Most active commenters
  • Retric(12)
  • Braxton1980(9)
  • baq(4)

←back to thread

1210 points jbegley | 31 comments | | HN request time: 4.642s | source | bottom
Show context
aucisson_masque ◴[] No.43656830[source]
I like to think we are in a better place than russia for instance with all its propaganda and jailed journalists, but then i see these kind of article come over and over....

Most of the people in the 'free world' goes on mainstream media, like facebook to get their news. These companies are enticed to 'suck up' to the government because at the end they are business, they need to be in good term with ruling class.

you end up with most media complying with the official story pushed by government and friends, and most people believing that because no one has the time to fact check everything.

One could argue that the difference with russia is that someone can actually look for real information, but even in russia people have access to vpn to bypass the censorship.

Another difference would be that you are allowed to express your opinion, whereas in russia you would be put to jail, that's true but only in a very limited way. Since everyone goes on mainstream media and they enforce the government narrative, you can't speak there. you are merely allowed to speak out in your little corner out of reach to anyone, and even then since most people believe the government propaganda, your arguments won't be heard at all.

The more i think about it, the less difference i see.

replies(28): >>43656906 #>>43656916 #>>43656934 #>>43656946 #>>43656968 #>>43656989 #>>43657304 #>>43657562 #>>43657645 #>>43658191 #>>43658886 #>>43659133 #>>43660757 #>>43661511 #>>43661686 #>>43662234 #>>43662676 #>>43663016 #>>43663274 #>>43663600 #>>43665341 #>>43667845 #>>43669651 #>>43672708 #>>43675307 #>>43680694 #>>43701378 #>>43726510 #
Braxton1980 ◴[] No.43660757[source]
>Another difference would be that you are allowed to express your opinion, whereas in russia you would be put to jail, that's true but only in a very limited way.

Although not even close in number and punishment the US government is deporting people for speaking against Israel.

I think we do have a much better system because we are aware of these cases, you can speak out about the issue, and our court system can rule against the current admin.

What makes this possible to either the level of Russia or the US is how much the supporters of the regime want it. This is regardless of morality, legality, or the precedent it sets.

replies(7): >>43660850 #>>43661305 #>>43661518 #>>43661534 #>>43662791 #>>43666004 #>>43669480 #
kurthr ◴[] No.43661534[source]
Exactly, it's the "they're the same anyway", "both sides" equivalency that allows the buildup of antidemocratic de-politicization and apathy. This is one of the goals of the _there_is_no_truth_ radicalization that is fundamental to Russian political control
replies(3): >>43661867 #>>43662333 #>>43664813 #
Retric ◴[] No.43662333[source]
Ehh, I’ve got not particular stake in this conflict so it’s really interesting to see how each side is using propaganda and how obvious the propaganda is when you’re not emotionally invested.

Each side is using different tactics to fit the strength of their positions and how well various messages resonate. “They are the same anyway” is useful for a side who wants people to be inactive, it’s not some universal benefit to both parties. Instead each side wants different people to be engaged vs apathetic, which hardly unusual.

replies(2): >>43662937 #>>43669869 #
1. baq ◴[] No.43662937[source]
Both sides want their side engaged and the other apathetic. On a national level this means FSB employing hundreds if not thousands of people to troll political discourse in social media in the west to maximize the amount of ‘I don’t care anymore’ people. A very asymmetric setup exposing the underbelly of free speech cultures.
replies(3): >>43662980 #>>43663734 #>>43669303 #
2. logicchains ◴[] No.43662980[source]
>A very asymmetric setup exposing the underbelly of free speech cultures

As opposed to non-free-speech cultures like Russia and China where people have absolutely no say in whatever their leaders do? Because that's inevitably what happens when you give people in power the power to restrict speech: they restrict any speech critical of them. We're even seeing this in developed democracies like Germany where a journalist was recently fined for posting a meme online of a politician holding a sign saying "I hate free speech".

replies(2): >>43663255 #>>43664281 #
3. baq ◴[] No.43663255[source]
Whataboutism does not change anything about it being a weak spot. I’m only saying the free speech west can’t use the same tactic against these kind of adversaries because they’re insulated against them.
replies(1): >>43663863 #
4. ◴[] No.43663734[source]
5. Retric ◴[] No.43663863{3}[source]
Free speech including paid speech isn’t really a knock on free speech.

Someone can be persuaded by an argument they heard once, but can’t per persuaded by an argument they never hear. Thus blocking speech by preventing any kind of speech including paid speech is problematic.

replies(1): >>43667176 #
6. netrus ◴[] No.43664281[source]
It's important to be precise because everything is not the same. In the German case the ruling was not because someone posted a critical meme, but because it was not entirely obvious the picture was edited (as in: you and I can immediately see the photo was edited, but some people will not recognize the edit). I do not agree with the ruling, but as a citizen I am happy that in Germany we still care if claims are true or not (and try to prevent people from lying).
replies(2): >>43666037 #>>43666362 #
7. Whoppertime ◴[] No.43666037{3}[source]
Isn't that just relying on the stupidity of someone who may not exist? Like every single year people make the same dumb joke "Republicans vote on Tuesday and Democrats vote on Wednesday" leading to prosecution for misinformation when they cannot prove anyone actually tried voting on the wrong day because of the meme
replies(2): >>43666760 #>>43669732 #
8. immibis ◴[] No.43666362{3}[source]
Does this happiness that some people care whether claims are true or not overrule the arrest and deportation of peaceful protestors, and people in general based on social media posts, or do you also feel happy about that?
9. Retric ◴[] No.43666760{4}[source]
Once you start talking millions of people someone will make that or any other mistake.

The US has a higher threshold, but it’s clear those standards mean many people are duped by “obvious” lies. It’s kind of an arbitrary line, but ignoring the dumb feels like a mistake to me when dumb people are active in society, still vote, etc.

10. baq ◴[] No.43667176{4}[source]
I’m saying ‘free speech is an obvious weakness’, not ‘we should disallow free speech’. Very different things.
replies(1): >>43667765 #
11. Retric ◴[] No.43667765{5}[source]
Having outside actors in the conversation is a strength.
replies(2): >>43668817 #>>43672970 #
12. monetus ◴[] No.43668817{6}[source]
The contention is that they in particular aren't good faith actors unlike other outside actors, iiuc.
replies(1): >>43668897 #
13. Retric ◴[] No.43668897{7}[source]
Bad faith actors are also beneficial.

Kids who grow up watching commercials start distrusting them. Free speech is not about any one issue but all topics. In many ways curating so people see the kinds of things they agree with is vastly more harmful than propaganda.

replies(2): >>43669741 #>>43670447 #
14. Braxton1980 ◴[] No.43669303[source]
So. Maybe my experience but why are these bots and trolls always pushing messages that help the Republicans.
15. Braxton1980 ◴[] No.43669732{4}[source]
Misinformation isnt
16. Braxton1980 ◴[] No.43669741{8}[source]
What happens when people are tol 1. Don't trust the media 2. Don't trust the opposition 3. Don't trust the experts

Doesn't this lead to a situation where only bad actors exist?

It people are so savy because of advertising why did tens of millions believe the election was stolen?

replies(1): >>43669906 #
17. Retric ◴[] No.43669906{9}[source]
> What happens when people are…

Everyone doesn’t fit those criteria. Motivated reasoning exists with and without propaganda. The specific words used may end up mimicking “a message,” but you can find millions of disgruntled people after any election.

There’s a great deal of talk around how much social media etc changed the landscape but American politics looks basically the same before and after Facebook.

replies(1): >>43671653 #
18. goatlover ◴[] No.43670447{8}[source]
I no longer believe this, seeing how democracy is under threat around the world from such abuses of free speech.
replies(1): >>43671043 #
19. ghssds ◴[] No.43671043{9}[source]
Free speech is an essential component of democracy.
replies(1): >>43671671 #
20. Braxton1980 ◴[] No.43671653{10}[source]
>American politics looks basically the same before and after Facebook.

Trump and MAGA Republicans lie more openly than traditional Republicans. American politics are not the same.

Here's an easy exercise.

This is a post from MGT. Show me anything even close to this insane from an elected person in high office (house, senate, president) in the last 50 years

https://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/styles/scale_w1024/s3/st...

replies(1): >>43671771 #
21. Braxton1980 ◴[] No.43671671{10}[source]
1.The majority of people are not intelligent. Source is polls on whether there was wide spread election fraud

2. Politicans want money and power. They have no issues lying or manipulating people to get it

3. In a country like Russia the government can counter any information with widespread arrests and fear.

4. In a country with free speech there is little to no recourse.

Meaning that Russia, China, etc can use misinformation against us and we can't do anything. On the other hand we can try the same but they can simply use authoritarian tactics to supress it.

5. Trump has shown that the threshold for lying was set artificially low by past politicians. His success while lying about events that are easily disproven multiple times is evidence for all future politicians to lie.

replies(1): >>43671851 #
22. Retric ◴[] No.43671771{11}[source]
That’s fairly mild, but it’s not so easy to link to 20+ year old clips. There’s some real bangers of homophobic rants in your time frame, but you may be a little young to remember any of them.

In terms of lies here’s one that was a central tenant of the part of the party line for decades. Social security isn’t an income tax because we have a tax called the income tax.

replies(2): >>43677004 #>>43679500 #
23. Retric ◴[] No.43671851{11}[source]
“The number of people overall who believe the election was fraudulent has hovered around 35% since November 2020, but this percentage has not increased significantly as the claim purports.” https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/feb/02/viral-imag...

Which is different than asking if voting fraud changed the outcome and more importantly different than asking which side benefited. Someone who calls targeted overly aggressive culling of voter registrations fraud has something of a point, even if that’s a long way from stuffing ballots or meaningful changes in results.

replies(1): >>43679428 #
24. baq ◴[] No.43672970{6}[source]
They are noise generators with a goal of raising the noise floor above the pain threshold, in essence they’re using free speech to shut down free speech itself.
replies(1): >>43677269 #
25. Braxton1980 ◴[] No.43677004{12}[source]
Homophobia isn't lying, it's an opinion/ judgement

>Social security isn’t an income tax because we have a tax called the income tax.

SS tax is a tax on your income, "Income Tax" is a type of tax. Both are true

replies(1): >>43703685 #
26. Retric ◴[] No.43677269{7}[source]
I’d say the same about social media. However IMO the value of free speech isn’t in having a clear message to directly improve things, the value is being able to steal ideas from anyone. “Obamacare” was originally a Republican idea, but once an idea is out there anyone can take it.

Ideas don’t need to win on day one, if it takes 30 years that’s still plenty useful.

27. Braxton1980 ◴[] No.43679428{12}[source]
I don't think taking all political affiliations into account makes sense. Let me use another poll that had a similar outcome of your poll for all political affiliations:

#--------------------------------------------------------

A 2023 poll found that 71% of Republicans believe the election was illegitimate. [1]. The exact question in the poll was "Thinking about the results of the 2020 presidential election, do you think that Joe Biden legitimately won enough votes to win the presidency, or not? Do you think there's been solid evidence of that, or is that your suspicion only?"

All - Note legitimate Solid + suspicious = 38%

Republican - Not legitimate: solid evidence - 41% suspicious only - 30%

1. Democrats or liberals (poll allowed for either) who didn't vote for Trump or dislike him are going to say the election was legitimate regardless of evidence and outcomes of investigations. This is why I only use what Republican voters think (about 2020) as an indicator of public stupidity *

2. This poll was in 2023, after court cases and numerous state investigations/recounts. Therefore saying it's "suspicious" is as stupid as saying there is "solid evidence".

If you have a suspicion a crime occurred, then multiple investigations find nothing or show the evidence your suspicious were based were fake, and you don't change your view that's stupid.

> Which is different than asking if voting fraud changed the outcome...

That's what Trump and many of the key players on his side claimed.

> Someone who calls targeted overly aggressive culling of voter registrations fraud has something of a point..

No, they don't. They are misusing the term "fraud" in an election situation (a.k.a "election fraud) [2]. Voter/Election fraud is clearly defined by the US government [3]. Voter suppression through a legal action isn't fraud. You can claim that it's "wrong" or "immoral" but not fraud.

#--------------------------------------------------------

The difference is clear if you look at something as either an opinion or fact. An opinion is not falsifiable.

"Widespread election fraud is why Trump lost the 2020 election" - This either happened or it didn't. It's not an opinion/judgement. [4]

"Aggressive culling of registrations caused a candidate to win/lose" - Since culling of registrations legally happens [5] whether or not it's aggressive is a judgement because "aggressiveness" is subjective.

> even if that’s a long way

It's not on the same scale because one is a crime. I think I need more to understand why you want to merge different accusations of fraud or suppression when discussing different elections.

#--------------------------------------------------------

[1] https://www.cnn.com/2023/08/03/politics/cnn-poll-republicans... [1 Poll Document] - https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/23895856-cnn-poll-on... Page 49

[2] Wikipedia's article on Election fraud describes it better.

"Electoral fraud, sometimes referred to as election manipulation, voter fraud, or vote rigging, involves illegal interference with the process of an election, either by increasing the vote share of a favored candidate, depressing the vote share of rival candidates, or both. It differs from but often goes hand-in-hand with voter suppression. "

[3] https://www.usa.gov/voter-fraud

[4] You can say "I believe X happened" which is an opinion however this is a judgement that needs a factual base. If the evidence is fake, doesn't exist, or you were lied and you are aware of this, then you're lying about the basis for your opinion which invalidates it (imo)

[5] I'm assuming you meant legal culling

* There's similar high numbers for Democrats talking about Trump's win in 2016 though most polls ask about Russian interference helping him, which is a judgement not a lie since this did happen, but it could also be an indicator. The 2020 situation was just much more obvious because the claim by Trump is of cheating NOT influence. The lie is that Trump was directly involved and to a high degree but blah blah complicated.

replies(1): >>43679771 #
28. Braxton1980 ◴[] No.43679500{12}[source]
>but you may be a little young to remember any of them. I'm 45

> Social security isn’t an income tax because we have a tax called the income tax.

I took too long to be able to edit my other comment but I should have asked who said this? Because "social security" isn't a tax at all. In my other comment I assumed you meant tax we pay to fund SS but this still leaves me confused, can you provide me with a quote that shows the lie?

replies(1): >>43703707 #
29. Retric ◴[] No.43679771{13}[source]
> Therefore saying it's "suspicious" is as stupid as saying there is "solid evidence".

Hardly, I find quantum mechanics suspect without having a better option. I’m not saying there’s any kind of conspiracy or anything and sure it fits the experiments we have done. Yet, I suspect most people who actually learn the details have similar reactions it doesn’t fit our experience. Sadly the universe doesn’t care it it seems consistent to us.

There’s a deep cultural divide in the US to the point where people have trouble remembering how close support is for each party. Because politics is so regional it’s easy for each side to overestimate how popular that side is. Imagine living in a county where 80% are voting for one side and almost all roadside posters are supporting one candidate. Suddenly the other side winning just doesn’t fit everyday experience.

When either side wins a huge number of people will find it suspicious, that’s just how our heuristics and pattern matching work. A historian looking back on 2020 and 2024 isn’t going to find the election results odd because wider forces definitely favored the winning side in those elections, but people today don’t have that separation. Thinking there’s widespread and obvious fraud is different.

30. Retric ◴[] No.43703685{13}[source]
> Homophobia isn't lying, it's an opinion/ judgement

The lies about gay people are actual lies, even if they come from homophobia.

Luring people into gayness, crap about destroying the institution of marriage etc etc.

> SS tax is a tax on your income, "Income Tax" is a type of tax. Both are true

When taking about “tax burden,” there’s no excuse around the names. I’ve got little interest in digging up 20 year old clips, but you’re 45 you should remember that phrase.

31. Retric ◴[] No.43703707{13}[source]
> Because "social security" isn't a tax at all.

There’s a line on your W-2 that literally says “4. Social Security Tax withheld” https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw2.pdf

You literally just said “SS tax is a tax on your income”