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217 points belter | 31 comments | | HN request time: 0.736s | source | bottom
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proee ◴[] No.41839783[source]
Cost of the Europa Clipper program is around $4-5 billion. Can anyone in the industry shed some light on why these programs are so expensive?
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1. hydrogen7800 ◴[] No.41839865[source]
I worked on one component of the spacecraft which was a derivative of something we've built may times before. However, the test program was entirely unique to Europa Clipper, and most of the cost was in this bespoke testing. The use of a "heritage" component served mostly to lower risk; it did not save much cost overall.
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2. consumer451 ◴[] No.41840072[source]
Oh cool, someone that actually worked on it!

I was just thinking about how much pressure there must be on everyone involved in Discovery Class missions. People's entire professional careers, billions of dollars, so much at stake!

Is the pressure something significant, or is it spread across so many people that there is little trouble sleeping at night?

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3. mandevil ◴[] No.41840104[source]
And can introduce unusual failure cases for these bespoke missions. Mars Observer was lost in flight to Mars three decades ago, probably because of the inappropriate reuse of a satellite rocket engine. (1) The space environment out around Jupiter is really quite different from the environment that the JWST is facing around E-S L2 or what the Parker Solar Probe is facing right near the Sun. Even if the component is spec'd to handle the environment, you need to have actual educated humans (read: expensive labor) determine what those conditions will be, and then verify that the part will meet it, and that's where the money goes- to pay all of those humans.

If you built even 15 Europa Clippers the cost per-item would come down enormously (because all of those people's work could be re-used), but since the 1970's NASA has not had the budget for multiple probes per missions. So every mission is bespoke, and has to be done again completely from scratch.

1: The engine was normally used for circularizing the orbit of a geosynch comm satellite, so within a few hours of flight. For doing a Mars Insertion burn it needed to sit fueled for months in outer space, which was not appropriately tested, and probably the fuel tank exploded in flight because of that.

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4. mandevil ◴[] No.41840339[source]
The one that gets to me is the Huygens part of the Cassini-Huygens mission. Cassini was launched October 15th, 1997, Huygens separated from the Cassini carrier on December 25th 2004, and landed on Titan on January 14th, 2005. So it was in space for over 7 years before it got it's 90 minutes of time on the surface. That was actually towards the upper-end of expected lifetime on Titan- somewhere between 30-90 minutes was the expected lifetime of the lander(1). So you build and test and test and test (2) for years before launch, then the probe travels for seven years in outer space, and then it gives you an hour and a half of data and that's it. Your entire life for ... 15 years? Resolved in 90 minutes. On the shorter end of probe lifespan, it would have died before the first signal even reached Earth!

1: Officially I believe the expectation was "3 minutes" but that was a deliberate under-promise so that a success could be declared as long as they got any message at all from the lander on the surface: I have second-hand accounts that 30 minutes was what the scientists considered the minimum.

2: Even with all that testing, disaster almost struck. It wasn't until after the launch that someone realized even all of this testing had missed something important. The radio communications between Cassini and Huygens would be affected by the Doppler shift of Huygens hitting Titan's atmosphere, which would be unpredictable changes to velocity. After launch they had to rejigger when Huygens would be launched to a time when the signals would be perpendicular to the direction of travel so the shift wouldn't affect the radio waves so much that the Cassini receiver firmware (which could not be modified after launch) could still detect the signals. And also with all of that testing, ESA's instructions to the Cassini probe missed turning on one channel on the receiver and so half of the pictures that Huygens transmitted had nothing listening in and were lost.

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5. quotemstr ◴[] No.41840341[source]
Yeah. I'm surprised that we don't have a standard deep space probe bus by now in at least serial production, at least for orbiters if not landers, rovers, and such.

Each mission has unique requirements, but since payload mass costs are coming down, ISTM it should be possible to create a standard buss that meets most requirements most of the rime, even if it's heavier than a bespoke effort for any one mission.

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6. consumer451 ◴[] No.41840485{3}[source]
Thanks for that. It made me wonder: who was it? Were they in the shower, did they awake from a nightmare?

Here is an HN post from 2014, "How a Swedish engineer saved a once-in-a-lifetime mission to Titan (2004)" [0]

Since the link has rotted away, here is the archive link to the IEEE story. [1]

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7472495

[1] https://archive.is/3oj6P (archive.org is still not working reliably)

7. JumpCrisscross ◴[] No.41840624{3}[source]
> Your entire life for ... 15 years? Resolved in 90 minutes

I ultimately decided against pursuing a career in aerospace engineering after talking to engineers who worked a similar time frame on a project only to watch it get killed in 30 seconds' debate in Congress.

8. hydrogen7800 ◴[] No.41840778[source]
>Is the pressure something significant, or is it spread across so many people that there is little trouble sleeping at night?

When you are on contract for something, you deliver to the contract, and are done when you successfully meet the customer's requirements. So in that sense you don't have the same exposure to the program risks.

However, I've been part of one-off science missions before, and there is a different feeling beyond the contract obligations, though it's certainly abstracted through the many layers of sub-, sub-contracts.

9. throwup238 ◴[] No.41841076[source]
There’s also politics at play. Public space agencies need to keep the absolute number of failures down to keep funding flowing, even if it costs absurd amounts to do it due to rapidly diminishing returns. This is especially important to flagship missions.

When I took Ae105 at Caltech, the NASA MSL project manager explained it like this (I remember the numbers he used clearly): a mission might cost $500 million with an 80% chance of success, or they can spend twice as much to increase the chance of success to 95% by investing a lot more in upfront testing and R&D. Now, the smart thing to do - given a billion dollar budget - is to take that first option because if it fails you can try again and the probability of both attempts failing is only 4%, compared to 5% for the expensive single mission. Then you’ve got an 80% chance of having $500 million left over for a different mission.

The public and decision makers react irrationally to any failure, putting funding for other missions and the entire program in jeopardy. NASA and ESA have to make some extremely suboptimal decisions to make sure that funding doesn’t get catastrophically cut.

The above is the example the instructor used to easily illustrate his point but he said the real numbers are even more stark. Often times the cost savings of just building a second copy of the payload along with the first means it costs $600 million for the first attempt, and only $200 million for the second (the cost of the launch vehicle and keeping people on staff), saving hundreds of millions overall.

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10. accrual ◴[] No.41841085{3}[source]
There are somewhat standard busses. Though you're correct, many use custom busses for their specific missions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_satellite_buses

For example, the SSL 1300 apparently has hosted 118 satellites so far:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SSL_1300

Though maybe the distinction between "satellite" and "spacecraft" bears importance here.

11. dom96 ◴[] No.41841102[source]
> So every mission is bespoke, and has to be done again completely from scratch.

Is there room here for making things more reusable? For example, instead of creating one big satellite with tens of instruments, how about they create 10 satellites with one instrument each? or would that still be too bespoke to lower the cost per item?

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12. frickinLasers ◴[] No.41841493[source]
It's really frustrating that there's not a way to educate the public on simple concepts like this. You'd think the out-in-the-open development approach of SpaceX, for instance, would make it blatantly obvious how much money they're saving by permitting failure...yet the news continually spins their less-than-perfectly successful test launches as undesirable. And space spending is perhaps one of the least consequential areas of government where this failure of the herd to comprehend reality applies.
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13. exmadscientist ◴[] No.41841615[source]
> The public and decision makers react irrationally to any failure, putting funding for other missions and the entire program in jeopardy. NASA and ESA have to make some extremely suboptimal decisions to make sure that funding doesn’t get catastrophically cut.

Which, incidentally, is one of the key reasons SpaceX has had the success they have: they're set up to handle failure and avoid this politics. How many Starships have blown up? If Starship were a NASA program, how many explosions ago would it have been cancelled? And yet this approach to risk is pretty effective!

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14. philistine ◴[] No.41841668{3}[source]
While we now live in an era of abundant rocket launches, it used to cost far more to launch with very few launches per year.

The whole strategies of exploration haven’t shifted yet to this new paradigm. Hopefully NASA starts making smaller probes and launching them far more often.

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15. mandevil ◴[] No.41841708{3}[source]
For things in Earth orbit (LEO all the way up to GEO) we do have some fairly worked out buses that can keep commercial missions done on budget within the fairly well developed parameters of commercial up to GEO. Have, honestly, since the 1980's. Multiple companies from multiple countries have demonstrated this, there is a competitive market for commsats and earth observing satellites (the only two markets where business cases really close). If you are doing science from LEO you can probably re-use a lot of components from those markets.

For exploration missions and anything in deep space (basically, beyond Lunar Orbit) people have kicked around ideas for common buses, there have been plenty of proposals, but no one seems to have enough value in them to be the third or fourth user of one- everyone has found it better to start from scratch than use someone else's bus design. It is possible if there was a sustained, focused effort at one kind of project, say, something where Mars orbiter launches were guaranteed every 26 months for more than a decade, that the investment in a common bus might pay off. But as long as we are bouncing between Mars, Jupiter, Pluto/KBO's, E-S L2, and inside Mercury's orbit, it just isn't actually reusable.

Just as one point, until the past few years everything in the outer planets had to be RTG powered, which requires a totally different design than something solar. It was only with Juno (and now the Europa Clipper) that solar has been demonstrated for outer planets at all, and it is still not exactly a design you'd have off the shelf, nor would the power design you'd want for outer planets solar be at all similar to the design you'd want for inner planets solar. The same is true for comms, for thermal management, for rad-hardening, etc.

16. downvotetruth ◴[] No.41841749{3}[source]
The public are smarter than you give them credit for. For the most part space missions are contests between governments and those governed with science as a consolation price. If you are part of team A do you want to have to come up with reasoning on why you lost? No. Does anyone care if a billionaire's toy gets blown up? No. The obvious choice to eliminate all risk would be not to play, but that is not an option; the other is to delay and delay some more. Thus, SLS.
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17. smileson2 ◴[] No.41842087{4}[source]
It's easy to imagine 3-4 years of projects failing and someone grandstanding about it, space exploration is a pointless endeavor to a lot of people
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18. mandevil ◴[] No.41842255{4}[source]
Europa Clipper is literally the largest thing ever launched to the outer planets (so big that Falcon Heavy can't be reused for this mission, they have to throw it all away in order to get every last jot of performance out of the rocket- so this is not an "abundant rocket launches" situation- this is a fully expendable rocket just like an Atlas V). And the size is not for fun, but because going close to Europa (the entire point of the mission) means going through the second strongest set of EM and radiation belts in our solar system. Even with this size- meaning it can have a lot more shielding than normal- the probe can only survive a few months of the radiation from Jupiter's van Allen belts. The plan is to break that few months of exposure up over about four years of calendar time, by having it do highly elliptical orbits so it stores a lot of data during a close flyby of Europa and then transmits that all back to Earth while it is far outside of Jupiter's radiation storm, then it can head back down and collect more data. And that lengthy transmission time is because it is sending information from so far away- and has so little juice that the effective bandwidth is tiny.

It is possible for a swarm of small satellites to fill niches in space exploration. Closely studying Europa isn't really one of them with today's technology.

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19. mmooss ◴[] No.41842259{3}[source]
Isn't that partly or largely due to Musk's influence? Like many powerful influencers, Musk can reliably rally supporters to even an unreality.

Compare the responses to a failure by Boeing or SLS and to a failure by SpaceX.

Also, SpaceX hasn't had a serious non-experimental failure yet (?). I'm sure their PR is preparing for that eventuality, but when non-fans are upset over a bad outcome and then learn about the risk tolerated, they will swing from admiring risk to condemning it. Imagine the Congressional committees.

Even if SpaceX is super-conservative when flying humans (which we shouldn't assume - cultures tend to be consistent), if someone dies then all that risk-seeking behavior will be attacked.

(To be clear, as long as SpaceX can manage risk in production - i.e., with high-value payloads such as people and NASA flagships - I think they and everyone else should use risk efficiently.)

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20. 15155 ◴[] No.41842598{4}[source]
> Also, SpaceX hasn't had a serious non-experimental failure yet

SpaceX had an explosive failure in 2016 with a commercial payload onboard.

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21. mmooss ◴[] No.41842988{5}[source]
Thanks. How valuable was the payload?
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22. thimabi ◴[] No.41843299{6}[source]
Very valuable. It contained a Facebook satellite (actually a French one) that was to provide internet connectivity to Africa.
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23. KoftaBob ◴[] No.41843325{6}[source]
The rocket was carrying the Amos-6 communications satellite, which was destroyed in the explosion. This satellite was owned by Israeli company Spacecom and valued at nearly $200 million.
24. solarwindy ◴[] No.41843625{5}[source]
Not quite fully expendable. Commentary during the livestream was that they’ll recover the fairing, for what it’s worth.
25. jiggawatts ◴[] No.41843930{7}[source]
“Meta connectivity”
26. cruffle_duffle ◴[] No.41844139{5}[source]
But if launches are cheap, why not build it while in our orbit and then send it? To me that is one of the things “cheap launches” provide… send up five smaller rockets into our orbit and assemble the beast up there.

Easier said than done, of course.

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27. mmooss ◴[] No.41844229{7}[source]
By some measure they all are very valuable, but it wasn't a NASA flagship mission or human beings, for example. Most importantly, the public didn't care.
28. mandevil ◴[] No.41844434{6}[source]
Right now, I think only three things have been assembled from multiple launches like you are proposing: Mir, ISS, and Tiangong. All of which were super expensive and the result of years of careful design work. Definitely not the way to make something cheap!

There was some talk about using ISS as a base for on-orbit assembly but the orbit (half-way between best orbit from KSC and Baikonur) isn't great for that and it turns out that constant docking and un-docking ruins scientific experiments requiring microgravity, so ISS really isn't a great base for assembly. Ideally, if you want to start on orbit assembly you'd have another station in the right orbit for KSC which isn't doing any microgravity research, but now we're talking about massive up front investment to save money on research satellites, is NASA ever going to get the scale of research budget for that savings to be worth it?

If something like Space Based Solar Power ever become a thing then such an on orbit assembly station would make sense, but the case for assembly for science missions really only closes if you have the station already for something else.

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29. ballooney ◴[] No.41845652{5}[source]
You don’t have to imagine it, it happened in a series of Mars mission failures at the end of the 90s that were designed under the ‘faster better cheaper’ paradigm and lead to congressional reviews, the nasa administrator losing his job, and a return to slower and expensiver.
30. Asraelite ◴[] No.41857182{7}[source]
> only three things have been assembled from multiple launches like you are proposing: Mir, ISS, and Tiangong

I would also count the Apollo missions. They launched on a single rocket, but the docking between the CSM and Lunar Module was for all intents and purposes equally difficult to assembly on orbit.

There are multiple commercial companies planning to assemble stations over the next few years. This in addition to the on-orbit refueling that SpaceX will be doing should hopefully enable a new generation of larger, assembled interplanetary probes.

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31. mandevil ◴[] No.41859430{8}[source]
I was using multiple here to mean 3 or more launches, because otherwise the Gemini missions that docked to a separately launched Agena-D booster (G8, G10, G11, G12) would all qualify: GX and GXI even restarted the ATV's engine to set new altitude records (which I think still holds today- if you ignore the 21 men who went to the moon on a Apollo capsule from 1968-1972).

But that is closer to what I meant, because they had to worry about separate launches that might fail (GVI, GIX) and find and dock with something you need to use orbital mechanics to approach (basically anything under 30m distance you can just eyeball and fly, but anything over that distance requires the full set of orbital calculations).