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280 points dargscisyhp | 24 comments | | HN request time: 0.001s | source | bottom
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padjo ◴[] No.44765718[source]
It’s pretty clear that the only numbers this administration are interested in are ones that support the narrative that the great leader is infallible.
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exe34 ◴[] No.44765768[source]
They just fired the commissioner of Labour Statistics. The great thing about autocrats is that they neuter their own country pretty quickly. When you make it risky for people to give you bad news, you end up with missiles that don't work and capital ships that sink.
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1. roenxi ◴[] No.44765836[source]
The US BLS does seem to have a bit of a history [0] with their job reporting though. The process they've been using appears biased to over report initially and then get revised down over time. I'm sure there are a lot of political considerations, but from a raw statistical perspective there is a pretty easy path to getting better results. They could eliminate the optimistic bias and aim for accuracy.

If it were me I'd be sacking people until they started getting a mean adjustment somewhere around 0. I doubt that is what Trump is doing, but the managers left themselves vulnerable to technical criticism.

[0] https://mishtalk.com/economics/in-honor-of-labor-day-lets-re...

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2. delusional ◴[] No.44766006[source]
> If it were me I'd be sacking people

Why sack them? It's not like they refused to mean adjust or failed to do so. The numbers came out, and before anybody has even had a chance to question them. Before any coherent criticism as had time to root, the person responsible is fired.

Firing people is not how you get more accurate numbers. It's how you get yes-men.

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3. hcknwscommenter ◴[] No.44766042[source]
The source you cite is written by a man with literally zero training in economics or econometrics. He lost his job in 911 and started a blog in the GFC that gained an audience (https://mishtalk.com/economics/uk-high-school-student-asks-m...). Good for him. You assert with absolutely no basis in fact or any supporting citation that "there is a pretty easy path to getting better results." The BLS is run by the world's experts in how to measure what they are measuring. The private payroll company ADP reports their own numbers and has never demonstrated better accuracy despite the huge profit motive they have there. If it's so easy, then why don't you just write out a detailed explanation of how this supposed bias happens and how to fix it. You can't because it's not true that there is this sort of bias or that there is an easy fix (revisions are sometimes up and sometimes down, early data is not as reliable as later data). The BLS is constantly at work developing and testing new ways of doing their job better faster and cheaper. It's a difficult job done by thoughtful people. Bloomberg had a very contentious interview today with Peter Navarro and basically called him and Trump a liar over this made up allegation of political bias and/or incompetence at the BLS ("we just don't have evidence to support those instances here at Bloomberg"). This was the biggest miss in 50 years, yes. However, that's ignoring the fact that the economy is very much larger now and looking at the miss in terms of absolute job numbers revised is dumb, and the tariff uncertainty/TACO trade/Fed bullying/debt ceiling/and big beautiful bill drama is making this a particularly difficult time for this type of forecast.
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4. blackbear_ ◴[] No.44766083[source]
The "history" you cite only goes back three years. Meanwhile, the BLS publishes the monthly corrections since 1979, and the average correction since 2003 is +9k between first and third estimates [1].

Moreover, do note that all published numbers come with standard errors [2] and 90% confidence intervals, which did include the corrections of -133k and -120k that were made for May and June. The current interval for July is -63k to +209k [3]. Anybody who understood high school stats knows the meaning and implications of this.

[1] https://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cesnaicsrev.htm#Summary

[2] https://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cesvarae.htm

[3] https://www.bls.gov/ces/

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5. roenxi ◴[] No.44766148[source]
> It's not like they refused to mean adjust or failed to do so.

It is like they failed to do so - there is a timeseries of consistently negative adjustments. The BLS revising numbers down isn't an unexpected event, that is pretty standard for their jobs reports.

It is better to resolve things with a conversation rather than formal action. But if a conversation doesn't get immediate results it is fastest just to move people on at that level of seniority. The competition is fierce and it is more about finding the right person for the job than trying to micromanage performance.

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6. roenxi ◴[] No.44766185[source]
McEntarfer [0] had only been commissioner for around 18 months. The performance of the BLS in 1979 probably isn't reflective of her skills and talents.

And I'm not going to bother digging through the manuals to figure out how the BLS is calculating their standard errors, but there is a pretty decent chance they've been calculated assuming that the error mean is 0 when in fact it appears to be biased.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erika_McEntarfer

replies(1): >>44769017 #
7. roenxi ◴[] No.44766203[source]
> The BLS is run by the world's experts in how to measure what they are measuring.

And the commissioner was just sacked and the reason given was because she was incompetent. Goes to show the risks of being in a high performing environment and not having a trivially demonstrable track record of high performance. If a dude with no particular track record can clearly articulate why the numbers are biased then your employment might fall into question.

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8. kergonath ◴[] No.44766216[source]
> Firing people is not how you get more accurate numbers. It's how you get yes-men.

When reality and truth do not matter, why would they want accurate numbers? They do not need the country to flourish, they just need their personal wealth to grow and the rest of the population to remain compliant. From that point of view, shooting the messenger before the message gets out of control makes perfect sense. It is working well enough for many autocratic regimes around the world.

9. disgruntledphd2 ◴[] No.44766275{3}[source]
Generally, firing statisticians because you don't like their numbers doesn't improve the accuracy of their estimates, but apparently people need to keep learning this lesson.
replies(1): >>44766302 #
10. roenxi ◴[] No.44766302{4}[source]
As far as I'm aware no statisticians have been fired and no suggestion has been made that they should be. McEntarfer is pretty high up in the food chain; she's there to be accountable for performance, not to crunch numbers.
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11. shakna ◴[] No.44766383[source]
> If it were me I'd be sacking people until they started getting a mean adjustment somewhere around 0. I doubt that is what Trump is doing, but the managers left themselves vulnerable to technical criticism.

When the jobs market is currently being impacted by a leader throwing around unprecedented tariffs, and upending decades of economic practice by throwing away national deals that he himself negotiated, you are not going to be able to accurately predict things - because they are unprecedented.

12. ◴[] No.44766412{5}[source]
13. Terr_ ◴[] No.44766447{5}[source]
> As far as I'm aware no statisticians have been fired

And nobody at CBS has been arrested, but that doesn't mean corruption isn't happening.

14. tzs ◴[] No.44766453{3}[source]
> And the commissioner was just sacked and the reason given was because she was incompetent

The reason given was she purposefully changed the numbers to make Trump look bad. There was of course no evidence given for that.

replies(1): >>44766518 #
15. roenxi ◴[] No.44766518{4}[source]
The reason given [0] is that "A lengthy history of inaccuracies and incompetence by Erika McEntarfer, the former Biden-appointed Commissioner of the Bureau of Labor Statistics, has completely eroded public trust in the government agency charged with disseminating key data used by policymakers and businesses to make consequential decisions. Under McEntarfer, the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) consistently published overly optimistic jobs numbers — only for those numbers to be quietly revised later."

Which is certainly a political reason and easy to disagree with. But it is reasonable and factually defensible. Her Bureau has been publishing optimistic estimates.

[0] https://www.whitehouse.gov/articles/2025/08/bls-has-lengthy-...

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16. tzs ◴[] No.44767061{5}[source]
No, that's the rationalizations some white house staffer wrote. The reasons Trump gave on Truth Social was that she purposefully changed the numbers to harm Trump.
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17. roenxi ◴[] No.44767109{6}[source]
Then the staffer has made a pretty good argument and has managed to justify firing her. Stroke of luck for Trump that he made a reasonable and easily defended decision by total accident.
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18. disgruntledphd2 ◴[] No.44767538{5}[source]
Ok fair enough, but this is very very very like the Greek incident.

More generally, this is incredibly dumb in many, many ways. Like, the BLS can't control survey response rates, and the fact that Covid has broken the seasonal models for basically every long-run time series is also outside their control.

One could argue that they should be using IRS tax data to figure this out, but that would be a massive change.

And finally, if the numbers looked good, there would have been no firing (regardless of the errors). It's gonna be an interesting Monday on Wall St.

19. hcknwscommenter ◴[] No.44767626{5}[source]
The reason you state is just not factually true. It is false. A lie. Go watch that bloomberg interview from yesterday where the reporters tell Navarro to his face that they have seen "no evidence" of any of that.
20. hcknwscommenter ◴[] No.44767642{3}[source]
What clear articulation are you even talking about? Oh that's right. There is none. It's just a bunch of BS and hand waving, but that's apparently good enough for you.
21. exe34 ◴[] No.44769017{3}[source]
> but there is a pretty decent chance they've been calculated assuming that the error mean is 0 when in fact it appears to be biased.

Could you explain a bit how you arrive at this conclusion?

replies(1): >>44773297 #
22. exe34 ◴[] No.44769034{7}[source]
Isn't it amazing, how Trump's staff manage to say words that make it sound like he was right all along! Even though those words rarely have any basis in facts.
23. exe34 ◴[] No.44769051{3}[source]
> there is a timeseries of consistently negative adjustments

That's an important point actually - so the hypothetical future correction (based on past corrections) to the "bad" figures would make Trump look even worse, right?

24. roenxi ◴[] No.44773297{4}[source]
I can't really call it a conclusion, I just don't know if the residuals are assumed to have a mean of 0 in their model or having a mean of 0 is simply standard practice. Alternatively if you mean the appearance of bias, you can plot the cumulative sum of the revisions (first chart in the mishtalk.com link) vs. a cumulative sum of a normal variable with the same standard deviation. A clear trend emerges because the mean adjustment isn't 0.

In fairness though, Trump's decision is clearly political, these sort of technical factors aren't important enough to rate an official press release and there isn't a cut and dried case that there is anything wrong with the BLS's methods looking in from the sidelines. But for the last few years they have been too optimistic with their estimates and that does strengthen Trump's case.