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187 points r721 | 17 comments | | HN request time: 0.593s | source | bottom
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kvdveer ◴[] No.43599992[source]
As long as a substantial number of christians consider Israel a divine-ordained country, there will not be any repercussions for any crime they commit.

The Bible contains literal instructions for genocide, and many Christians bemoan anci nt Israel for not following those instructions to the letter.

replies(3): >>43600026 #>>43600099 #>>43601798 #
1. like_any_other ◴[] No.43600099[source]
Only 8% of Americans have a positive impression of Zionism [1]. Whatever is driving US support for Israel, it's not the will of the people.

[1] Figure 2, "What is your impression of Zionism?", https://www.brookings.edu/articles/how-do-americans-feel-abo...

replies(5): >>43600617 #>>43601126 #>>43601143 #>>43601535 #>>43601716 #
2. watwut ◴[] No.43600617[source]
Sure, but conservative Christians do have disproportionate influence on politics ... and they believe these.
replies(1): >>43601014 #
3. like_any_other ◴[] No.43601014[source]
Suppose that they do - why is this the only area where they have had such astounding success? The closest they've come elsewhere is bans on abortion, where their victories are limited and intermittent, and the occasional transgender bathroom ban. The persecution of Christians abroad [1] doesn't even show up on their radar.

From this behavior, one would think support for Israel was the central pillar of the Christian faith.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Christians_in_t...

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4. sir0010010 ◴[] No.43601126[source]
This survey also shows ~80% of those polled to have an impression of one of:

* neither positive or negative

* don't know, or

* unfamiliar

If you look for surveys that ask about support for Israel directly, you will get significantly different numbers.

5. 7952 ◴[] No.43601143[source]
Its more complicated isn't it. People can be favourable towards one side in a conflict without fully identifying with their goals. And they can be sympathetic to people without fully supporting the nation or its institutions.

My guess is that the global political elite are a small social circle of wealthy powerful people. And that if an action is socially acceptable within that group then it has little cost in the real world. It is not a conspiracy or anything or an evil plot. It is just how people behave.

6. throw310822 ◴[] No.43601535[source]
In any case, it doesn't matter much. Of course in a democracy if you want something to happen you need to convince a lot of people (maybe not a majority but a lot). It's called propaganda. The fact that there's a lot of people that are enthusiastic about advancing the interests of another country is probably just the effect of some very effective propaganda originating from the actual beneficiaries.
replies(1): >>43607719 #
7. throwaway01536 ◴[] No.43601577{3}[source]
> From this behavior, one would think support for Israel was the central pillar of the Christian faith

For some, it is their primary goal. They think the end times are near, and by escalating the conflict they hope to make it happen as soon as possible.

They support Israel because the Bible says that those that bless Israel is blessed. On the other hand, they think only some Christians will survive the end times, so any non-christians (jews included) that are hurt, doesn't really matter. It's just collateral damage in a holy war.

It is one of the reasons why this conflict is so special for many.

This is not a conspiracy, but a minority of evangelical Christians with access to lots of money that pays lobbyists. They don't even try to hide it, and you can read about this from traditional news sources that has covered this for years.

8. nailer ◴[] No.43601716[source]
Herzl’s zionism is simply a belief that Jewish people should buy land and live in their ancestral homeland.

He wasn’t orthodox, didn’t believe God promised anything to anyone, didn’t speak Hebrew, but after the Dreyfuss affair (usual racist fake accusation BS) started to petition Rothschild (he was denied) and then other wealthier Jewish people with more success to start buying sand dunes and swamplands for Jewish families to return to Israel.

Herzl is definitely worth either reading or just studying for HN, the books are short and to the point, they dispel a lot of myths one gets from the media, and starting a country is a fairly ambitious project worth studying for any founder.

replies(2): >>43601826 #>>43609520 #
9. ImJamal ◴[] No.43601732{3}[source]
> From this behavior, one would think support for Israel was the central pillar of the Christian faith.

It is for dispensationalists. Of course, that heresy only popped up a couple hundred years ago and goes against what Christians have always believed, that the Church is the New Israel, not some modern state.

10. stormfather ◴[] No.43601826[source]
He also said that Jews should only hire other Jews.

If I was a politician that advocated Britain is for the British, and that whites should only hire other whites so that minorities have to leave due to economic pressure, how would you view me?

Or is this wrong?

replies(1): >>43601963 #
11. nailer ◴[] No.43601963{3}[source]
My own personal beliefs aren’t really relevant to the topic.

To answer the question anyway: Jewish and British and French and Arabs and Ghanaians and Balinese may want to hire their own, but there’s a certain point where the rubber hits the road and you may find someone outside the group with the skills or contacts you need.

replies(1): >>43602173 #
12. stormfather ◴[] No.43602173{4}[source]
My point is that you're presenting Herzl as if all he wanted was to legally purchase land for a Jewish state. But you left out that he advocated systemic racial discrimination to coerce another group to leave. I'm trying to ask if this would color your previously neutral and benign characterization of him.
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13. nailer ◴[] No.43603168{5}[source]
> he advocated systemic racial discrimination to coerce another group to leave

When? You haven't made that point, only discussed that Herzl said Jewish people should hire other Jewish people, which is common among all groups of people, fairly benign and was almost universal in the past.

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14. stormfather ◴[] No.43604686{6}[source]
That is by definition systemic racial discrimination. This isn't hard to understand.
replies(1): >>43605770 #
15. nailer ◴[] No.43605770{7}[source]
As mentioned in the comment you wrote your reply to, this is incredibly common, was even more common at the time, and it’s not at all clear that the intent was to make others leave - Herzl’s main writings about Arabs living in the area was to make them rich.
16. fmxsh ◴[] No.43607719[source]
Reception of propaganda is contrary to the essence of democracy, relying on a rational citizen able to critically weight different viewpoints and cut trough the worst of bias where propaganda thrives.

In a democracy, propaganda works, because of weak democratic implementation. If democracy is an ideal able to be realized, it would protect against that.

The burden is on the shoulders of the citizens, culture and state. Without education in the sense of critical thinking, intelligence isn't developed enough to establish democratic structures.

17. volleyball ◴[] No.43609520[source]
>Herzl’s zionism is simply a belief that Jewish people should buy land and live in their ancestral homeland.

Right...

"We shall try to spirit the penniless [Arab] population across the border by procuring employment for it in the transit countries, while denying it any employment in our country ... The removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly." - diaryentry from Herzl's diary 1895

> He wasn’t orthodox, didn’t believe God promised anything to anyone

Back then, most of the Orthodox were anti-zionists.

I dont know why you brought up Herzl anyway, since he died in 1905 and was not as representative of the modern state of Israel as compared to its other founders like David Ben-Gurion, David Ben-Gurion, and Yitzhak Shamir.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/oct/03/israel1