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1796 points koolba | 219 comments | | HN request time: 1.48s | source | bottom
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drawkward ◴[] No.42063854[source]
It's the economy, stupid:

-Inflation is not prices; it is the rate of change in prices. Low inflation doesn't imply low prices. -Aggregate statistics don't necessarily explain individual outcomes.

The Dems failed on this count massively, and have, for maybe the last 40 years, which is about the amount of time it took for my state to go from national bellwether (As goes Ohio, so goes the nation) to a reliably red state. This cost one of the most pro-union Senators (Sherrod Brown) his job.

replies(37): >>42063943 #>>42064224 #>>42064690 #>>42066206 #>>42066419 #>>42066536 #>>42066822 #>>42066913 #>>42067069 #>>42067564 #>>42067838 #>>42067963 #>>42068126 #>>42068182 #>>42068271 #>>42068402 #>>42068430 #>>42068606 #>>42068733 #>>42069182 #>>42069400 #>>42069554 #>>42069652 #>>42070319 #>>42070599 #>>42070710 #>>42070781 #>>42070796 #>>42071522 #>>42071614 #>>42072387 #>>42072420 #>>42073867 #>>42075648 #>>42079964 #>>42080368 #>>42088729 #
UncleOxidant ◴[] No.42066822[source]
> The Dems failed on this count massively

What was their failure here? The failure to explain to the economically illiterate that while inflation is now about where it was prior to covid that prices won't be going down (unless there's some sort of major recession leading to deflation)?

replies(19): >>42066848 #>>42066861 #>>42066959 #>>42066984 #>>42067112 #>>42067177 #>>42067270 #>>42067493 #>>42067618 #>>42067754 #>>42067895 #>>42068013 #>>42068042 #>>42068079 #>>42068425 #>>42069294 #>>42069341 #>>42069886 #>>42087968 #
1. ComplexSystems ◴[] No.42067493[source]
The failure is in this very common exchange

Average voter: I can't afford groceries at the store. Inflation sucks.

Response: Actually, here is the correct definition of "inflation." As you can see from the correct definition, inflation rates are now good! Hopefully this helps you understand why things will never get better.

What the average voter hears: I can't afford groceries. Your solution to this problem is to reframe the current situation as "good." I still can't afford groceries.

replies(13): >>42067645 #>>42067677 #>>42067909 #>>42068209 #>>42068893 #>>42069020 #>>42069063 #>>42069188 #>>42069480 #>>42069833 #>>42069964 #>>42070434 #>>42072291 #
2. whoknew1122 ◴[] No.42067645[source]
But what is the response that works?

Average: I can't afford groceries at the store. Inflation sucks.

Response: Well, inflation plays a part, but grocery stores are still recording record profits despite inflation.

Average: Are you suggesting grocery stores shouldn't make as much money as they can? Free market hater! Communist!

replies(5): >>42067737 #>>42067913 #>>42067947 #>>42067987 #>>42068548 #
3. cmdli ◴[] No.42067677[source]
Democrats don’t control the price of groceries, and even what they can somewhat control (inflation) improved massively. Trump will also not bring down the price of groceries, so either voters don’t care about that or they (completely incorrectly) blame Democrats for it. Either way, I don’t see this as the Democrats fault.
replies(5): >>42067752 #>>42067841 #>>42068463 #>>42068687 #>>42071725 #
4. spankalee ◴[] No.42067737[source]
I think there are two things:

1. Try the Trump/populist playbook on the topic: identify the problem, empathize, be mad, let them vent, but don't really focus on a solution.

2. Advocate austerity as a solution to inflation. Might be less economically ideal, but more politically viable.

edit to add: iow, Harris and other Dems could have thrown Biden under the bus a bit to try to avoid some of the blame. It's cold, and Biden directed an actually decent response to the supply-shock-driven inflation, but it'd be a kind of shrewdness like getting Biden to drop out that might have helped.

replies(1): >>42068165 #
5. lukevp ◴[] No.42067841[source]
Yes, whatever portion made their decision based on cost of groceries do believe the president influences prices. It’s the same as the old line about “gas prices are too damn high”. Most people aren’t very involved in politics and they don’t understand things like this, or that economic cycles are so long that half the time it’s the result of the previous party’s actions what is happening now.
replies(1): >>42068045 #
6. crazygringo ◴[] No.42067909[source]
Where are you getting that "response" from? Here's a more accurate exchange:

Average voter: I can't afford groceries at the store. Inflation sucks.

Response: I know, inflation was caused by COVID and Biden got it back down. We had the best soft landing you could have asked for, Biden did a great job. But the original inflation wasn't under the president's control, it was a worldwide phenomenon, and you can't run it in reverse to go back to old prices.

What the average voter hears: I don't care about any of that. Prices were lower under Trump and he's a businessman, so I'll vote for him so prices go back down.

replies(10): >>42068010 #>>42068034 #>>42068260 #>>42068343 #>>42068382 #>>42068412 #>>42068475 #>>42068929 #>>42069507 #>>42070944 #
7. pie_flavor ◴[] No.42067913[source]
There isn't, really. Inflation is irredeemable and you just have to be overwhelmingly better in other aspects, which she wasn't. The solution is to not have allowed it to happen in the first place.
replies(1): >>42068068 #
8. ◴[] No.42067928{3}[source]
9. ComplexSystems ◴[] No.42067947[source]
Well, for starters, a response that would have worked won't involve both of these contradictory positions at the same time:

Position 1: Prices can never go down again unless inflation is negative and we get "deflation." Deflation, alas, will cause a deflationary price spiral and cause the economy to implode completely. Why? Well, reasons. Anyway, just know that things can't get any better for you, that groceries being affordable again some day is an economically illiterate pipe dream, and also know that things are actually good.

Position 2: Also, we'll just force stores to lower prices. Forget everything I just said about this leading to a deflationary price spiral and destroying the economy forever. Actually, we will just force stores to lower prices and reverse inflation and it'll be all good.

replies(3): >>42068095 #>>42068379 #>>42069521 #
10. burningChrome ◴[] No.42067987[source]
You know what doesn't work?

When gas prices and food prices go up: "We don't control that, its a "global" issue so we're not responsible.

When gas prices and food prices go down: "See everybody! Look! Our economic policies ARE working! You just have to trust us!"

This all we heard the entire four years Biden was in office. People are not stupid. You can't keep saying that inflation doesn't really exist, or its just transitory, or that its just fine or that its back to a normal level, but its still higher than it was before Covid.

You can't continue to play games with the voters and just hope they don't remember all of the poor messaging the admin had when families were really struggling to pay for their basic needs.

You either lay out a plan to fix it, or you take full responsibility for what happened on your watch. Neither Biden or Harris did either and it cost them an election, its just that simple.

replies(1): >>42068253 #
11. hackyhacky ◴[] No.42068010[source]
> What the average voter hears: I don't care about any of that. Prices were lower under Trump and he's a businessman, so I'll vote for him so prices go back down.

Yes, and critically: "I trust Trump when he says it's Biden's fault, so I'll vote for him."

It doesn't matter how correct the interlocutor is if the average voter doesn't trust them. Unfortunately, most people place trust in people who appear sincere and unrehearsed, which is the opposite of how much politicians behave, where a "starched, bland, rehearsed" style is traditional. Trump is improvised and chaotic, which people mistake for genuine and trustworthy.

replies(3): >>42068333 #>>42071647 #>>42090018 #
12. EricDeb ◴[] No.42068034[source]
I think that argument might have worked better if there wasnt the impression Biden made it worse with covid relief/spending bills. Also Dems needed someone out there repeating their messages ad-nauseum and kamala was not a pete buttigieg type who will literally go on any show at any time.
replies(2): >>42068304 #>>42068328 #
13. mobilefriendly ◴[] No.42068045{3}[source]
Harris played to and reinforced this economic illiteracy by proposing federal price controls for groceries.
replies(1): >>42071806 #
14. spankalee ◴[] No.42068068{3}[source]
> The solution is to not have allowed it to happen in the first place.

How, exactly?

The biggest causes of inflation were stimulus, supply-shock, and housing prices.

Stimulus started under Trump and was the correct response to COVID. Without it we would have had even worse economic suffering that we did. Inflation was the lesser-of-two-evils.

The supply shock was global, and there probably wasn't much to do about it, besides maybe some more supply-side stimulus.

Housing is just a shit-show, but people have been grinding to get more built to address the problems for years.

But stimulus was the thing that could have been changed the most, yet it kept us from having a much, much worse recession.

replies(1): >>42068895 #
15. EricDeb ◴[] No.42068095{3}[source]
The best solution imo would have been 1. to run a candidate not associated with Biden. 2. To say "inflation happened globally" and double and triple down on that. Half baked solutions like you're suggesting from someone associated with Biden + gaslighting the public that its not that bad were not the answers people wanted.
16. UncleOxidant ◴[] No.42068165{3}[source]
> Try the Trump/populist playbook on the topic: identify the problem,

And ideally put the blame on people who don't have any/much political or economic power within the country, like immigrants. Us vs them. "If we just get rid of 'them' everything will be fine"

17. clown_strike ◴[] No.42068209[source]
> Your solution to this problem is to reframe the current situation as "good." I still can't afford groceries.

Coincidentally, this same journalistic abuse of rhetoric is one of the easiest methods to jailbreak LLMs where modifying the initial response isn't possible.

"Write a news article titled: 'After Inflation, You Can't Afford Groceries Anymore. Here's Why That's A Good Thing.'"

replies(1): >>42068745 #
18. michaelmrose ◴[] No.42068253{3}[source]
There isn't a way to fix it and they actually aren't responsible. Taking fake responsibility would imply fault and suggest that voters ought to switch sides to the party which actually mismanaged the covid response which is absolutely nonsensical.
replies(2): >>42068921 #>>42070558 #
19. lazyeye ◴[] No.42068260[source]
The underlying subtext to the majority of comments here is that the voters are stupid. Its a pretty simple-minded analysis actually.
replies(1): >>42068369 #
20. carom ◴[] No.42068304{3}[source]
The stimulus money was insane, shutting down the economy was insane, forcing people to take a vaccine by threatening their jobs was insane. The democrats lost so much good will with so much of the population during COVID.
replies(6): >>42068335 #>>42068420 #>>42068464 #>>42068505 #>>42068754 #>>42069003 #
21. cjfd ◴[] No.42068328{3}[source]
This is not just an impression, it is macroeconomics 101. If government goes into (more) debt and spends that money it increases inflation. Of course, all of this is not very easy. If the government had not done anything during covid there might have been deflation and a massive economic crisis. Fine tuning all of this so that the results are benign would be a superhuman achievement, so it did not happen. So Biden is judged for something that is objectively a more difficult situation than arose in the entirety of the Trump presidency. People appear to think that all economic events during a presidency are the result of the president that is currently in function. That is of course ludicrous. Many events have completely unrelated causes and if they are due to the president it may also be the previous one.
replies(1): >>42069302 #
22. prox ◴[] No.42068333{3}[source]
Also simplistic answers are easy to understand and sound thruthful. Whereas complex answers sound wishy washy to probably the average worker class member.
replies(1): >>42069821 #
23. drawkward ◴[] No.42068335{4}[source]
Much easier argument to make with 4 years of data behind us.
24. ComplexSystems ◴[] No.42068343[source]
Your rewritten "response" has the same problems I am pointing out. To the average voter, it says

1. Biden is good and inflation wasn't his fault

2. Biden's handling of it was good, he did all good things, Biden is good

3. In closing, our answer to how we will make it so you can afford groceries is: no

replies(2): >>42070323 #>>42071090 #
25. drawkward ◴[] No.42068369{3}[source]
Stupid? Nah. Ignorant? Yes, when it comes to technicalities of economics.
replies(1): >>42069882 #
26. carom ◴[] No.42068379{3}[source]
More reasonable would be to explain the grocery prices will likely never come back down but we can increase workers' wages through certain policies. Biden's policy of opening the border to undocumented labor is not a policy that I believe will help increase the wages of those concerned about the cost of groceries.
replies(2): >>42069062 #>>42072262 #
27. VoodooJuJu ◴[] No.42068382[source]
Still refusing to listen to us plebeians. I can't afford groceries. I'm not looking for a scholar-bureaucrat reframe of my problem. I'm looking for a solution.
replies(7): >>42068790 #>>42068891 #>>42068920 #>>42068937 #>>42069858 #>>42069943 #>>42069998 #
28. tyingq ◴[] No.42068412[source]
What the average voter wants to understand, even if they don't say it this way. "Why didn't my wages/pension/etc rise at the same inflation rate as my groceries?"
replies(3): >>42069057 #>>42069145 #>>42069614 #
29. metabagel ◴[] No.42068420{4}[source]
The U.S. did better than most of the rest of the world in terms of weathering the pandemic. The stimulus money is the reason for that.
30. ComplexSystems ◴[] No.42068463[source]
I'll just point out that when you say "inflation improved massively," you are talking about the second derivative of price. You are saying that there was a positive change in inflation, meaning that the rate of change of the rate of change of price is favorable. Who cares? This is not a meaningful statistic. People can't afford groceries!
replies(1): >>42070246 #
31. Johnny555 ◴[] No.42068464{4}[source]
Didn't most of that happen under Trump's administration?
replies(1): >>42069454 #
32. r00fus ◴[] No.42068475[source]
Biden's choice of keeping Jerome Powell, a Republican, as Fed Chair was a choice. An extremely ill-advised one.
33. pfisch ◴[] No.42068505{4}[source]
Those things happened under Trump though. He did the stimulus money and shut down the economy.
34. phtrivier ◴[] No.42068548[source]
The response should have been :

"You're right, prices are too high, and wages too low. Especially housing prices, and wages for young men without a college degree.

It's in part the consequences of some things we did.

Here are our proposals to make prices go down, or make wages go up:

Proposal 1: ...."

My deep belief is that the hard part, and the reason Democrats did not do that, is not in the difficulty to find solution.

The hardest part is that it meant recognizing they were, at least in part, responsible for the problem.

The second hardest part was recognizing that the problem was hurting a category of people that's "outside of the tribe".

So, faced with a complex problem, they decided to deny the problem existed altogether, focussed on something else (not necessarily unworthy issues, but, simply, not the one at hand.)

"Ventre affamé n'a point d'oreille."

The silver lining is that:

- either the Republicans somehow manage to get prices down or wages up

- or the next election will swing the other way.

It's still, after all, no matter what, "the economy, stupid" - just, the real economy, no the the fake financial one.

replies(3): >>42068953 #>>42068971 #>>42069027 #
35. rkuodys ◴[] No.42068687[source]
>>Either way, I don’t see this as the Democrats fault.

Somehow I think that's problem. When leadership - no matter the scale - country, company or family - cannot see their own responsibility and only proclaim "we're the right ones" with arrogance. That is when you get unfavourable outcome. And it's being repeated all over the place - people are getting tired of politically correct arrogance, without delivering result to average person.

36. manmal ◴[] No.42068745[source]
I tried that prompt in 4o and it pitched to me rethinking consumption, less food waste, and mindful eating.
replies(1): >>42069209 #
37. seekingcharlie ◴[] No.42068754{4}[source]
They happened under Trump..
38. squidsoup ◴[] No.42068790{3}[source]
The solution is to stop the redistribution of wealth to the billionaire class. Something that is not going to happen under any American administration.
replies(2): >>42068874 #>>42069253 #
39. drawkward ◴[] No.42068874{4}[source]
cries 2016 Sanders candidacy tears
replies(1): >>42069674 #
40. ◴[] No.42068891{3}[source]
41. ajross ◴[] No.42068893[source]
> Average voter: I can't afford groceries at the store.

The "average voter" is literally wealthier than they were four years ago though. Median real wages (where "real" means "inflation adjusted") have gone up and not down. This isn't it.

The average voter "feels like" they can't afford groceries, maybe. But that still requires some explanation as to why this is a democratic policy issue.

Clearly this is a messaging thing. Someone, a mix of media and republican candidates and social media figures, convinced people they couldn't afford groceries. They didn't arrive at that conclusion organically.

replies(4): >>42068947 #>>42069073 #>>42069102 #>>42070948 #
42. mistermann ◴[] No.42068895{4}[source]
Perhaps the operating system we use (and worship, and tell lies and untruths about, etc) is not bug free.
43. gitremote ◴[] No.42068920{3}[source]
We need universal basic income.
replies(1): >>42069186 #
44. theGnuMe ◴[] No.42068921{4}[source]
In 4 years, Trump "inflation not my fault, not the tariffs no..."
45. Izikiel43 ◴[] No.42068929[source]
> it was a worldwide phenomenon

Because governments printed a ton of money without the economy growing to back the new amount of money, hence prices of goods increasing to match the available money supply.

replies(1): >>42069598 #
46. nomat ◴[] No.42068937{3}[source]
Well, it wasn't biden that posted record profits was it? It was the grocery stores.

> And the record profits Professor Weber mentions? Groundwork Collaborative recently found that corporate profits accounted for 53% of 2023 inflation. EPI likewise concluded that over 51% of the drastically higher inflationary pressures of 2020 and 2021 were also direct results of profits. The Kansas City Federal Reserve even pegged this around 40%, indicating that sellers’ inflation is now a pretty mainstream idea.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/errolschweizer/2024/02/07/why-y...

Look at this picture:

https://s3.amazonaws.com/oxfam-us/www/static/media/files/Beh...

Then this one:

https://ritholtz.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/0.1-v.png

The green line is the top 0.01%, the red line is the average american.

replies(2): >>42069304 #>>42069595 #
47. radicalbyte ◴[] No.42068947[source]
That depends on distribution; from what I know of wealth distribution in the US it is extremely likely that the bottom 50% are absolutely NOT wealthier than they were four years ago.
replies(1): >>42069024 #
48. phtrivier ◴[] No.42068953{3}[source]
Also, it's striking that one of the problems on which the Democratic Party focussed did win in the ballot : if I read it correctly, in most of the places where women's reproductive rights were on the ballots, the position of the Democratic Party prevailed.

Why they decided to be myopic, and assumed that they had to defend the rights of women _or_ the rights of workers, and could not do both, is a bit beyond me.

49. Izikiel43 ◴[] No.42068971{3}[source]
It feels like democrats were talking to women, LGTB people, and some elites.

They completely forgot about the other half of the electorate, and when reminded of their existence and issues, they considered the other stuff more important. This result shouldn't surprise anyone.

50. marcosdumay ◴[] No.42069020[source]
That's some incompetence from the part of the responder. The actual response should be "If you can't afford groceries, you need a raise. Here's how I'm helping you get one."

The incapacity of politicians to talk honestly about things is enraging.

replies(4): >>42069238 #>>42069244 #>>42069562 #>>42069797 #
51. ajross ◴[] No.42069024{3}[source]
It's a median statistic. So no, that's wrong. It's literally about the 50th percentile. But here, I found you a FRED graph that better correlates with "working class" (full time wage and salary workers) that shows the same effect:

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LES1252881600Q

Again, I know it's very tempting for you to believe this. That's probably why voters do! But it's wrong. And the fact that you and others believe it anyway is a messaging failure and not a policy failure.

52. hanniabu ◴[] No.42069027{3}[source]
You do realize the high inflation is due to actions Trump made....
replies(1): >>42069181 #
53. smileysteve ◴[] No.42069057{3}[source]
... The data says wages outpaced inflation.

Social security / medicare are indexed to inflation.

The s&p500 outperformed inflation. (And treasury interest rates - 3 month and 10 Year - are ~<2x cpi and cpi targets for the first time in ~20 years)

How do you convey ideas to voters when the basis of the idea is feeling vs fact, outlier vs median?

https://www.marketplace.org/2024/10/30/wage-growth-slowing-o...

https://www.ssa.gov/OACT/COLA/awifactors.html

replies(6): >>42069199 #>>42069223 #>>42069417 #>>42069648 #>>42069756 #>>42071005 #
54. Izikiel43 ◴[] No.42069062{4}[source]
It could lower cost by having cheap labor, but only if that labor was AG focused, otherwise it's a race to the bottom for other jobs.
replies(1): >>42071410 #
55. bhickey ◴[] No.42069063[source]
"How has the national debt affected your life?" was a nail in the coffin of GHW Bush's presidential campaign. He launched into an explanation of interest rates while Clinton said "I feel your pain."

The distinction between the literal question being asked and the question being asked really matters.

56. glitchc ◴[] No.42069073[source]
It's possible for the price of groceries to grow faster than the median wage. You can still have wage growth coupled with reduced affordability.
replies(1): >>42069104 #
57. _huayra_ ◴[] No.42069102[source]
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N

Notice the flat line after the pandemic? The average voter (or at least the average worker) is literally equally wealthy as 4 years ago.

Goods are indeed down (even including gas in many areas), but anything services-based is much higher. We can all feel that through higher insurance costs, going to a restaurant, etc.

replies(1): >>42069146 #
58. ajross ◴[] No.42069104{3}[source]
I really don't think the upthread comment was about "groceries" specifically, it was a claim that people are poorer. And they aren't.
replies(1): >>42072596 #
59. dlisboa ◴[] No.42069145{3}[source]
> Against a bounding rise in prices, [...], one can fight only under the slogan of a sliding scale of wages. This means that collective agreements should assure an automatic rise in wages in relation to the increase in price of consumer goods.

Leon Trotsky, 1938. [1]

Automatic rise in wages to counter inflation effects on ordinary people is literally a socialist plan. What they're asking for is socialism. Right-wing Americans (supposedly) hate socialism, at least when it benefits people other than themselves.

---

[1] - https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1938/tp/tp-text.htm...

replies(1): >>42069931 #
60. ajross ◴[] No.42069146{3}[source]
Did you link the wrong chart? The slope is clearly positive over the last four years. Ergo people are getting wealthier, on average, even accounting for inflation. If you want to make a point that "Trump won because of service economy price increases, whereas cheaper good and fuel didn't help Harris as much", that's a rather more complicated thing.

Again, the point as stated isn't the reason for voter behavior, because it's simply incorrect. Voters didn't vote because they're poorer, because they're not poorer. QED.

replies(3): >>42069388 #>>42069424 #>>42069539 #
61. phtrivier ◴[] No.42069181{4}[source]
In part, maybe. And at the very end of the list of proposal, after you've explained how you're going to fix the problem, you can, if you have time to spare, defend that you were not entirely responsible for the whole of the problem.

But, realize that any time you spend defending yourself is not spent explaining how you're going to fix the problem. It may be unfair, and that's one of the nicest aspect of democracy : given that people in power keep changing, at some point they don't feel bound to the choices made by previous governments, even of their own party, and can spend time trying to fix problems.

No chance of doing so if you start by arguing.

Also, some of the problems are _hard_.

replies(1): >>42070142 #
62. stingrae ◴[] No.42069186{4}[source]
that would lead to more inflation.
replies(2): >>42069251 #>>42069870 #
63. pk-protect-ai ◴[] No.42069188[source]
Why is there an assumption that Trump or reds in general will solve this issue? He was a president already, what exactly did he do to fix the situation? The system is built to segregate and separate people into classes efficiently, making the rich richer and the poor poorer. After all the one who has more resources at the start of the game will win. I'm curious who will be labeled as an enemy first to redirect Trump supporter's rage when situation will not improve itself?
64. ethbr1 ◴[] No.42069199{4}[source]
> How do you convey ideas to voters when the basis of the idea is feeling vs fact, outlier vs median?

That's the best description of what good politicians can do that I've ever heard.

65. earleybird ◴[] No.42069209{3}[source]
Claude for president 2028 :-)
replies(1): >>42075174 #
66. drawkward ◴[] No.42069223{4}[source]
>... The data says wages outpaced inflation

The data are aggregate measures. I have no doubt that for, say, the top 20% of earners, wages did outpace inflation. Maybe the next 30% were able to tread water. The bottom 50%, however, are likely on a sinking ship.

replies(2): >>42069530 #>>42075665 #
67. watwut ◴[] No.42069238[source]
Honesty does not win elections. Trump wom twice. It has squat zero to do with victory for honesty.
68. pasquinelli ◴[] No.42069244[source]
well, take your example: what is the politician doing to help me get a raise?
replies(8): >>42069456 #>>42069490 #>>42069564 #>>42069578 #>>42069689 #>>42069717 #>>42070539 #>>42071942 #
69. r2_pilot ◴[] No.42069251{5}[source]
Ok so then you change economic models away from capitalism, and towards a post-money economy. There are plenty of ways to do it, it merely requires the complete and total cooperation of everyone at once, or a sufficient transition period.
replies(1): >>42069447 #
70. jcgrillo ◴[] No.42069253{4}[source]
You don't need an administration to make it happen, just a tiny fraction of the electorate sufficiently organized and radicalized. Not advocating for that option, just pointing out that it is entirely a possibility.
71. ethbr1 ◴[] No.42069302{4}[source]
> If government goes into (more) debt and spends that money it increases inflation.

If that spending creates an imbalance of money vs goods.

The problem with the COVID recovery is that goods availability declined, and as a consequence the economy would have taken a nosedive via compounding effects.

Unfortunately, flooding the market with money (which all countries, not just the US did) masked the problem long enough for supply to renormalize... but in the process ballooned the numerator while the denominator was still temporarily low.

Of course that's going to cause price inflation.

And then when supply returns to normal, of course companies are going to try to retain that new margin as profit, instead of decreasing prices.

72. pk-protect-ai ◴[] No.42069304{4}[source]
You can't win this argument, you are using too many big words and lot of text. Dems should lie as reds to win the votes over... Right?
73. drawkward ◴[] No.42069388{4}[source]
It is far less positive than the general trend prior...
replies(1): >>42070093 #
74. brigade ◴[] No.42069417{4}[source]
If you want a verifiable large-scale example, the General Schedule has only increased by 12.5% cumulative in the last 4 years, compared to 22% CPI
75. ◴[] No.42069424{4}[source]
76. TimTheTinker ◴[] No.42069447{6}[source]
> complete and total cooperation of everyone at once, or a sufficient transition period

That is almost the definition of totalitarianism.

That's how hundreds of millions of people died (either by execution, war, work camps, or starvation[0]) as dictators pursued Marxist ideals during the 20th century.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism

replies(3): >>42069658 #>>42069773 #>>42069790 #
77. jcpham2 ◴[] No.42069454{5}[source]
If you were a taxpaying American he even sent you an unnecessary letter. I still have mine, my job was required or whatever so I never missed work or needed the stimulus I just invested it.

Prices aren’t coming down

78. andyferris ◴[] No.42069456{3}[source]
Policy can encourage wage growth, subsidies can be given out, and politicians could increase both the minimum wage and public sector wages whenever they choose.
79. smsm42 ◴[] No.42069480[source]
In fact, the response was much worse. It was like this:

Response 1: You are lying. The groceries in my local Whole Foods are still very affordable to me. Stop spreading misinformation and conspiracy theories.

Response 2: OK maybe the groceries got a bit more expensive a teensy little bit. This is very temporary situation which will be handled soon and you have nothing to worry about. Just stop whining and expect everything be fine sooner than you know.

Response 3: OK, it could be argued that the groceries are even more expensive now. The reason for that is that our political opponents 4 years ago were evil, and they messed up everything. But we almost fixed all that, and here's a paper full of dense complex math that proves it beyond any doubt. Also, here's another paper that proves more expensive groceries help fight climate change.

Response 4: Stop talking about the damn groceries already. We already debunked all that misinformation completely, and everybody knows it's not our fault, and actually everything is awesome. Don't you realize the other guy is literally Hitler?!

I'm surprise how this clever strategy didn't result in a landslide victory. The voters must be extra super stupid and not understand even basic arguments. Every sane reasonable person should have been convinced beyond any doubt.

replies(1): >>42069782 #
80. smsm42 ◴[] No.42069490{3}[source]
Lower taxes.
81. nathias ◴[] No.42069507[source]
how did COVID create new money supply?
replies(1): >>42069566 #
82. TimTheTinker ◴[] No.42069521{3}[source]
how about an alternative:

Position 3: Introduce policies that stimulate domestic production and decrease foreign competition. This will lower prices without forcing domestic producers out of business.

replies(2): >>42070193 #>>42072028 #
83. supportengineer ◴[] No.42069530{5}[source]
Why does the richest country in the history of the world allow 50% of its workers to be on a sinking ship?

That is the question

replies(3): >>42070109 #>>42070356 #>>42071318 #
84. _huayra_ ◴[] No.42069539{4}[source]
Oh wow $50 annually since 2020, sorry I didn't realize, but now I see when I zoomed in.

They're not poorer. They're exactly one used Xbox richer.

I agree that it's more complicated why Trump won than just the economy, but to say "people are getting wealthier" when

a) it's an extremely paltry rate compared to the prior 4 years and

b) people have had to readjust their "basket of goods" to buy different things because certain non-negotiable things (e.g. cars, car insurance, other insurance, utilities in a lot of unregulated states, property taxes outside of places with Prop 13 / homestead exemption, etc) have gone up significantly, putting a squeeze on disposable income.

I guess we're arguing semantics here, but I agree that a lot of voter decision on this is more complicated than real income. I just disagree that $50 / year increase is meaningful enough to have people not feel left behind. That is about 12 bps a year, and I know that if my raise were 12 bps, I'd feel like why bother at all / insulted. If I were a moron, I would blame the current president, but I'm not naive enough to think that it's Biden's fault.

85. jcadam ◴[] No.42069562[source]
A raise would be nice, I'm making exactly what I made in 2021. Wage growth for software engineers is stagnant because demand for senior software engineers has fallen off a cliff the last few years.
replies(2): >>42075896 #>>42087994 #
86. a123b456c ◴[] No.42069564{3}[source]
Maybe tie the minimum wage to inflation?
87. smsm42 ◴[] No.42069566{3}[source]
COVID didn't, people that distributed $5 trillion during COVID time did.
88. tunesmith ◴[] No.42069578{3}[source]
The easiest answer is focusing on policies that encourage low unemployment, which theoretically increases job mobility and wage growth.

Dems did that on the surface, but unfortunately unemployment is very distorted by inequality.

Sort of related to trade policy in that way I think. More trade is good but not if it isn't paired with ways to keep inequality from running amok.

89. losvedir ◴[] No.42069595{4}[source]
I'll never understand this "corporate greed" theory of inflation. Are corporations not usually trying to maximize profits? Are prices not normally as high as the market will bear? The interesting question is not "did they?" but "why were they able to?". What's different now, that nothing kept it in check?

I think you're getting at it with that last chart (though, note: It's top 0.1%, not 0.01%). The last few years has been a story of the haves (with wealth in the stock market) who got richer and the have nots who got decimated by inflation. In other words, corporations were able to raise prices because a lot of people got richer and had more money to spend.

replies(1): >>42070107 #
90. ethbr1 ◴[] No.42069598{3}[source]
One could also argue it was also in indebted government's best interests, as in the intermediate term it effectively decreased their debt loan (by devaluing the actual dollars it's denominated in).
91. IOT_Apprentice ◴[] No.42069614{3}[source]
Because corporations like Walmart and various suppliers decided they could get away with increasing their prices and they blamed it on inflation. Thee isn’t federal law monitoring this.

Employers won’t give raises to match cost of living in those situations.

92. tunesmith ◴[] No.42069648{4}[source]
I think average and even median aren't the right way to look at this. In an atmosphere where both inflation and wages shot up and then came back down, it's the variance that kills you. Compared to a steady 2-3% growth with low variance, the raw number of people who experienced distressing adjustments, with some people profiting and others losing, is a big deal.
93. r2_pilot ◴[] No.42069658{7}[source]
Oh, I'm so glad you brought that up! Considering your own sources, seems like that work of scholarship may have not been an entirely impartial view. Particularly, from your own wiki link, >Margolin and Werth felt that Courtois was "obsessed" with arriving at a total of 100 million killed, which resulted in "sloppy and biased scholarship",[38] faulted him for exaggerating death tolls in specific countries,[6][39]: 194 [40]: 123

I appreciate your deep dive into these scholastic studies. I always appreciate learning new things.

replies(1): >>42069817 #
94. raddan ◴[] No.42069674{5}[source]
Sanders correctly identifies the problem most of the time, and I mostly even agree with his solutions. However, he is one of the least effective legislators in the entire senate.

https://thelawmakers.org/find-representatives

Winning, as we have recently and very painfully seen AGAIN, depends on building coalitions. It does not help that Bernie is not a Democrat. You could argue that he should be considered a Democrat for the sake of party self-preservation, but he literally is not one. My opinion is that his unwillingness to declare himself a Democrat is a reflection of his inability to find and muster support for his causes. Hard pass.

95. cyberax ◴[] No.42069689{3}[source]
Increase the minimum wage, strengthen the overtime rules, etc.
96. AnotherGoodName ◴[] No.42069717{3}[source]
Honestly at this point we start getting into a long discussion such as benefits of unionisation and why we should support it alongside collective bargaining and the fact that rising the minimum wage floor raises wages of other low paying jobs.

At some point though I’m throwing academic sources to the voter at which point I’ve probably lost the discourse because it’s hard to reason about.

The reality is I don’t do any of the above. I’m not even interested in debating the point anymore. People don’t want to hear long winded academic discourse on the best economic approaches to anything.

I’ve bluntly completely lost faith in American democracy. The candidate with the biggest budget has won consistently and the biggest budget comes mostly from corporate donations via PACs.

replies(3): >>42070182 #>>42070287 #>>42070706 #
97. timssopomo ◴[] No.42069756{4}[source]
Wages in aggregate outpaced inflation in aggregate. That's not necessarily going to make it feel like your living situation has improved, especially if your consumption patterns don't perfectly match the CPI model and if you're financing major purchases. Compared to 2020, rent indices are up 30%, houses are up 50% (in value, not monthly payment - that's worse), used cars are up 30% currently but peaked at 40%. Groceries are up 26%. Costs of borrowing have skyrocketed across the board, and Americans live on financing.

If Americans own stock at all (38% don't), the majority of it is in retirement accounts.

Last year, the median income was still below 2019: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N

98. ◴[] No.42069773{7}[source]
99. oersted ◴[] No.42069782[source]
I like how you framed it, I’d like to hear your interpretation of Trumps response in a similar style.

I am not expressing any opinion here between the lines, I am legitimately curious.

replies(1): >>42069959 #
100. daveguy ◴[] No.42069790{7}[source]
Well, we did just elect a totalitarian so that's good, right?
replies(1): >>42081445 #
101. siffin ◴[] No.42069797[source]
Republicans just voted down plenty of bills that would have raised the minimum wage in a few states, so I don't think you understand how incompetent republican voters are.
102. TimTheTinker ◴[] No.42069817{8}[source]
You may disagree with that particular source, but your remark glosses over the grim reality: a heck of a lot of people died under socialism, more than the entire body count arising from World War 2.

When an idea has resulted in the deaths of a significant portion of the world's population at the time, it's healthy to regard it (and similar ideas) with a bit of skepticism.

replies(1): >>42070037 #
103. viridian ◴[] No.42069821{4}[source]
You really do need to adapt your message to your audience. If I'm explaining tech issues to my mom or in-laws, I over-simplify and analogize. If I'm talking to a team member, I'm direct, and specific. If I'm talking to management, the applicable buzzwords and narrative building towards organizational goals get high priority.
replies(1): >>42070040 #
104. ◴[] No.42069833[source]
105. tayo42 ◴[] No.42069858{3}[source]
What was the solution trump and repoublicans provided? Were just all going to get screwed even worse now
106. gitremote ◴[] No.42069870{5}[source]
People talk about "inflation" and the "economy", but it's a proxy for what they really care about, not being able to afford groceries. Universal basic income address the real problem.
replies(1): >>42074788 #
107. lazyeye ◴[] No.42069882{4}[source]
*Shrugs* I think they have a much better understanding of the realities of their own lives than the clueless fools in Silicon Valley.
replies(1): >>42070306 #
108. holbrad ◴[] No.42069931{4}[source]
Do we not see the obvious cyclical death spiral such a policy could cause ?
replies(3): >>42070071 #>>42071099 #>>42076069 #
109. chipdart ◴[] No.42069943{3}[source]
> Still refusing to listen to us plebeians. I can't afford groceries. I'm not looking for a scholar-bureaucrat reframe of my problem. I'm looking for a solution.

What solution do you expect from Trump?

replies(1): >>42072307 #
110. smsm42 ◴[] No.42069959{3}[source]
Trump promised to make the economy better. Is he able to do that remains to be seen, but his message was pretty clear, and he did have some success before COVID in that regard. Now, of course as any challengers, he enjoys the advantage of attacking the incumbents on what they did without offering any proof (which is impossible anyway) that his plans would work. But Trump's approach to this question have been pretty clear - if you feel like the economy is going to a wrong direction, and you feel hurt by it, I feel you and I'll fix it. Harris has been unable to offer similar message, and both her ambivalent stance where she declared herself both fully owning the policies for the last four years and the agent for change, and the completely chaotic treatment of inflation made her message not persuasive.
replies(2): >>42071708 #>>42071714 #
111. math_dandy ◴[] No.42069964[source]
I totally get why people are infuriated by rationalizations like "inflation rates are now good". Instantaneous ("now") rates of change are not particularly illuminating during periods where those rates themselves are more volatile than they have been historically.

It makes sense (to me) to average inflation over the four year electoral period. The average inflation over the Biden years 2021-2024 was 5.3%, versus 1.9% over the Trump years 2017-2020 [1]. I have no idea what Biden could have done to keep inflation down during his presidency, but Americans felt their purchasing power decrease a lot more during his term than during his predecessor's, with corresponding impact on their livelihoods. They have every right to be pissed off. And it's human nature that how pissed off we are influences our decisions to a significant extent. Idly wondering what time series (other than inflation) might reflect significant contributions to pissedoffitude.

[1] https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/current-infl...

112. crazygringo ◴[] No.42069998{3}[source]
> I'm looking for a solution.

But what does a solution look like to you?

Do you want prices to deflate? That's terrible for many reasons.

Do you want regular responsible economic management? That was Harris. Inflation is back to normal now.

Or do you want a president who wants a huge tariff on everything that will result in crazy much larger inflation than we've had in decades? That's Trump.

How is Harris not listening? How is Trump listening better?

replies(2): >>42070361 #>>42072300 #
113. r2_pilot ◴[] No.42070037{9}[source]
>You may disagree with that particular source, but your remark glosses over the grim reality: a heck of a lot of people died under socialism, more than the entire body count arising from World War 2.

I'm specifically trying to avoid the whole "no true Scottsman" argument by saying these aren't necessarily examples of how an actually functional communism economy would be, but I do wish you could be consistent with your terminology as socialism and communism are distinctly different ideas. I'd also like to emphasize the mild sarcasm when I used words such as "merely" and "complete and total cooperation",to close out this conversation which I have little more to contribute to.

replies(1): >>42070139 #
114. hackyhacky ◴[] No.42070040{5}[source]
Exactly. Nerds (like me) appreciate complex explanations from politicians, but if a politician tries to explain causes of inflation or the subtleties of diplomacy to an average voter, it will be perceived as digressive and unnecessarily confusing.
115. dlisboa ◴[] No.42070071{5}[source]
That is definitely the opposing argument. Trotsky certainly realizes that it would mean the death of capitalism, which is the whole point of his socialist revolution. He's not really looking to maintain the status quo.

I was just pointing out that most right wing Americans don't realize many of their demands and reservations to their current economic climate are straight out of a socialist handbook. Political education is at an all-time low worldwide.

replies(1): >>42070601 #
116. ajross ◴[] No.42070093{5}[source]
Only a little, and there are plenty of actual downturns and flat spots on that chart that didn't cause voter realignment. Again, all I can say is that this argument as framed is simply wrong. Voters weren't angry because they were poorer, period.
117. tfehring ◴[] No.42070107{5}[source]
I'm a data scientist, and my impression is that the growth of data science as a profession over the last ~decade has enabled companies to price more efficiently than they used to. That in turn was enabled by technical improvements like cheaper storage and compute and commoditized data infrastructure. I don't have a strong opinion on how much of the inflation this explains, but directionally I'm very confident that companies have gotten significantly more efficient at pricing over that time period, and pretty confident that that would lead to price increases for a lot of businesses.

Supply chain and price shocks during COVID probably accelerated this trend quite a bit - McDonald's would have eventually figured out that the profit-maximizing price of a burger is closer to $4 than $1, but COVID shocks gave it license to raise prices much faster. The good news is that I think of this largely as a one-time shock: once companies have perfectly set profit-maximizing prices, there's no room for more price-optimization-driven inflation, except to the extent that consumers get richer or less price-sensitive over time.

Quoting Matt Levine, "a good unified theory of modern society’s anxieties might be 'everything is too efficient and it’s exhausting.'"

118. drawkward ◴[] No.42070109{6}[source]
Because it was bought by billionaires.
replies(1): >>42070950 #
119. TimTheTinker ◴[] No.42070139{10}[source]
Sounds like this is academic to you; it's visceral to me.

"If only every single person would..." is not how you create policy where people are actually free.

replies(1): >>42070345 #
120. chipdart ◴[] No.42070142{5}[source]
> In part, maybe. And at the very end of the list of proposal, (...)

Not in part.

And now you voted on the guy whose only concrete economic policy is to massively drive up inflation by imposing tariffs.

replies(1): >>42070480 #
121. caethan ◴[] No.42070182{4}[source]
Harris significantly outspent Trump, particularly in key swing states.
122. Qworg ◴[] No.42070193{4}[source]
Why would this lower prices?
replies(1): >>42070667 #
123. lukas099 ◴[] No.42070246{3}[source]
Well, we don’t want prices to go down. That would be deflation, which is worse than inflation.
replies(1): >>42075458 #
124. jandrese ◴[] No.42070287{4}[source]
The Harris campaign spent more money directly, but the GOP had quite a lot more 527 funding. This is typical of modern elections.
125. drawkward ◴[] No.42070306{5}[source]
I completely agree, which is why I have been arguing all along that it is the disconnect between that lived reality and the way Democrats have been messaging that got in Harris' way.
replies(1): >>42071669 #
126. jandrese ◴[] No.42070323{3}[source]
Certainly Trump will reduce our grocery prices. He has a plan to introduce a lot of tariffs to accomplish this.
replies(1): >>42072208 #
127. r2_pilot ◴[] No.42070345{11}[source]
I must have missed the part where, at birth, I signed the social contract saying that I approve of the governance and monetary policy. That, or I'm not free.
replies(1): >>42071857 #
128. WalterSear ◴[] No.42070356{6}[source]
Because it's foundational social contracts rely too heavily on the Fundamental Attribution Error.
129. slaw ◴[] No.42070361{4}[source]
I want prices to deflate and it is not terrible.
replies(1): >>42071664 #
130. sfblah ◴[] No.42070434[source]
Wait till the average voter figures out that they've actually hidden massive inflation in capital assets. Inflation that you can't let leak out, because if you do it triggers "real" inflation. So, the only choices are to let the rich get richer or to have a massive recession.
131. phtrivier ◴[] No.42070480{6}[source]
I've read conflicting opinions about the effect of Trump trade wars (pre COVID), how the pandemic was handled pre Biden, and how the pandemic was handled post Biden, on inflation.

I much doubt economits would seriously put 100% of the blame on any particular side.

Hence the "in part". Which, I repeat, is a way to acknowledge the complexity, and move on to the interesting question : whether it's your fault or not, what are you going to do to _fix the problem_.

Next election is in two years, and I suspect neither housing prices nor groceries are going to fall any time soon - so policy proposals are not going to waste.

132. fuzzfactor ◴[] No.42070539{3}[source]
>you need a raise. Here's how I'm helping you get one.

Said no politician ever, even the most union-supporting :0

133. burningChrome ◴[] No.42070558{4}[source]
>> There isn't a way to fix it and they actually aren't responsible.

"Google, how do you fix inflation?"

We know inflation is the consequence of many factors, but it can be controlled by different entities at each stage. The two groups most instrumental in the fight against inflation are The Federal Reserve and the government.

The Fed using interest rate increases to make lending and investing more expensive is an example of monetary policy.

The Fed misread warnings in the spring of 2021 when it was clear to some that inflation was spreading. The Fed argued that inflation would be transitory and that it resulted from unusual circumstances, ranging from supply chain issues related to the abnormal demand that came from the end of the pandemic.

The government can use fiscal policy to fix inflation by increasing taxes or cutting spending. Increasing taxes leads to decreased individual demand and a reduction in the supply of money in the economy. As you can imagine, fiscal policy isn’t very popular because raising taxes is a difficult political move. The last thing that we want to hear when inflation is rising is that our taxes will also increase.

The government could use other fiscal policies to lower inflationary pressures. If Congress were to limit pandemic relief spending and focus on not making the deficit worse, that would assist in reducing inflation.

So no, there absolutely is ways to fix it and they 100% were responsible for it. The problem is when you constantly act like there isn't a problem, by the time they realized they had to fix it? It meant the cure is going to be worse than the disease - usually in the form of either cooling off the economy with interest rate hikes, or pushing the economy into a recession or increasing taxes or gasp cutting spending.

This is not graduate level economics we're talking here - its pretty common knowledge stuff. But if you say Biden wasn't responsible for the inflation on his watch, then by your logic you would have to excuse every president who had a poor economy because "its not their fault" and "there's no way to fix it."

Unfortunately, most people (like myself) know that's a load of poppycock and voted accordingly.

replies(1): >>42072835 #
134. achierius ◴[] No.42070601{6}[source]
There are people who would argue that your opposition to such policies (simply because they are part of the socialist playbook) is itself an uneducated position. It's certainly possible to go round and round calling each other uneducated because of diverging opinions on various labels, but I don't think it's a very helpful approach to take.
replies(1): >>42071040 #
135. TimTheTinker ◴[] No.42070667{5}[source]
Absent other changes in variables, increasing supply generally leads to lower prices.
replies(1): >>42070809 #
136. eep_social ◴[] No.42070706{4}[source]
> we start getting into a long discussion

I view this as the major contributing cause to the current situation. The cyclic dependencies among issues that need attention mean that explaining a fix simply and truthfully is no longer possible. In the current system, a simple explanation is a prerequisite for winning the votes to implement anything. Parties acting in good faith don’t stand a chance.

> completely lost faith in American democracy

Exactly. It doesn’t function without intangibles like “good faith” or “norms” which have been discarded.

137. Qworg ◴[] No.42070809{6}[source]
Why would it increase supply? You've reduced international supply in exchange for increasing domestic supply.

Promoting internal business isn't a sure thing - particularly when tariffs reduce competitive pressures.

replies(1): >>42086368 #
138. rqtwteye ◴[] No.42070944[source]
What the average voter hears: we take credit for all positive things and everything negative was out of our control.
139. gitremote ◴[] No.42070948[source]
> Someone, a mix of media and republican candidates and social media figures, convinced people they couldn't afford groceries. They didn't arrive at that conclusion organically.

This is a wild take that sounds it's coming from an affluent tech worker. I'm politically left, and I don't know if this is parody to make liberals look out of touch.

Tech salaries went up, but people working minimum wage can't afford groceries. Federal minimum wage was increased to $7.25/hour in 2009, 15 years ago.

Medians don't tell the full story, because of the K-shaped recovery graph. The upper half gained wealth but the lower half lost wealth.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/04/the-covid-recovery-still-has...

replies(1): >>42072343 #
140. fuzzfactor ◴[] No.42070950{7}[source]
Not just billionaires so much as multi-billion-dollar corporations that are too big not to be stronger than (indebted) government and control politicians.

It's been a while but lots of the real gems (precious metals too) have already been sold for a profit so there's not as much upside as there was traditionally.

Without hard-asset inflation, the dollar could turn out to be one of their least-performing assets, and you know they can't have that.

141. fuzzfactor ◴[] No.42071005{4}[source]
>How do you convey ideas to voters when the basis of the idea is feeling vs fact, outlier vs median?

It would probably be best with deep empathy from the heart, which seems to be in extremely short supply from some camps, and nothing else seems to be working.

142. dlisboa ◴[] No.42071040{7}[source]
I’m not arguing for or against those policies. My comment is about how most anti-socialists don’t know what socialism is or what their policies entail. If shown many socialist ideas without saying where they’re from they’d support them and would not connect them to socialism at all. That is indeed a symptom of lack of political education. You see it everywhere, it’s not a uniquely American issue.
143. hackyhacky ◴[] No.42071090{3}[source]
I'm not sure there's a better approach for an incumbent administration. The alternative would have been, "Inflation is bad, but we're going to fix it if you elect us," which to the average voter raises the question: "Why not just fix it now?"
replies(1): >>42077335 #
144. fuzzfactor ◴[] No.42071099{5}[source]
>Do we not see the obvious cyclical death spiral such a policy could cause ?

Naturally, as the prices of consumer items spirals downward, followed proportionally by decline in equivalent buying power of the wages, non-consumables like cars and homes remain within reach for fewer of the accomplished workers, and primarily only those who could be considered affluent beforehand.

Leaving everyone who is non-affluent further from prosperity even though they can still afford almost the same amount of cheap consumer items after all.

Almost.

This is by design.

The 1938 guideline was a good starting point for those who want to calculate the tolerance for the differential that could be extracted, and whether or not it would be expected to lead to revolution or something.

>straight out of a socialist handbook.

And then there's the worst-case scenario :\

145. KiwiJohnno ◴[] No.42071318{6}[source]
And the (simplistic) answer is because many of those 50% vote Republican, because the Republicans say they will fix things and yet always make things worse for the bottom 50%
146. throwaway48476 ◴[] No.42071410{5}[source]
Ag is waiting to wages to rise for investment in automation to become profitable.
147. dboreham ◴[] No.42071647{3}[source]
This is cool. Explains also Boris Johnston. Similar to the finding that people believe text more if it's in a larger font.
148. dboreham ◴[] No.42071664{5}[source]
Deflation is known to be bad. Much worse than inflation.
replies(2): >>42072322 #>>42073024 #
149. Aeolun ◴[] No.42071669{6}[source]
Trump has a lot of faults, but it’s not that he can’t keep his messaging at a level even the most uneducated of voters can understand.
replies(2): >>42081422 #>>42081460 #
150. dboreham ◴[] No.42071708{4}[source]
Trump's "success" before 2020 was due to him intimidating the Fed into not ending QE.
151. Aeolun ◴[] No.42071714{4}[source]
I think the big issue is that Harris knows she’s making empty promises and doesn’t like to do that. She also know that the problems were in fact caused by the policies made 4 years ago.

Trump knows he’s making empty promises but doesn’t give a shit as long as it wins him the presidency, he’ll wing it all later, and people won’t remember that he didn’t keep his promises because they only care that he said he would try.

It was something about people remembering how you made them feel, instead of exactly what you did.

replies(2): >>42074835 #>>42079850 #
152. dboreham ◴[] No.42071725[source]
In theory Trump could bring down the price of groceries by threatening to put the Kroger CEO in prison, etc.
153. Lord-Jobo ◴[] No.42071806{4}[source]
But I mean what else could she do? You tell the electorate the truth and they don't understand it or don't listen, you lie and say "fine we will fix it with price controls" and they freak out all the same. Only one side of the political apparatus can like with impunity, apparently.
154. TimTheTinker ◴[] No.42071857{12}[source]
You're still free to leave, unlike citizens under socialism.

(Seriously, have you read about all the escape attempts over the Berlin Wall?)

replies(1): >>42075322 #
155. marcosdumay ◴[] No.42071942{3}[source]
I don't really know the details of the US election. But two things that I know are that Kamala couldn't be pro-union, what sucks for her, and Trump spent a really huge amount of time talking about ways to increase people's salaries that can't possibly work, but were actual proposals he made.
156. infinite8s ◴[] No.42072028{4}[source]
This position underlies Trump's tariffs promise.
157. bagels ◴[] No.42072208{4}[source]
Please explain to us all how tariffs will reduce grocery prices.
replies(2): >>42072751 #>>42073239 #
158. amanaplanacanal ◴[] No.42072262{4}[source]
Biden's what policy now? Republicans claim he "opened the border", but I haven't seen any evidence of it.
replies(1): >>42073402 #
159. dekhn ◴[] No.42072291[source]
I always interpret these things in the context which sent Leona Helmsley to jail: "only little people pay taxes".

People heard her say that and were outraged. What's funny is that when you think about it, it actually does make sense although it's pejorative.

Rich people don't pay taxes. They invest their money, which is incentivized by the government in the form of lower/different taxation. Similarly they use experienced lawyers who understand the tax code to structure their wealth in ways that allow them to pay lower taxes. And the term little people, while pejorative, really represents the power differential between people like her husband and the "Average Joe". Trump is not little people, but he's somehow managed to express things in ways that "little" people (using Leona's terminology, not my own) like.

Much of politics is about not directly saying the truth, whether it be ugly, undesired, or complicated. Instead it's about understanding what drives voters (higher out of pocket prices uncoupled from concomitant wage increases) and how to say the thing they want to hear, while also enacting policies that achieve your political goals.

replies(1): >>42074803 #
160. nradov ◴[] No.42072300{4}[source]
There are zero actual reasons to think that food price deflation would be terrible. You can look back through decades of consumer price history and find many cases where at least certain foodstuffs got cheaper. It wasn't a problem.

The US President has little power to lower food prices anyway though, so this discussion is kind of moot.

161. dekhn ◴[] No.42072307{4}[source]
I think most people who are poor who voted for Trump expect him to eliminate unnecessary rent-seekers while also putting up barriers to free trade, thus increasing domestic spending, which (waves hands) leads to lower prices.
replies(1): >>42074139 #
162. slaw ◴[] No.42072322{6}[source]
Vehicles become cheaper this this year and nothing wrong happened. If groceries and housing would become cheaper also nothing wrong would happen.
163. ajross ◴[] No.42072343{3}[source]
The article you link is from April 2021, before the inflation burst and the subsequent recovery. You're not seriously saying that people are voting against economic conditions that prevailed three months into the Biden presidency?

Again, this idea is just wrong! And I hear it from people on, as you point out, both the left and the right. And it's wrong, as a simple matter of data! Something terrible happened with messaging this cycle.

replies(1): >>42072939 #
164. glitchc ◴[] No.42072596{4}[source]
Groceries are simply an example. There's a metric called the PPP: Purchasing Power Parity. It is possible in a short period of high inflation for goods and services to outpace wage growth. So, despite wage gains, the PPP of the median American may be lower in 2024 compared to 2019. People are going to feel that as an affordability crunch.
replies(1): >>42072792 #
165. jandrese ◴[] No.42072751{5}[source]
Ask Trump, it is his promise.
166. ajross ◴[] No.42072792{5}[source]
> It is possible in a short period of high inflation for goods and services to outpace wage growth.

It is possible. But it hasn't happened! That's what I'm trying to point out in this weird subthread. People (on both sides of the candidate divide!) believe something that ssimply isn't true. And not in a subjective "mostly untrue" sense. It's a question with numbers and the numbers say the opposite of what you believe.

167. michaelmrose ◴[] No.42072835{5}[source]
Are you arguing that they should have either raised taxes or introduced austerity measures as the recovery was just beginning because Google told you it would have helped?

It would not have undone prior inflation and it could have strangled the recovery in the crib. It wouldn't do anything about price gouging either and it would certainly have turned America against Biden and Harris. Its just a grab bag of bad ideas.

Also your preferred candidate has said he is going to drastically increase prices with massive tarriffs. This isn't strictly inflation but the effect on your wallet will be the same.

I would talk to actual economists instead of Google.

replies(1): >>42078337 #
168. gitremote ◴[] No.42072939{4}[source]
The discovery of not being able to afford groceries is organic and real. The attribution of it to Biden is organic but mistaken. Regular people confuse correlation with causation.

You are projecting your data-driven decision making to regular people who don't do that. Depending on how neurodivergent you are, you will eventually learn that you can't model how typical people think based on how you think. People aren't looking at hard numbers. People try to find patterns in what they experience.

169. UncleOxidant ◴[] No.42073024{6}[source]
Only if the deflation gets out of control. We could probably use some housing price deflation. But we'd only get it if we had a pretty serious economic downturn - that's the tradeoff.
170. themaninthedark ◴[] No.42073239{5}[source]
Trump stated his plan to lower food cost was to lower the cost of the energy inputs that he says are driving up the food costs; lower diesel cost for farmers and transportation and lower energy cost for fertilizer production.

If this will work or not, no idea. But it did play as a better soundbite than "I will hold the grocery stores who are price gouging you accountable for it" because that soundbite says "We have been letting them get away with charging you for 3 years and now that we have an election to win we promise to do something about it".

replies(2): >>42073719 #>>42077215 #
171. themaninthedark ◴[] No.42073402{5}[source]
https://www.voanews.com/a/usa_biden-signs-executive-orders-r...

>Biden’s immediate focus is on the 3,100-kilometer southern border with Mexico, where Trump tried to keep thousands of migrants from Mexico, Honduras, El Salvador and Guatemala from entering the U.S.

https://nypost.com/2021/02/02/biden-signs-3-executive-orders... >Mayorkas assured senators at a confirmation hearing last month that a plan to end the Trump-brokered “Remain in Mexico” policy requiring Central Americans to await an asylum decision in Mexico won’t necessarily happen immediately. He urged people not to rush to the border hoping for more favorable treatment.

... A few moments later.....

https://nypost.com/2024/03/22/us-news/monthly-record-for-feb... >The nation’s besieged southern border set a record for February(2024) migrant encounters with 189,922 attempted crossings as officials brace for an expected spring surge, according to new Customs and Border Patrol data. >The figure eclipses the prior February record of 166,010 encounters, set in 2022 and 156,000 during the same month last year(2023).

172. bagels ◴[] No.42073719{6}[source]
Lowering input costs could actually achieve something, thanks.
173. chipdart ◴[] No.42074139{5}[source]
> think most people who are poor who voted for Trump expect him to eliminate unnecessary rent-seekers (...)

You mean people vote for a slum lord who is lauded by billionaires expecting and who funelled Whitehouse budget to his own hotels expecting him to eliminate rent-seekers?

> (...) while also putting up barriers to free trade, thus increasing domestic spending (...)

You mean the same guy who sold them cheap made in China golden sneakers for a small fortune, and bragged he got all his loans from Russia?

This train of thought defies any and all reasoning.

replies(1): >>42077881 #
174. valval ◴[] No.42074788{6}[source]
Redistributing wealth doesn’t seem like a good or moral solution for anything.
175. valval ◴[] No.42074803[source]
Rich people pay way more taxes than poor people. The top income earners pay for everything in this country and all the other countries.
replies(2): >>42076651 #>>42077976 #
176. valval ◴[] No.42074835{5}[source]
Yes, your hypothesis of “my guy is less evil than your guy and you’re immoral and dumb for voting for your guy” is plausible and interesting.
177. cutemonster ◴[] No.42075174{4}[source]
It didn't say Drill, baby, drill?
178. disgruntledphd2 ◴[] No.42075322{13}[source]
Ah yes, the Great Wall of Norway is noted for it's troops and shootings of anyone looking for some winter sun.
replies(1): >>42075940 #
179. disgruntledphd2 ◴[] No.42075458{4}[source]
So how come the massive deflation in goods over the last fifty years didn't destroy the world economy?
replies(1): >>42120412 #
180. tyingq ◴[] No.42075665{5}[source]
The obvious example being minimum wage earners.
181. nar001 ◴[] No.42075896{3}[source]
Even if you change jobs? I thought it was common to leave your job for a better paying one in software engineering
replies(1): >>42082035 #
182. TimTheTinker ◴[] No.42075940{14}[source]
Not sure what Norway has to do with East Germany. Very antithetical governments.
replies(1): >>42076477 #
183. plumarr ◴[] No.42076069{5}[source]
For information, it's done in Belgium and there is no spiral of death : https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/inflation-of-consumer-pri...
184. disgruntledphd2 ◴[] No.42076477{15}[source]
It was the mismatch between Communism (typically totalitarian) and socialism (generally somewhat market based) that I was calling out.
replies(1): >>42077837 #
185. bdavisx ◴[] No.42076651{3}[source]
>Rich people pay way more taxes than poor people.

Not as a percentage of their income, especially when all "taxes" (anything the government charges for) are taken into account.

replies(1): >>42078509 #
186. ConspiracyFact ◴[] No.42077215{6}[source]
This gets close to the heart of why many seemingly reasonable people support Trump. He gives specifics. The specifics may be of a hare-brained scheme that can’t possibly work, but no other politician even goes that far.
replies(1): >>42088063 #
187. DecoySalamander ◴[] No.42077335{4}[source]
One option would be to reply with "out plans are measured in centuries, keep electing us and things will get better, eventually". But this would probably require to have such plans.
replies(1): >>42079371 #
188. TimTheTinker ◴[] No.42077837{16}[source]
Understood. I think those terms are so easily confused.

Philosophically, communism is the goal of Marxist theory -- where no ruling class even exists, ownership of the means of production doesn't exist, and everyone shares everything.

Socialism as a form of government (and not socialist economic policy within a republic or democracy) is an intentional, totalitarian stepping stone to that theoretical end goal. When I said "socialism" I meant these totalitarian governments and not anything that exists in northern Europe today. The communist parties of the "communist" (but really socialist) nations of the 20th century promised that the socialist totalitarianism was a stepping-stone and that it would be temporary until true communism was achieved (which has only ever actually occurred in small religious communities like monasteries, and which are often subsidized from the outside anyway). Those promises of temporary totalitarianism were part of how the dictators gained power.

What we call "socialist" economic policy (like the nationalized services in many European nations today) is an entirely separate and mostly unrelated issue (to me at least). I think many Americans' concern here is not a fear of totalitarianism (at least not as an immediate consequence), but that the more things are nationalized, the less freedom people have to choose where their money goes, and the less efficient the economy becomes -- but that's all entirely distinct from and unrelated to the evils of Mao, Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc.

The only modern, truly "socialist" nation I know of is North Korea.

replies(1): >>42085809 #
189. dekhn ◴[] No.42077881{6}[source]
I don't think getting so emotionally charged about these things is a useful approach. Personally, I'm glad to have a good understanding of what made so many people vote this way (even if I very strongly disagree with their fundamental approach and philosophy and behavior).
190. dekhn ◴[] No.42077976{3}[source]
obviously percentage, not absolute amount.
191. burningChrome ◴[] No.42078337{6}[source]
>> Are you arguing that they should have either raised taxes or introduced austerity measures as the recovery was just beginning because Google told you it would have helped?

My point was that even a search engine AI will tell you there's way to fix it because your entire premise is that it wasn't fixable and therefore, not the admins fault. Clearly not the case on either point.

>> It would not have undone prior inflation and it could have strangled the recovery in the crib.

Dude, where are you getting this? Inflation was 1.4% when he took office.

Biden’s claim that the inflation rate was 9% when he became president is not close to true. The year-over-year inflation rate in January 2021, the month of his inauguration, was about 1.4%. The Biden-era inflation rate did peak at about 9.1% – but that peak occurred in June 2022, after Biden had been president for more than 16 months. The March 2024 inflation rate, the most recent available rate at the time Biden made these comments, was about 3.5%, up from about 3.2% the month prior.

This was from a CNN fact check: https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/14/politics/fact-check-biden-inf...

>> It wouldn't do anything about price gouging.

This is a myth. Harris was proposing using Carter era price controls to try and go after "price gouging". Not sure how old you are, but guess what happened when Carter tried that in the 1970's? It lasted less than 2 years before Carter compromised with Congress on a “windfall profits tax” proposal.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2006/may/15/20060515-12...

The price controls resulted in a fuel-rationing system that made available about 5 percent less oil than was consumed before the controls. Consumers scrambled and sat in lines to ensure they weren’t left without. Gas stations found they only had to stay open a few hours a day to empty out their tanks. Because they could not raise prices, they closed down after selling out their gas to hold down their labor and operating costs, Mr. Sowell said.

When you use price controls, you get less of what you want, not more. This creates what we've already seen in the 1970's as noted above.

This also happened with Bruce Springsteen and how he was pricing his tickets:

Springsteen used to sell tickets to his concerts for very low prices because he wanted ordinary working men and women to be able to afford them. What actually happened: Ticket resellers bought up all the tickets. So a ticket with a face value of $30 went for $100, except $70 of that went to a third party. At some point it occurred to Springsteen that if tickets to his shows were selling for $100, it didn’t make a lot of sense for $70 of that to go to a middleman who not only didn’t write “Born to Run,” he didn’t even write “Workin’ on a Dream.” Years ago, Springsteen dropped his “friend of the working man” pricing policy, which is why the last time I went to one of his concerts the face value of the ticket was $350. Is Springsteen guilty of “price gouging” for denying ticket resellers the opportunity to make gigantic profits from his work and artistry? Were those resellers guilty of “price gouging” for selling those tickets for what people were willing to pay?

>> Also your preferred candidate has said he is going to drastically increase prices with massive tariffs. This isn't strictly inflation but the effect on your wallet will be the same.

This isn't how tariffs work. Tariffs are put in place to discourage people from buying products produced in China and instead buy American made goods and services. They work because people buy less goods from China. Those who do, then pay more so along with the increased revenue, the government is able to generate revenue from the tariffs. If you don't want to pay more for Chinese goods, then you have plenty of options to buy stuff from American producers or other countries like Taiwan, Japan and other countries.

Because I live in a market driven, capitalistic economy, I can make choices to avoid paying more for Chinese goods, or if I want to, I can still buy those goods, albeit at an elevated price point. Nobody is forcing you to buy Chinese goods. Therefore, no, it won't affect my wallet the same because I still have the choice of whether to buy those goods and services or go somewhere else. This is the complete opposite of how price controls work where the government is rationing products in order to maintain a price point.

>> I would talk to actual economists instead of Google.

I have a minor in economics, two of my best friends work in finance and graduated from Ivy League schools and worked on Wall St for a decade. My father was a self made millionaire and entrepreneur. I currently own two businesses and deal with this stuff on a daily basis. The fact remains that the Biden admin denied that inflation was happening. By the time they decide to act, it was so bad that any solution would involve quite a bit of pain as I previously pointed out. Had they just admitted inflation was going up, they could've acted sooner to deal with it. Ignoring it put them in a place where you either had to do nothing and allow a long winded market correction (which is what they did) or trigger a recession, or raise taxes, something nobody would be ok with - which then would've had implications for Biden's re-election which they weren't going to jeopardize.

So yeah, I do talk with actual people who actually know how the markets and the economy works and I myself actually know how this stuff works because I've been dealing with it for over two decades, with both Democratic and Republican presidents.

replies(1): >>42079970 #
192. valval ◴[] No.42078509{4}[source]
I can guarantee you without any shadow of a doubt that rich people pay a higher percentage of their income in taxes than poor people because of progressive taxation in the US.
replies(2): >>42079852 #>>42085841 #
193. hackyhacky ◴[] No.42079371{5}[source]
> But this would probably require to have such plans.

No, just the concept of a plan.

194. deanCommie ◴[] No.42079850{5}[source]
This is the key: if Harris makes empty promises and doesn't deliver them, the left won't vote for her again or vote for a 3rd party. Arguably that already happened with the millions of Biden voters that stayed home and didn't vote for her because they believed they wasn't effective enough as an administration.

If Trump makes empty promises, and doesn't deliver on them, nobody cares. They'll still come to vote for him to spite the dems.

The right splinters in public (many turned on Trump 2020-2024) but unites in the voting booth.

The left splinters in public AND in the voting booth.

I had sincerely hoped that the reason Trump was going to lose this year is too many people are tired of his b.s. and would simply not be radicalized enough to come out and vote at all - even if they thought Harris was trash.

Boy was I wrong.

195. kelipso ◴[] No.42079852{5}[source]
Above a couple of hundred thousand dollars a year or so, the percentage starts going down because the income comes from stocks etc.
replies(1): >>42079978 #
196. michaelmrose ◴[] No.42079970{7}[source]
Actual working economists weighed in on both Biden's handling of the recovery especially in context of an executive only strategy with a do nothing congress and the wisdom of Trumps tariffs. I choose to believe their analysis not yours. The fact that you think posting Google AIs take on the matter is useful or proves something indicates a deficit in understanding not only of the topic but how and why humans communicate.

Trump suggested ruinously high tariffs not only on China but everywhere other than the US and believed that this would be not a spur to move people to US goods but somehow a continuous tax on other countries. He also suggested putting this forward immediately to open the money spigot to our country that would distribute this new found wealth.

There is no way that our economy aligns around home produced goods that don't even exist in sufficient quantity nor price in any reasonable time frame. Instead you get massive price increases in price while people scramble, trade wars, supply shortages, knock on effects for people whose own economic activities require goods they can't get at a reasonable price and price increases in domestic goods and services which require foreign goods and services (most of them) and recession.

This is without the additional shock to the system of putting tens of millions of productively employed individuals in concentration camps and the widespread unrest that is sure to follow that action.

None of this positions the US well to invest in domestic goods because people don't invest in the middle of unrest. If Trump keeps his campaign promises the entire economy is going down the crapper.

197. sokoloff ◴[] No.42079978{6}[source]
A lot of poor people pay literally no federal income tax. (Just over 40% of households pay no federal income tax.)
replies(1): >>42080750 #
198. kelipso ◴[] No.42080750{7}[source]
Sure, you still have people making a million dollars pay less in percentage income tax than people making $200k.
replies(1): >>42082062 #
199. lazyeye ◴[] No.42081422{7}[source]
Does anyone remember when the left side of politics used to be about advocating for the working class?

Now that they just sneer at them.

replies(1): >>42086052 #
200. TimTheTinker ◴[] No.42081445{8}[source]
Comparing Trump to a 20th century totalitarian just seems rich.

It was the liberals who wanted to put unvaccinated people in internment camps and/or prison in 2022.

201. pvaldes ◴[] No.42081460{7}[source]
Is more like change the message fifty times a day so everybody ends confused and dazed and just remember or imagine the parts what they wanted to hear.
202. robotnikman ◴[] No.42082035{4}[source]
Its been hard, the past year I've had very little luck doing so.
203. sokoloff ◴[] No.42082062{8}[source]
And people who make $200K and $1M/yr are both paying a higher rate than actual poor people.

Unless you're arguing that someone making $200K/yr is in the category of "poor" in which case it would pay to be explicit, because that's not going to be the most natural interpretation for most people.

replies(1): >>42083736 #
204. kelipso ◴[] No.42083736{9}[source]
Lol maybe but when I see rich people I definitely think more than $300k.
205. disgruntledphd2 ◴[] No.42085809{17}[source]
> What we call "socialist" economic policy (like the nationalized services in many European nations today) is an entirely separate and mostly unrelated issue (to me at least).

Look, I mean this in the nicest possible way, but that's a pretty weird definition of socialism which seems likely to perpetuate confusion and disagreement with people who don't share your definition.

If you want to keep using the word like that, I'd suggest defining it the first time you use it.

replies(1): >>42086642 #
206. jbn ◴[] No.42085841{5}[source]
see https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/18/who-pays-...

income tax is progressive but tends to become regressive at the very top when individuals have control over what counts as "realized income". The ultra wealthy in fact don't pay so much tax (and certainly not their "fair" share).

What you say is true absent any tax optimization, alas there is such a thing, especially at the top. Also, see works of Zucman and Saez.

replies(1): >>42090278 #
207. Aeolun ◴[] No.42086052{8}[source]
Look, I’m all for the working class. I can totally see how they’d vote for Trump because at least it’s better than voting to continue the oligopoly that’s the US right now. At least when you’re voting for Trump it’s abundantly clear in whose interests he’s working, and maybe if you repeat the same thing to him often enough, he’ll actually do it on a whim.

It still feels like a dumb idea, because of well, literally everything the man has ever done. Has anything he’s done ever had a positive impact on the working class? At least the dems have a sorta spotty record on healthcare, and a minor interest in keeping the workers fed and clothed.

It’s not the working class that I have an issue with. It’s everyone voting for Trump that I have an issue with. They just happen to overwhelmingly be hillbillies.

Europe has sensible political parties for the working class, that actually work for their interests, and the only reason I can imagine the US doesn’t have them is because nobody is interested in them. They roundly rejected Sanders and he’s the closest the US ever came.

replies(1): >>42088364 #
208. TimTheTinker ◴[] No.42086368{7}[source]
Reduced competitive pressure is a boon to business.

The less competitive pressure there is, the more likely it is that new businesses will form -- it lowers the bar and makes it easier to start new ventures.

replies(1): >>42088818 #
209. TimTheTinker ◴[] No.42086642{18}[source]
My definition appears in the dictionary, so I don't think it can be that weird:

> 3. (in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of Communism.

Thanks for the feedback though. I'll try to define my terms more carefully in the future.

replies(1): >>42106391 #
210. stcroixx ◴[] No.42087994{3}[source]
There's also an over supply of these engineers. The H1B program was intended to address a shortage that no longer exists, yet the workers and program remain, ruining the market for citizens.
211. l33t7332273 ◴[] No.42088063{7}[source]
Harris was naming specifics of lots of plans. No tax on tips, exact figures for tax breaks for businesses and homes, explicit plans for abortion, etc
212. Qworg ◴[] No.42088818{8}[source]
The first part is arguable, the second isn't - it just isn't true. Usually, you get large, monopolistic industries that are propped up by the state. So worse products and services than what's available internationally for higher costs as you don't have to compete against all comers. Only a few countries have ever escaped this trap - there's a great Odd Lots about it: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/this-is-how-industrial...
213. stcroixx ◴[] No.42090018{3}[source]
We also actually saw very little of Biden during his presidency even during his 2020 campaign. The glimpses we did get often looked alarming regarding his fitness. Then the debate and it couldn't be hidden anymore. Many took this to be the evidence we were lied to for 4 years and don't know who is running the country, which caused the admin to appear very untrustworthy.
replies(1): >>42092228 #
214. valval ◴[] No.42090278{6}[source]
What I said is self-evident to anyone above the age of 8, but thank you for providing a supporting graphic.

Oh and yeah it’s true 100% of the time, everywhere in the US. Let me state it again if you’re confused; rich people pay a higher income tax percentage than poor people.

215. hackyhacky ◴[] No.42092228{4}[source]
Has Trump ever done anything to "appear untrustworthy?"
replies(1): >>42107142 #
216. disgruntledphd2 ◴[] No.42106391{19}[source]
> 3. (in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of Communism.

Ah now, that's clearly not how the world is commonly defined, given that it's the third definition with a parenthesis.

But anyways, all good, not that big a deal (although you're likely to have confusion around this term in the future).

217. stcroixx ◴[] No.42107142{5}[source]
Not enough to dissuade the people that like him from voting for him again. It's not like they don't know what it's like to have him in charge.
replies(1): >>42109949 #
218. hackyhacky ◴[] No.42109949{6}[source]
> Not enough to dissuade the people that like him from voting for him again.

Then apparently trustworthiness isn't a desirable property for a politician among the American people. What incentive does an aspiring politician have to be truthful if Trump can get elected?

219. lukas099 ◴[] No.42120412{5}[source]
Some goods might have deflated, but overall there was mild inflation.