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197 points LorenDB | 68 comments | | HN request time: 0.615s | source | bottom
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tptacek ◴[] No.41908565[source]
This is a good way for Ars to generate clicks and a more honest headline probably wouldn't move the needle much, but it's worth being clear for HN that the objection here is not that locked phones are good for consumers, but that the subsidization deals locked phones enable are.
replies(11): >>41908581 #>>41908673 #>>41908679 #>>41908875 #>>41908906 #>>41909375 #>>41909380 #>>41909447 #>>41909558 #>>41911205 #>>41911215 #
1. nothercastle ◴[] No.41908679[source]
They aren’t though. Subsidized phones are like monthly car payments drive up costs and are targeted at people bad at math.

If consumers paid out of pocket for their phones then they would be more picky about upgrading and plan prices. It would also make upselling shitty plan features harder so the carriers would loose a lot of money.

replies(7): >>41908735 #>>41908766 #>>41908828 #>>41909010 #>>41909194 #>>41909329 #>>41909562 #
2. christophilus ◴[] No.41908735[source]
Monthly car payments can be good, though, as opposed to paying cash, assuming you can get a reasonable rate of return by conservatively investing the cash in a fairly liquid investment.
replies(3): >>41908890 #>>41908934 #>>41909359 #
3. cmeacham98 ◴[] No.41908766[source]
I would agree with you (financing small purchases like a phone is a bad idea and causes people to spend money they shouldn't), but that doesn't make the clickbait acceptable. Ars Technica should accurately report the claims of the telco industry.
replies(2): >>41908799 #>>41909304 #
4. DaiPlusPlus ◴[] No.41908799[source]
Most people don’t live in your affluent bubble where, apparently, a $500 to $2,000 expense is a “small purchase”.
replies(4): >>41908827 #>>41908915 #>>41909013 #>>41909336 #
5. Always42 ◴[] No.41908827{3}[source]
You don’t need to pay $500 to $2000 for a phone. I don’t think I have ever paid that much.
replies(3): >>41908867 #>>41908893 #>>41909245 #
6. mattmaroon ◴[] No.41908828[source]
I don’t know, my phone carrier charges me zero interest to “buy” my phone on a 36 month loan because of it. It’s not a huge financial windfall by any means, but it’s absolutely money in my pocket.
replies(4): >>41908920 #>>41908987 #>>41909027 #>>41909185 #
7. Symbiote ◴[] No.41908867{4}[source]
As you are probably aware, popular phones like the iPhone 15 and Samsung Galaxy S24 (#1 and #2 in the USA) are in that range, costing $700 and $1300 for the 'basic' models.
replies(3): >>41908902 #>>41909023 #>>41909039 #
8. johnnyanmac ◴[] No.41908890[source]
They type of people they target don't even have money saved for an emergency. Let alone money to invest.
9. throwaway48476 ◴[] No.41908893{4}[source]
Cheaper phones have a way higher value/$ ratio. Instead of financializing expensive phones the market should encourage cheaper phones through increased demand.
replies(2): >>41908966 #>>41909283 #
10. throwaway48476 ◴[] No.41908902{5}[source]
Somehow the rest of the world gets by with much cheaper phones.
replies(2): >>41909059 #>>41909686 #
11. fragmede ◴[] No.41908915{3}[source]
compared to a car (medium) or house (large)?
replies(1): >>41908937 #
12. actionablefiber ◴[] No.41908920[source]
My family (parents, siblings) are asking me "How did our T-mobile phone bill balloon so much in the past decade?" and I can point to the slow creep and the plan changes they made that (without them knowing or anyone telling them) un-grandfathered them out of a favorable promotional plan. For instance my sister needed to increase her data cap about a few months before they moved our data to unlimited. It pushed her out of the promo and now the family plan costs $35/mo extra even though her line is getting the exact same things as mine, which is still on the promo pricing.

Then I tell them they'd be better served by switching to an MVNO offering significantly better rates and they come back and tell me they're locked in for a while because they just financed new devices.

I'm souring on the ways we create systems where you have to be super savvy and walk on eggshells with how you use the service and utter the right incantations or else you get hosed.

replies(1): >>41909144 #
13. ryandrake ◴[] No.41908934[source]
Current (risk free) 5 year TIPS real yield is 1.65%... Not sure if there are many car loans offered at a lower rate. If you were thinking a different investment, you'd of course need to adjust it for risk, inflation, and liquidity before comparing to the car loan.
14. solardev ◴[] No.41908937{4}[source]
In my world, >$100 is a large purchase. A car is a huge purchase that happens maybe only 2-3x in a lifetime, and purchasing a house is something I hear about in history books, when apparently there used to be a middle class.
replies(1): >>41909127 #
15. MichaelZuo ◴[] No.41908966{5}[source]
Who will fund R&D into new innovations then?

Cheaper phones by definition have slimmer margins.

replies(1): >>41908984 #
16. throwaway48476 ◴[] No.41908984{6}[source]
I'm not saying all phones should be cheap. The market for premium phones has and will continue to exist. And who's to say finding ways to reduce the cost to produce phones isn't innovation?

I find that markets that are financialized where the price of the good is obfuscated are less efficient. This is because efficient markets rely on price discovery. Healthcare is an excellent example of this.

replies(1): >>41909037 #
17. __MatrixMan__ ◴[] No.41908987[source]
That's assuming they stop collecting on that loan once it's paid off. When I worked at TMobile we'd have accounts with phones that were eligible to be unlocked, and which were eligible to be moved to a cheaper plan, and the policy was just to leave them as-is unless they said something.
replies(2): >>41910093 #>>41910479 #
18. tedunangst ◴[] No.41909010[source]
There's a multitude of false claims that phone companies can make, but we should still expect journalists to report those claims accurately.
19. parsimo2010 ◴[] No.41909013{3}[source]
I don't think GP meant that $500 to $2,000 is cheap, I think they meant a small purchase relative to something like a house.

A better distinction is not small vs. large, but appreciating assets vs. depreciating. Houses tend to increase in value, so it's usually okay to finance (pandemics and market crashes are the exceptions) because you often make a profit when it's time to sell. Phones tend to decrease in value after purchase, so financing it just means you're losing even more money at the end. Phones are also fragile so it's common to break one and still have to make payments.

replies(1): >>41909540 #
20. jazzyjackson ◴[] No.41909023{5}[source]
Popular or not they are luxury goods, and a modern iphone can be had for a couple hundred bucks used (SE 2nd gen)
21. Retric ◴[] No.41909027[source]
In a competitive market ‘free’ interest deals just mean higher monthly premiums for basic service.

AT&T’s prepaid plans start at is 25$/month for unlimited calls & text, “Unlimited” data (After 16GB it degrades to 1.5mbps) + 10Gb tethering. Meanwhile their cheapest regular plan is 50$/month for worse service (4GB data).

Sure they don’t offer the best plans prepaid, but that’s basic price discrimination.

replies(1): >>41909138 #
22. MichaelZuo ◴[] No.41909037{7}[source]
I think it's impossible to buy a phone from any of the major carriers online without seeing the full upfront price at least a few times on screen.

And in store there's clearly the price tag right beside the demo model.

So hard to see how its obsfucated like healthcare.

replies(1): >>41909071 #
23. nothercastle ◴[] No.41909039{5}[source]
That’s because subsidized plans don’t encourage shopping for the lowest price. Consumers just see free phone and optimize to buy the most expensive free phone available.
replies(1): >>41910162 #
24. givinguflac ◴[] No.41909059{6}[source]
I love this take-

Sure, let’s just ignore the disastrous adware, bloatware etc that also “subsidize” these cheaper phones, to say nothing of the actual capabilities or user experience of said devices.

replies(1): >>41912076 #
25. throwaway48476 ◴[] No.41909071{8}[source]
I buy cheap phones for projects so have experienced exactly this. If you go on any prepaid WISP site and look at their device selection ordered by lowest price there's always an asterisk and the quoted price is based on some kind of contract.
replies(1): >>41909243 #
26. johnnyanmac ◴[] No.41909127{5}[source]
I guess it will really depend on the user or need. I won't consider putting down a down payment for anything under 4 figures without some absolutely worthwhile plan (credit cards can do that for me at that range). At that point I need to weigh between if I really need it or not.

I even paid straight up for my current Laptop, some $2700. The only things in my life I threw a down payment on are furniture: my bed, my kitchen chair setup, and my patio furniture.

27. nine_k ◴[] No.41909138{3}[source]
Hey, it's the cost of credit.

With a prepaid plan, you credit the operator, because you pay upfront, and the service is rendered after it, and ceases if your balance goes below zero.

With regular plans, the operator credits you, and you can be late with your payment for many days before the operator ceases servicing you.

So it's a month worth if credit, plus a different risk profile.

Also, it's market segmentation: the prepaid plan is the gateway drug %)

replies(1): >>41909724 #
28. treyd ◴[] No.41909144{3}[source]
> I'm souring on the ways we create systems where you have to be super savvy and walk on eggshells with how you use the service and utter the right incantations or else you get hosed.

These systems rely on intentionally leaving people in the dark to manufacture legitimacy under the guise that well-educated consumers can avoid the hidden fees and restrictions. It's the expected end state when these shady schemes are allowed to exist.

replies(1): >>41909215 #
29. brewdad ◴[] No.41909185[source]
I had one of those deals for 3 phones. I was paying $272 a month all in. Once I paid off the phones, I switched to an MVNO on the same carrier. I get the same level of service for $105 per month. My "free" phones cost me $168 x 24 months = $4032 for phones that cost about $3000 combined at retail pricing.

Never again.

replies(2): >>41909515 #>>41909994 #
30. MarkusWandel ◴[] No.41909194[source]
I've had a couple of people who are decidedly good at math (engineers) explain to me that, at least here in Canada, for at least one carrier, for at least one kind of phone (recent, high-end model iphones) if you get out of the carrier contract the moment you can (2 years I think), you do get the phone for less than if you bought it outright and went on a market rate prepaid plan right away. Not even considering the interest free "instalment plan" that they are essentially buying it on.

I guess the carriers still make money because once habituated, especially if they've never done the port-number-to-new-carrier thing, people stay in the high priced plan longer than necessary. Like the three years until they've truly paid the above-market price for the phone, and are now eligible for another "free" phone which they may not even take advantage of.

For what it's worth, carrier locking phones has been illegal here for some years (and any phone from the locked era had to be unlocked for free for the asking after the law was changed) and it hasn't changed anything in terms of these rent-to-buy type carrier plans. So I don't know what the fuss is about. A contract is a contract.

replies(2): >>41909584 #>>41910543 #
31. tkluck ◴[] No.41909215{4}[source]
Yes. It's the canonical (and, I think, original) example of a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confusopoly .
32. MichaelZuo ◴[] No.41909243{9}[source]
The prepaid phone models available are usually the cheaper phones?

Or is there some carrier that sells the expensive $1000+ phones on prepaid plans?

replies(1): >>41909365 #
33. brewdad ◴[] No.41909245{4}[source]
I used to buy $200 Android phones. I never had one last more than 18 months. I'm talking dead, not just annoyingly slow. I now have a 3.5 year old iPhone that I expect to get at least another 1.5 years out of. $200/yr compared to $133/yr but I'm generating less waste and getting a better overall experience the entire time I own the phone. For me it was absolutely worth it.
replies(2): >>41909445 #>>41910144 #
34. unsignedint ◴[] No.41909283{5}[source]
You don't need to go for the cheapest phone, but I find the midrange, around $300-$400, to be the sweet spot. Sure, you could opt for something more expensive, but unless you have a specific need, the benefits won't be that noticeable. I'd rather put that extra money toward upgrading a PC instead. I chose a midrange Samsung for its practical customization options over stock Android, plus it comes with 4 promised updates. While it's not as long as the 7 years of updates from a Pixel, realistically, the battery will likely swell like a pillow before it even hits the 7th year anyway.
replies(1): >>41909807 #
35. nine_k ◴[] No.41909304[source]
You speak as if a phone is gold bullion, which has no other value than to store value. Also note that time is also valuable, and can't be easily bought.

There may be a really good reason for a not well-off family to get a new and advanced phone from the phone company, for a small monthly payment. They can't afford the upfront cost, and will pay more for a depreciating asset. On the other hand, they now may have a phone with a great camera to record their kid's school graduation, or other such event that only occurs once. Or they may finally use a smartphone with 4G / 5G to have good-quality video calls with some faraway friends or kin, which were a pain with their old phone. Etc.

This still beats buying a new phone with a credit card, at 29.95% APR.

36. afavour ◴[] No.41909329[source]
It's a little more nuanced than you're making out. I spent way, way too long working out the totals from the various methods of getting a new phone and getting the free phone as part of a 24/36 month agreement ended up being cheaper than many alternatives, primarily because you're paying the monthly plan amount whether you take the free phone or not. I personally think upgrading my phone after three years is a reasonable timeframe, but of course everyone is different.

It wasn't cheaper than all alternatives. There were a bunch of virtual operators offering better monthly rates than the big networks but I've personally had bad experiences with network deprioritization on them. Depends very much on your individual circumstance, I'm in NYC and the network is clearly pretty saturated.

replies(4): >>41909430 #>>41909664 #>>41910368 #>>41912899 #
37. qwertox ◴[] No.41909336{3}[source]
If you know that you'll be buying a new phone every 3-4 years, you might as well start saving towards it, regardless of it costing 200€, 500€ or more. It's harder to do that with a car or a house.
38. i80and ◴[] No.41909359[source]
There are economic environments where this is true, but I think they tend to be the exception, not the rule. Car loan rates right now are quite steep.
39. throwaway48476 ◴[] No.41909365{10}[source]
Typically the $1000+ premium phone market is for unlocked phones sold directly from the manufacturer.

The locked phones are usually sub $250 and have some kind of finacial gimmick to get the sticker price lower. Often it will be some carrier specific model name. Just sort by price low to high and you'll find them.

replies(1): >>41909613 #
40. nothercastle ◴[] No.41909430[source]
Try att prepaid. Its like 300$ a year you can’t beat that or at least not by much
replies(1): >>41909734 #
41. sangnoir ◴[] No.41909445{5}[source]
I bet you weren't buying midrange Motorolas. I bought a Moto G for $179 (forgot the model: may have been G1/G2, and that may have been promo pricing for an unlocked phone) and used it for close to 5 years. I only stopped using it because the camera quality was showing it's age relative to the flagships of the day.
42. turtlebits ◴[] No.41909515{3}[source]
Something is wrong if you're paying 90+ per line.

I had three free phones, service for 3 lines was 120$/mo. Phones were paid for up front and got ~60$ off each that in bill credits for 24 months.

The math came out exactly right

43. ◴[] No.41909540{4}[source]
44. refurb ◴[] No.41909562[source]
Yes they are.

If you were going to buy a plan from AT&T anyways at $60/month, they are willing to give you a $800 phone for “free” if they can lock you into a 2 year contract.

Buying your own phone for $800 and paying $60/month isn’t a better deal but it does give you flexibility to drop the carrier whenever you want.

Consumers can decide.

Banning a consumer option sounds anti-consumer, not pro.

45. sourcepluck ◴[] No.41909584[source]
Yeah, just like the supermarket club cards are good for shoppers.

A similar psychological thing is going on in both cases I feel - some minority will manage to emerge winners due to a mixture of persistence, intelligence, luck, greed, etc. And the majority will get squeezed, or else how would such large percentages of marketing budgets continue to be pumped into club card and subscription schemes.

46. MichaelZuo ◴[] No.41909613{11}[source]
Huh? I'm talking about the US?

ATT, Verizon, and Tmobile are selling many many expensive phones, locked, on 24 momth payment plans, literally hundreds of possible configurations of dozens of models.

47. 1800throwaway ◴[] No.41909664[source]
> getting the free phone as part of a 24/36 month agreement ended up being cheaper than many alternatives

This is generally strictly true, but most people don't move on to the next deal once they've paid off their device, and end up paying more than they would have had they bought the device outright, device+plan cost considered.

48. refurb ◴[] No.41909686{6}[source]
Much of the world “gets by” on outdoor toilets, but we put value on indoor plumbing don’t we?
49. gruez ◴[] No.41909724{4}[source]
There's no way the credit risk on the post paid plans are anywhere high enough to justify the higher prices.
replies(1): >>41910181 #
50. from-nibly ◴[] No.41909734{3}[source]
Mint mobile for $180?
replies(1): >>41909768 #
51. Mistletoe ◴[] No.41909768{4}[source]
I got my whole family on Mint Mobile and they have never looked back. Everything else is ridiculously priced compared to Mint.
replies(1): >>41909881 #
52. paulryanrogers ◴[] No.41909807{6}[source]
IME even mid tier phones won't have more than a year or so of security updates left, unless you buy them new. And even then it's often only 18-24 months. We should insist that companies support their phones longer or unlock and completely open source them at the EOL.
replies(1): >>41912288 #
53. nothercastle ◴[] No.41909881{5}[source]
If their plan works in your area absolute steal
replies(1): >>41909992 #
54. grepfru_it ◴[] No.41909992{6}[source]
As soon as I drive outside of city limits I lose all practical cell coverage. One of the main reasons I stick to Verizon
replies(1): >>41910999 #
55. xattt ◴[] No.41909994{3}[source]
If it was Public Mobile, they really did their long-time customers dirty because of their points system change. I used to pay $27/month because of referrals and loyalty, and now it’s back up to ~$39 because their new system forces you to actively redeem your points.

I’m switching over to Lucky when I have the mindspace to do it.

56. mattmaroon ◴[] No.41910093{3}[source]
They stop, then they let me trade my 3 yr old phone in for $1,000 and we do it again.
57. gruez ◴[] No.41910144{5}[source]
You must be doing something wrong. I bought a few cheap mototola and xiaomi android phones over the years and they've lasted years and continue to work to this day.
58. gruez ◴[] No.41910162{6}[source]
I find it hard to believe that consumers are that dumb that they can't do an addition and multiplication to find the actual TCO.
59. Drew_ ◴[] No.41910368[source]
> I spent way, way too long working out the totals from the various methods of getting a new phone

Did you add this time you spent into those totals? I think if you did, your math would come out differently. Personally, if I even feel the need to do any math like this, the answer is already "no, I can't afford this".

replies(1): >>41913041 #
60. djbusby ◴[] No.41910479{3}[source]
They keep you on a plan but they don't keep charging the payment for the device. In my case I'm on a cheaper plan than current offerings and have three lines, all with paid off devices.
61. aceofspades19 ◴[] No.41910543[source]
Yeah as a fellow Canadian, I agree. When the unlocking policy was first discussed here, people had the same fears and that people would just run off with the phones. It turns out that people generally don't like being banned from a carrier or getting the hit on their credit.

I don't see why its different than a car really. While some dealerships are adding GPS trackers nowadays, there is nothing stopping you from buying a car on credit and driving it to Mexico and hiding it in a locked garage. It's going to be very difficult to buy another car if you do that though, and that's enough of a deterrence for most people as they have to continue living their lives and eventually buy a new car.

replies(1): >>41911008 #
62. simfree ◴[] No.41910999{7}[source]
Verizon is really thin on the ground out West, their coverage just keeps shrinking as their LTEiRA partners shut down or get bought out by T-Mobile and AT&T.

Between Reno and Las Vegas it's pretty stark, huge holes in Verizon's coverage and a few 3G CDMA only towers, while AT&T has strong band 14 coverage, and T-Mobile has slightly better coverage than Verizon but also lets you roam onto AT&T.

Meanwhile in the San Juans the situation is dire on Verizon, with only one tower just on Orcas Island. AT&T has a handful of towerd, two on Orcas and then they force roam everyone onto T-Mobile who has dozens of local towers.

So long as you are on AT&T or T-Mobile with roaming you'll have the best coverage possible, but if your stuck on Verizon it seems your in for a rough ride these days.

63. simfree ◴[] No.41911008{3}[source]
Canada is also a much smaller market that has minimal competition with unique cellular bands preventing reuse of said phones outside of a handful of other countries (without severe breakage of VoLTE, or missing low band coverage).
replies(1): >>41911274 #
64. aceofspades19 ◴[] No.41911274{4}[source]
That's not true, it may have been true at one point in time like 20 years ago. Even Bell Canada says you can use your Canadian phone in most countries in the world: https://support.bell.ca/mobility/network_coverage/where_can_... (obviously not super authoritative but they wouldn't tell people their phone worked in a country if it did not.)

It's possible there are some obscure features that may not work properly but for general usage as far as phone calls, texting, data usage, I've never heard of anyone having any issues with their Canadian phone internationally, besides maybe the cost of roaming.If you have a source from recent times that says this, I'd like to see it.

As far as minimal competition goes, there is not an infinite amount of cellphone carriers in the US either that will give you a phone on credit, especially if you have bad credit. I'm sure there are existing ways you can scam phones out of carriers too if you are fine with being banned from the carrier and/or torching your credit.

65. ahartmetz ◴[] No.41912076{7}[source]
No such crap on Motorola phones. Posting from a five years old Moto One Vision. It's... a smartphone. It has a decent CPU, screen, camera, storage, NFC, etc. I couldn't say what's missing.

The only thing I'd get excited about in a new phone is a faster CPU.

66. unsignedint ◴[] No.41912288{7}[source]
We’re likely talking about a small subset of users for whom open sourcing or similar efforts would be worthwhile. The bigger issue these days is that phones aren't designed to last. We've seen this trend ever since batteries became non-removable, and I doubt EU regulations will make a significant difference. Most users either dispose of their phones when they stop working or trade them in for a newer model. This is especially common with premium phones, while mid-range models might only fetch you $10 on a trade-in if you’re lucky.

Some companies do better in this regard. For example, Samsung provides four major updates, whereas the last mid-range Motorola I owned only gave me one. By the time I receive the fourth update on my current phone, I'll probably be dealing with bigger issues, like the battery not holding a charge—or worse. I wish phones were more serviceable, but that’s just not the case. Still, at mid-range prices, I’m fine with replacing it when it’s on its last legs.

If you're inclined, though, most Android phones allow you to unlock the bootloader and tinker with the software as much as you want.

67. krageon ◴[] No.41912899[source]
I've done the same thing as you and buying the phone separately was cheaper every time. In a normal jurisdiction the phone payment is a clear component of your bill and it is patently clear you're borrowing the full sale amount and paying back a higher amount of money.

If this isn't obviously the case, the "normal" plans are subsidizing phone sales. This means that you're almost certain to be better off with a vendor that doesn't offer this or at least offers it in a way that isn't dishonest.

At the end of the day, even if what you say is true making use of this deal makes things worse for everyone because it is part of a larger strategy. Inevitably you will be squeezed for more money than you otherwise would, sometimes it just takes a while.

68. ThunderSizzle ◴[] No.41913041{3}[source]
How can comparing different methods for a couple minutes be charged? Or rather, would it not be charged evenly to multiple options since multiple options are being researched, including the proposed "default" of buying a phone outright and then finding a plan that will actually provide suitable service while saving money.

To your credit, just stick with the subsidized phone deal, and then don't upgrade when it's paid off. At that point, your phone is now technically unlocked