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293 points doener | 34 comments | | HN request time: 1.153s | source | bottom
1. macspoofing ◴[] No.23831020[source]
The China-US tensions are not going to get better, and, in fact, will get worse as years go by. More and more nations will be forced to choose sides. It's not good and I'm not sure what a resolution even looks like.
replies(6): >>23831037 #>>23831065 #>>23831074 #>>23831083 #>>23831126 #>>23831142 #
2. flattone ◴[] No.23831037[source]
My 'being honest with ourselves' view is we know whats going to happen and its going to suck.
3. ◴[] No.23831065[source]
4. mytailorisrich ◴[] No.23831074[source]
The alternative to Huawei in 5G is either Nokia or Ericsson.

As an European I don't what to think that the US seems so against kit from a Chinese company and completely fine with kit from an European company.

They should be worried about both. We also have a long term world domination plan (version 2.0)... ;)

replies(3): >>23831129 #>>23831152 #>>23831185 #
5. strogonoff ◴[] No.23831083[source]
Perhaps having to take a side in this is not necessarily a negative? Better sooner rather than later.
replies(1): >>23831181 #
6. est31 ◴[] No.23831126[source]
A resolution is difficult. China is a totalitarian country and totalitarianism needs to be fought, but I doubt that a democratic China would be any different when it comes to their claims to the world. They'd want to expand just as they want to expand now. Just look at the various western colonial empires of history. Many of them were democracies in some form or fashion.

Any long term resolution to the conflict has to involve the realization that China has had 100 bad years and now has a giant comeback. And that the US has had 60 good years but now large parts of it decline.

replies(3): >>23831239 #>>23832132 #>>23836632 #
7. ceilingcorner ◴[] No.23831129[source]
Maybe the fact that one is a totalitarian state and the other is an ally?
replies(1): >>23831621 #
8. room271 ◴[] No.23831142[source]
I'm not sure it's just a China-US thing. I think Europe will increasingly find itself taking a role. India too.

To clarify, while US-China superficially seem like the 'sides'. Really, what I think is happening is that the values of many (especially Western) countries around human rights, democracy, freedom of religion and expression, are coming into conflict with a new kind of Chinese authoritarianism that really doesn't care for these things and is quite willing to subjugate large groups of people in doing so (Tibet, Xinjiang, Hong Kong, claims to Taiwan, etc.).

replies(2): >>23831318 #>>23835987 #
9. culturestate ◴[] No.23831152[source]
> As an European I don't what to think that the US seems so against kit from a Chinese company and completely fine with jit from an European company.

The US would of course prefer that American technology be available, but since it's not then I suppose a partnership with two trusted allies is preferable to one with an untrusted adversary.

Nokia and Ericsson also aren't arms of the state widely believed (fairly or not) to actively facilitate global industrial and military espionage activities on behalf of a hostile government, so there's that.

replies(1): >>23831503 #
10. hrktb ◴[] No.23831181[source]
From a EU/UK perspective there’s no good coming from it.

It’s like being caught in a fight between your drunk uncle and your berserk cousin.

replies(1): >>23831211 #
11. jaekash ◴[] No.23831185[source]
The only way this makes sense is abstract of any value judgements, and yes sure, if we in the west ignore that everything about the Chinese Communist Party and how it conducts itself is an affront to our values then it makes no difference. But we are humans, we have values, we make value judgements.
12. mytailorisrich ◴[] No.23831211{3}[source]
There is definitely good coming out of it for the EU.

Europe does not have to align with either side. It is a superpower in its own right if it gets its shit together (one can dream).

replies(3): >>23831385 #>>23831703 #>>23836484 #
13. magicsmoke ◴[] No.23831239[source]
Maybe the long term resolution involves recognizing that even if China is totalitarian, it's only within it's own borders. Unlike the cold war days, there's no race to convert countries to Communism or Democracy. China's main mode of interaction with other countries is through trade, it doesn't play the game of political/ideological proselytism. If democracy loses ground around the world, that's due more to it's own failings than a concerted push by China to replace it with totalitarianism. Spend more time and funds fixing the economic inequalities plaguing democratic society than wasting it on ineffective bogeymen like confronting China half a world away.
replies(1): >>23831690 #
14. Waterfall ◴[] No.23831383{3}[source]
1RMB has been deposited into your bank account
replies(1): >>23836646 #
15. hrktb ◴[] No.23831385{4}[source]
This is not some neutral decision, but a move forced by the fallout of US sanctions, that the UK can’t do anything about.

They’re giving up a partnership they entered after independently reviewing the equipment, I can’t see how it is a good outcome for them.

replies(1): >>23831498 #
16. ◴[] No.23831503{3}[source]
17. kwistzhaderach ◴[] No.23831531{3}[source]
What makes you think he’s American?
18. orwin ◴[] No.23831621{3}[source]
But for at least Portugal and Greece, and maybe Italy and some eastern European countries, the ally is china since 2014?

While Obama made his move over SE Asia, the CCP applied the strategy they used in Australia with the PIGS. And while Trump very successfully destroyed what Obama tried to do in SE Asia, the CCP installed foreign military bases near center of trade in the Indian ocean while gaining political goodwill with middle east poorest countries. Most of Iraki oil is sold to China.

I'm not claiming i know what should be done, i'm just saying that China have already a lot of political allies and try to gain more, and now reached europe.

replies(1): >>23831723 #
19. hrktb ◴[] No.23831683{6}[source]
The EU by design is not a single unit with governing power that would counteract the US or China. It’s not a federation but a union, each member has to manage their own international relations.

France for instance is about to take the same steps as UK, and get out of Huawei deals within the next years.

replies(1): >>23833276 #
20. jaekash ◴[] No.23831690{3}[source]
> Maybe the long term resolution involves recognizing that even if China is totalitarian, it's only within it's own borders.

If it was not for china North Korea and possibly Pakistan would not have had nuclear weapons now. So no, it is not just in it's own borders.

replies(1): >>23836510 #
21. jaekash ◴[] No.23831723{4}[source]
> But for at least Portugal and Greece, and maybe Italy and some eastern European countries, the ally is china since 2014?

Maybe financially, but not ideologically. Not sure how far this "allegiance will hold".

22. chosenbreed37 ◴[] No.23832132[source]
> A resolution is difficult. China is a totalitarian country and totalitarianism needs to be fought, but I doubt that a democratic China would be any different when it comes to their claims to the world.

I wonder about this. Why does totalitarianism in a sovereign nation need to be fought? For those of us considering a democratic China...why do we think the country would fare better as a democracy? The Chinese civilisation is goes back thousands of years. Could the system they have now be the cumulative effect of all they have gone through to date? In other words it has evolved and generally serves its people. It may evolve into something else (possibly resembling Western democracies) but it may not. I don't particularly think it has to.

replies(2): >>23840961 #>>23841998 #
23. mytailorisrich ◴[] No.23833276{7}[source]
One of the main goals of the EU is to counteract the US and China. Individual member states no longer manage their own international relations when it comes to trade and try to find a common position on other issues.

The issue of a deeper integration is an old one and evolving, but the trend is more integration.

It is becoming more and more important for Europe to stand on its own two feet and be independent in all aspects.

There are benefits in having the other superpowers locked in conflict if you can stay out of it as much as possible and further your interests while they are distracted.

The UK, on the other hand, is in a very weak position. China will feel comfortable retaliating strongly, and the US will probably extract a sweet trade deal from them.

24. Wohlf ◴[] No.23835987[source]
The annexation of Tibet was in 1951, claims to Taiwan have always been there, and the subjugation of millions is nothing new (Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution were in the 50s and 60s).

I think people are just waking up to the reality that the opening of China will not automatically lead to greater liberalism as was predicted.

25. hardlianotion ◴[] No.23836484{4}[source]
I think it needs to be a stronger political entity in its own right for that. EU foreign policy is hamstrung by very different foreign policy objectives of member states.
26. franklampard ◴[] No.23836510{4}[source]
Source?
27. sudosysgen ◴[] No.23836632[source]
What is the solution for totalitarianism? Destruction of the country, plunging millions into poverty, for it to be replaced by a sham democracy where all the levers of power are behind US interests? How did that work out in Iraq?

If you want China to stop being totalitarian, then you should wait until most Chinese citizens decide that they don't approve of the ruling party, and then let them decide what to replace it with. You cannot force democracy.

replies(1): >>23841135 #
28. dang ◴[] No.23836646{4}[source]
Please don't do this here.
29. dang ◴[] No.23836651{3}[source]
Hey, please don't break the site guidelines like this. We ban account that do that.

If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules when posting here, we'd be grateful.

30. arp242 ◴[] No.23840961{3}[source]
If you see your neighbour kick their dog (or even child) would you stand idly by and say "well, it seems to work for them" or would you take action?
31. rafaelm ◴[] No.23841135{3}[source]
Yeah, I'm sure the CCP is going to let the citizens decide...
replies(1): >>23841411 #
32. sudosysgen ◴[] No.23841411{4}[source]
The idea is that if Chinese citizens are going to want democracy, they will have to take it. There is no way anyone else can give it to them. Least of any the US, and possibly the worst way to get a Marxist-Leninist state (this time, four times the size of the USSR!) to relinquish power is to create economic isolation in the midst of an upcoming crisis of capitalism as we have already cut off a sizeable chunk of the world.

In any case, you can rest assured that if the Chinese have to choose between Yeltsin and the CCP, they will choose the latter 100% of the times. Democracy cannot be forced.

replies(1): >>23841926 #
33. ◴[] No.23841926{5}[source]
34. ◴[] No.23841998{3}[source]