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170 points flanked-evergl | 44 comments | | HN request time: 0.002s | source | bottom
1. amelius ◴[] No.43619760[source]
I don't understand people who want to defend Apple in this case. UK is a functioning democracy, and why would you want to put a (foreign) company above that? If you want change, you know the route ...
replies(8): >>43619777 #>>43619778 #>>43619785 #>>43619790 #>>43619794 #>>43619795 #>>43619821 #>>43619952 #
2. spacebanana7 ◴[] No.43619777[source]
Even functional democracies make mistakes. Calling them out is part of the correction process.
3. like_any_other ◴[] No.43619778[source]
Secret trials to enact mass surveillance on an unknowing population (the original demand gagged Apple from talking about it) doesn't sound like a "functioning democracy" to me.
replies(1): >>43619811 #
4. wzdd ◴[] No.43619785[source]
I don't understand your comment. Apple seems to be engaging with the order in the appropriate way under a functioning democracy, i.e. by challenging it in the courts.
replies(2): >>43619857 #>>43630147 #
5. rodwyersoftware ◴[] No.43619790[source]
The UK is not a functioning democracy, at all.
replies(2): >>43619799 #>>43620516 #
6. ohgr ◴[] No.43619794[source]
I think you vastly misunderstand or are oversimplifying the problem here. They actually spoke up against a government mandated privacy violation.

What I am worried about really is Google, Meta etc did not speak up against it and likely have had the same requests. So I am worried about some foreign companies complying with my government. And very surprised that one particular foreign company gives more of a shit about me as an end user than my own government.

replies(1): >>43620219 #
7. Retr0id ◴[] No.43619795[source]
"functioning" is a reach.
8. ohgr ◴[] No.43619799[source]
Well it is because the judiciary smacked the secrecy side of it down pretty hard to make sure that it was done in public. That's a pretty strong indicator of a functioning democracy.
replies(4): >>43619836 #>>43619841 #>>43619945 #>>43620563 #
9. londons_explore ◴[] No.43619811[source]
I don't know of any country with fully open governance.

There are always decisions or information which is kept secret/illegal to publish.

replies(3): >>43619835 #>>43619885 #>>43619904 #
10. Leynos ◴[] No.43619821[source]
A functioning justice system is an important part of a functioning democracy.
11. Leynos ◴[] No.43619835{3}[source]
And which parts of that governance can be kept secret should be subject to continuous review. Openness must be carefully guarded.
12. rodwyersoftware ◴[] No.43619836{3}[source]
The UK has not had any real political activity for 100 years. It's all a show.

If the UK represented the British natives then a lot of things would be happening that would get me banned from this website :)

replies(3): >>43619883 #>>43619890 #>>43619906 #
13. ◴[] No.43619857[source]
14. pjc50 ◴[] No.43619883{4}[source]
Sadly, the UK public are pretty authoritarian, especially about things they don't understand like encryption.
15. HPsquared ◴[] No.43619885{3}[source]
Maybe there's a healthy middle ground.
16. mattmanser ◴[] No.43619890{4}[source]
Do you even know when our National Health Service was created? Or our social security net? When laws were repealed that suppressed minorities, when human rights were added to our legislation? National minimum wage? Freedom of information laws?

Hint: All within the last 100 years.

17. dijksterhuis ◴[] No.43619893{4}[source]
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2020/dec/analysis-new-home-office...

> The two-year study by the Home Office makes very clear that there are no grounds for asserting that Muslim or Pakistani-heritage men are disproportionately engaged in such crimes, and, citing our research, it confirmed the unreliability of the Quilliam claim.

white males end up as defendants in CSE cases more often than any other ethnic group

https://www.logicallyfacts.com/en/fact-check/no-pakistani-me...

> while white men make up 83 percent of the population, they accounted for 88 percent of the defendants in child sexual abuse cases.

see page 38 https://www.csacentre.org.uk/app/uploads/2024/02/Trends-in-O...

oh you edited your post to add more anti-muslim rhetoric.

let’s dive into the detail a little

> A pre-sentence report will normally be considered necessary if the offender belongs to one (or more) of the following cohorts:

> at risk of first custodial sentence and/or at risk of a custodial sentence of 2 years or less (after taking into account any reduction for guilty plea)

> a young adult (typically 18-25 years)

> female

> from an ethnic minority, cultural minority, and/or faith minority community

> pregnant or post-natal

> sole or primary carer for dependent relatives

> Or if the court considers that one or more of the following may apply to the offender:

> has disclosed they are transgender

> has or may have any addiction issues

> has or may have a serious chronic medical condition or physical disability, or mental ill health, learning disabilities (including developmental disorders and neurodiverse conditions) or brain injury/damage

> the court considers that the offender is, or there is a risk that they may have been, a victim of:

> domestic abuse, physical or sexual abuse, violent or threatening behaviour, coercive or controlling behaviour, economic, psychological, emotional or any other abuse

> modern slavery or trafficking, or coercion, grooming, intimidation or exploitation.

> This is a non-exhaustive list and a PSR can still be necessary if the individual does not fall into one of these cohorts.

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/overarching-guides/magi...

1) i dont see the word “muslim” mentioned anywhere

2) i see about 10 other societal groups listed that have nothing to do with religion

but sure, let’s keep blaming the muslims for everything, that sounds like a healthy approach to life.

second edit because fuck it.

i grew up in an affluent part of the country, a quiet and mostly white countryside town. went to posh schools. most of my first 20 years i didnt spend much time around people of other ethnicities.

i get it man. i get that you might be afraid of losing your “identity”. or maybe you’re afraid of the big scary bogeymen on the news.

but you don’t have to be afraid. you dont have to be afraid of the bogeymen. the bogeymen are mostly made up stories. you don’t have to be afraid of change. life becomes a hell of a lot more fulfilling without fear.

replies(3): >>43619969 #>>43620003 #>>43620327 #
18. like_any_other ◴[] No.43619904{3}[source]
"Fully open" is a strawman. These are not names of MI5 agents, or a list of active police investigations. This is a massive breach of privacy of every UK citizen, and forced recruitment of every company into a government informant, forcing them to lie to their users that they're being given privacy, whilst informing on them.

It is trying to keep the existence of the Stasi a secret.

replies(1): >>43620095 #
19. ohgr ◴[] No.43619906{4}[source]
As a British native I feel well represented.

It's not perfect of course. We might take a step back occasionally but this usually results in two steps forward. Some press like only to comment on the backward steps though.

20. ohgr ◴[] No.43619920{4}[source]
We just replaced the government responsible for the first issue with a moderately competent one. I expect there to be some progress now. In fact there has been. And it turned out to be mostly bollocks.
21. AndrewDucker ◴[] No.43619945{3}[source]
It's run by a government elected with 34% of the vote. Before that, 43% of the vote. Before that 43%. Before that 37%.

None of that sounds like democracy to me.

replies(2): >>43620081 #>>43620229 #
22. lynx97 ◴[] No.43619952[source]
Surely you are implying that everything in a "functioning democracy" can be solved by voting... I know a ton of pro-EU people that might want to have a talk with you...
replies(1): >>43620514 #
23. ◴[] No.43619969{5}[source]
24. pjc50 ◴[] No.43620003{5}[source]
It's infuriating how often people take "the police have been a disaster at investigating these rape cases" as an excuse for racism rather than trying to fix the police, such as the incidents committed by a serving metropolitan police officer.
replies(1): >>43620211 #
25. Symbiote ◴[] No.43620081{4}[source]
Not all the government is elected.

There are several ministers from the House of Lords, who aren't elected by the people.

I haven't checked for this Parliament, but for the previous one that included people who had LOST their election to be an MP, but got nominated to the Lords anyway.

26. londons_explore ◴[] No.43620095{4}[source]
I'd be willing to bet if the government had to pick between publishing the list of all spies names Vs having backdoor access to all Comms, they'd pick having the backdoor access.
27. drcongo ◴[] No.43620211{6}[source]
It's actually kind of impressive how racists can take literally any issue, in this case a legal battle over encryption, and make it all about their own racism.
28. petepete ◴[] No.43620219[source]
I don't think it's fair to tar Meta with that brush. WhatApp have said repeatedly they'll leave the UK before disabling E2EE.
replies(1): >>43620939 #
29. dijksterhuis ◴[] No.43620229{4}[source]
we have a constituency based first past the post system.

we vote for a local MP to represent our constituency in the house of commons. first one past the threshold wins and represents our area in the house of commons.

each MP gets one vote. one vote in the house of commons for each constituency.

so yes. this is possible. because it’s not about total votes — it’s about representing the individual local areas and the people within those areas.

labour won a landslide of “areas”. that’s how our system works.

just because it doesn’t match what you think democracy should look like doesn’t mean it isn’t democratic. it’s just different.

plenty of criticisms exist about our system (esp house of lords). we even tried to have a referendum on first past the post about two decades ago. i voted for AV. but oh well.

replies(1): >>43620321 #
30. AndrewDucker ◴[] No.43620321{5}[source]
I know how the system works.

I don't consider FPTP to be democratic, because it disenfranches large swathes of the population and means that you can rule the country with a massive majority despite only getting 34% of the vote.

replies(1): >>43620581 #
31. rapsey ◴[] No.43620327{5}[source]
You cited a study that is widely criticized for being poor. Using data selectively and by their own admission data with the potential for being biased and inaccurate.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65174096.amp

https://x.com/t848m0/status/1338930316782788609

32. camjw ◴[] No.43620514[source]
Surely you're not saying that leaving the EU wasn't democratic?
33. camjw ◴[] No.43620516[source]
Come on pal.
34. milesrout ◴[] No.43620563{3}[source]
The judiciary is (thankfully) the most undemocratic institution in Britain. It functions well because it is undemocratic. It has no place being democratic. In no sense does its effectiveness indicate a healthy democracy.
35. milesrout ◴[] No.43620581{6}[source]
FPP does not disfranchise anyone. If you vote for someone that loses their seat or wins in a landslide your vote still counts.
replies(2): >>43620682 #>>43620768 #
36. defrost ◴[] No.43620682{7}[source]
Modern democracies moved on past creaky old FPTP and its strong tendency to produce two party non representive majorities.

  The first-past-the-post election tends to produce a small number of major parties, perhaps just two, a principle known in political science as Duverger's Law. Smaller parties are trampled in first-past-the-post elections.
~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-past-the-post_voting
replies(1): >>43627312 #
37. HPsquared ◴[] No.43620768{7}[source]
One's vote physically being counted is not the same as having any representation in Parliament, let alone government. It's a system of artificial consensus. Managed democracy, in other words. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing, but it's very arbitrary.
replies(1): >>43627256 #
38. ohgr ◴[] No.43620939{3}[source]
I don't believe they've commented on this issue at all and they carry more messages than Apple do in the UK.
replies(1): >>43629803 #
39. milesrout ◴[] No.43627256{8}[source]
An MP represents everyone in his constituency regardless of whether they all voted for him. That is his job. He represents the constituency. It is quite false to say that someone lacks representation in Parliament because his preferred candidate was unsuccessful. Everyone's preferred candidates obviously can't all be successful! That wouldn't be democracy.

>let alone government

The idea that everyone is entitled to have his preferred local candidate become a minister of the Crown is truly absurd.

>artificial consensus ... Managed democracy ... arbitrary

I don't know what this means.

40. milesrout ◴[] No.43627312{8}[source]
Novelty isn't inherently good. The word "modern" is the most overused word in the English language on this forum. Every new Javascript framework is "modern" and by implication good.

There is nothing non-representative about FPP. It has nothing to do with parties. It is a non-party-based system. There is no a priori reason why it is "more democratic" for the proportions of seats in Parliament when split by parti to correspond to the proportions of votes for candidates from those parties. You can declare that you define "democraticness" to be a measure of the extent to which that is true, but there is no logical reason for them to correspond and no good argument that they should.

It is assumed as axiomatically good and you work backwards from there. Party-proportionality is democracy, therefore list-based proportional representation is more democratic. Well only if you redefine "democratic" first to mean "proportional", which isn't what anyone understood it to mean in the past and isn't the way the term is commonly used in any other context.

replies(1): >>43627634 #
41. defrost ◴[] No.43627634{9}[source]
Every voting system has flaws, no voting system is perfect.

FPTP has more flaws than other systems and almost inevitably leads to less representation in democracies by promoting two party blocs that barely differ over successive election iterations. It's a political form of Hotelling's Law coupled with discrete dynamics.

As has happened to the USofA despite a strong opposition to party politics by the founders and crafters of the current system who failed a few centuries back to understand the dynamics of a scheme that didn't scale well.

replies(1): >>43629147 #
42. milesrout ◴[] No.43629147{10}[source]
FPP doesn't cause less representation at the local level, it has more. Party list-based systems have no local representation at all. MMP has it, at least, but has the same kingmaker issue. They assume implicitly that democracy is about competition between unified ideological factions which is not inherent to the concept at all. There is more to life than ideology.

FPP prioritises local representation and majoritarian results: if constituencies are arranged properly, then swings in voter sentiment are amplified. Relatively small changes in voter satisfaction can produce hundred seat majorities at Westminster. That is on purpose. It is part of why governments are accountable.

If you compare it to Germany, where there is enormous dissatisfaction with the government, they held an election, and mostly the same parties will be in government again, because of coalition politics.

The alternative to Germany is the situation here in New Zealand. Culturally still two main parties, but instead of voter sentiment deciding which of them wins, instead it is the choice of a minor kingmaker party that can pick a winner based on who gives it the most concessions. That is arguably better, but still not a good situation compared to a simple majoritarian system. We had one of those. The country was better-run under FPP than under MMP.

Westminster proves quite wrong the common claim that the system encourages two parties, by the way. The main parties have a lesser percentage of votes between them than they have ever had. It is just not true that two parties inevitably dominate.

43. petepete ◴[] No.43629803{4}[source]
Not in the last couple of months but they made a big deal about refusing to comply when it was raised in 2023.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2023/mar/09/whatsapp-...

44. amelius ◴[] No.43630147[source]
Yes, but this is the country that invented the CCTV.