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1796 points koolba | 9 comments | | HN request time: 0s | source | bottom
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drawkward ◴[] No.42063854[source]
It's the economy, stupid:

-Inflation is not prices; it is the rate of change in prices. Low inflation doesn't imply low prices. -Aggregate statistics don't necessarily explain individual outcomes.

The Dems failed on this count massively, and have, for maybe the last 40 years, which is about the amount of time it took for my state to go from national bellwether (As goes Ohio, so goes the nation) to a reliably red state. This cost one of the most pro-union Senators (Sherrod Brown) his job.

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UncleOxidant ◴[] No.42066822[source]
> The Dems failed on this count massively

What was their failure here? The failure to explain to the economically illiterate that while inflation is now about where it was prior to covid that prices won't be going down (unless there's some sort of major recession leading to deflation)?

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ComplexSystems ◴[] No.42067493[source]
The failure is in this very common exchange

Average voter: I can't afford groceries at the store. Inflation sucks.

Response: Actually, here is the correct definition of "inflation." As you can see from the correct definition, inflation rates are now good! Hopefully this helps you understand why things will never get better.

What the average voter hears: I can't afford groceries. Your solution to this problem is to reframe the current situation as "good." I still can't afford groceries.

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crazygringo ◴[] No.42067909[source]
Where are you getting that "response" from? Here's a more accurate exchange:

Average voter: I can't afford groceries at the store. Inflation sucks.

Response: I know, inflation was caused by COVID and Biden got it back down. We had the best soft landing you could have asked for, Biden did a great job. But the original inflation wasn't under the president's control, it was a worldwide phenomenon, and you can't run it in reverse to go back to old prices.

What the average voter hears: I don't care about any of that. Prices were lower under Trump and he's a businessman, so I'll vote for him so prices go back down.

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VoodooJuJu ◴[] No.42068382[source]
Still refusing to listen to us plebeians. I can't afford groceries. I'm not looking for a scholar-bureaucrat reframe of my problem. I'm looking for a solution.
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gitremote ◴[] No.42068920[source]
We need universal basic income.
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stingrae ◴[] No.42069186[source]
that would lead to more inflation.
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r2_pilot ◴[] No.42069251[source]
Ok so then you change economic models away from capitalism, and towards a post-money economy. There are plenty of ways to do it, it merely requires the complete and total cooperation of everyone at once, or a sufficient transition period.
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TimTheTinker ◴[] No.42069447[source]
> complete and total cooperation of everyone at once, or a sufficient transition period

That is almost the definition of totalitarianism.

That's how hundreds of millions of people died (either by execution, war, work camps, or starvation[0]) as dictators pursued Marxist ideals during the 20th century.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Book_of_Communism

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r2_pilot ◴[] No.42069658[source]
Oh, I'm so glad you brought that up! Considering your own sources, seems like that work of scholarship may have not been an entirely impartial view. Particularly, from your own wiki link, >Margolin and Werth felt that Courtois was "obsessed" with arriving at a total of 100 million killed, which resulted in "sloppy and biased scholarship",[38] faulted him for exaggerating death tolls in specific countries,[6][39]: 194 [40]: 123

I appreciate your deep dive into these scholastic studies. I always appreciate learning new things.

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TimTheTinker ◴[] No.42069817[source]
You may disagree with that particular source, but your remark glosses over the grim reality: a heck of a lot of people died under socialism, more than the entire body count arising from World War 2.

When an idea has resulted in the deaths of a significant portion of the world's population at the time, it's healthy to regard it (and similar ideas) with a bit of skepticism.

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r2_pilot ◴[] No.42070037[source]
>You may disagree with that particular source, but your remark glosses over the grim reality: a heck of a lot of people died under socialism, more than the entire body count arising from World War 2.

I'm specifically trying to avoid the whole "no true Scottsman" argument by saying these aren't necessarily examples of how an actually functional communism economy would be, but I do wish you could be consistent with your terminology as socialism and communism are distinctly different ideas. I'd also like to emphasize the mild sarcasm when I used words such as "merely" and "complete and total cooperation",to close out this conversation which I have little more to contribute to.

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TimTheTinker ◴[] No.42070139[source]
Sounds like this is academic to you; it's visceral to me.

"If only every single person would..." is not how you create policy where people are actually free.

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1. r2_pilot ◴[] No.42070345[source]
I must have missed the part where, at birth, I signed the social contract saying that I approve of the governance and monetary policy. That, or I'm not free.
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2. TimTheTinker ◴[] No.42071857[source]
You're still free to leave, unlike citizens under socialism.

(Seriously, have you read about all the escape attempts over the Berlin Wall?)

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3. disgruntledphd2 ◴[] No.42075322[source]
Ah yes, the Great Wall of Norway is noted for it's troops and shootings of anyone looking for some winter sun.
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4. TimTheTinker ◴[] No.42075940{3}[source]
Not sure what Norway has to do with East Germany. Very antithetical governments.
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5. disgruntledphd2 ◴[] No.42076477{4}[source]
It was the mismatch between Communism (typically totalitarian) and socialism (generally somewhat market based) that I was calling out.
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6. TimTheTinker ◴[] No.42077837{5}[source]
Understood. I think those terms are so easily confused.

Philosophically, communism is the goal of Marxist theory -- where no ruling class even exists, ownership of the means of production doesn't exist, and everyone shares everything.

Socialism as a form of government (and not socialist economic policy within a republic or democracy) is an intentional, totalitarian stepping stone to that theoretical end goal. When I said "socialism" I meant these totalitarian governments and not anything that exists in northern Europe today. The communist parties of the "communist" (but really socialist) nations of the 20th century promised that the socialist totalitarianism was a stepping-stone and that it would be temporary until true communism was achieved (which has only ever actually occurred in small religious communities like monasteries, and which are often subsidized from the outside anyway). Those promises of temporary totalitarianism were part of how the dictators gained power.

What we call "socialist" economic policy (like the nationalized services in many European nations today) is an entirely separate and mostly unrelated issue (to me at least). I think many Americans' concern here is not a fear of totalitarianism (at least not as an immediate consequence), but that the more things are nationalized, the less freedom people have to choose where their money goes, and the less efficient the economy becomes -- but that's all entirely distinct from and unrelated to the evils of Mao, Lenin, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc.

The only modern, truly "socialist" nation I know of is North Korea.

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7. disgruntledphd2 ◴[] No.42085809{6}[source]
> What we call "socialist" economic policy (like the nationalized services in many European nations today) is an entirely separate and mostly unrelated issue (to me at least).

Look, I mean this in the nicest possible way, but that's a pretty weird definition of socialism which seems likely to perpetuate confusion and disagreement with people who don't share your definition.

If you want to keep using the word like that, I'd suggest defining it the first time you use it.

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8. TimTheTinker ◴[] No.42086642{7}[source]
My definition appears in the dictionary, so I don't think it can be that weird:

> 3. (in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of Communism.

Thanks for the feedback though. I'll try to define my terms more carefully in the future.

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9. disgruntledphd2 ◴[] No.42106391{8}[source]
> 3. (in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of Communism.

Ah now, that's clearly not how the world is commonly defined, given that it's the third definition with a parenthesis.

But anyways, all good, not that big a deal (although you're likely to have confusion around this term in the future).