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213 points cnst | 40 comments | | HN request time: 1.428s | source | bottom
1. galkk ◴[] No.42151363[source]
I love it(in context of FreeBSD):

—————

What does not work: Keyboard, mouse, TB & USB-C ports, thermal/freq mgt.

Conclusion: Highly recommended

replies(6): >>42151580 #>>42151800 #>>42152904 #>>42153400 #>>42154095 #>>42155671 #
2. Muromec ◴[] No.42151580[source]
I mean it's a fun computer to write drivers for. You will be that dude if you make it all work and share with community
replies(1): >>42154702 #
3. cnst ◴[] No.42151800[source]
That was a bit ironic, indeed, but at least the USB-A works!

For what it's worth, the majority of mechanical RGB keyboards and mice are USB-A anyways, so, if you're fine with a very powerful machine that wouldn't have an internal keyboard support for a few weeks, sounds like a good advice anyways!

replies(2): >>42153045 #>>42155930 #
4. zdw ◴[] No.42152904[source]
Somewhat surprised that networking is not mentioned in either list. Maybe a USB to ethernet dongle was used?
replies(1): >>42154046 #
5. glitchc ◴[] No.42153045[source]
An ARM64 is "a very powerful computer"? The whole promise with ARM is better thermals and long battery life, not screaming performance. With the thermals/cpu not working, we don't even get that.
replies(1): >>42153474 #
6. doubled112 ◴[] No.42153400[source]
Sounds like some of the Linux phones. This is our flagship device. It doesn't have a working camera or radios, but who needs those?
replies(2): >>42155232 #>>42156427 #
7. viraptor ◴[] No.42153474{3}[source]
M4 crushing benchmarks and AWS running Graviton 2 would disagree on the idea of "whole premise".
replies(2): >>42153567 #>>42156266 #
8. ksec ◴[] No.42153567{4}[source]
I always knew hardware discussions on HN were below the normal standards. But sometimes I am still surprised at how low it can go.
replies(3): >>42154507 #>>42155219 #>>42156276 #
9. MBCook ◴[] No.42154046[source]
That makes sense. If you have working USB-A, then any USB ethernet adapter supported by FreeBSD should work right?

That’s actually a pretty big escape hatch for early development. It explains how you’d be able to get past having a nonfunctional keyboard pretty easily, for example.

10. yapyap ◴[] No.42154095[source]
What is a TB?
replies(2): >>42154114 #>>42188448 #
11. useless_foghorn ◴[] No.42154114[source]
Thunderbolt port
replies(1): >>42192980 #
12. simfree ◴[] No.42154507{5}[source]
The finer grained performance per watt vs silicon cost set in the context of use case is just lost in HN hardware conversations like this that ignore total cost of ownership, vendor politics and such.

Everyone is buying the tool that does the job, or building that tool if they want to make that large investment...

replies(1): >>42155782 #
13. jandrese ◴[] No.42154702[source]
The post was from Poul-Henning Kamp, who writes a lot of drivers for FreeBSD. Him having this laptop is good news for future compatibility.
14. ahoka ◴[] No.42155219{5}[source]
And it usually ends with some weird implied conclusion, like “AMD-Intel duopoly bad, Apple monopoly good”.
replies(1): >>42156300 #
15. yonatan8070 ◴[] No.42155232[source]
Every time I hear about mobile Linux releases I get excited just for the chance to get away from Android and iOS, then I get disappointed to find that the list of things that don't work includes like half the phone
replies(1): >>42156375 #
16. mst ◴[] No.42155671[source]
If you prefer your usual (external) keyboard and mouse, which plenty of people (myself included) do, the rest of the list is kinda 'meh' as restrictions go.

Honestly when my current Helix 2 finally starts to die on me I'll be looking for a tablet or hybrid replacement since I neither want nor need an attached keyboard+mouse anyway, in my normal usage they're mostly just something that takes up desk space.

Obviously there are also plenty of people with preferences entirely incompatible with this approach, but so it goes.

17. llm_trw ◴[] No.42155782{6}[source]
There's a difference in cost per flop at home and in a data center.

I'm updating my wiring and air conditioning for a 7x5090 workstation because having that power for experiments under the desk is worth the cost (and fire hazard).

If I had to build 10,000 of those I'd be banned by NVidia from ever buying their hardware again.

replies(1): >>42155818 #
18. maayank ◴[] No.42155818{7}[source]
What are you doing with the workstation that it’s worth the cost?
replies(2): >>42155838 #>>42156290 #
19. llm_trw ◴[] No.42155838{8}[source]
High dimensional computations for time series data in finance.
replies(1): >>42158839 #
20. smolder ◴[] No.42155930[source]
I'm unsure what RGB or a keyboard being mechanical has to do with it being USB-A, or what the relevance is, but yes, there are many USB-A peripherals available.
replies(2): >>42156606 #>>42158001 #
21. DeathArrow ◴[] No.42156266{4}[source]
If you consider Geekbench a good benchmark...
replies(1): >>42192976 #
22. DeathArrow ◴[] No.42156276{5}[source]
To me it seems some people developed some highly political or even religious views on tech. Truth doesn't matter as much as it used to. It's more of "I like the idea behind X, I think X is cool so X should be the best thing ever".
23. DeathArrow ◴[] No.42156290{8}[source]
If I'd have those GPUs, I'd use them to run some AI models locally. But since I am not rich and I don't make money from that, I won't buy those GPUs.
24. DeathArrow ◴[] No.42156300{6}[source]
I wonder what I would discover if I do some archeology and look at HN discussion when Apple used PowerPC CPUs.
replies(1): >>42156418 #
25. grishka ◴[] No.42156375{3}[source]
I have a feeling that the Linux developer community in general just constantly prioritizes the wrong things. They love to boast about technical achievements instead of doing something that would actually enable real-world regular-usage scenarios. Not helped by the fact that stable ABIs are basically nonexistent, especially for kernel modules.

Is it even possible to use Linux on desktop without ever having to edit config files or run commands in the terminal?

replies(1): >>42159126 #
26. windexh8er ◴[] No.42156418{7}[source]
Considering HN started in 2007 I don't think your expedition will yield a ton from the heyday of Mac PowerPC. Apple shipped the last PowerPC hardware in 2006.
27. m4rtink ◴[] No.42156427[source]
I have been using Sailfish OS for more than 10 years daily, withou issues. And many OS releases for the PinePhone work quite fine as well. :)
replies(1): >>42158077 #
28. cnst ◴[] No.42156606{3}[source]
The point is that most of the keyboards for sale on Amazon are still USB-A, even the more fancy ones, even though Apple useds tend to portray USB-A as last-century and deprecated. USB mice is still faster and more fluid cursor movement than Bluetooth, too.

Also of note, even the most premium keyboards and mice are Full Speed USB 1.1, running at up to 12Mbps. You can verify this yourself through the Apple menu, About This Mac, System Report, USB, and look for your external USB keyboard or mouse.

Compare to the USB-C USB4 ports being capable of up to 40000Mbps. And, to be full-featured, they need to support up to 100W, or more, of power input, as well as output in excess of what would be required for a USB-A USB3 5000Mbps or even 10000Mbps port. Which is to say, for the cost of a single USB-C, a manufacturer can easily provide 4 or more USB-A ports, with a change to spare. That would avoid unnecessary adapters and improve compatibility.

Not to mention that most of the memory sticks are still USB-A, too, and there's no Fit USB sticks for USB-C at all, only for USB-A. Which means that it's far easier to semi-permanently extend storage of a USB-A laptop than of a USB-C one, which you may want to do to try out a system without messing up with your main Windows installation.

It's basically a nab against Apple's decision to remove a useful port, especially on the M4 Mac mini, where they now have USB-C ports that are not fully-featured anymore — the ports at the front have a different spec than the ones at the back, which we all remember now at the time of the announcement, but imagine dealing with it several years down the line, where you'll have to be looking up specs and troubleshooting your things not working the way you expect. They could have easily avoided it by NOT including the 2 slow USB-C ports, and including like 4 USB-A ones instead.

replies(1): >>42157752 #
29. ◴[] No.42157752{4}[source]
30. cnst ◴[] No.42158001{3}[source]
> The only thing my post was addressing is that you called out RGB mechanical keyboards specifically when there are also plenty of non-RGB and non-mechanical options. It was bizarre, like this reply.

The point was that even the more "premium" products are still USB-A, not USB-C.

USB-A simply isn't going anywhere.

Personally, I find USB-A more useful than HDMI, since HDMI is kind of inferior to USB-C in every possible way. I've tried using a 43" UHD TV as a monitor, since they're as cheap as $149.99 USD brand new, but it had noticeable delay even at 4k@60Hz, and just didn't feel right. The UHD resolution at 43" itself would actually be perfect, since 1080p at 20.5in used to be my fav a few years ago (before QHD at 23" started reaching the sub-$200 range), but, alas, the specs of a proper monitor (brightness, matte, USB-C with PD and a hub) are just better suited for a display compared to a TV, even if the resolution itself may seem ideal.

replies(2): >>42160039 #>>42160561 #
31. nextos ◴[] No.42158077{3}[source]
SFOS is sadly not well known in the US as its not sold there, which has definitely hurt popularity. Lack of VoLTE support for quite a long time didn't help either. Still, it's a great option I recommend to anyone who wants to escape from the current duopoly.
32. maayank ◴[] No.42158839{9}[source]
Private algotrading? Nice. May the odds be always at your favor!
33. yonatan8070 ◴[] No.42159126{4}[source]
> They love to boast about technical achievements instead of doing something that would actually enable real-world regular-usage scenarios.

For mobile Linux in particular, I found that it's quite the opposite, I see projects like Phosh and KDE Plasma Mobile constantly showing UI and UX improvemnts (albeit at a slower pace than desktop projects), while basic hardware support is non-functional.

Of course I'm not expecting every UX/UI dev to abandon their project to jump into low-level kernel development and bring support for more devices, but it feels like the desktop environments are developing for a device that doesn't exist.

> Is it even possible to use Linux on desktop without ever having to edit config files or run commands in the terminal?

On a modern Linux distro (that isn't one of the "advanced" ones), the answer is yes. If you install something like Mint or Ubuntu, you have a graphical app store and driver manager (which AFAIK you only need for NVIDIA GPUs).

replies(1): >>42162208 #
34. smolder ◴[] No.42160039{4}[source]
> The point was that even the more "premium" products are still USB-A, not USB-C.

Often they're both, with detachable cables. Again, it was just weird that you brought up RGB specifically, something not at all central to your original point, a gimmick marketed at 'gamers' which is pointless in a well lit room; as well as mechanical keyboards specifically; as well that you've carried on like this in reply. Please don't take the time to reply again.

35. jasomill ◴[] No.42160561{4}[source]
I've tried using a 43" UHD TV as a monitor, since they're as cheap as $149.99 USD brand new, but it had noticeable delay even at 4k@60Hz, and just didn't feel right.

This is typically due to default settings on TVs enabling various high-latency post-processing options.

Most TVs have "game mode" settings that disable all these at once, at which point latency is comparable to monitors.

Case in point: at both 60 Hz and 120 Hz*, 4K latency on my LG C4 is within a millisecond of the lowest-latency monitors listed here:

https://www.rtings.com/monitor/tests/inputs/input-lag

I fully agree that HDMI is inferior to USB-C, if only because quality USB-C-to-HDMI adapters are widely available, and mini/micro HDMI connectors commonly used on small devices (not including this laptop) are garbage.

* Probably also true at 144 Hz, but the linked table doesn't have a dedicated column for 144 Hz, complicating comparisons.

36. jamaicahest ◴[] No.42162208{5}[source]
> (which AFAIK you only need for NVIDIA GPUs).

Which is what a lot of users have.

replies(1): >>42162484 #
37. yonatan8070 ◴[] No.42162484{6}[source]
Yes, and in the driver manager you can install the relevant drivers with a few clicks
38. koziserek ◴[] No.42188448[source]
Tuberculosis
39. hulitu ◴[] No.42192976{5}[source]
It is a start. A wrong one, but still a start. /s
40. hulitu ◴[] No.42192980{3}[source]
Are there any uses for this today ?