeply misunderstood his criticisms

So please explain how am I mistaken in your opinion

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15. suddenlybananas ◴[] No.44532558{8}[source]
>that popularity of an opinion does not make it wrong or immoral just like it doesn't make it right or moral

I know. You were the one who suggested the converse.

>So please explain how am I mistaken in your opinion

The argument is not that mainstream ideas are necessarily false, that would be an idiotic position. The idea is just that the media has incentives to go along with what powerful people want them to say because there are real material benefits from going along. In fact, the whole point of the model is that it doesn't require a concerted conspiracy, it falls out naturally from the incentive structures of modern society.

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16. breppp ◴[] No.44532795{9}[source]
> I know. You were the one who suggested the converse.

No, you misread. I said if Chomsky wants to tackle mainstream ideas he needs to show why they are wrong. not just say they are popular and are therefore wrong because they were shoved down by the ether of "power"

> The idea is just that the media has incentives to go along with what powerful people want them to say because there are real material benefits from going along

Yes I understood, and that's why I said the same can be said about Chosmky, who has material benefits in academia to hold opinions which are new, are politically aligned with the academic mainstream and are in a field where the burden of proof is not high (although LLMs have something to say about Chomsky's original field). This is a poor argument to make about Chomsky as just like Chomsky's argument it does not tackle an idea, just the one who is making it

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17. Der_Einzige ◴[] No.44533133{5}[source]
Chomsky is closer to Foucault than he will ever admit. Even critiquing critical theory/pomo shit from a position of "well you're relevent enough to talk to me, a god at CS" makes them seem like they are legit.

All the pomo/critical theory shit needs to be left in the dust bin of history and forgotten about. Don't engage with it. Don't say fo*calt's name (especially cus he's likely a pedo)

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2021/4/16/reckoning-with-...

Try to pretend like you've never heard the word "Zizek" before. Let them die now please.

18. Der_Einzige ◴[] No.44533155{5}[source]
Dang being an ass and the moderation on HN being bad doesn't mean that suddenly the disappearance of leprosy from europe was a socially constructed thing. Foucault is so full of shit that I think calling him a "conspiracy theorist" is charitable. He's a full on anti-scientific charlatan.

Biopolitics/biopower is a conspiracy theory. Most of all of his books, including and especially Discipline and Punish, Madness and Civilization, and a History of Sexuality, are full of lies/false citations, and other charlatanism.

A whole lot of others are also full of Shit. Lacan is the most full of shit of all, but even the likes of Marshal Mcluhan are full of shit. Entire fields like "Semiotics" are also full of shit.

19. suddenlybananas ◴[] No.44533195{10}[source]
>I said if Chomsky wants to tackle mainstream ideas he needs to show why they are wrong. not just say they are popular and are therefore wrong

That is not the argument he is making.

>This is a poor argument to make about Chomsky as just like Chomsky's argument it does not tackle an idea, just the one who is making it

Because it is not meant to tackle a specific claim but rather the media environment in general. I'm astounded at how much faith you have in the media.

Chomsky is making the proposition "often the media misreports or doesn't report on important things" which is far from claiming "everything mainstream is false because it is mainstream".

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20. breppp ◴[] No.44533626{11}[source]
> Chomsky is making the proposition "often the media misreports or doesn't report on important things" which is far from claiming "everything mainstream is false because it is mainstream

I feel like we are going in loops, so I am not going to reply anymore. so last time:

He said that the only reason that the reporter is sitting there is because he thinks in a specific way, and that's pretty much a quote. That hints that the reporter opinions are tainted and are therefore false or influenced by outside factors, or at least that's what I gather. What I am saying is if that idea is true, it applies to Chomsky as well which is not there for being a linguist and whatever self selection of right or wrong opinions is happening in the media can also be said for the academics

21. tehjoker ◴[] No.44536295{4}[source]
Zizek in my view betrayed the movement in his home country. That's why the press loves him so much.

He also talks a lot without being that insightful in my opinion.

Sarkar could be good, but that famous quote from her is the only thing I know about her politics.

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22. aspenmayer ◴[] No.44538089{5}[source]
> Zizek in my view betrayed the movement in his home country.

I don’t know what you mean by this, but I know he’s been around a while before he became known in the US. Could you explain a bit more for me or give me a link to something he said or did that caused you to change how you felt about him? I feel like I’m missing the proper context to appreciate your points, and if I did know what you do, I might feel as you do.

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23. tehjoker ◴[] No.44555753{6}[source]
This is the article that helped me become more informed about him. It is actually very difficult to find derogatory material about him, you have to know what to look for.

"Capitalism’s Court Jester: Slavoj Žižek" (2023)

https://www.counterpunch.org/2023/01/02/capitalisms-court-je...

"Slavoj Žižek: From pseudo-left to new right" (2016)

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2016/02/08/zize-f08.html

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24. aspenmayer ◴[] No.44555918{7}[source]
Thanks for putting in the work to respond with some sources. I will make the effort to read these closely.

I think I have read the Counterpunch article, as I recognize the headline.

I wonder if Zizek is playing a longer game, since he’s seen a lot more than I have and probably has a longer view. Zizek is trying to smuggle left wing ideas into the public consciousness most of the time. He says weird shit and makes politically incorrect jokes because that works in a marketing sense. Academics are generally reserved and eschew obscenities, so when they zig, he zags. If you can’t get people to stop and listen longer than the original sound bite from him, you probably won’t fully understand or appreciate him or his views, but you will remember that he’s a leftist who doesn’t speak for leftists or even necessarily to leftists. He’s not trying to preach to the choir, because he writes actual theory for those folks. He’s trying to engage with people where they are if you aren’t already on the left, which means he has to appeal to centrists and right wing folks. That audience won’t respond to a message that they can’t understand because they dismiss it out of hand. Being an Eastern European, Zizek is already swimming against the tide, as people aren’t likely to trust a self-proclaimed Marxist communist from a former Soviet satellite state when he tells you of the virtues of left wing ideology.

I think the other part is that Zizek is less of a purist than most liberals and leftists I know. Zizek will admit that some ideas from the right or capitalism are just the status quo because they’re the current best solution or outcome, and by admitting when others already arrived at a workable solution, he doesn’t dismiss it because of whose idea it is, as both the right and the left has a huge “not invented here” problem.

Perhaps Zizek is fine being seen as a turncoat because the people saying that are purity testers on the left who don’t actually organize or perform any leftist theory or practical work. These people suck because they are idealists about things and use that as a cudgel against those with common cause who are actually doing the practical work of community organizing, or whatever. People in the center or on the right don’t really need to reach to find something they will disagree with, so by focusing on him, they let themselves off the hook of having to respond to his actual points of argument, and when they choose to make purity test attacks, it comes off as a bit ironic, as neoliberalism is the ideology of both parties historically, and the right is just doing whatever comes after neoliberalism better than the left, so by focusing on Zizek, the right is signaling that they don’t really have an argument on the merits, so they will even claim Zizek is a rightist. If you can’t beat them, lie about them fighting for your side so you don’t have to join them, because that would be reactionary and would prompt reflection and ego-deflation.

Money talks, bullshit walks. Zizek seems to do both and has a supermodel wife. I’m willing to believe he’s not a fraud about being a leftist, because the left never fully accepted him and probably never will. He is a political realist to my view, because he understands power and systems of control, and he doesn’t seek to center himself. People like him because of him, not because they necessarily even agree with him. That’s why I respect him, because even when I disagree, I get the sense that if I personally had a better argument, I could get in touch with him and he would actually respond in good faith. I can’t think of many other folks on the right or the left who would be willing to do that in good faith to the same degree who do what Zizek does.

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25. tehjoker ◴[] No.44556001{8}[source]
I think if you read the article closely, there was a point in the 1990s when Zizek had access to actual political influence. During that period, he was an anti-communist and called for NATO bombing of his country. His stripes revealed.
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26. aspenmayer ◴[] No.44556102{9}[source]
That’s a great point, thanks for drawing attention to it.

https://old.reddit.com/r/zizek/comments/12ythaq/where_does_z...

Especially the YouTube link where Zizek speaks to this point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XSe69vAqns

Zizek is a pragmatist in his leftism. If pulling the lever results in future where people can have a role in their government, it sucks that we find ourselves in a trolley problem, but that’s reality. Most leftists don’t even have a seat at the table or the ear of one who does, so I don’t find him responsible for having a leftist agenda when advising folks with the willingness and capacity to pull the lever. Even the ones pulling the lever didn’t themselves drop the bombs. The diffusion of responsibility absolves the soldier who sees no moral quandary, but not the philosopher who does? If anything, Zizek is honest about his reasoning, and focusing on outcomes. You can blame him for arguing for any outcome that resulted in violence or loss of life or limb, and I think he wouldn’t reject that being laid at his feet. However, he wasn’t the one slouching towards Bethlehem. He’s perhaps complicit like Lando Calrissian was, but Lando fought for the rebels all the same.