You can't refuse to be scanned by ICE's facial recognition app, DHS document say

> If I was in the country legally I would want the best technology to confirm i am the person I say I am.

I'm in the country legally, and I don't care at all how often that is confirmed or by whom.

> What's the alternative? Human beings eyeballing a license a few seconds?

The alternative is dispensing with the notion that some people are illegal and must be purged, or even that this a legitimate function of government.

As long as the state can feign incompetence (let alone launder it with a facial recognition app), this power can easily grow to arbitrary executive authority.

I have no problem with faces being recognized; that's a normal part of living in society. Computers doing it is just a bit more efficient, as you point out. The trouble comes when the state uses it as a liability limiter for their crimes.

Stop apologizing for nazis

> If I was in the country legally I would want the best technology to confirm i am the person I say I am.

And do you believe that some secret ICE app is likely to be that best technology?

I have no reason to believe that ICE has any meaningful biometrics that would identify me as a citizen.

>>> Why wouldn't you want the most accurate method of identifying you?

But that's not what this is because it cannot be challenged. This is just an adjustable tool to arrest anyone and fits any need.

I want the assumption of innocence until proven guilty. I want to not be searched against my will and with no probable cause. I want my accuser named and my suspected crimes announced in a way that gives me the opportunity to defend myself. Basically, this denies all of that.

The “best technology” based on what?

> The alternative is dispensing with the notion that some people are illegal and must be purged, or even that this a legitimate function of government.

That's not an alternative at all. Countries are built by certain groups of people (citizens), based on some underlying principles, culture, values. To preserve that, citizens have the right to decide what kind of people they want to let in. Immigrating to US is a privilege, not a right, as it should be. There's nothing wrong with deporting illegal aliens as long as due process is followed (which I agree is not the case with ICE under Trump, but that's a separate discussion).

What if they scanned you and the result was illegal alien? How would you feel?

> A birth certificate is just a piece of paper so that's a bit of a red herring.

No, it isn't. Birth certificates are how we have proven citizenship in the United States almost since the founding of the Republic.

> ...an ICE officer may ignore evidence of American citizenship—including a birth certificate—if the app says the person is an alien...

What law gives ICE permission to ignore a document created through the authority of a co-sovereign government of our federal system? Responsibility for recording of births and deaths falls to the several States. If my state has issued a birth certificate documenting the fact of my birth, that is it per the 14th Amendment to the Constitution.

ICE is not a court; they do not make determinations of law. If I have a birth certificate or, even more arguably, a passport then that beats whatever cooked up bullshit ICE is spewing from a mobile device. ICE is not a prosecutor; they do not decide who has faked documents or who has real ones.

People need to stop apologizing for ICE vastly overstepping what they are permitted to do in their haste to become an internal secret police.

> A birth certificate is just a piece of paper so that's a bit of a red herring.

Man, remember when the entire right wing lost its shit for months on end over Obama's birth certificate? Truly a magical time to be alive...

Yeah, it's amazing how many people are so eager to ignore things like "probable cause" and "protection from unreasonable search and seizure."

ICE is 100% going around with the fucking skin color card from family guy and harassing anyone darker than tan. I hope to god that people start pushing back - I saw a video of them doing exactly this to some high school kids and it made my blood boil.

> which I agree is not the case with ICE under Trump, but that's a separate discussion

I find it hard to keep these discussions separate. If there is no humane way to deport illegal aliens in the volumes ICE is attempting, surely we must push back and say "stop". This facial recognition app is a farce, designed to give a veneer of correctness to racial profiling, and ICE must be prevented from using it.

except that ICE is not using those documents, they are using an app and then claiming the documents to be false

ICE is operating outside the bounds of law and basic human decency

ICE ignores those documents, even for citizens.

thats cute :)

The implication of using such an app (“the best technology”) is that it somehow has more accurate information. If the sum total of the information ICE has is just the standard government documents (and it is) then what is the point of this app?

> pretending to understand things

Yes, like pretending not to understand that ICE is intentionally bypassing the due process guaranteed by the constitution.

“ICE officials have told us that an apparent biometric match by Mobile Fortify is a ‘definitive’ determination of a person’s status and that an ICE officer may ignore evidence of American citizenship—including a birth certificate—if the app says the person is an alien,”

I'm willing to give ICE a little extra leeway right now because of the dire situation we face in terms of losing our nation by being swamped with uncontrolled immigration. The previous Administration sure had a big plan that they were very successful at executing. The mass influx has ruined two school districts in my area--they have had to spend ridiculous amounts of money on interpreters, the quality of education has fallen, and our state keeps coming up with more ways to tax us into oblivion while pandering to people who aren't even citizens! It all needs to stop for at least 10 years. If not, we will probably hyperinflate the currency (and may do so anyways--the damage is largely already done). I very much resent the Maoist approach to "tear everything down in order to seize control" type of power play. It is obscene and inhumane and uses poor people as pawns in a gambit to amass total control. That is not "democracy" that is anti-democratic in every possible way. They have continually chipped away at a citizen's franchise here in the US and now we are being taxed and inflated to death.

Yes, blame immigrants for the problems our politicians created. Gold star reasoning

Immigration rates have not drastically shifted in the last 4 years from the 20+ prior, averaging 1M a year, or .3% of the population. Without immigration, we are below replacement rates

By leeway, do you include the beating people and excessive use of force, or should those agents face consequences?

You said: "If I was in the country legally..."

A legal resident would say "As someone here legally..."

> ICE can use this information to confirm I am the person I say I am

1. You cast doubt on your legal status.

2. The APP says you are not here legally.

3. You have no opportunity to present those things proving you are here legally.

> It's amazing how much leftist discourse is just them not pretending to understand things, thus making discourse impossible.

It's amazing how much conservative dicourse is just them literally not understanding things, thus making discourse impossible.

Consider the literal evil stuff you support, discourse with you is 100% worthless.

How can you compare the use of this tech to the persecution of Chinese citizens in China but then say you’re “willing to give ICE a little extra leeway”?

“Yeah, I know this is terrible and inhumane, but like, my taxes are kind of high and I’ve got to blame someone. Immigrants seem like maybe they somehow caused all the problems as long as I don’t think about it very hard.”

Sure is weird that DHS claims two million illegal immigrants have left the United States this year but nothing seems to have gotten better yet. Probably just need more deportations. I bet that’ll fix everything.

> I find it hard to keep these discussions separate.

...because they're not separate discussions at all. There is no example in history of mass deportations being done according to a coherent rule of law. These two things are not of the same impetus; mass deportations are a power-grab, and the rule of law interferes with that.

The only way that a nation gets to a point where mass deportations are plausible (in the sense that there are a sufficient number of people who have entered or stayed without going through a state-prescribed process) is that there is already relative domestic tranquility (otherwise, the "problem" would have been noticed decades earlier).

In our case (in the USA), we have plenty of room, plenty of resources, a wonderful and diverse array of immigrant cultures, and the capacity to defend ourselves against bad actors on an individual and/or community level. There is no need whatsoever for a government thousands of miles away (whose authority is decreasingly recognized anyhow) to tell me who my neighbors can be.

It's borderline farcical.

If you continue to post abusively with troll accounts, we will ban your main account as well.

> Birth certificates are how we have proven citizenship in the United States almost since the founding of the Republic.

In the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, not everyone had a birth certificate: between one-half and three-quarters of births in the United States went unregistered.[1]

[1] https://www.jstor.org/stable/44285276

It's amazing how any dissent is labelled "leftist", when you can find plenty of examples of moderate, Republican, conservative and independent criticisms. "Leftists" has come to mean anyone who isn't 100% MAGA.

> I have a license and a passport, both which have a picture of me

> an ICE officer may ignore evidence of American citizenship—including a birth certificate—if the app says the person is an alien

You should be less credulous.

> It's not a stretch to say ICE can use this information to confirm I am the person I say I am.

ICE is yelling from the rooftops that they don't give a shit about this. It's a stretch to think they will use this information, regardless of can.

>Does that relate to removing illegal immigrants? My understanding is that illegals have limited rights. Also, all the things you go on about mostly come later on, during arraignment and during trial. Arguing with cops on the sidewalk is mostly just going to get you jammed up even harder. Probable cause is something for your lawyer to argue about later.

Okay, I'm officially confused.

IIUC, the ICE announcement says that their facial "recognition" results trump actual documents.

And given that for some groups, state-of-the-art facial recognition algorithms have a 35% false positive rate, that means that for every 100 people snatched up by ICE (with your understanding that "illegals have limited rights.") 30 of them are not who they think they are and being generous, that 10-15% of those are also undocumented despite not being properly identified by the facial "recognition," 25 out of every 100 people in that group arrested will be legal residents or citizens.

And since ICE says that they can ignore actual documents in favor of their "app," those citizens and legal residents may well be deported (to god knows where if they're actually born here) without due process. As such, the whole "Probable cause is something for your lawyer to argue about later." bit may well be irrelevant given your statement about illegals having limited rights.

If ICE assumes incorrectly that you're undocumented, even if you and multiple generations of your ancestors are all born in the US and you can prove it. They explicitly said they will ignore that proof.

As such, based on what ICE claims, you're contradicting yourself. Either folks scooped up by ICE have -- because ICE says so -- "limited rights," and don't require traditional due process for detention and deportation, how does one then get access to a lawyer or court?

I expect you can see why I'm confused about your seemingly contradictory arguments.

I may very well be missing some important detail(s) here. If you could help me to understand what I'm not getting, I'd really appreciate it.

> dire situation we face in terms of losing our nation by being swamped with uncontrolled immigration.

This dire-ness, it's recent and not something that's been going on since forever? It's something that the last person messed up, and it's an emergency that only the new person can fix, and it's such an emergency that we need to give them powers that WILL later be used against you? It's that dire?