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187 points r721 | 16 comments | | HN request time: 0.001s | source | bottom
1. Workaccount2 ◴[] No.43602117[source]
How do you rectify the simultaneous feelings that arise from knowing that Israel is shooting innocent civilians and knowing that Hamas uses ambulances to carry out missions?

Am I the only one aware of this? Everyone else seems to be blind in one eye...

replies(2): >>43602251 #>>43603798 #
2. wredcoll ◴[] No.43602251[source]
Dunno, which side has more power?
replies(2): >>43602413 #>>43602693 #
3. claytongulick ◴[] No.43602413[source]
I'm confused. Are you making an argument that relative lack of power justifies immoral actions?

I.e. "My family is starving, I have less money than others, so it's ok for me to steal bread" (hat tip to Jean Valjean).

Just curious about your perspective.

replies(2): >>43603148 #>>43604770 #
4. ◴[] No.43602693[source]
5. jpc0 ◴[] No.43603148{3}[source]
Unrelated to the above discussion but, not justfies it, it's still wrong.

But a poor hungry person is a lot more likely to commit a crime of opportunity that feeds them and their family than a well of, well fed person.

Maybe you are actually agreeing with me.

My view, as a neutral observer to the Hamas / IDF debate is they are both wrong and you would ( inclusive you not you specifically ) would probably do the same... Cough Afghanistan etc...

replies(1): >>43603604 #
6. nailer ◴[] No.43603604{4}[source]
Gaza has an incredibly high obesity rate, over 4K calories a day per capita, and it’s Hamas that stockpiles food not Israel.
7. khaledh ◴[] No.43603798[source]
> Hamas uses ambulances to carry out missions

Not trying to defend Hamas, but is there any actual proof of this? Or is it just based on Israel's statements (which has been found to lie repeatedly)?

replies(1): >>43605117 #
8. wredcoll ◴[] No.43604770{3}[source]
I'm actually making the argument that people should be held more accountable for solving problems the more power they have.

It's easy to say "both sides" committed immoral actions, but that doesn't really get us anywhere useful, other than perhaps some moral superiority.

If we want to actually solve problems, i.e. prevent those bad things from happening in the future, the practical suggestion is to start with those people who have the most power to effect change.

replies(1): >>43612026 #
9. Workaccount2 ◴[] No.43605117[source]
Sure, you can reframe it to leave out Israeli news sources.

There is ample footage online of fighting between the two, and Hamas fighters don't wear uniforms. Which fits with Hamas fighting right out of the guerilla warfare playbook.

So it can be reframed as "How do you reconcile Israel killing innocent civilians with the fact the the main way to tell if they are innocent is whether or not they had a gun in their hands when killed?"

replies(1): >>43605905 #
10. khaledh ◴[] No.43605905{3}[source]
> the main way to tell if they are innocent is whether or not they had a gun in their hands when killed?

I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you saying that it's ok for the IDF to kill anyone they see because they cannot assess if they're a threat or not? Was it hard to see that this grandmother¹ with her grandson is not a militant trying to attack the IDF?

¹https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2024/01/25/palestinians-gaz...

replies(1): >>43611560 #
11. Workaccount2 ◴[] No.43611560{4}[source]
My point is very clear: Hamas purposely doesn't issue uniforms (they are extremely wealthy, so it's not like they cannot afford it) in order to muddy the waters between civilian and combatant. Put another way: Hamas's choice camouflage is "Civilian attire".

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I'm not talking about war crimes like you brought up, I'm talking about general combat between the two sides, like you can see in the gazillions of videos posted (both by Israeli sources and Palestinian sources).

replies(2): >>43611695 #>>43628894 #
12. khaledh ◴[] No.43611695{5}[source]
Thanks for explaining. I think the answer to your question lies in the fact that Hamas is not a regular army. They're fighting an army that has the most advanced weapons and tech on the planet, and they can't put a target on their back while moving around. This has been the case throughout history when the indigenous resistance fights a mighty colonial army.

Israel has the intelligence and capability to pin point their targets and deploy high precision targeting, as demonstrated in Lebanon and Iran. After seeing so many war crimes committed by the IDF, I'm convinced that while they can assess and eliminate targets in a precise fashion, thus minimizing civilan casualties, they deliberately _choose_ not to do so.

replies(1): >>43613175 #
13. claytongulick ◴[] No.43612026{4}[source]
So, "with great power comes great responsibility".

That's a concept I've believed in since Stan Lee illustrated it so beautifully to me as a child.

I'm not qualified to engage in serious ethics debates, and I'm definitely not qualified to hold an opinion on anything going on in the middle east.

Watching the news and scrolling social media in no way prepares me to understand the deep and complex issues of the region.

I was just curious about your perspective. Thanks for explaining.

14. Workaccount2 ◴[] No.43613175{6}[source]
>Thanks for explaining. I think the answer to your question lies in the fact that Hamas is not a regular army. They're fighting an army that has the most advanced weapons and tech on the planet, and they can't put a target on their back while moving around. This has been the case throughout history when the indigenous resistance fights a mighty colonial army.

I just don't see how that makes it ok to camouflage as civilians. If Hamas cannot take on Israel, then the war is lost and it's better to go to the table and take what you can get rather than let your whole population die while staving off the inevitable.

Japan was in a similar situation in WW2, where they armed the populace (men and women) and gave them basic instruction on how to fight. This was in preparation for a land invasion, and the emperor was ready to sacrifice as many civilians as it took to protect his empire.

But the bombs dropped, they went to the table (knowing they would get bent), and avoided mass death of Japanese civilian "soldiers".

replies(1): >>43615830 #
15. khaledh ◴[] No.43615830{7}[source]
> it's better to go to the table and take what you can get rather than let your whole population die while staving off the inevitable.

They did. Israel broke the ceasefire agreement for no reason.

16. za3faran ◴[] No.43628894{5}[source]
Remember when the israeli army wore women's clothing and attacked a hospital and committed atrocities in it?