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1210 points jbegley | 90 comments | | HN request time: 1.871s | source | bottom
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aucisson_masque ◴[] No.43656830[source]
I like to think we are in a better place than russia for instance with all its propaganda and jailed journalists, but then i see these kind of article come over and over....

Most of the people in the 'free world' goes on mainstream media, like facebook to get their news. These companies are enticed to 'suck up' to the government because at the end they are business, they need to be in good term with ruling class.

you end up with most media complying with the official story pushed by government and friends, and most people believing that because no one has the time to fact check everything.

One could argue that the difference with russia is that someone can actually look for real information, but even in russia people have access to vpn to bypass the censorship.

Another difference would be that you are allowed to express your opinion, whereas in russia you would be put to jail, that's true but only in a very limited way. Since everyone goes on mainstream media and they enforce the government narrative, you can't speak there. you are merely allowed to speak out in your little corner out of reach to anyone, and even then since most people believe the government propaganda, your arguments won't be heard at all.

The more i think about it, the less difference i see.

replies(28): >>43656906 #>>43656916 #>>43656934 #>>43656946 #>>43656968 #>>43656989 #>>43657304 #>>43657562 #>>43657645 #>>43658191 #>>43658886 #>>43659133 #>>43660757 #>>43661511 #>>43661686 #>>43662234 #>>43662676 #>>43663016 #>>43663274 #>>43663600 #>>43665341 #>>43667845 #>>43669651 #>>43672708 #>>43675307 #>>43680694 #>>43701378 #>>43726510 #
1. Braxton1980 ◴[] No.43660757[source]
>Another difference would be that you are allowed to express your opinion, whereas in russia you would be put to jail, that's true but only in a very limited way.

Although not even close in number and punishment the US government is deporting people for speaking against Israel.

I think we do have a much better system because we are aware of these cases, you can speak out about the issue, and our court system can rule against the current admin.

What makes this possible to either the level of Russia or the US is how much the supporters of the regime want it. This is regardless of morality, legality, or the precedent it sets.

replies(7): >>43660850 #>>43661305 #>>43661518 #>>43661534 #>>43662791 #>>43666004 #>>43669480 #
2. whatshisface ◴[] No.43660850[source]
You only feel safe to speak out against the violations of law if you feel safe from them.
replies(2): >>43661531 #>>43666687 #
3. viraptor ◴[] No.43661305[source]
> and our court system can rule against the current admin.

That is more and more often not happening recently, because courts are not involved. If they are and explicitly request planes to be turned around and people brought back - they're ignored without repercussions.

replies(1): >>43665438 #
4. cscurmudgeon ◴[] No.43661518[source]
If you are talking about Khalil, he didn't just speak against Israel, it seems like his role in an org which openly supported Hamas may have played a part but didn't matter legally. The legal issue was that he left out facts on his green card application.

I am 100% sure that support of terrorist orgs can invalidate your green card.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/trump-administration-claims-palest...

> According to recent court filings, President Donald Trump's administration said Khalil failed to disclose when applying for his green card last year that his employment by the Syria Office at the British Embassy in Beirut went "beyond 2022" and that he was a "political affairs officer" for the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees from June to November 2023.

> "Regardless of his allegations concerning political speech, Khalil withheld membership in certain organizations and failed to disclose continuing employment by the Syria Office in the British Embassy in Beirut when he submitted his adjustment of status application. It is black-letter law that misrepresentations in this context are not protected speech," the government said in the filing.

Most of these things are not black/white. We should wait for all the facts to come out.

replies(4): >>43663735 #>>43667918 #>>43671035 #>>43692449 #
5. ebcode ◴[] No.43661531[source]
No. I speak out, and I don't feel safe. It takes courage.
replies(1): >>43669443 #
6. kurthr ◴[] No.43661534[source]
Exactly, it's the "they're the same anyway", "both sides" equivalency that allows the buildup of antidemocratic de-politicization and apathy. This is one of the goals of the _there_is_no_truth_ radicalization that is fundamental to Russian political control
replies(3): >>43661867 #>>43662333 #>>43664813 #
7. raverbashing ◴[] No.43661867[source]
This exactly right here ^

But discussions on the internet seems to be with lots of people who have only a shallow understanding of the balances involved and low historical context

replies(1): >>43669727 #
8. Retric ◴[] No.43662333[source]
Ehh, I’ve got not particular stake in this conflict so it’s really interesting to see how each side is using propaganda and how obvious the propaganda is when you’re not emotionally invested.

Each side is using different tactics to fit the strength of their positions and how well various messages resonate. “They are the same anyway” is useful for a side who wants people to be inactive, it’s not some universal benefit to both parties. Instead each side wants different people to be engaged vs apathetic, which hardly unusual.

replies(2): >>43662937 #>>43669869 #
9. mlindner ◴[] No.43662791[source]
> Although not even close in number and punishment the US government is deporting people for speaking against Israel.

You and I both know that isn't true and repeating that doesn't help anyone but further implant in people's minds that the other side is completely irrational and cannot be reasoned with.

No, the US government is deporting people for supporting terrorist organizations, something that's always been a disqualifying position in US immigration law. You'll get your visa denied, or even your entry denied for holding such positions, let alone maintaining an active student visa or permanent resident visa. That has always been the case and simply enforcing laws already on the books does not change that.

> What makes this possible to either the level of Russia or the US is how much the supporters of the regime want it. This is regardless of morality, legality, or the precedent it sets.

Equating Russia and the US is an extreme take.

replies(4): >>43663840 #>>43665169 #>>43667947 #>>43677637 #
10. baq ◴[] No.43662937{3}[source]
Both sides want their side engaged and the other apathetic. On a national level this means FSB employing hundreds if not thousands of people to troll political discourse in social media in the west to maximize the amount of ‘I don’t care anymore’ people. A very asymmetric setup exposing the underbelly of free speech cultures.
replies(3): >>43662980 #>>43663734 #>>43669303 #
11. logicchains ◴[] No.43662980{4}[source]
>A very asymmetric setup exposing the underbelly of free speech cultures

As opposed to non-free-speech cultures like Russia and China where people have absolutely no say in whatever their leaders do? Because that's inevitably what happens when you give people in power the power to restrict speech: they restrict any speech critical of them. We're even seeing this in developed democracies like Germany where a journalist was recently fined for posting a meme online of a politician holding a sign saying "I hate free speech".

replies(2): >>43663255 #>>43664281 #
12. baq ◴[] No.43663255{5}[source]
Whataboutism does not change anything about it being a weak spot. I’m only saying the free speech west can’t use the same tactic against these kind of adversaries because they’re insulated against them.
replies(1): >>43663863 #
13. ◴[] No.43663734{4}[source]
14. Retric ◴[] No.43663863{6}[source]
Free speech including paid speech isn’t really a knock on free speech.

Someone can be persuaded by an argument they heard once, but can’t per persuaded by an argument they never hear. Thus blocking speech by preventing any kind of speech including paid speech is problematic.

replies(1): >>43667176 #
15. netrus ◴[] No.43664281{5}[source]
It's important to be precise because everything is not the same. In the German case the ruling was not because someone posted a critical meme, but because it was not entirely obvious the picture was edited (as in: you and I can immediately see the photo was edited, but some people will not recognize the edit). I do not agree with the ruling, but as a citizen I am happy that in Germany we still care if claims are true or not (and try to prevent people from lying).
replies(2): >>43666037 #>>43666362 #
16. ◴[] No.43664813[source]
17. karpatic ◴[] No.43664902{3}[source]
A judge gave the green light on deportationn just yesterday.
replies(1): >>43664950 #
18. ◴[] No.43664936{3}[source]
19. ceejayoz ◴[] No.43664950{4}[source]
Immigration judges are "administrative judges" and work for the executive (i.e. Trump), not an independent branch.

It'll be appealed to a Federal court now.

replies(1): >>43665151 #
20. karpatic ◴[] No.43665151{5}[source]
Mhmm! Thanks for adding context.
21. bjourne ◴[] No.43665169[source]
> No, the US government is deporting people for supporting terrorist organizations,

Has it deported anyone voicing support for the Israeli Defense Forces or any of the other Jewish supremacist terrorist organizations currently terrorizing Palestinians? Regardless, your claim that Khalil would have offered material support or even voiced support for a terrorist organization is baseless. Not that it matters either because saying "I love Hamas" is free speech and covered under the First Amendment.

replies(1): >>43725751 #
22. marcosdumay ◴[] No.43665438[source]
> without repercussions

This part is not settled yet.

replies(1): >>43669715 #
23. ◴[] No.43665502{3}[source]
24. charlescearl ◴[] No.43666004[source]
The united states has the world’s largest incarcerated population. It currently dwarfs the number incarcerated by the Soviet Union during the 1930s. The USA has the fifth highest incarceration rate on the planet. In the Southeast United States, the incarceration rate of the Black population is 7% (as a point of comparison 2x the incarceration rate of minoritized Uyghur population of China per the World Uyghur Congress figures)
replies(2): >>43667329 #>>43667882 #
25. Whoppertime ◴[] No.43666037{6}[source]
Isn't that just relying on the stupidity of someone who may not exist? Like every single year people make the same dumb joke "Republicans vote on Tuesday and Democrats vote on Wednesday" leading to prosecution for misinformation when they cannot prove anyone actually tried voting on the wrong day because of the meme
replies(2): >>43666760 #>>43669732 #
26. immibis ◴[] No.43666362{6}[source]
Does this happiness that some people care whether claims are true or not overrule the arrest and deportation of peaceful protestors, and people in general based on social media posts, or do you also feel happy about that?
27. immibis ◴[] No.43666386{3}[source]
> Opposing the support for another foreign nation's genocide is not a support of terrorism?

It is in Germany and also in the USA. It doesn't matter whether you agree with the government on this point or not, because the government are the ones with the legal right to lock you up.

replies(1): >>43670020 #
28. 20after4 ◴[] No.43666687[source]
It stopped being safe in the USA for anyone not currently popular with the administration. And anyone’s safe status can change on a whim.
29. Retric ◴[] No.43666760{7}[source]
Once you start talking millions of people someone will make that or any other mistake.

The US has a higher threshold, but it’s clear those standards mean many people are duped by “obvious” lies. It’s kind of an arbitrary line, but ignoring the dumb feels like a mistake to me when dumb people are active in society, still vote, etc.

30. baq ◴[] No.43667176{7}[source]
I’m saying ‘free speech is an obvious weakness’, not ‘we should disallow free speech’. Very different things.
replies(1): >>43667765 #
31. Aloisius ◴[] No.43667329[source]
> It currently dwarfs the number incarcerated by the Soviet Union during the 1930s.

Not really. Estimates for the number of people in labor camps, labor colonies and prisons are all over the place, but based on their own fragmented records reached about 2 million by the end of 1938. That doesn't count pretrial/administrative detentions or the hundreds of thousands that were simply executed that year or all the people exiled to inhospitable settlements. And of course, the mortality rate in their penal system was extremely high.

> In the Southeast United States, incarceration rate of the Black population is 7%

Nowhere in the US is there anywhere close to incarcerating 7% of the black population.

That said, the US incarceration rate is ridiculously high and we should be ashamed of it.

32. Retric ◴[] No.43667765{8}[source]
Having outside actors in the conversation is a strength.
replies(2): >>43668817 #>>43672970 #
33. wqaatwt ◴[] No.43667882[source]
> It currently dwarfs the number incarcerated by the Soviet Union during the 1930s

That was certainly false if you look at the late 40s (not by much, only 2x or so though..)

However if you actually think (since you post nonsensical “statistics” that’s unlikely) about it the mortality rates in soviet concentration camps were massive, especially in the 1930s or during the war which significantly decreased the incarceration rate.

Can’t have a huge prison population if you just murder or starve everyone to death..

34. wqaatwt ◴[] No.43667918[source]
> We should wait for all the facts to come out.

Like indefinitely? Trump’s administration is ignoring the courts and there is no real oversight. Also whatever facts come out they will be drowned by all the other insane idiocy that the US government is doing so nobody will pay attention anyway..

When they start sending US citizens to El Salvador nobody is going to care about some guy whose green card got revoked.

35. wqaatwt ◴[] No.43667934{4}[source]
> Do you condemn Hamas

What’s the alternative? Regardless of what Israel did or did not do Hamas could have ended this “war” at any moment they wanted to. None of their actions were in any way remotely in the interest of the people of Gaza. Providing them [Hamas] material or other support only prolonged it..

replies(3): >>43668143 #>>43668693 #>>43671041 #
36. wqaatwt ◴[] No.43667947[source]
> Equating Russia and the US is an extreme take.

Perhaps currently. How long do you think we should wait until we can start doing that? At the current pace probably a year or two?

I mean.. Putin wasn’t that bad in the early 2000s, nazis or fascists weren’t that awful in the 20s or 30s either (in relative terms compared to everyone else at the time) either. Waiting until its too late do change anything is maybe not the smartest thing, though..

replies(1): >>43725754 #
37. tehjoker ◴[] No.43668143{5}[source]
The alternative is obvious: a single democratic state and the end of ethnosupremacy.
replies(1): >>43670761 #
38. immibis ◴[] No.43668693{5}[source]
This is proven false by the existence of the West Bank, where is there no Hamas and there's still a war. Who is fighting the war there?

In case you're commenting in good faith and genuinely don't know this, "Do you condemn Hamas?" refers to a pattern in media interviews from the earlier days of the holocaust. The interviewer would simply ignore what the interviewee said and repeat "Do you condemn Hamas?" until the interviewee answered with a boolean, at which point the interview was over. No discussion was allowed. You either support everything Israel is doing (boolean true answer) or you are a terrorist (boolean false answer). No nuance allowed. No debate allowed. No facts allowed.

replies(1): >>43670741 #
39. monetus ◴[] No.43668817{9}[source]
The contention is that they in particular aren't good faith actors unlike other outside actors, iiuc.
replies(1): >>43668897 #
40. Retric ◴[] No.43668897{10}[source]
Bad faith actors are also beneficial.

Kids who grow up watching commercials start distrusting them. Free speech is not about any one issue but all topics. In many ways curating so people see the kinds of things they agree with is vastly more harmful than propaganda.

replies(2): >>43669741 #>>43670447 #
41. Braxton1980 ◴[] No.43669303{4}[source]
So. Maybe my experience but why are these bots and trolls always pushing messages that help the Republicans.
42. djohnston ◴[] No.43669443{3}[source]
Your bravery is inspiring.
43. grafmax ◴[] No.43669480[source]
In the US the upper class rules by soft power that gives people the illusion of choice while actually they hold all the power.

I agree it’s better that we don’t yet see individuals directly punished at scale for dissent.

But if this is all we settle for we’re like dogs fighting for scraps.

replies(1): >>43679512 #
44. Braxton1980 ◴[] No.43669715{3}[source]
How so? The plane didn't turn around, Trump still has numerous supporters so the public doesn't care, and none of his admin has been punished.
replies(1): >>43669765 #
45. Braxton1980 ◴[] No.43669727{3}[source]
Historical context has limited value. It doesn't matter what a political party did more than 10 years ago.

Shallow understanding is a valid issue but that's what discussions are for

replies(1): >>43670441 #
46. Braxton1980 ◴[] No.43669732{7}[source]
Misinformation isnt
47. Braxton1980 ◴[] No.43669741{11}[source]
What happens when people are tol 1. Don't trust the media 2. Don't trust the opposition 3. Don't trust the experts

Doesn't this lead to a situation where only bad actors exist?

It people are so savy because of advertising why did tens of millions believe the election was stolen?

replies(1): >>43669906 #
48. marcosdumay ◴[] No.43669765{4}[source]
Last time I saw, the entire Supreme Court was requesting that the Executive return people, what means punishment may be a couple of weeks away. It may not happen, but it's not a given right now.
replies(4): >>43669865 #>>43669995 #>>43681759 #>>43685110 #
49. Braxton1980 ◴[] No.43669865{5}[source]
They requesting the government return oe person and they still haven't brought him back. It's not related to the plane that was supposed to turn around
50. Braxton1980 ◴[] No.43669869{3}[source]
Are both sides doing all these things in equal amounts?
replies(1): >>43669899 #
51. Retric ◴[] No.43669899{4}[source]
No, they don’t have the same strengths but the net effect is similar.
replies(1): >>43671029 #
52. Retric ◴[] No.43669906{12}[source]
> What happens when people are…

Everyone doesn’t fit those criteria. Motivated reasoning exists with and without propaganda. The specific words used may end up mimicking “a message,” but you can find millions of disgruntled people after any election.

There’s a great deal of talk around how much social media etc changed the landscape but American politics looks basically the same before and after Facebook.

replies(1): >>43671653 #
53. ImPostingOnHN ◴[] No.43669995{5}[source]
who would execute the punishment for disobeying the supreme court?
54. ImPostingOnHN ◴[] No.43670020{4}[source]
it isn't, but the government in one of those countries has demonstrated a desire and willingness to arrest people on arbitrary pretexts and make them suffer while they try to free themselves from a kafkaesque nightmare regardless of what is true or legal

please don't falsely conflate opposition to the ongoing genocide of palestinians, with support for hamas

55. goatlover ◴[] No.43670441{4}[source]
It matters if the political party's tactics for taking over a democracy are being copied.
56. goatlover ◴[] No.43670447{11}[source]
I no longer believe this, seeing how democracy is under threat around the world from such abuses of free speech.
replies(1): >>43671043 #
57. wqaatwt ◴[] No.43670741{6}[source]
There is a lot whole lot of violence in the West Bank, no carpet bombing or tens of thousands of casualties, though. That makes it extremely different.
58. wqaatwt ◴[] No.43670761{6}[source]
That’s not sustainable. Best outcome would be ending up like Lebanon.

Besides Belgium (and that’s nowhere close) there are hardly any successful democracies that were evenly split primarily on ethno-religious grounds and didn’t entirely collapse on the first opportunity.

replies(1): >>43674632 #
59. Braxton1980 ◴[] No.43671029{5}[source]
How can the net effect be similar if the actions aren't?
replies(1): >>43671720 #
60. Braxton1980 ◴[] No.43671035[source]
>We should wait for all the facts to come out.

Oh? Before they deport him? If the courts didn't intervene, initiated from his side, he would be gone

61. Braxton1980 ◴[] No.43671041{5}[source]
>Providing them [Hamas] material or other support only prolonged it..

How?

62. ghssds ◴[] No.43671043{12}[source]
Free speech is an essential component of democracy.
replies(1): >>43671671 #
63. Braxton1980 ◴[] No.43671653{13}[source]
>American politics looks basically the same before and after Facebook.

Trump and MAGA Republicans lie more openly than traditional Republicans. American politics are not the same.

Here's an easy exercise.

This is a post from MGT. Show me anything even close to this insane from an elected person in high office (house, senate, president) in the last 50 years

https://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/styles/scale_w1024/s3/st...

replies(1): >>43671771 #
64. Braxton1980 ◴[] No.43671671{13}[source]
1.The majority of people are not intelligent. Source is polls on whether there was wide spread election fraud

2. Politicans want money and power. They have no issues lying or manipulating people to get it

3. In a country like Russia the government can counter any information with widespread arrests and fear.

4. In a country with free speech there is little to no recourse.

Meaning that Russia, China, etc can use misinformation against us and we can't do anything. On the other hand we can try the same but they can simply use authoritarian tactics to supress it.

5. Trump has shown that the threshold for lying was set artificially low by past politicians. His success while lying about events that are easily disproven multiple times is evidence for all future politicians to lie.

replies(1): >>43671851 #
65. Retric ◴[] No.43671720{6}[source]
Their goals are similar. There’s lots of different ways of achieving similar ends. I’ve seen a lot more paid commercials from Israel side, but a lot more posts using Palestine’s side talking points.

Same way you can build a wood or brick home, historically which people chose had a lot to do with local materials.

replies(1): >>43676995 #
66. Retric ◴[] No.43671771{14}[source]
That’s fairly mild, but it’s not so easy to link to 20+ year old clips. There’s some real bangers of homophobic rants in your time frame, but you may be a little young to remember any of them.

In terms of lies here’s one that was a central tenant of the part of the party line for decades. Social security isn’t an income tax because we have a tax called the income tax.

replies(2): >>43677004 #>>43679500 #
67. Retric ◴[] No.43671851{14}[source]
“The number of people overall who believe the election was fraudulent has hovered around 35% since November 2020, but this percentage has not increased significantly as the claim purports.” https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/feb/02/viral-imag...

Which is different than asking if voting fraud changed the outcome and more importantly different than asking which side benefited. Someone who calls targeted overly aggressive culling of voter registrations fraud has something of a point, even if that’s a long way from stuffing ballots or meaningful changes in results.

replies(1): >>43679428 #
68. baq ◴[] No.43672970{9}[source]
They are noise generators with a goal of raising the noise floor above the pain threshold, in essence they’re using free speech to shut down free speech itself.
replies(1): >>43677269 #
69. tehjoker ◴[] No.43674632{7}[source]
Lebanon is the way it is because the United States and Israel continuously sabotage its government to align with their interests.
replies(1): >>43685652 #
70. Braxton1980 ◴[] No.43676995{7}[source]
>Their goals are similar.

This isn't then your previous comment that the results are similar.

Goals aren't nearly as important as results.

Also, to dive deeper, what goals and how many are similar, and how similar?

If you mean they are both supporting Israel, then yes, but the Democrats exert more control over their actions. For example Biden was limiting the bomb size that Israel could purchase and Trump removed that.

So if you want to help the Palestinians one side is the better than the other. It doesn't matter if the goals are similar or even the results. There's still a difference and as you can see voter apathy only helped Republicans

replies(1): >>43677114 #
71. Braxton1980 ◴[] No.43677004{15}[source]
Homophobia isn't lying, it's an opinion/ judgement

>Social security isn’t an income tax because we have a tax called the income tax.

SS tax is a tax on your income, "Income Tax" is a type of tax. Both are true

replies(1): >>43703685 #
72. Retric ◴[] No.43677114{8}[source]
> If you mean they are both supporting Israel

I have been talking about the propaganda from each sides of the current conflict in Palestine. I thought this make that clear “in this conflict so it’s really interesting to see how each side is using propaganda” but I may have misunderstood what you meant by supporting Israel.

> This isn't then your previous comment that the results are similar.

To be clear I’m noticing similar goals combined with something (diminishing returns?) yield similar results. Hell, it could also be a form follows function kind of thing, I’m noticing the results not doing a research paper.

> what goals

When I say they have similar goals I mean they are both trying to sway public option to support their agenda.

There’s a bunch of different kinds of kind of propaganda. If one side was doing a call to action for their supporters like “Buy war bonds!” then I presume the results wouldn’t seem so similar.

replies(1): >>43679162 #
73. Retric ◴[] No.43677269{10}[source]
I’d say the same about social media. However IMO the value of free speech isn’t in having a clear message to directly improve things, the value is being able to steal ideas from anyone. “Obamacare” was originally a Republican idea, but once an idea is out there anyone can take it.

Ideas don’t need to win on day one, if it takes 30 years that’s still plenty useful.

74. mrgoldenbrown ◴[] No.43677637[source]
Öztürk had her visa secretly revoked because she coauthored an oped suggesting her college divest from Israel. She did not write an op-ed supporting a terrorist group.
75. Braxton1980 ◴[] No.43679162{9}[source]
>When I say they have similar goals I mean they are both trying to sway public option to support their agenda.

Ok, but that's every politician (and many people as well). What their specific goal is matters. If one political party supports Israel 40% [4] and the other 80% then there's a difference. It's possible to support Israel and the Palestinians at the same time as well so it's not a clear "this or that"

>yield similar results.

If you are saying something like "Israel is still attacking Palestinians no matter who is elected" yes but to the same extent? What about aid to Palestine?

In 2018 Trump cut $200m worth of aid to them [1] then in 2021 Biden restored it [2]. I can understand if the issue is that neither party are going as far as you might want but that doesn't really make them same and not voting [3] doesn't make sense if you care because it can only make things worse for the Palestinians

Your argument reads like a general frustration with politics, which I get, but it still exists and will always exist. Not participating is the worse option imo.

[1] https://www.reuters.com/article/world/trump-cuts-more-than-2...

[2] https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20210407-us-restores...

[3] Not accusing you here

[4] Just a made a fake scale of support from 0 to 100 for the example

replies(1): >>43679673 #
76. Braxton1980 ◴[] No.43679428{15}[source]
I don't think taking all political affiliations into account makes sense. Let me use another poll that had a similar outcome of your poll for all political affiliations:

#--------------------------------------------------------

A 2023 poll found that 71% of Republicans believe the election was illegitimate. [1]. The exact question in the poll was "Thinking about the results of the 2020 presidential election, do you think that Joe Biden legitimately won enough votes to win the presidency, or not? Do you think there's been solid evidence of that, or is that your suspicion only?"

All - Note legitimate Solid + suspicious = 38%

Republican - Not legitimate: solid evidence - 41% suspicious only - 30%

1. Democrats or liberals (poll allowed for either) who didn't vote for Trump or dislike him are going to say the election was legitimate regardless of evidence and outcomes of investigations. This is why I only use what Republican voters think (about 2020) as an indicator of public stupidity *

2. This poll was in 2023, after court cases and numerous state investigations/recounts. Therefore saying it's "suspicious" is as stupid as saying there is "solid evidence".

If you have a suspicion a crime occurred, then multiple investigations find nothing or show the evidence your suspicious were based were fake, and you don't change your view that's stupid.

> Which is different than asking if voting fraud changed the outcome...

That's what Trump and many of the key players on his side claimed.

> Someone who calls targeted overly aggressive culling of voter registrations fraud has something of a point..

No, they don't. They are misusing the term "fraud" in an election situation (a.k.a "election fraud) [2]. Voter/Election fraud is clearly defined by the US government [3]. Voter suppression through a legal action isn't fraud. You can claim that it's "wrong" or "immoral" but not fraud.

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The difference is clear if you look at something as either an opinion or fact. An opinion is not falsifiable.

"Widespread election fraud is why Trump lost the 2020 election" - This either happened or it didn't. It's not an opinion/judgement. [4]

"Aggressive culling of registrations caused a candidate to win/lose" - Since culling of registrations legally happens [5] whether or not it's aggressive is a judgement because "aggressiveness" is subjective.

> even if that’s a long way

It's not on the same scale because one is a crime. I think I need more to understand why you want to merge different accusations of fraud or suppression when discussing different elections.

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[1] https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/03/politics/cnn-poll-republicans... [1 Poll Document] - https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23895856-cnn-poll-on... Page 49

[2] Wikipedia's article on Election fraud describes it better.

"Electoral fraud, sometimes referred to as election manipulation, voter fraud, or vote rigging, involves illegal interference with the process of an election, either by increasing the vote share of a favored candidate, depressing the vote share of rival candidates, or both. It differs from but often goes hand-in-hand with voter suppression. "

[3] https://www.usa.gov/voter-fraud

[4] You can say "I believe X happened" which is an opinion however this is a judgement that needs a factual base. If the evidence is fake, doesn't exist, or you were lied and you are aware of this, then you're lying about the basis for your opinion which invalidates it (imo)

[5] I'm assuming you meant legal culling

* There's similar high numbers for Democrats talking about Trump's win in 2016 though most polls ask about Russian interference helping him, which is a judgement not a lie since this did happen, but it could also be an indicator. The 2020 situation was just much more obvious because the claim by Trump is of cheating NOT influence. The lie is that Trump was directly involved and to a high degree but blah blah complicated.

replies(1): >>43679771 #
77. Braxton1980 ◴[] No.43679500{15}[source]
>but you may be a little young to remember any of them. I'm 45

> Social security isn’t an income tax because we have a tax called the income tax.

I took too long to be able to edit my other comment but I should have asked who said this? Because "social security" isn't a tax at all. In my other comment I assumed you meant tax we pay to fund SS but this still leaves me confused, can you provide me with a quote that shows the lie?

replies(1): >>43703707 #
78. Braxton1980 ◴[] No.43679512[source]
> But if this is all we settle for we’re like dogs fighting for scraps.

Who is settling for this? It's just one battle when multiple battles occur at the same time and we don't stop fighting.

Are you saying too much is being focused on this issue? I think it's something that if we don't do that then it will only get worse.

replies(1): >>43680339 #
79. Retric ◴[] No.43679673{10}[source]
> In 2018 Trump cut $200m worth of aid to them [1] then in 2021 Biden restored it [2].

I am not referring to US politicians here. This has nothing to do with republicans and democrats. I am referring to what propaganda from Israel and Palestine directly + groups paid and unpaid supporting their agenda.

> Ok, but that's every politician

Politicians don’t just talk about the same thing one may highlight poverty and another jobs etc.

Here each side (Israel, Palestine) is taking about the same topic (location, war), trying to gain sympathy by talking about bad things that happen to specific people recently, etc

> Your argument reads like a general frustration with politics

If I was equally uninterested in politics and everyone was always talking about the deficit I might feel the same way. But this really does seem unusually similar.

replies(1): >>43709627 #
80. Retric ◴[] No.43679771{16}[source]
> Therefore saying it's "suspicious" is as stupid as saying there is "solid evidence".

Hardly, I find quantum mechanics suspect without having a better option. I’m not saying there’s any kind of conspiracy or anything and sure it fits the experiments we have done. Yet, I suspect most people who actually learn the details have similar reactions it doesn’t fit our experience. Sadly the universe doesn’t care it it seems consistent to us.

There’s a deep cultural divide in the US to the point where people have trouble remembering how close support is for each party. Because politics is so regional it’s easy for each side to overestimate how popular that side is. Imagine living in a county where 80% are voting for one side and almost all roadside posters are supporting one candidate. Suddenly the other side winning just doesn’t fit everyday experience.

When either side wins a huge number of people will find it suspicious, that’s just how our heuristics and pattern matching work. A historian looking back on 2020 and 2024 isn’t going to find the election results odd because wider forces definitely favored the winning side in those elections, but people today don’t have that separation. Thinking there’s widespread and obvious fraud is different.

81. grafmax ◴[] No.43680339{3}[source]
I’d argue this is the biggest issue, because it’s ultimately about who controls the political process. Unless we can wrest that control from the hands of the wealthy, it’s hard to see how we can make lasting progress on other fronts. They run the show according to their own interests, even undermining the Constitution when it suits them.

The fact that they still hold all the power is proof that, consciously or not, enough people are still settling for scraps. You may not be, but many are, and that’s part of the problem.

82. zimpenfish ◴[] No.43681759{5}[source]
> Last time I saw, the entire Supreme Court was requesting that the Executive return people

As I understand it, they requested that USGOV "facilitate" the return which is much weaker than the "effectuate" in the original court order; ie giving USGOV wiggle room rather than compelling them to undo the harm.

83. motoxpro ◴[] No.43685110{5}[source]
Looks like it is a "No" from them and a "All good" from us. https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-meet-with-el-salvador...
84. wqaatwt ◴[] No.43685652{8}[source]
You are denying the agency of the people living there and/or are clueless about the country..

US and Israel started the Lebanese civil war and the enmity between the Christian and Muslim populations?

Well in a way.. at least the Palestinian refugees were a huge shock that shifted the scales. But the balance was very tight and the country would have blown up eventually anyway.

You can’t build a democracy when each half of the population hates the other half and considers that their ideological views and their ways of life are incompatible. Even US is learning that the hard way (again..)..

85. pbiggar ◴[] No.43692449[source]
This is part of the trick that israel is trying to pull. Suppose you support Palestine liberation from Israel's violent occupation and apartheid, as does most of the world. Well, so does Hamas, so therefore you support Hamas' goals and are evil and a terrorist.

To apply this in another context, I agree with Trump on very little, but I do agree that Daylight Savings should be gotten rid of. So am I pro-Trump? No, that's absurd.

Or if you are right wing in the US and believe that the US is the land of the free and home of the brave, well, so does Hilary Clinton. Are you pro-Clinton?

The connection is absurd, but it parrotted daily by US politicians and US media.

86. Retric ◴[] No.43703685{16}[source]
> Homophobia isn't lying, it's an opinion/ judgement

The lies about gay people are actual lies, even if they come from homophobia.

Luring people into gayness, crap about destroying the institution of marriage etc etc.

> SS tax is a tax on your income, "Income Tax" is a type of tax. Both are true

When taking about “tax burden,” there’s no excuse around the names. I’ve got little interest in digging up 20 year old clips, but you’re 45 you should remember that phrase.

87. Retric ◴[] No.43703707{16}[source]
> Because "social security" isn't a tax at all.

There’s a line on your W-2 that literally says “4. Social Security Tax withheld” https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw2.pdf

You literally just said “SS tax is a tax on your income”

88. mlindner ◴[] No.43725751{3}[source]
Israeli Defense Forces is not a designated terrorist organization. If you can name any Jewish supremacy designated terrorist organizations then yeah anyone supporting those should be deported too.
89. mlindner ◴[] No.43725754{3}[source]
> Perhaps currently. How long do you think we should wait until we can start doing that? At the current pace probably a year or two?

I think you should stop letting the propaganda get to you and take a step back and look at things from a rational perspective. I'd bet over 50% of the things that you think happened in this administration did not in fact happen.

replies(1): >>43734890 #
90. wqaatwt ◴[] No.43734890{4}[source]
> I'd bet over 50% of the things that you think happened

How and why would that change anything in any way? From a rational perspective 5% of those things are way too much already. Much less even...

In a rational and sane world Trump would have been impeached and possibly imprisoned just over his government funded golf trips that he is using to funnel millions of tax payer money to his own businesses. Just running a car dealership on the white house lawn should have resulted in impeachment. Yet these are the tiniest most insignificant things compared to everything else he is doing.

In our unfortunate reality paying him several hundred millions to just do nothing but play golf for 4 years would seem like an exceptionally good deal..

I mean your argument is basically “well he’s extremely horrible but at least he doesn’t eat babies, so shut up..”