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    693 points hienyimba | 23 comments | | HN request time: 0.967s | source | bottom
    1. jsiepkes ◴[] No.28522995[source]
    I guess stripe wasn't kidding when they said they would disrupt online payments.

    On a more serious note; How much further is society going to allow this kind of thing? Hiding behind templated e-mails without any explanation. Disrupting people's lives who become collateral damage with no way out.

    replies(5): >>28523050 #>>28523128 #>>28523145 #>>28523324 #>>28524929 #
    2. afarrell ◴[] No.28523050[source]
    For as long as it permits companies to hire fallible humans and to write machine learning models with false positive rates.
    replies(1): >>28523139 #
    3. amelius ◴[] No.28523128[source]
    > On a more serious note; How much further is society going to allow this kind of thing?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ombudsman

    > The typical duties of an ombudsman are to investigate complaints and attempt to resolve them, usually through recommendations (binding or not) or mediation. Ombudsmen sometimes also aim to identify systemic issues leading to poor service or breaches of people's rights. At the national level, most ombudsmen have a wide mandate to deal with the entire public sector, and sometimes also elements of the private sector (for example, contracted service providers). In some cases, there is a more restricted mandate, for example with particular sectors of society.

    replies(1): >>28523552 #
    4. nicoburns ◴[] No.28523139[source]
    The machine learning models with false positives aren't the problem. The lack of a timely appeals process that involves a human is.
    replies(2): >>28523237 #>>28525092 #
    5. lordlic ◴[] No.28523145[source]
    Why would "society" care whether company A makes money instead of company B? This kind of thing is only remotely concerning to, like, VCs and tech workers hoping to strike it rich in the startup game.
    replies(1): >>28523523 #
    6. jtbayly ◴[] No.28523237{3}[source]
    But that’s why the prices are so low.

    Society will put up with it as long as it works most of the time, because algorithms without humans are cheap.

    replies(2): >>28523285 #>>28523296 #
    7. syshum ◴[] No.28523285{4}[source]
    stripe's prices / fees are not really that much lower, they do have great profit margins though
    8. nicoburns ◴[] No.28523296{4}[source]
    I'm not sure about that. The companies employing these kind of techniques are typically making huge profits. I suspect supply and demand would dictate that a bunch of the cost came out of those
    9. h0nd ◴[] No.28523324[source]
    I rather trust cryptography (and its currencies) than be dependent on VISA or similar.
    replies(2): >>28523648 #>>28523871 #
    10. luckylion ◴[] No.28523523[source]
    That's a weird take. Society wants stability. Having large companies companies use a random number generator to determine whether they will arbitrarily blacklist (and thereby try to destroy) smaller companies isn't leading to stability.

    Yes, society doesn't break down. Just as it doesn't break down if 1% of people were murdered each year. But society won't accept 1% being murdered. And once it's public enough, they'll also not accept that companies do stuff like that. Case in point: banks are tightly regulated exactly because of that, we need to rely on them to handle money efficiently, so we don't want randomness in their processes. Maybe it's time that Stripe & friends get more regulatory oversight as well, since they don't seem to be capable of managing themselves.

    replies(1): >>28548400 #
    11. jsiepkes ◴[] No.28523552[source]
    I don't want to sound too cynical but I don't know of an ombudsman which has binding authority. Here in the Netherlands all ombudsman I know are non-binding.

    I personally know of 2 dealings with an Ombudsman in the Netherlands. One involved me personally and another one of a good friend. In both cases the ombudsman advised in our favor. In both cases the reaction on the advice was: "Thanks for the advice, ombudsman, but we are not going to act on it.".

    A non-binding ombudsman is in my experience just a paper tiger to make an organization look good and I have never seen a binding one.

    replies(1): >>28523609 #
    12. maccard ◴[] No.28523609{3}[source]
    Ive had an experience with an Ombudsman in the UK. I was stuck in a loop with a major broadband provider in the UK who were giving me the run around. I contacted the ombudsman and within 14 days of my first email the company resolved the issue, (after 4 months of back and forth before that). Despite being non binding, the moment they were involved my problem was resolved.
    replies(1): >>28523967 #
    13. tonyarkles ◴[] No.28523648[source]
    As a consumer, do you trust cryptocurrencies to get you a refund if the seller fails to deliver the product you've ordered?
    replies(1): >>28523790 #
    14. dustymcp ◴[] No.28523790{3}[source]
    this question always gets avoided, its great for the seller but the buyer is in a way wprse spot than before.
    replies(1): >>28524988 #
    15. _wldu ◴[] No.28523871[source]
    I have considered this too. The issue I have encountered is that the vast majority of potential users/customers do not have and cannot quickly obtain Monero or Bitcoin or whatever.

    Most all of them have VISA cards.

    Expecting customers to carefully create a wallet, an exchange account (so they can buy the crypto) and considering how difficult that can be (even for technical users) is really unreasonable. When people can use crypto as easily as they can use a credit card, then it would be an alternative.

    IMPO, this problem is very similar to the PGP problem. You'll get a lot less email if you only accept PGP encrypted and signed emails. You cannot expect your customers to do that. They won't, but they will send you plaintext emails from their Gmail accounts, just as quickly as they will pay using a VISA card.

    16. ceejayoz ◴[] No.28523967{4}[source]
    Yup. Sometimes knowing who to talk to (and access to them) is more important than legal authority to force something.
    17. Throwawayaerlei ◴[] No.28524929[source]
    How much further is society going to allow this kind of thing?

    "what these corporations are doing is literally destroying the basis for a developed economy.... [They] have all collectively routed around the rule of law which is necessary for sustained economic growth over time.

    In countries with strong rule of law:

    1. Property rights over land, equipment, and personal items are clear and protected by law.

    2. Contracts between people, businesses, and the government are effectively enforced by the legal system.

    3. Political accountability is high and corruption is low.

    4. Business regulations are clear and enforced in a transparent manner.

    In such environments people make long-term investments and build large organizations. In contrast, if the property rights and contracts are not enforced and the business regulations are not clear, most of the economy consists of small family owned firms with little modern equipment. A high-tech, prosperous economy would not develop.

    Effectively, there are no contracts anymore in the digital economy. There is no predictability anymore. There is no accountability. There is no responsibility. There are no requirements for performance anymore. In sum, the US digital economy is rapidly becoming the equivalent of a third-world economy, complete with crony capitalism and digital robber barons."

    18. jimmydorry ◴[] No.28524988{4}[source]
    It requires a paradigm shift. Automated escrow services could handle almost every dispute where both parties are honest, APIs for validating shipping and handling of goods/egoods could handle another large chunk, and human dispute resolution could handle the remainder.

    Such a service could be offered by the legacy payment providers.

    I have used such services in the past, but still feel the field is ripe for disruption.

    19. naasking ◴[] No.28525092{3}[source]
    I'm curious how many human reviews are triggered after ML flags a problem. If it's nearly 100%, why have the ML step at all?
    replies(1): >>28525658 #
    20. colinmhayes ◴[] No.28525658{4}[source]
    Because the algorithm only flags like less than 1% of users?
    replies(2): >>28525685 #>>28525950 #
    21. ◴[] No.28525685{5}[source]
    22. naasking ◴[] No.28525950{5}[source]
    Maybe I wasn't clear. I meant, why have the ML algorithm disable the account automatically if human review happens nearly 100% of the time, rather than simply have ML flag the account for human review, and let them decide whether to disable the account.
    23. lordlic ◴[] No.28548400{3}[source]
    I think you're overstating the importance of small companies to the vast majority of people. If Amazon comes along and annihilates all the small bookstores by undercutting their prices, people will just get their books from Amazon. That happened; that's a fact. It doesn't really matter to anyone except the bookstore owners who are now annoyed that they can't make profits anymore. It has nothing to do with "stability."