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380 points rezonant | 67 comments | | HN request time: 0.84s | source | bottom
1. kevingadd ◴[] No.40207559[source]
I'm genuinely surprised by this. I figured the differences between tablets and phones, combined with Apple's efforts to distinguish between 'iPadOS' and 'iOS', would be enough to get them a win on this point. If the shared app store is part of the problem I wonder if that makes it a liability for any new apple ecosystem to tie into the App Store, like Vision OS for example.
replies(5): >>40207618 #>>40207698 #>>40208317 #>>40208677 #>>40208796 #
2. kvdveer ◴[] No.40207618[source]
Why would IpadOS not be held to the same DSA rules as IOS? Apple has applied the same model of gatekeeping (walled garden) to both the iPhone and the iPad. DSA attaches requirements to the gatekeepers if they are big enough.

Software similarity and market positioning don't really come into consideration once the role of gatekeeper has been established.

replies(3): >>40207638 #>>40207733 #>>40209124 #
3. codetrotter ◴[] No.40207690{3}[source]
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_24_...

They had valid reasons for it.

replies(1): >>40207709 #
4. saagarjha ◴[] No.40207698[source]
I mean it’s literally the same thing. That Apple got away with pretending iPadOS and iOS are somehow fundamentally different for this long is insane to me.
replies(1): >>40207965 #
5. threeseed ◴[] No.40207709{4}[source]
It doesn't change the fact that it's arbitrary at this point.

There are no rules that are governing what is or isn't a gatekeeper. It's just whatever EC decides that day.

replies(4): >>40207751 #>>40207765 #>>40209037 #>>40209085 #
6. Moldoteck ◴[] No.40207733[source]
Doesn't this mean that game consoles should be gatekeepers too like from sony/nintendo/microsoft?
replies(9): >>40207789 #>>40207793 #>>40207853 #>>40207869 #>>40207906 #>>40208138 #>>40208234 #>>40208298 #>>40208549 #
7. beretguy ◴[] No.40207743{3}[source]
Why are you defending having less ownership over devices that you own? It’s like your employer wants to give you a salary increase but you complain and say you don’t want more money.
replies(2): >>40208739 #>>40208843 #
8. lastdong ◴[] No.40207751{5}[source]
I believe it follows the Digital Markets Act (DMA), a European Union legislation designed to promote fairness and competition in digital markets. You can find more information here: https://digital-markets-act.ec.europa.eu/index_en
9. idle_zealot ◴[] No.40207765{5}[source]
The EC decides what the rules for defining a gatekeeper are, they invented the designation. You can call that arbitrary if you want, but they set their rules and are sticking to them. Deciding that iPads and iPhones are the same platform seems pretty common-sense to me.
replies(2): >>40207823 #>>40209379 #
10. riffraff ◴[] No.40207789{3}[source]
I 100% think this is the case, my guess as to why they're not targeted yet is just that they're less visible to regulators.

I'd like to know if there's another explanation.

replies(2): >>40207922 #>>40208822 #
11. bootsmann ◴[] No.40207793{3}[source]
The markets are too small for DMA to apply IIRC
12. prmoustache ◴[] No.40207809{3}[source]
> In this case the iPad is actually not big enough but the EU has chosen to regulate anyway.

They just realized that Apple was full of shit and trying to circumvent the law by differenciating iPadOS and iOS in the same arbitrary way you think the EU is working.

It is rarely a good strategy to play the smart ass in front of authority.

13. wiseowise ◴[] No.40207815{3}[source]
iPad is as dominant in tablet space as iPhone in phones, why is it not big enough?
replies(1): >>40207879 #
14. threeseed ◴[] No.40207823{6}[source]
a) EC isn't following the pre-defined rules for what is a gatekeeper. They just made up new ones. Hence my point.

b) EC never said that iPads and iPhones are the same platform.

replies(1): >>40207888 #
15. HeatrayEnjoyer ◴[] No.40207830{3}[source]
It wasn't arbitrary at all.

>The Commission's investigation found that Apple presents the features of a gatekeeper in relation to iPadOS, as among others:

>Apple's business user numbers exceeded the quantitative threshold elevenfold, while its end user numbers were close to the threshold and are predicted to rise in the near future.

>End users are locked-in to iPadOS. Apple leverages its large ecosystem to disincentivise end users from switching to other operating systems for tablets.

>Business users are locked-in to iPadOS because of its large and commercially attractive user base, and its importance for certain use cases, such as gaming apps.

>On the basis of the findings of the investigation, the Commission concluded that iPadOS constitutes an important gateway for business users to reach end users, and that Apple enjoys an entrenched and durable position with respect to iPadOS. Apple has now six months to ensure full compliance with the DMA obligations as applied to iPadOS.

16. tpm ◴[] No.40207853{3}[source]
Yes, but the number of their EU users are too low for that: https://www.trueachievements.com/n52977/xbox-store-eu-users
17. ◴[] No.40207869{3}[source]
18. littlestymaar ◴[] No.40207874{3}[source]
The distinction between both OS and app stores is entirely arbitrary as well, and the EC is just not buying the argument that this is a different product and should be treated differently.

Edit: looks like the EU didn't even bother challenging the arbitrary distinction between both OS, since the iPad crosses the threshold for business users by itself, it's submitted to DMA on its own.

replies(1): >>40210074 #
19. jonplackett ◴[] No.40207879{4}[source]
Just that less people buy tablets than phones. As a percentage of market share iPad probably the same or higher (guess). But in absolute numbers lower.
20. littlestymaar ◴[] No.40207888{7}[source]
No they don't and if they did Apple could bring the case in front of CJEU.
replies(1): >>40209329 #
21. flohofwoe ◴[] No.40207906{3}[source]
They definitely are, and I bet they're already further down the checklist.
22. mschuster91 ◴[] No.40207922{4}[source]
Consoles are not defined as general-purpose computers (except for a time, the PS3), and there aren't many complaints from the game industry at large about access discrimination or unaffordable devkits any more, there's tons of indie games for just about every major platform these days. So, too much effort for too little gain, there is no artificial competition impediments any more.

The only complaints tend to come from gamers - DRM, "console exclusive" titles and lootboxes, mostly, but of these three the only realistic field where the EU can/will/should intervene is the lootbox crap.

replies(1): >>40208087 #
23. flohofwoe ◴[] No.40207934{3}[source]
If you squint enough, iPhones and iPads are really the same thing (along with all other 'iXXX' devices).
24. vundercind ◴[] No.40207965[source]
A couple months shy of five years?
25. throwaway290 ◴[] No.40208087{5}[source]
It's the same for iPad, not defined as general purpose, no complaints about unaffordavle devkits (xcode is free), tons of indie apps.
replies(2): >>40208212 #>>40208214 #
26. mr_tombuben ◴[] No.40208138{3}[source]
They most likely are, but Microsoft actually does allow sideloading on Xbox in some capacity.
replies(1): >>40208304 #
27. physicsguy ◴[] No.40208212{6}[source]
Xcode is free but a developer account isn't (nor is an Xbox Dev account either for that matter)
replies(1): >>40208397 #
28. flumpcakes ◴[] No.40208214{6}[source]
The iPad was heavily marketed as a computer replacement so definitely is supposed to be "general purpose" device. Many people I know don't use a laptop or desktop at all, and just use their iPad.
replies(1): >>40209283 #
29. ReptileMan ◴[] No.40208234{3}[source]
Consoles are (still and mostly) singe purpose devices. While I do approve force opening every Turing complete device to side loading - game consoles are way down in the worst offenders list.
30. nox101 ◴[] No.40208298{3}[source]
It's control of the market that matters. Apple (and Google) each effectively control 40%-60% of the world market on digital goods. Pay Apple 30% for your app and 15-30% for all digital goods. That's unacceptable because their market is so large. 2 billion+ devices each (or is it 3 billion now?) 100s of thousands of companies are under their thumb. Don't follow their rules, loose 50% of your entire market. Do follow their rules, lose all your profit.

Sony/Nintendo/Microsoft's markets 2 orders of magnitude smaller and effect 3-4 orders of magnitude less companies.

replies(1): >>40209268 #
31. rezonant ◴[] No.40208304{4}[source]
I don't believe that's true. Can you provide some details? There are some programs indie devs can use to get software on Xbox, but they require approval from MS, which is the opposite of side loading.
replies(1): >>40208440 #
32. agos ◴[] No.40208317[source]
Apple's effort to distinguish between iPadOS and iOS has never fooled anyone
33. bpye ◴[] No.40208397{7}[source]
You can sideload apps with a free account, but only 3 signed at once and for a max of 7 days. There are also some entitlements you can’t use.
replies(1): >>40213358 #
34. ThatPlayer ◴[] No.40208440{5}[source]
It's a separate developer mode you can boot into locks you out of retail games. You can even do RetroArch (emulators): https://youtu.be/2uZu1hITwy0
replies(1): >>40209497 #
35. stale2002 ◴[] No.40208549{3}[source]
Well, only if they have the extremely large amount of users that is required for the gatekeeper status to cover them.
36. camillomiller ◴[] No.40208677[source]
The number of user is the important metric. I doubt VisionOS will quickly get to the threshold that would make the EU deem it a gatekeeping piece of software.
37. massysett ◴[] No.40208739{4}[source]
Because I should have that choice. Government should not make this decision for me. If it’s important to me that I have devices I fully own, I should seek that out. If I like the products and prices that result from walled-garden business models, I should be able to choose them.
replies(1): >>40208819 #
38. rsynnott ◴[] No.40208796[source]
> combined with Apple's efforts to distinguish between 'iPadOS' and 'iOS', would be enough to get them a win on this point

I mean, regulators aren't stupid; just because Apple rebranded iOS on iPads to 'iPadOS' a few years ago, presumably seeing the writing on the wall, you shouldn't expect the EC to go "oh, well, the company we're regulating _says_ it's a different thing, so it must be a different thing".

replies(1): >>40209370 #
39. lupusreal ◴[] No.40208819{5}[source]
You will have the choice of installing or not installing the software you wish. The "choice" as you're describing it is a symptom of Stockholm Syndrome.
replies(1): >>40208918 #
40. rsynnott ◴[] No.40208822{4}[source]
Last year, 7.4 million games consoles were sold in Europe. And 57 million iPhones (as far as I can see they don't report numbers on iPads). Like, I think it's fairly obvious why they concentrated on iOS first.
41. rsynnott ◴[] No.40208835{3}[source]
I mean, I think they're just not buying Apple's claim that iOS on the phone and iOS on the iPad are different things. If they _were_ to accept this, it would be a slippery slope - coming soon: iOS Smol for the smaller phones. It's totally different, we promise.
42. jbjohns ◴[] No.40208843{4}[source]
Why are you presenting something that happened as entirely one sided? This move means the end of an enforced, curated walled garden for iOS. This will mean a race to the bottom for iPad apps. Which, of course, means even more ads (since everything must be paid for one way or another). It likely means iPad prices go up even more because now they're forced to support configurations they've never tested.

For me personally, all of the above is the cost and what I get is something I wasn't using and didn't miss (if I want to install things outside the walled garden, I use a my Mac not a mobile device).

replies(1): >>40259274 #
43. massysett ◴[] No.40208918{6}[source]
I might not want that choice. That requires that I use my brain as I use the device and not do the harmful thing. Or maybe I want to hand the device to my child and be assured that she cannot install software, or use it as a publicly-accessible kiosk and be assured members of the public can’t break it. People who have handed Windows PCs to software illiterates and have to constantly return to eradicate crapware understand this problem.

Also, it costs the vendor to implement support for installing other software - resources the vendor could have spent on features I value, rather than features I don’t want. If only a government didn’t dictate to the vendor what it should do, stripping the vendor and the user of the power to decide for themselves.

replies(3): >>40209096 #>>40209399 #>>40259215 #
44. toyg ◴[] No.40209037{5}[source]
> There are no rules that are governing what is or isn't a gatekeeper.

Tell me you've not actually read the regulation without telling me you've not read the regulation.

45. wasmitnetzen ◴[] No.40209056{3}[source]
It's purely arbitrary to say iPadOS is a separate thing. They could just say there's an iPadAirOS, and an iPadProOS, or an iPadAir64GBOS, or ...
46. wasmitnetzen ◴[] No.40209085{5}[source]
There's literally a law, in a functional democracy. Doesn't get more rules-based than that.
47. lupusreal ◴[] No.40209096{7}[source]
Having a choice will not harm you. The "brainpower" required to stick to one appstores is virtually nil, evidenced by the vast majority of android users sticking with only the play store. You don't want other people to have that choice because you're a sycophant for a corporation.
replies(1): >>40209210 #
48. ghusto ◴[] No.40209124[source]
Because it doesn't meet the criteria. To summarise heavily, they are:

- Size criteria:

    Have an annual turnover in the European Economic Area (EEA) of at least €7.5 billion in each of the last three financial years, or

    Have a market capitalization of at least €75 billion, and

    Provide the same core platform service in at least three EU countries.
- Control an important gateway:

    Provide a core platform service which is an important gateway for business users to reach end users.
- Entrenched and durable position:

    Enjoy an entrenched and durable position on the market, operationalized by having had at least 45 million monthly active end users and 10,000 yearly business users of the same core platform service in the EEA in the last three years.
In fact, the EU has admitted that iPads do not meet the criteria, and are making an explicit exception to include them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm _very_ happy about this, but you asked ;)

replies(1): >>40209986 #
49. massysett ◴[] No.40209210{8}[source]
So if Android already offers the choice you seek, why does government need to make Apple offer that choice?
replies(2): >>40209464 #>>40211997 #
50. shuckles ◴[] No.40209268{4}[source]
What is the market for digital goods and how does PC distribution factor into your definition?
replies(1): >>40248963 #
51. shuckles ◴[] No.40209283{7}[source]
iPad marketing has historically focused on how it's _not_ a computer, so if people bought the marketing that is an implicit indication that they weren't looking for a general purpose computer.
replies(1): >>40210602 #
52. shuckles ◴[] No.40209329{8}[source]
If the unqualified existence of judicial remedy justified any arbitrary bureaucratic action, the world would be a much worse place (and indeed countries where bureaucrats make up rules to suit their whims and your only recourse is the judiciary tend to be dysfunctional).
replies(1): >>40209444 #
53. shuckles ◴[] No.40209370[source]
If this is your logic, then you must believe regulators are stupid because the EC indeed recognized iPadOS as a distinct platform. In addition, the insinuation that Apple diverged iOS and iPadOS six years ago in anticipation of legislation that would not be submitted for another year and a half requires more evidence than you provide.
54. littlestymaar ◴[] No.40209379{6}[source]
> The EC decides what the rules for defining a gatekeeper are, they invented the designation.

It's more complicated than this: the EC has the initiative for legislation in the EU but the text they submit is later amended and voted by both the European Parliament and the Council (representing member states) so it's not true that the EC defines the rules. And both the member states and the European Parliament are pretty jealous of their prerogatives in the decision process so you can be sure that the EC cannot have arbitrary power that bypasses the Council and the Parliament.

55. 76SlashDolphin ◴[] No.40209399{7}[source]
If you don't want that choice you don't have to enable the feature. Installation from Unknown Sources in Android is off by default and requires a user to explicitly go into the settings and find the obscure toggle, which in recent times has proven to be a big enough deterrent that there don't appear to be any recent mass-scale attacks using this vector. On top of that Android and Windows both have fairly comprehensive parental controls, which can disable the entire option of installing non-approved software, so that point is moot.

And the resources needed to make an app installer are not nearly as high as you make it out to be because iOS already has the mechanism to install signed .ipas. All that's needed in theory is a check to disable signing (which they already have implemented in MacOS) and to add a few pages to the Settings app, which surely shouldn't be an issue for a tech company of Apple's size. And if you argue that it might break some spaghetti code then maybe that should be fixed anyways and it's doing them a favour.

56. littlestymaar ◴[] No.40209444{9}[source]
You are making things up: there is no arbitrary action at all here. The EC must abide to the DMA and have no power to overcome it. If they did it would basically be a coup from the Commission against the Parliament and the Council, and you can be sure that member states would not stay silent against it (but don't worry it's not going to happen, as the balance of power is clearly not in favor of the Commission).

I'm just using the CJEU as an illustration that Apple themselves doesn't believe in the “arbitrary rules” narrative as they aren't even fighting in court.

Also, you're trying to use the “bureaucrates” card here, but Apple executives are bureaucrates too, and Apple's management of sanctions and their habits of shutting down user accounts without recourse shows that their own bureaucracy is closer to the one from authoritarian regimes than anything else.

57. 76SlashDolphin ◴[] No.40209464{9}[source]
Because there are already users with Apple devices and those users might have been locked into using Apple's ecosystem for other reasons (already purchased apps, already owning Apple accessories that don't work with other devices, etc).

As an anecdote myself, the main reason I haven't switched to a Galaxy S24 is because my Airpods work amazingly with my iPhone and Macbook, and my Apple Watch only works with iPhones. But very often I sorely miss having Termux, NewPipe, Tachiyomi, a non-gimped version of GBoard, Syncthing, a sensible launcher, and probably other things that I can't remember off the top of my head. I've decided that I value the Apple system more than the value I get from those apps but this regulation means I get to have my cake and eat it too.

58. rezonant ◴[] No.40209497{6}[source]
Interesting! Thanks!
59. Kbelicius ◴[] No.40209986{3}[source]
EU isn't making an exception in this case. DMA empowers the commission to investigate, and even declare as gatekeepers, products that do not meet the quantitative thresholds on the basis of qualitative assessment.

Following this decision EU Commissioner Thierry Breton said: “We continue monitoring market developments and will not hesitate to open new investigations should other services below the thresholds present characteristics to be considered important gateways for business users,”.

per the commission iPad passes the threshold for business users elevenfold.

60. Kbelicius ◴[] No.40210074{4}[source]
> looks like the EU didn't even bother challenging the arbitrary distinction between both OS, since the iPad crosses the threshold for business users by itself, it's submitted to DMA on its own.

While it does pass the threshold for business user the threshold, I think, is end users and business users. But that doesn't matter at all since the EU commission can declare a service as a gatekeeper, after an investigation, even if it had both business and end users bellow the threshold.

61. troupo ◴[] No.40210602{8}[source]
Here's iPad marketing: https://www.apple.com/ipad/why-ipad/

--- start quote ---

Yes, it does that. And then some.

iPad is so versatile, it’s more than up to any task. Whether you’re working on a project, expressing your creativity, or playing an immersive game, iPad is a fun and powerful way to get it done. Here are just a few of the countless things you can do with iPad.

--- end quote ---

And it has historically been "it's like a computer, but in tablet form".

Here's how Apple introduced iPad Pro just a year after it introduced iPad as a product: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2015/09/09Apple-Introduces-iP...

--- start quote ---

The new iPad Pro will enable a new generation of advanced apps for everything from productivity, design, illustration, engineering and medical, to education, gaming and entertainment.

The innovative Apple Pencil and new Smart Keyboard enable users ... making iPad Pro ideal for everything from professional productivity to advanced 3D design.

--- end quote ---

Or in 2016 here's Apple announcing how it will transform businesses with Deloitte: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2016/09/apple-and-deloitte-te...

--- start quote ---

Deloitte is creating a first-of-its-kind Apple practice with over 5,000 strategic advisors who are solely focused on helping businesses change the way they work across their entire enterprise, from customer-facing functions such as retail, field services and recruiting, to R&D, inventory management and back-office systems.

The new offering will help customers discover the highest impact possibilities within their industries and quickly develop custom solutions through rapid prototyping.

--- end quote ---

etc. etc.

62. talldayo ◴[] No.40211997{9}[source]
Because Apple is not necessarily entitled to an anticompetitive market just to provide product differentiation.
63. ◴[] No.40213358{8}[source]
64. nox101 ◴[] No.40248963{5}[source]
That doesn't really change much. Assuming the numbers are correct, there are 6 billion people have smartphones and 2 billion have PCs. That still means Google and Apple collectively control the majority of world's digital distribution. I suspect many of those PCs are not used nearly as much as the phones as well and have far less digital content on them (apps/music/movies/games/books)
65. beretguy ◴[] No.40259215{7}[source]
> That requires that I use my brain

There, you fell into a trap of your own making.

66. beretguy ◴[] No.40259274{5}[source]
> This move means the end of an enforced, curated walled garden for iOS.

Great! (Imagine having wallgardened Windows computer where you could not install whatever you want).

> This will mean a race to the bottom for iPad apps. Which, of course, means even more ads

iOS store is already at the bottom. Everything is with ads or subscription based. More ads won’t scare me because I won’t use app with any ads. If app offers one time purchase - I’ll buy it if I like it. Examples of apps I bought: Structured, Bobby, ArtStudio, MusicStudio.

> if I want to install things outside the walled garden, I use a my Mac not a mobile device

What if Apple decided you cannot install apps outdide off their App Store on a Mac neither? What would your “Apple-defending” argument be then? It’s NOT a far fetched idea. Microsoft tries it with Windows S Mode and they currently constantly threaten people when they download software from internet about how dangerous it may be, trying to scare people into using their store.

replies(1): >>40264304 #
67. jbjohns ◴[] No.40264304{6}[source]
>Great! (Imagine having wallgardened Windows computer where you could not install whatever you want).

Again, you are presenting this as if it has only one side to it. I need a computer that has no walled garden for certain kinds of work. For other kinds of work I'm happy to know I can't break it. Even more important, I'm happy when my parents can't break the one I buy them.

>More ads won’t scare me because I won’t use app with any ads. If app offers one time purchase - I’ll buy it if I like it.

As long as such an option exists. But in a true race to the bottom situation, there may not be anyone willing to invest in developing an app and then selling for a one time purchase. One time purchase is a model that's nearly dead anyway.

>What if Apple decided you cannot install apps outdide off their App Store on a Mac neither?

This I wouldn't accept because I can't. It's a development machine for me. But an iPad is a consumption device, I need the thing to just always work.