Most active commenters
  • ACCount37(11)
  • sdeframond(5)
  • sigmoid10(4)

←back to thread

215 points XzetaU8 | 34 comments | | HN request time: 0.824s | source | bottom
1. ACCount37 ◴[] No.45081066[source]
Aging isn't even recognized as a disease yet, and it well should be.

Very little research currently goes into attacking aging directly - as opposed to handling things that are in no small part downstream from aging, such as heart disease. A big reason for poor "longevity gains" is lack of trying.

replies(4): >>45081119 #>>45081270 #>>45081570 #>>45081608 #
2. seanmcdirmid ◴[] No.45081119[source]
That’s kind of naive. Plenty of people definitely “try”, billionaires would love to live a few hundred more years. We know how aging occurs, there is degradation in DNA, telomeres shorten, and a bunch of other things. The main problem is that biological life simply can’t undergo overhauls like machines do, and we will probably just solve aging by creating successor beings that can.
replies(1): >>45081246 #
3. ACCount37 ◴[] No.45081246[source]
Just compare the effort and the investment that goes into fighting aging with what goes into fighting cancer.

You can't rely on billionaires to fix everything for you. The kind of research effort that would be required to make meaningful progress against aging would likely demand hundreds of billions, spent across decades. Few billionaires have the pockets deep enough to bankroll something like this, or the long term vision.

Getting aging recognized as a disease and a therapeutic target, and getting the initial effort on the scale of Human Genome Project would be a good starting point though.

If there was understanding that a drug "against aging" is desirable by the healthcare systems and can get approved, Big Pharma would have a reason to try - as opposed to developing drugs for other things and hopefully stumbling on something that makes progress against aging by an accident.

replies(2): >>45081308 #>>45081336 #
4. imtringued ◴[] No.45081270[source]
This would require extreme amounts of embryo selection and getting results will require multiple generations, nothing in your lifetime.

The biggest bottleneck is that humans evolved to have children in their 20s. After that age, the old compete with the young for resources, so there is no evolutionary incentive for humans to live indefinitely.

Aging past fertility is like momentum in stochastic gradient descent.

replies(1): >>45081320 #
5. imtringued ◴[] No.45081308{3}[source]
Bill Gates has enough money for effective longevity research. Longevity research isn't even particularly expensive.

The actual problem is that you would have to do selective breeding and genetic modification of humans the same way we do it with plants and animals. It is primarily an ethical problem.

replies(1): >>45081592 #
6. ACCount37 ◴[] No.45081320[source]
I'm sure there are longevity gains that can be attained with embryo selection or direct embryo genetic editing. Might even be some low-hanging fruit there. But I see no reason to believe this to be the only possible source of longevity gains.

Sure, the evolution may oppose longevity, but evolution can go eat shit and die. It still works on humans, but it works too slowly to be able to do too much - we can't rely on it to fix our problems, but it also wouldn't put up this much of a fight if we fixed our problems on our own.

7. sigmoid10 ◴[] No.45081336{3}[source]
Global investment in cancer research (not treatment) between 2016 and 2020 came in just under $25 billion [1]. That means someone like Elon could have financed basically all cancer research around the globe for a decade. Instead he bought twitter. And remember that the Forbes billionaires are not the most wealthy people in the world. They are just the ones living in countries with public company accounting. There is a lot of dark money in the Middle East and Russia. So it's not like they can't, it's more that this is still seen as a delusion or megalomania in these circles, since most anti aging research funded by billionaire happens very quitely by comparison. You won't hear them announce it like they do with e.g. malaria.

[1] https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanonc/article/PIIS1470-2...

replies(1): >>45081409 #
8. ACCount37 ◴[] No.45081409{4}[source]
That's consistent with what I said, yes.

Two decades of this kind of research spending add up to $100 billion. And most billionaires are closer to $5 billion rich than to $500 billion rich.

It would sure be nice to have an infinite money glitch billionaire who cares a lot about funding anti-aging research and lobbying for anti-aging efforts, the way Musk cares about space exploration and trolling people online. We're lucky that at least some neglected fields get billionaire attention like this. But we can't rely on that happening.

replies(1): >>45081539 #
9. sigmoid10 ◴[] No.45081539{5}[source]
The point is if anti-aging didn't have this edgy image in billionaire circles, there would be more than enough money to go around. If everyone agrees that we should get on this like we do certain other diseases, we could certainly tap into a lot of resources.
replies(3): >>45081644 #>>45082172 #>>45083176 #
10. sdeframond ◴[] No.45081570[source]
I wonder if I would really like to pour billions of taxpayer money into aging when we are not even able to live a basic healthy lifestyle.

Sleeping well, eating well and exercising does work. Science about this is well-established. So why arent we?

It would not raise the life expectancy to 100 years but it would considerably reduce the health burden on the economy.

replies(3): >>45081828 #>>45081834 #>>45085258 #
11. ACCount37 ◴[] No.45081592{4}[source]
Not necessarily. We already have drugs that can hit "genetic disease" targets in adults, and we can modify adult genomes to a minor degree.

Sure, it would be nigh impossible to do something like cram "genetic resistance to cancer" into a grown adult with current day tech, but there are other surfaces to attack in longevity.

12. Kinrany ◴[] No.45081608[source]
Aging itself is not a disease, it's just stuff falling into disrepair over time.

Age-related illnesses shouldn't be dismissed with "they're just old" of course but there's no reason to expect a single cause. Other than passage of time itself.

replies(1): >>45081667 #
13. ACCount37 ◴[] No.45081644{6}[source]
I don't think there would be "enough money" just from that, but I agree that it would sure help.

It's why I stress that aging should be recognized as a disease. If we had the likes of WHO and FDA in agreement that aging is unwanted and treating aging is desirable, even if it can't be done yet, it would shift the perception considerably.

It would make it easier for billionaires to contribute to anti-aging research as a philanthropic effort - but it would also open many doors in terms of research funding and corporate investment.

14. ACCount37 ◴[] No.45081667[source]
Cancer is "stuff falling into disrepair over time" too. Get enough faulty cells with DNA damage and one of them is going to make itself a problem. The only way to avoid cancer is to have something else kill you before you get it.

That's not a reason to say that cancer is somehow "not a disease". It obviously is. We don't want cancer. We fund efforts to research cancer and funnel money into better cancer treatments, and we get results.

Aging should get the same treatment.

replies(2): >>45081991 #>>45083717 #
15. HeadsUpHigh ◴[] No.45081828[source]
>Sleeping well, eating well and exercising does work. Science about this is well-established. So why arent we?

Those will give you at best another marginal decade. By all means worth doing but its not radical life extension. At the same time a young body can take lack of sleep and can physically perform even if not exercising much better than an old one. So there's more to it than just lifestyle.

replies(2): >>45082479 #>>45082579 #
16. ACCount37 ◴[] No.45081834[source]
Doesn't scale. If you could put "sleeping well, eating well and exercising" into a $0.25 once a week pill and make that available to everyone, it would work. As is, it doesn't.

We want solutions that can be scaled and rolled out broadly, and "basic healthy lifestyle" ain't it.

replies(1): >>45082459 #
17. vladms ◴[] No.45081991{3}[source]
Solving any of the existing diseases, will not result in significant upheaval of society.

I am not against trying to "solve aging", but I don't think we should think of it as just a disease, and there should be more plans on how to deal with the sudden "infinite" number of humans. While I may want to live forever, I would definitely not enjoy that in all circumstances.

replies(1): >>45082057 #
18. ACCount37 ◴[] No.45082057{4}[source]
Do you think that there's a single "aging" master switch that could be flipped to "off", resulting in zero aging and immortality for everyone forever?

That's beyond optimistic. What's more likely to happen is, we'll uncover some major pathways for aging and find a way to target them to slow aging down somewhat, at first.

People who get anti-aging treatments would live for longer, and would be healthier while they do. The adoption would be gradual, and it'll take a while for them to come down in price and proliferate worldwide - and it would still be up to people to decide whether they want them, although most doctors would recommend they do. The first generations of anti-aging treatments would allow people to live to the age of 100 fairly reliably, and remain healthier and more active while they do. Future generations would improve on that.

There will be no "sudden infinite number of humans" to deal with. Even if we started out tomorrow (for example, if it was confirmed that Ozempic has broad anti-aging effects), it'll take decades for this effect to become noticeable. Humanity can adapt to something like that easily.

19. dillydogg ◴[] No.45082172{6}[source]
Given the current state of the NIH, I'm not sure if we are "getting on this" with any diseases right now. I've seen quite a number of my colleagues end up retiring or stopping their research programs all together at a university that has its NIH funding halted for being politically insubordinate.
replies(1): >>45084560 #
20. sdeframond ◴[] No.45082459{3}[source]
Why not? What is not scalable about it, specifically ?

I mean, sure, it doesn't scale as well as a magic pill as a business. But is certainly is O(n) with the number of people involved.

replies(3): >>45082697 #>>45082795 #>>45083087 #
21. sdeframond ◴[] No.45082479{3}[source]
I would say it gives you +25 years of healthy lifespan.

Compare it to being obese, wich can happen very young and is in part determined by how you are fed when you are a baby/child.

22. carlosjobim ◴[] No.45082579{3}[source]
> Those will give you at best another marginal decade.

Those will give you an entire life. Living while being healthy is an entirely different life than surviving while being unhealthy.

23. waldohatesyou ◴[] No.45082697{4}[source]
The scaling challenge here comes from scaling across the various types of life situations and personality types out there. Some people work too much to be able to live a balance lifestyle. Other people just can’t summon the motivation.

Either way, a pill would scale better across all these people.

24. ACCount37 ◴[] No.45082795{4}[source]
The kind of solution that scales as "O(n) effect with the number of people involved", but isn't broadly implemented? It's usually at least O(n log n) on the effort required to actually involve those people. This vital input is the source of piss poor scaling in practice.

Why? Because there's a massive variation in people. Everyone who finds it "very easy" to as much as "sleep well, eat well and exercise" already does just that, and the implementation difficulty ramp up gets brutal quickly. It's simple to suggest and hard to execute.

Pharmaceutics are so valuable because they offer good sublinear scaling on many of the inputs. They're extremely hard to develop, but they're often well worth it, because the implementation scales in a way those "simple" solutions don't.

replies(1): >>45084921 #
25. strken ◴[] No.45083087{4}[source]
Just considering one component, what is stopping good sleep? Here's a random list of what I can think of:

- noise pollution

- lack of fitness

- stimulant use during the day

- inability to manage a clean, nice sleeping environment

- obesity and sleep apnea

- a partner who can't sleep

- heat or cold in your bedroom

- mental illness

So, just from that list, we see that we'd need to overhaul housing quality so everyone has quadruple glazing and an air-conditioner, stop them chugging coffee, get them help with their laundry, fix their fitness and cure their obesity (which are themselves caused by poor sleep), and get them into therapy.

That sounds hard! Also, we're already working on a lot of it, but it's generally difficult or impossible to fix all of those problems.

26. notahacker ◴[] No.45083176{6}[source]
Seems more like billionaires spending money on trying to live forever has an edgy image in non-billionaire cycles. Sure, maybe Gates and Buffet really aren't that interested in living forever, but the likes of Thiel and Musk aren't exactly noted for techno-pessimism or caring whether the average normie thinks they and some of their investments are creepy, and they absolutely have the dealflow and the connections to evaluate any promising life extension ideas. If they're still spending more on stuff like 140 characters, maybe the low hanging fruit just aren't that low
replies(1): >>45084621 #
27. Kinrany ◴[] No.45083717{3}[source]
Cancer at least has a shared mechanism at the level of human biology.
28. sigmoid10 ◴[] No.45084560{7}[source]
Trump might get the science out of america, but he won't be able to get rid of science in general. It will just happen elsewhere. Europe is already becoming the center for mRNA vaccine research, and other places with less regulation will not sleep on biotech possibilities either. We just got a malaria vaccine that is not perfect, but good enough for Africa and about to be actively deployed in endangered areas, potentially saving hundreds of thousands of lives every year. It took decades and cost hundreds of millions of dollars, but people like Bill Gates fronted most of the bill. There's no reason to think that science couldn't attack aging disease with the same ferocity if someone foots the bill.
29. sigmoid10 ◴[] No.45084621{7}[source]
Thiel put a couple of million in some edgy stuff with little to show for. It is nothing compared to the order of magnitude that Gates invested in malaria.
replies(1): >>45085471 #
30. sdeframond ◴[] No.45084921{5}[source]
Pharmaceutics are so valuable because they can be sold.

A healthy lifestyle must be earned. It is a constant struggle against the fastfood industry.

Soon you'll see Coca-cola or Nestlé [0] selling both very unhealthy quasi-addictive food and drinks to kids and magic pills that cure obesity. Sounds scalable enough ?

[0] https://www.nestle.com/brands/healthcare-nutrition/medical-n...

replies(1): >>45087797 #
31. JumpinJack_Cash ◴[] No.45085258[source]
> Sleeping well, eating well and exercising does work. Science about this is well-established. So why arent we?

Because although longevity is a nice recurrent idea for everyone in theory, when the rubber meets the road people routinely want to optimize time spent in living in pleasure.

The pleasurable stuff is almost all about "YOLO!" in every domain. A candle that shines twice as bright ends up consuming itself twice as fast and all that

32. notahacker ◴[] No.45085471{8}[source]
Well yeah, that's my point. He's the exact opposite of the scenario you suggest, someone who's so committed to promoting the idea of life extension he'll chuck a couple of million at woo merchants in the space purely for signalling purposes, someone who go on podcasts talking about the compatibility of "ending death" with Christianity and has a personal life extension regime, but when it comes down to actually putting significant capital down towards near term life extension, he doesn't see the opportunity. It's not because he doesn't want to look edgy, it's because he doesn't believe what he's being pitched is going to deliver on useful timelines.
33. ACCount37 ◴[] No.45087797{6}[source]
Miss me with that "must be earned" bullshit.

If you think that being healthy should be a reward for a lifestyle of virtue, that's your problem, not mine. I'd rather have an actual solution than a blanket "those people don't struggle hard enough", pointed at the majority of US population that's overweight.

replies(1): >>45090025 #
34. sdeframond ◴[] No.45090025{7}[source]
Yes that's correct, we can't just expect people to lead that struggle alone.

How about some regulation in the F&B industry? Reducing screen time at school? Those can be done now and don't really cost much.

And then make our cities pedestrian and bicycle friendly. More difficult but definitely a win.

Or would you rather pour billions hoping for a magic pill that solves it all? This is not realistic.