Most active commenters
  • account42(4)

←back to thread

960 points andrew918277 | 23 comments | | HN request time: 0.002s | source | bottom
1. neugiergiraffe ◴[] No.40715951[source]
Can someone explain to me why, over time, democratic states tend to drift into mass surveillance ?

Is it beacuse a lot of people feel unsafe or is it because the people supposed to ensure our security see it as the "easiest" or most effective way to do their job?

Is there so much benefit to having a fuctioning mass surveilance apparatus, and if yes, who benefits of it if not the people for whom these rules for in the first place?

replies(12): >>40716008 #>>40716012 #>>40716024 #>>40716063 #>>40716116 #>>40716268 #>>40716270 #>>40716315 #>>40717203 #>>40717287 #>>40724897 #>>40726478 #
2. mschuster91 ◴[] No.40716008[source]
"But the pedos" is a guaranteed way to lure voters.

Besides, there is a laaaarge amount of influential, rich and well connected people like Ashton Kutcher/Thorn willing to profit off of it. They're selling out our freedoms for personal gain.

3. lm28469 ◴[] No.40716012[source]
> democratic states

Democracy is a spectrum and it comes in many flavors.

For example nobody voted for von der Leyen, the French voted against the EU referendum in 2005 but the government still went with it, there hasn't been any referendum in France since

replies(1): >>40717972 #
4. eimrine ◴[] No.40716024[source]
It is not about democracy, it is about bullshit jobs in IT sector. Too many useds are fooled with proprietary software.
5. vbezhenar ◴[] No.40716063[source]
There's no democracy, it's just show. Mass surveillance is necessary to keep the power.
6. cl3misch ◴[] No.40716116[source]
> democratic states tend to drift into mass surveillance

I am not saying this is false, but think about the inverse: are there non-democratic states never drifting into mass surveillance? Maybe it is a symptom of a developed, high-trust society.

Which doesn't make mass surveillance a good thing. I'm just contemplating whether it's even possible to turn out different.

7. IMTDb ◴[] No.40716268[source]
In this case it's not really about mass surveillance. I genuinely do not believe it's the intended purpose (even if it is the actual outcome).

The issue is that Europe is behind in tech; particularly big communication networks (aka: social networks). One key element here is that the amount of taxes paid by the Facebooks and co. is ridiculously low and their importance in the economy is getting bigger and bigger. This causes a significant risk for the future.

Any attempt that we made to combat this on the technological aspect has been a complete failure.

To protect its citizen, Europe uses the biggest weapon at its disposal: regulations. The point is not to impose mass surveillance, nor is it to protect the children; the point is to hurt social networks because they are perceived as a threat (real or not). Hammer them with regulations until it's almost impossible to comply, if possible by implementing conflicting ideas (protect privacy of everyone BUT check every image for child pornography !).

The desired outcome is that: either the social network goes out of Europe, or decides to accept the fines, which more or less corresponds to what Europe believes should have been paid by a fair tax system.

Expect the exact same thing to happen with AI.

replies(4): >>40716884 #>>40717865 #>>40724921 #>>40726507 #
8. asah ◴[] No.40716270[source]
The issue is the rise of mass surveillance tech, which makes it too easy. Also, tech creates new threats (including terror plots, protecting children etc) which drive demand for the surveillance.
replies(2): >>40716683 #>>40717693 #
9. robjan ◴[] No.40716315[source]
When you have democracy the democratic process is now available to undermine it.
10. prmoustache ◴[] No.40716683[source]
> Also, tech creates new threats

Tech doesn't create terrorism or child abuse.

replies(1): >>40733720 #
11. dsign ◴[] No.40716884[source]
Domestic incumbents (social networks or messenger apps) would need to jump through the same hoops. So, I would say that, as a whole, the goal is to get people to self-sensor and to fear the establishment.

If the EU wished more competition by domestic companies, they could simply pass a law restricting the income tax by member states to not go over 50% of earned income. In my current jurisdiction, a lowly IT worker can easily pay a 66% tax rate, with 54% being paid as nominal taxes and the rest going as employer taxes. Unless you are self-employed, in which case you will get to pay your 66% with no smoke curtains in the middle.

replies(1): >>40726533 #
12. bonton89 ◴[] No.40717203[source]
> Can someone explain to me why, over time, democratic states tend to drift into mass surveillance ?

Democracy, even a flawed democracy leaves the status quo power structure vulnerable to being changed by popular political action. Mass surveillance allows the existing players to identify any nascent political movements that may eventually grow to threaten them and undermine or destroy these movements before they ever become a threat.

13. dandanua ◴[] No.40717287[source]
Have you thought that they tend to drift to totalitarianism, in fact?
14. shrimp_emoji ◴[] No.40717693[source]
This is unironically it.

Technology is evil. Specifically, the Internet is evil.

It's why it's got such a uniquely rich potential for dystopia, why all news is always bad news, why it's always getting worse.

Technology, as it progresses, is the enabling of power. So you'll find more and more power exerted over you because people can't resist. You'll have to assert power of your own to counter it, like switching to Linux or using a VPN. Or torrenting a media to escape the oppressive DRM placed upon it. But it's essentially a war you've found yourself enlisted in. If you've got the chops to fight in it, you're lucky; most don't.

I single out the Internet because it connects us with oppressors and makes us reliant on them more intimately than ever before. AI will be able to extend that oppression even in an air gapped environment because now the oppressor's intent can be packaged up and installed on the machine like never before -- no connection required.

And, in the limit, I think it all ends with gray goo, Daybreak style.

replies(1): >>40726569 #
15. vaylian ◴[] No.40717865[source]
That doesn't make sense. There are 2 versions of chatcontrol:

1. Voluntary chatcontrol (i.e. temporary derogation of the ePrivacy directive)

2. Mandatory chatcontrol (i.e. services must scan private communication once a detection order is issued)

The first version of chatcontrol is currently in effect, but it will expire in a few years. It was introduced, because social media (like facebook) was already scanning private communication to find CSAM and then someone pointed out that this is illegal in the EU and thus the ePrivacy directive was sabotaged to allow the scanning of private communication.

Facebook wanted to have a legal basis for the scanning of private communication. This does not hurt non-EU social networks, it helps them.

16. raxxorraxor ◴[] No.40717972[source]
Which are examples of democratic deficiencies that might be indicative of the EU not being particularly democratic.
17. EasyMark ◴[] No.40724897[source]
All police organizations will want complete control. It’s up to democracies to fight back. I think politicians are noticing the public are vulnerable to fear mongering about kids and crime and the “big bad cloud” and using that to get more power for their police apparatus, it doesn’t matter if you’re in a democracy or totalitarian state, governments want more power, all the time, every time. Except in a democracy you can fight back by voting, publishing, contacting representatives. It is getting harder but it’s still possible. Such things aren’t possible in Russia or China without Massive Upheaval and the dictator fearing loss of control, but otherwise no big deal for most changes in the laws.
18. EasyMark ◴[] No.40724921[source]
They don’t need mass surveillance to crush Facebook/tiktok in the EU, so I don’t see how you can draw this conclusion. They can easily regulate those two (and other)entities out of existence. Just make it illegal for anyone under 21 to use them and require everything to be kid friendly (no porn, no violence, no addictive advertising, etc) and they will be useless to virtually everyone except the elderly and that’s not where the money is. So I feel that this 100% about surveillance for the police state to comb through everyone’s lives looking for crimes to prosecute. There are so many laws and regulations I suspect most of us break multiple ones a day without realizing it.
19. account42 ◴[] No.40726478[source]
It's because the ruling class inevitably realizes that the polulace is the main threat to their continued rule and seeks to control them.
20. account42 ◴[] No.40726507[source]
This doesn't make any sense. The big social networks can aren't hurt by a requirement to scan messages. At best its another operating costs.
21. account42 ◴[] No.40726533{3}[source]
> In my current jurisdiction, a lowly IT worker can easily pay a 66% tax rate, with 54% being paid as nominal taxes and the rest going as employer taxes.

Now add VAT to really see how little of your labour translates into purchasing power.

22. account42 ◴[] No.40726569{3}[source]
The internet also connects you to your peers. It is your choice who you become reliant on.

DRM is not caused by technology, it is manufactured by laws that make it illegal to break. Operating systems that take control away from the user are not caused by technology, they are made possible by laws that make it illegal to modify them and share those modifications. Doomscrolling is not caused by technology, it is made possible by allowing corporate proaganda (aka ads) which make rage bait profitable.

We are in this dystopia not because technology is inherently evil but becaus this what our governments want.

23. asah ◴[] No.40733720{3}[source]
These are human nature (unfortunately) - tech creates new methods and channels to conduct and amplify these evil behaviors.

Please don't paint bike sheds. Drones are a new threat, obviously with humans manufacturing, arming and flying them.