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94 points mikece | 44 comments | | HN request time: 0.855s | source | bottom
1. ceejayoz ◴[] No.44397838[source]
So how broad is this?

Can a state now require you to verify your age and identity to read a newspaper they don't like?

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2. vel0city ◴[] No.44397903[source]
Let me start off saying I'm not a fan of this law. I don't think these requirements are workable with current technology, and I don't necessarily agree with the goals or that the goals are worth the side effects of the regulations.

> Can a state now require you to verify your age and identity to read a newspaper they don't like?

Most states have laws in place that regulate the sale and distribution of pornography and other "obscene" materials. This has been true for a long, long time. So yes, states have had the ability to require you to show ID to get a "newspaper" they don't like, assuming that newspaper is actually just pornography/obscenity. I don't think most people would argue Pornhub are news sites though.

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3. ◴[] No.44397913[source]
4. giarc ◴[] No.44397939[source]
Not unless that newspaper is "more than one-third sexual material".
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5. lupusreal ◴[] No.44397951[source]
Huh, I think old playboy magazines might actually be under that one third.
6. AshamedCaptain ◴[] No.44397995[source]
Wanna bet what the ratio is for e.g. Reddit?
replies(2): >>44398054 #>>44400196 #
7. brianbest101 ◴[] No.44398006[source]
What counts as sexual material?
replies(1): >>44398107 #
8. twobitshifter ◴[] No.44398008[source]
This seems pretty easy to get around through either lorem ipsum or inflated pizza related dialogue.
9. hedora ◴[] No.44398035[source]
The archive link shared by heythere22 (which seems to be a different story) discusses this.

The published plan from the heritage foundation includes a few more steps: (1) redefine obscenity to include pornography, effectively banning it via interstate commerce laws (2) extend this to anything that could “be harmful to minors”, which will certainly include information about groups they don’t like, starting with LGBTQ+.

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10. brianbest101 ◴[] No.44398050[source]
But what counts as obscene is not well defined. Forget newspapers you could have to age gate Wikipedia
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11. dilippkumar ◴[] No.44398053[source]
So pornhub needs to see how many terabytes of content they host and use AI to generate 2x more terabytes of cat pictures and add them to a compliance tab on their home page now?

Seems annoying but not impossible to do.

Edit: I am happy to build a cat pic to porn ratio audit company if anyone is interested. I want to participate in the funniest regulatory process this will create

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12. ezekg ◴[] No.44398054{3}[source]
NSFW is hidden by default iirc, so something like this would only apply to enabling NSFW content.
13. khy ◴[] No.44398103[source]
So a site just needs to generate enough content until its under that threshold?
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14. vel0city ◴[] No.44398107{3}[source]
Pretty much all courts in the US would use the Miller test to determine if material is obscene or not.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_test

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15. vel0city ◴[] No.44398129{3}[source]
What counts as obscene has been defined for a while. And I don't think Wikipedia would count as obscene by the Miller test.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_test

. Whether "the average person, applying contemporary community standards", would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest,

. Whether the work depicts or describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct or excretory functions specifically defined by applicable state law,

. Whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value.

Clearly the whole of Wikipedia is not trying to appeal to purient interests of the average person. I don't think much of the content of Wikipedia is describing sexual content in a patently offensive way, and I'd argue it has serious political and scientific value.

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16. spondylosaurus ◴[] No.44398131{3}[source]
Considering another of today's rulings came down in favor of religious opt-outs for kids in public schools, and that that case came out specifically because parents didn't want their kids exposed to books with LGBTQ characters in them, then yeah—I'd say we're scarily close to redefining an entire class of people's existence as obscene.

(Never mind the fact that other recent anti-LGBTQ rulings and policies have heavily implied as much, but I don't think they've been quite so explicit. Yet.)

https://www.npr.org/2025/06/27/nx-s1-5430355/scotus-opt-out-...

17. bilbo0s ◴[] No.44398141{3}[source]
I understand the point you're trying to make. However, I wanted to point out that Wikipedia being one-third porn/obscene content is unlikely in the extreme.
replies(2): >>44398654 #>>44398943 #
18. joe_guy ◴[] No.44398150{4}[source]
I am not a lawyer and am not behind a PC atm, but didn't Rowan v. USPS determine that the receiver of mail has sole discretion about if the material they received is pornographic or not?

A more limited context of course.

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19. SpicyLemonZest ◴[] No.44398158{3}[source]
I'm just very skeptical of the argument that, when we see a fuzzy line, we have to erase it entirely so that nobody can abuse the fuzziness.
replies(1): >>44402076 #
20. cchance ◴[] No.44398198{4}[source]
Republicans have slowly been moving toward anything LGBTQ being reclassified as "obscene" "pretty much" as defense for what courts consider shifts from day to day, as more right wing get put into positions of powers specifically RELIGIOUS right wing people, the courts have been more than willing to keep redefining what things were previously meant to mean.
21. vel0city ◴[] No.44398216{5}[source]
Not really.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rowan_v._United_States_Post_Of...

> The addressee of postal mail has unreviewable discretion to decide whether to receive further material from a particular sender, and a vendor does not have a constitutional right to send unwanted material to an unreceptive addressee.

It's not necessarily that the receiver has the sole right to determine if the material is pornographic or whatever, its that the receiver of mail has the right to decide to no longer receive material and that the sender doesn't have a right to force its delivery through the mail.

The form to prevent someone from sending you mail you don't want is a PS Form 1500. This form starts off saying:

> If you are receiving unwanted sexually oriented advertisements coming through the mail to your home or business

But, you can still just file it against say a roofer sending you unwanted advertising or whatever. The USPS isn't allowed to challenge your personal determination that you're receiving unwated sexually oriented advertisements. Maybe you personally find roofers sexy and are trying to avoid being around roofers and having their services offered at your home. USPS isn't allowed to judge.

22. heavyset_go ◴[] No.44398246{3}[source]
This is already laid out in Project 2025.

> Transgender people will see their existence denied and their rights stripped away under Project 2025. The authors equate ‘transgender ideology’ to pornography, calling for it to be outlawed. While the far-right policy agenda cannot directly ban transgenderism, it aims to do so indirectly by labeling it as pornography, and then outlawing pornography itself – effectively erasing transgender identity from the U.S.

https://doctorsoftheworld.org/blog/project-2025-lgbtq-rights...

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23. reverendsteveii ◴[] No.44398295{3}[source]
doubly so because you can create the cat pictures and make them technically accessible just by hosting them but you don't have to provide equal means of access between the cat pictures and the "cat" pictures. Users are guided to the content that they're actually there for and anyone who actually wants to see feline photos can navigate to their URLs manually. Every pic uploaded triggers generating another cat pic (or subtly altering one that exists) and now no minors are protected but your operating costs have gone up by a little bit and the government has established that it gets to decide what is appropriate for minors and can use violence to force the entire internet to meet that definition.
24. reverendsteveii ◴[] No.44398320{4}[source]
Even in this description you deferred to your own personal interpretation when you said "I don't think much of the content of Wikipedia is describing sexual content in a patently offensive way". Someone might, or might find it politically expedient to pretend that they do. After all, what's "offensive" is arbitrary.
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25. ceejayoz ◴[] No.44398383[source]
There are quite a few legislators who'd consider an episode of Will and Grace to be entirely "sexual material" because it depicts gay main characters.

Ezekiel 23:20 isn't, though, of course.

26. WarOnPrivacy ◴[] No.44398433{3}[source]
> So a site just needs to generate enough content until its under that threshold?

No. That alone is highly unlikely to prevent performative lawsuits from state attorney generals. Especially (but not limited to) AGs who are intent on satisfying their culture war kink.

27. ceejayoz ◴[] No.44398479{4}[source]
What counts as obscene has notably not been defined.

"Contemporary community standards" and "lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value" are so vague as to be useless. Whose community? Which standards? How many people have to be offended by something? How many people have to find value in it for it to be serious?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obscenity

> In 1957, two associates of acclaimed poet Allen Ginsberg were arrested and jailed for selling his book "Howl and Other Poems" to undercover police officers at a beatnik bookstore in San Francisco. Eventually the California Supreme Court declared the literature to be of "redeeming social value" and therefore not classifiable as "obscene". Because the poem "Howl" contains pornographic slang and overt references to drugs and homosexuality, the poem was (and is) frequently censored and confiscated; however, it remains a landmark case.

The Simpsons was considered concerningly off-color in the 1990s; I remember quite a bit of pearl clutching about it, to the point of them getting into a bit of a feud with George and Barbara Bush. Now it's positive family values TV of "serious artistic value".

Most of what's on Pornhub is considered pornography but not obscenity currently, but that could change on a dime.

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28. fzeroracer ◴[] No.44398654{4}[source]
It's not really that unlikely. In the exact same brief upholding the Texas Porn ID law they're arguing that states have the power to decide what is obscene or not; they're setting up the blocks for saying things like any LGBT content is inherently obscene. This is especially clear in another ruling posted today [1] where the supreme court argues that parents have a right to fully withhold children from any LGBT content they might experience from school.

[1] https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/24pdf/24-297_4f14.pdf

29. reverendsteveii ◴[] No.44398943{4}[source]
Not if I get to pick what's obscene
30. AudiomaticApp ◴[] No.44399288{3}[source]
Contact vx underground, they'd be happy to help
31. jkestner ◴[] No.44399422[source]
To be precise, "more than one-third of which is sexual material harmful to minors." What exactly does that mean? Anything that "promotes" a non-heterosexual, non-binary lifestyle? Anything that discusses safe sex?

Texas certainly could've written the law more narrowly, and chose not to. Small government for me, big brother for thee.

32. vel0city ◴[] No.44399688{5}[source]
You're misunderstanding my description.

You don't just need "someone". You'll find "someone" say anything, including that the Earth is flat, its 40,000 years old, and we're controlled by lizard people. The standard isn't "someone". You'll find someone who claims a table of ICD codes or a stop sign appeals to their prurient interest and is sexual in nature.

You'd need "the average person, applying contemporary community standards" to say that under the Miller test and have the court/a jury to agree. Not just any person applying any standard.

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33. dragonwriter ◴[] No.44399736{6}[source]
> You'd need "the average person, applying contemporary community standards" to say that under the Miller test and have the court/a jury to agree.

No, you just need the court to agree, you don't need to actually get the (non-existent, fictional abstraction) of “the average person” to say anything, you just need a judge to believe that.

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34. reverendsteveii ◴[] No.44399806{6}[source]
You're just kicking the can down the road. "Who decides what's obscene?" "The average person." "Who decides who the average person is?" In your own argument you keep pointing to how arbitrary and abusable this average person standard is as though that makes it somehow a better choice, but at the end of the day the idea of the "average person" is just someone dressing their own personal feelings in a pretty hat. There is no determining who the average person is or what they believe empirically, so the opinion of the person actually making the decision just gets labelled the opinion of the "average person". It does nothing but distance the people making these decisions from responsibility for them because they get to pretend they're just doing what everyone would want. It's 100% arbitrary.
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35. reverendsteveii ◴[] No.44399817{7}[source]
in a nation of 400 million people you only need 5 to agree with you (if it's the right 5) and then the 6 of y'all are "the average person, applying contemporary community standards" and the 399,999,994 of us are out of touch deviants.
36. vel0city ◴[] No.44400091{7}[source]
Would you also argue any standard related to a "reasonable person" to be entirely arbitrary? That's an incredibly similar standard used to determine negligence and similar concepts.
replies(1): >>44400101 #
37. bdangubic ◴[] No.44400101{8}[source]
name one
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38. vel0city ◴[] No.44400192{9}[source]
It's a pretty common standard used in a lot of places.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_person

And other similar "vague" concepts arise elsewhere in the law, like someone "skilled in the art".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person_having_ordinary_skill_i...

39. ndriscoll ◴[] No.44400196{3}[source]
A couple years back (around when they were adding the API restrictions/shutting down third party apps), I found a site dump that looked like it was around 50%.
40. vel0city ◴[] No.44400493{5}[source]
IRT The Simpsons, the Simpsons of 1989 and the Simpsons of today are essentially two radically different shows, they just happen to both be animated and feature four fingered yellow cartoon people. That very early 90s Simpsons show featured far more family violence and other things along that nature than the show today, among a lot of other things that make the show very different.

Even then, it wasn't like the average person was arguing for it to be banned by obscenity rules. The spat between H.W. Bush and the Simpsons was a comment he made, saying "We are going to keep on trying to strengthen the American family, to make American families a lot more like the Waltons and a lot less like the Simpsons." It's not like Bush was actively pushing for The Simpsons to be taken off the air or anything along those lines.

Honestly, I think it makes more sense to have some kind of standard like a reasonable person/common person/contemporary community standard when trying to define something like "obscenity". Not making an argument of what kind of law to pass with that, just stating I don't think having some etched in stone standard would ultimately be good in the end for any kind of law related to such content. Ultimately its the same to me in terms of laws that would otherwise try and regulate certain kinds of commerce or whatever, with extremely rigid definitions that can't keep up with changes to the marketplace. That we might find something like The Simpsons potentially detestable in the 90s but otherwise fine today is an example for such a standard with flexibility, not against it IMO. We wouldn't want the law to be bound to whatever people specifically thought was "obscenity" in 1850 to still hold legal weight today.

41. metalcrow ◴[] No.44400560{3}[source]
Does obscenity not already include pornography? Porn most definitely doesn't pass the Miller test, so the only reason it's not currently illegal is because the federal government doesn't enforce that law.
42. Evil_Saint ◴[] No.44400708{4}[source]
This shit is genuinely terrifying and it seems like no one is doing anything to stop it.
43. Dracophoenix ◴[] No.44402076{4}[source]
Why shouldn't we? A law that isn't well-defined in no law in the proper sense. Ambiguity and overbreath will just be weaponized against people and organizations the government doesn't like just like the Department of Education has done with Title VI in its crusade against a nebulously defined "anti-Semitism".
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44. SpicyLemonZest ◴[] No.44405127{5}[source]
Since you bring up anti-discrimination law, I would point to the concept of “hostile work environment” as a good example. It’s fuzzy and ultimately subjective to draw the line where crude jokes become so offensive and so pervasive that they constitute harassment. But if you refused to draw any line, you’d end up with a lot of workplaces where women aren’t in practice welcome.