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280 points dargscisyhp | 52 comments | | HN request time: 0.76s | source | bottom
1. padjo ◴[] No.44765718[source]
It’s pretty clear that the only numbers this administration are interested in are ones that support the narrative that the great leader is infallible.
replies(2): >>44765768 #>>44765910 #
2. exe34 ◴[] No.44765768[source]
They just fired the commissioner of Labour Statistics. The great thing about autocrats is that they neuter their own country pretty quickly. When you make it risky for people to give you bad news, you end up with missiles that don't work and capital ships that sink.
replies(4): >>44765787 #>>44765836 #>>44766036 #>>44775268 #
3. padjo ◴[] No.44765787[source]
Yep. It’s odd to see classic third world dictator antics in the most powerful country in the world, but not at all unexpected given who’s running it.
replies(2): >>44766003 #>>44766030 #
4. roenxi ◴[] No.44765836[source]
The US BLS does seem to have a bit of a history [0] with their job reporting though. The process they've been using appears biased to over report initially and then get revised down over time. I'm sure there are a lot of political considerations, but from a raw statistical perspective there is a pretty easy path to getting better results. They could eliminate the optimistic bias and aim for accuracy.

If it were me I'd be sacking people until they started getting a mean adjustment somewhere around 0. I doubt that is what Trump is doing, but the managers left themselves vulnerable to technical criticism.

[0] https://mishtalk.com/economics/in-honor-of-labor-day-lets-re...

replies(4): >>44766006 #>>44766042 #>>44766083 #>>44766383 #
5. mavhc ◴[] No.44765910[source]
Facts have a well known liberal bias, the only way the right wing gets enough votes is to have more people who don't do facts. Promoting science would just reduce the number of votes they get.

Same with global warming, it causes migration, loads of immigrants is great for the right wing, scares people into voting for them, they have no incentive to fix the problem that's causing them to get more votes.

6. noir_lord ◴[] No.44766003{3}[source]
> the most powerful country in the world.

For now, I live in the former most powerful country in the world prior to the rise of the US.

replies(1): >>44766061 #
7. delusional ◴[] No.44766006{3}[source]
> If it were me I'd be sacking people

Why sack them? It's not like they refused to mean adjust or failed to do so. The numbers came out, and before anybody has even had a chance to question them. Before any coherent criticism as had time to root, the person responsible is fired.

Firing people is not how you get more accurate numbers. It's how you get yes-men.

replies(2): >>44766148 #>>44766216 #
8. diggan ◴[] No.44766030{3}[source]
> but not at all unexpected given who’s running it

To be fair, this has felt like the natural consequence of the "maximize capitalism without regarding the downsides" maxim the US seems to have been operated under for a long time. Corporations have been (indirectly) running the country for some decades at this point, it's just way more obvious and in the face now when a "businessman" sits as president.

replies(3): >>44766090 #>>44766124 #>>44766439 #
9. eterm ◴[] No.44766036[source]
That may be a comforting thought, but the reality is that it takes decades for these things to have an effect, and there's no guarantee that transitioning to a low trust and high corruption society will result in the removal of the autocrat.

See North Korea or Russia. People have been claiming they're on the verge of collapse for decades but the reality is that they just keep going.

replies(5): >>44766397 #>>44766487 #>>44767778 #>>44768855 #>>44768970 #
10. hcknwscommenter ◴[] No.44766042{3}[source]
The source you cite is written by a man with literally zero training in economics or econometrics. He lost his job in 911 and started a blog in the GFC that gained an audience (https://mishtalk.com/economics/uk-high-school-student-asks-m...). Good for him. You assert with absolutely no basis in fact or any supporting citation that "there is a pretty easy path to getting better results." The BLS is run by the world's experts in how to measure what they are measuring. The private payroll company ADP reports their own numbers and has never demonstrated better accuracy despite the huge profit motive they have there. If it's so easy, then why don't you just write out a detailed explanation of how this supposed bias happens and how to fix it. You can't because it's not true that there is this sort of bias or that there is an easy fix (revisions are sometimes up and sometimes down, early data is not as reliable as later data). The BLS is constantly at work developing and testing new ways of doing their job better faster and cheaper. It's a difficult job done by thoughtful people. Bloomberg had a very contentious interview today with Peter Navarro and basically called him and Trump a liar over this made up allegation of political bias and/or incompetence at the BLS ("we just don't have evidence to support those instances here at Bloomberg"). This was the biggest miss in 50 years, yes. However, that's ignoring the fact that the economy is very much larger now and looking at the miss in terms of absolute job numbers revised is dumb, and the tariff uncertainty/TACO trade/Fed bullying/debt ceiling/and big beautiful bill drama is making this a particularly difficult time for this type of forecast.
replies(1): >>44766203 #
11. kangalioo ◴[] No.44766061{4}[source]
Which is, the UK? China?
replies(1): >>44766253 #
12. blackbear_ ◴[] No.44766083{3}[source]
The "history" you cite only goes back three years. Meanwhile, the BLS publishes the monthly corrections since 1979, and the average correction since 2003 is +9k between first and third estimates [1].

Moreover, do note that all published numbers come with standard errors [2] and 90% confidence intervals, which did include the corrections of -133k and -120k that were made for May and June. The current interval for July is -63k to +209k [3]. Anybody who understood high school stats knows the meaning and implications of this.

[1] https://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cesnaicsrev.htm#Summary

[2] https://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/cesvarae.htm

[3] https://www.bls.gov/ces/

replies(1): >>44766185 #
13. defrost ◴[] No.44766090{4}[source]
Maximize crony capitalism and oligarchy, perhaps.

The US drifted far from any form of pure open market laissez-faire capitalism or balanced regulated capitalism some time past.

replies(2): >>44766163 #>>44766418 #
14. linguae ◴[] No.44766124{4}[source]
I agree. For decades our political and cultural leadership took actions that benefitted themselves and other beneficiaries (e.g., property owners in coastal metro areas, tech and finance workers, etc.), but life has gotten harder for the poor and the middle class. The hollowing out of middle America and the dramatic rise in costs of the three H’s (health care, higher education, and housing) has been painful for many Americans.

I thought things would look up after the 2012 election, when people were looking for meaningful change. Unfortunately a charismatic demagogue entered the scene and has taken power. Since then, we’ve been on the worst possible timeline, and I don’t see an easy way out of this mess. It’s going to take a lot of work for Americans to trust each other again and for the rest of the world to trust us.

replies(1): >>44766274 #
15. roenxi ◴[] No.44766148{4}[source]
> It's not like they refused to mean adjust or failed to do so.

It is like they failed to do so - there is a timeseries of consistently negative adjustments. The BLS revising numbers down isn't an unexpected event, that is pretty standard for their jobs reports.

It is better to resolve things with a conversation rather than formal action. But if a conversation doesn't get immediate results it is fastest just to move people on at that level of seniority. The competition is fierce and it is more about finding the right person for the job than trying to micromanage performance.

replies(2): >>44766275 #>>44769051 #
16. andrepd ◴[] No.44766163{5}[source]
Yes, your "pure" capitalism tends to do that.

Kinda similar to the people who say of the SU "but it was not true communism".

replies(1): >>44766200 #
17. roenxi ◴[] No.44766185{4}[source]
McEntarfer [0] had only been commissioner for around 18 months. The performance of the BLS in 1979 probably isn't reflective of her skills and talents.

And I'm not going to bother digging through the manuals to figure out how the BLS is calculating their standard errors, but there is a pretty decent chance they've been calculated assuming that the error mean is 0 when in fact it appears to be biased.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erika_McEntarfer

replies(1): >>44769017 #
18. defrost ◴[] No.44766200{6}[source]
The people that founded the SU openly declared that it wasn't communism, just a managed phase on the way to actual communism (that never happened).

Either way, we're talking here about small in groups treating a larger out group as sheep to be manipulated and harvested.

replies(1): >>44795662 #
19. roenxi ◴[] No.44766203{4}[source]
> The BLS is run by the world's experts in how to measure what they are measuring.

And the commissioner was just sacked and the reason given was because she was incompetent. Goes to show the risks of being in a high performing environment and not having a trivially demonstrable track record of high performance. If a dude with no particular track record can clearly articulate why the numbers are biased then your employment might fall into question.

replies(2): >>44766453 #>>44767642 #
20. kergonath ◴[] No.44766216{4}[source]
> Firing people is not how you get more accurate numbers. It's how you get yes-men.

When reality and truth do not matter, why would they want accurate numbers? They do not need the country to flourish, they just need their personal wealth to grow and the rest of the population to remain compliant. From that point of view, shooting the messenger before the message gets out of control makes perfect sense. It is working well enough for many autocratic regimes around the world.

21. tialaramex ◴[] No.44766253{5}[source]
The UK. It had this huge navy, which amusingly is where its central bank comes from. An English Parliament wanted to buy the greatest navy the world had ever seen but that's very expensive, so their cunning scheme was, license some business people to run an exclusive Bank of England, secured by the word of the British government, the income from this funds a navy and the successors of that navy were still dominant into the 20th century.

The fact that the Bank of England was historically a private business is awkward when it comes to explaining to some modern country why it's not OK that their central bank is giving the leader's nephew $100M in unsecured loans, and this sort of discomfort is part of why it was bought by the British government and gradually ceased operating as a private bank in my lifetime. When I was younger I knew people whose mortgage was issued by the country's central bank. Not like celebrities or politicians or anything, just bureaucrats who got a good deal, sort of "mates rates" but for a house loan.

22. disgruntledphd2 ◴[] No.44766275{5}[source]
Generally, firing statisticians because you don't like their numbers doesn't improve the accuracy of their estimates, but apparently people need to keep learning this lesson.
replies(1): >>44766302 #
23. roenxi ◴[] No.44766302{6}[source]
As far as I'm aware no statisticians have been fired and no suggestion has been made that they should be. McEntarfer is pretty high up in the food chain; she's there to be accountable for performance, not to crunch numbers.
replies(3): >>44766412 #>>44766447 #>>44767538 #
24. shakna ◴[] No.44766383{3}[source]
> If it were me I'd be sacking people until they started getting a mean adjustment somewhere around 0. I doubt that is what Trump is doing, but the managers left themselves vulnerable to technical criticism.

When the jobs market is currently being impacted by a leader throwing around unprecedented tariffs, and upending decades of economic practice by throwing away national deals that he himself negotiated, you are not going to be able to accurately predict things - because they are unprecedented.

25. rvba ◴[] No.44766397{3}[source]
It does not take decades to ruin something. In the example here: scientists can go somewhere else and never come back. Even if the next administration vhanges course you will never know if there wont be constant flip-flopping. That's bad for business, science and life. People want predictability.
26. ◴[] No.44766412{7}[source]
27. kristopolous ◴[] No.44766418{5}[source]
"open market laissez-faire capitalism" was the explicit policy goal for maybe 50 years.

The idea that if it was only somehow more pure in some ideological virtue, then it would have worked, you'll need really hard historical material empirical evidence to defend such a claim

Not that it wasn't white and pure enough but that if it was the shade whiter you advocate for, it would have somehow been a complete 180°, like some magical threshold

28. agentcoops ◴[] No.44766439{4}[source]
While I would agree with you generally, in this case we’re talking about decisions that are precisely not desired by either business or investors. Which is to say, I think the American people and institutions are in a much worse place than at the whims of business alone: caught between an evangelical cultural coup and unrestrained capitalism. It’s actually surprising to me that the evangelicals appear to be dominating the concerns of business and investment — I don’t have a great explanation of why it has turned out like this. It leads to such a manifestly contradictory situation in which the government is betting the future on US AI global dominance and yet gutting the institutions that would enable it.
replies(2): >>44769013 #>>44775297 #
29. Terr_ ◴[] No.44766447{7}[source]
> As far as I'm aware no statisticians have been fired

And nobody at CBS has been arrested, but that doesn't mean corruption isn't happening.

30. tzs ◴[] No.44766453{5}[source]
> And the commissioner was just sacked and the reason given was because she was incompetent

The reason given was she purposefully changed the numbers to make Trump look bad. There was of course no evidence given for that.

replies(1): >>44766518 #
31. kzrdude ◴[] No.44766487{3}[source]
There's already been a decade of trumpism (Trump in the republican party, and in american politics). In that time, people (politicians) who are not interested in trumpism have by and large adapted (pretend that they do) or left. This partly explains why this presidency is different from his last one.
32. roenxi ◴[] No.44766518{6}[source]
The reason given [0] is that "A lengthy history of inaccuracies and incompetence by Erika McEntarfer, the former Biden-appointed Commissioner of the Bureau of Labor Statistics, has completely eroded public trust in the government agency charged with disseminating key data used by policymakers and businesses to make consequential decisions. Under McEntarfer, the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) consistently published overly optimistic jobs numbers — only for those numbers to be quietly revised later."

Which is certainly a political reason and easy to disagree with. But it is reasonable and factually defensible. Her Bureau has been publishing optimistic estimates.

[0] https://www.whitehouse.gov/articles/2025/08/bls-has-lengthy-...

replies(2): >>44767061 #>>44767626 #
33. linguae ◴[] No.44766815{6}[source]
I partly agree that white supremacy, particularly in the form of xenophobia, played a major role in Trump’s catapult to popularity (“Mexico’s not sending their best!” in 2015) and his enduring popularity (“they’re eating the cats!” in 2024). Let’s not also forget the Religious Right, which made a bargain to elect a protégé of Hugh Hefner in exchange for Supreme Court justices who would vote the Religious Right’s way on abortion and LGBT+ issues. When it comes to social issues, Trump has largely fulfilled his promises, and he continues to “stick it” to his “enemies” whenever and however he can.

However, Trump, at least in 2016, also attracted the votes of people who were fed up with the hollowing out of middle America and who resonated with his protectionist economic policies, and he also attracted people who were swayed by his “drain the swamp” rhetoric, which resonated with people who did not want an election featuring Clinton II (Hillary Clinton) vs Bush III (Jeb Bush). It is these people who have been fooled, who have not gotten politics purged of corruption. Much of the old GOP has completely capitulated to Trump, with the rest largely driven out of politics. The “swamp” never got drained; it’s now Chernobyl levels of toxic.

In addition, the two party system has made Republicans voters too loyal to their party. They’re so afraid of the Democratic Party, that their leaders will take away people’s guns, money, and free speech, that they don’t dismiss the warnings of authoritarianism as just plain fearmongering and “Trump derangement syndrome.” Well, the authoritarianism is here today. Right now it’s being directed at “enemies” like immigrants, anti-Trump politicians, scientists, and educators, but eventually the authoritarianism will affect Trump’s base. Unfortunately a lot of innocent people are suffering, and the nearest election is the 2026 midterms, which highlights a major weakness in the American government; we have no recall mechanism, nor do we have mechanisms like parliamentary systems where snap elections can be called.

34. tzs ◴[] No.44767061{7}[source]
No, that's the rationalizations some white house staffer wrote. The reasons Trump gave on Truth Social was that she purposefully changed the numbers to harm Trump.
replies(1): >>44767109 #
35. roenxi ◴[] No.44767109{8}[source]
Then the staffer has made a pretty good argument and has managed to justify firing her. Stroke of luck for Trump that he made a reasonable and easily defended decision by total accident.
replies(1): >>44769034 #
36. ◴[] No.44767321{6}[source]
37. disgruntledphd2 ◴[] No.44767538{7}[source]
Ok fair enough, but this is very very very like the Greek incident.

More generally, this is incredibly dumb in many, many ways. Like, the BLS can't control survey response rates, and the fact that Covid has broken the seasonal models for basically every long-run time series is also outside their control.

One could argue that they should be using IRS tax data to figure this out, but that would be a massive change.

And finally, if the numbers looked good, there would have been no firing (regardless of the errors). It's gonna be an interesting Monday on Wall St.

38. hcknwscommenter ◴[] No.44767626{7}[source]
The reason you state is just not factually true. It is false. A lie. Go watch that bloomberg interview from yesterday where the reporters tell Navarro to his face that they have seen "no evidence" of any of that.
39. hcknwscommenter ◴[] No.44767642{5}[source]
What clear articulation are you even talking about? Oh that's right. There is none. It's just a bunch of BS and hand waving, but that's apparently good enough for you.
40. soraminazuki ◴[] No.44767778{3}[source]
Isn't that a bit too optimistic? Even before Trump, neoliberalism has wrecked the lives of the majority of Americans for decades at this point. See healthcare, housing, food safety, water supply, electrical grid, public transportation, broadband access, worker protection, wealth gap, and I'm sure I'm missing a lot more.

Is the reason we're in this situation.

replies(1): >>44776345 #
41. LexiMax ◴[] No.44768855{3}[source]
You don't need to wait for a hypothetical collapse of the autocrat for it to inform your personal decision-making and long-term planning.
42. exe34 ◴[] No.44768970{3}[source]
Oh no, I don't expect Trump to leave the White House unless it's in a box. He' s about to splurge $100M of his own money on a ballroom, so clearly he's planning on being king for a while. No, the comfort is that the US won't be bossing the world around for very long. Russia says a lot of things, but the only people they can bully at this point is their next door neighbours. The US can currently glass pretty much anybody anywhere within 2 hours. Trump is just making sure their influence on the rest of the world becomes minimal within a decade or two.
43. LexiMax ◴[] No.44769013{5}[source]
Business leaders might have had a distaste for the evangelical wing of the GOP, but they have been, are, and always will be terrified of populist left-wing movements. There was a fair amount of that kind of sentiment floating around in the Obama years with movements like Occupy Wall Street and the popularity of Bernie Sanders, so they decided to hitch their fortunes to the GOP.

And it's easy to understand why they made that choice. I don't think they are dim-witted, ignorant of history, or unaware of how this gamble could turn out badly for them. Instead, it's because for all of the problems that they are having with the current administration, they still have their wealth, they still have some of their influence, and they also have the option to jump ship for greener pastures if worst came to worst.

You'll notice that nowhere in that equation is concern for the average working-class American.

44. exe34 ◴[] No.44769017{5}[source]
> but there is a pretty decent chance they've been calculated assuming that the error mean is 0 when in fact it appears to be biased.

Could you explain a bit how you arrive at this conclusion?

replies(1): >>44773297 #
45. exe34 ◴[] No.44769034{9}[source]
Isn't it amazing, how Trump's staff manage to say words that make it sound like he was right all along! Even though those words rarely have any basis in facts.
46. exe34 ◴[] No.44769051{5}[source]
> there is a timeseries of consistently negative adjustments

That's an important point actually - so the hypothetical future correction (based on past corrections) to the "bad" figures would make Trump look even worse, right?

47. roenxi ◴[] No.44773297{6}[source]
I can't really call it a conclusion, I just don't know if the residuals are assumed to have a mean of 0 in their model or having a mean of 0 is simply standard practice. Alternatively if you mean the appearance of bias, you can plot the cumulative sum of the revisions (first chart in the mishtalk.com link) vs. a cumulative sum of a normal variable with the same standard deviation. A clear trend emerges because the mean adjustment isn't 0.

In fairness though, Trump's decision is clearly political, these sort of technical factors aren't important enough to rate an official press release and there isn't a cut and dried case that there is anything wrong with the BLS's methods looking in from the sidelines. But for the last few years they have been too optimistic with their estimates and that does strengthen Trump's case.

48. ◴[] No.44775268[source]
49. NalNezumi ◴[] No.44775297{5}[source]
If you learn that many business influencer are actually deeply Christian (many famous business, self help books is just sugarcoated Christian principles books[1]) you'll understand that those two are highly overlapping, and not separate political entities

[1] https://youtu.be/A_hH-JkXD_c?feature=shared

50. exe34 ◴[] No.44776345{4}[source]
Trump is the end stage of that transformation. Only now there's no changing course.
51. exe34 ◴[] No.44795662{7}[source]
It's almost like the road didn't go where they said it would.
replies(1): >>44806470 #
52. defrost ◴[] No.44806470{8}[source]
Pretty much, I'm naturally cynical about any waving about of either "Capitalism" or "Communism" as neither has really existed in any pure form and the devil is always in the details.

That, and the propensity of those who seek power to dangle whatever shiny utopia best suits their end of fooling the masses.